America has a Nativism problem, not a “Muslim Problem”

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Does America Have a Muslim Problem?

…Islamophobia in the U.S. doesn’t approach levels seen in other countries where Muslims are in a minority. But to be a Muslim in America now is to endure slings and arrows against your faith — not just in the schoolyard and the office but also outside your place of worship and in the public square, where some of the country’s most powerful mainstream religious and political leaders unthinkingly (or worse, deliberately) conflate Islam with terrorism and savagery. In France and Britain, politicians from fringe parties say appalling things about Muslims, but there’s no one in Europe of the stature of a former House Speaker who would, as Newt Gingrich did, equate Islam with Nazism. [Time]

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p>My answer to Bobby Ghosh, the author of Time’s cover story, is “no.” America, despite all the ugly rhetoric of the past several weeks, is not Islamaphobic. Instead, I would say that America is currently in the grips of yet another episode of ugly Nativism, this particular episode fueled by power hungry ideologues that have access to methods of mass communication not present during former episodes of Nativism in our country: the 24 hour media cycle and the internet. “Islamaphobia” is not what afflicts our nation. It is merely a symptom of the underlying malady which, like chronic malaria, can flair up and leave the collective “us,” the American people, weak until treated. It will never be totally eradicated. Treating the problem by adopting an “enlightened” us vs.”ignorant” them mentality will make things worse, as will appeasement (see examples of the latter here, here, and here).

Before continuing the discussion it is important to understand what “Nativism” is in the context of American history. History has always been my favorite subject because historians are like fortune tellers. Everything that has happened will likely happen again. Let’s start with the most basic place to learn about the history of Nativism in our country. You guessed it, Wikipedia:

Nativism favors the interests of certain established inhabitants of an area or nation as compared to claims of newcomers or immigrants. It may also include the re-establishment or perpetuation of such individuals or their culture.

Nativism typically means opposition to immigration or efforts to lower the political or legal status of specific ethnic or cultural groups because the groups are considered hostile or alien to the natural culture, and it is assumed that they cannot be assimilated. [Wikipedia]

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p>The table of contents on the Wiki page alone tells you the story:

* 1.1.1 Anti-Catholic nativism in the 19th century
* 1.1.2 Anti-German nativism
* 1.1.3 Anti-Chinese nativism
* 1.1.4 Anti-Catholic nativism
* 1.1.5 20th- and 21st-century anti-immigration movements
* 1.1.6 Language… [Wikipedia]

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Throughout American history, established inhabitants have been manipulated whenever ideologues or politicians decide to use fear of the “other” to win power or wealth for themselves. It was bad enough when it was just ideologues and politicians creating mischief. To that add the modern media, which perpetuates and amplifies the mischief to make money by attracting viewers/readers.

The current target of Nativist anger in our country includes Muslims and Mexicans as its largest subsets. The target this time around is an umbrella group that I will call the “Global American.” The Global American “thinks he/she is better” than the “established” American. The Global American has traveled often outside of America, and having seen the struggle abroad has some misguided empathy for those that may want to come here for work, even if they may have illegally cut in line to do so. Even when English is the second language for the Global American, he/she can spell in English better that the established American. The Global America, like President Obama, read Fareed Zakaria’s Post-American World and belives America is in decline. The Global American is a Manchurian Candidate, just waiting to turn on any established American that hasn’t stockpiled five guns. The Global American is making money in America and then funneling it off to fund the United Nations so it can establish a world order with America in its proper place.

Think I’m off the mark and that it really is only Muslims and Mexicans that need to worry? Well, let’s take a look at another headline that may have gone unnoticed this week while everyone was concentrating on the “Ground Zero Mosque.”

As Russians Move In and Flourish, Resentment Follows

Staten Island’s Russians — even if many are really from Ukraine or other lands of the former Soviet Union — number 22,288 by the most recent census estimates, or more than 50,000 by their own estimates, which would make Russians one-tenth of the island’s population. As immigrant strivers, they moved to Staten Island for the affordable houses, good schools, suburban feel and pace, even a boardwalk in South Beach that can match Brighton Beach’s in length, if not in ambience.

But they have not escaped the ethnic encounters often associated with urban migrations, including grumbling by natives that the newcomers are taking over. This has surfaced most vividly as a result of a Russian-run community and day care center’s plan for a new 10,000-square-foot building that it promises would be for all Staten Islanders.

It will become another “Russian thing,” one skeptic, Joanne Bennetti, a 60-ish retired beautician, said at a meeting of the South Beach Civic Association. “You don’t know what it’s like to feel like a foreigner in your own neighborhood.” [NYTimes]

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p>Ahhh, I can see it now. Some blowhard on Faux News will make reference to the recently busted spy ring and then ask the question, a rhetorical one naturally: do we really want these Russians/Ukrainians (what’s the difference again?) who have recently spied on us and helped the Iranians go nuclear, settle so close to…lower Manhattan?

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p>Meanwhile, also in New York, the Global American was busy doing their global thing:

When Maureen Mazumder enrolled her daughter, Sabrina, in a Spanish singalong class a year ago, she hoped it would be the first step in helping her learn a second language. But the class did not seem to do the trick, so Ms. Mazumder decided to hire a baby sitter, one who would not only care for her daughter but also speak to her exclusively in Spanish.

Ms. Mazumder, whose daughter is nearly 3, has company. Although a majority of parents seeking caretakers for their children still seek ones who will speak to their children in English, popular parenting blogs and Web sites indicate that a noticeable number of New York City parents are looking for baby sitters and nannies to help their children learn a second language, one they may not speak themselves.[NYTimes]

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p>I am plain afraid of what will happen when the Nativists realize that the Hindu members of the Asian American Hotel Owners Association are trying to make the Gita, “the Hindu Bible” a standard in all their hotels.

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p>In no way am I trying to say that Muslims should not be both concerned and saddened by what is happening right now. On the contrary, I am saying that none of us non-Muslims should for a second believe that we will be spared or that we need not concern ourselves because we are not the immediate targets of this ugly behavior by some politicians and media organizations. This isn’t just the Muslim and Latino community’s problem. This is the Global American’s problem too. Shit, some are even going after Christiane Amanpour!:

Without having the courage to do so explicitly, [Tom] Shales links (and even bolsters) charges of her “anti-Israel” bias to the fact that her father is Iranian and she grew up in Iran. He sandwiches that biographical information about Iran in between describing accusations against her of bias against Israel and her defensive insistence that she’s capable of objectivity when reporting on the region.

So here we finally have a prominent journalist with a half-Persian background — in an extremely homogenized media culture which steadfastly excludes from Middle Eastern coverage voices from that region — and her national origin is immediately cited as a means of questioning her journalistic objectivity and even opposing her as a choice to host This Week (can someone from Iran with an Iranian father possibly be objective???). Could the double standard here be any more obvious or unpleasant?… [Salon]

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p>Very similar to how Mike Huckabee went after President Obama:

“His worldview is dramatically different than any president, Republican or Democrat, we’ve had,” said former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee, a potential 2012 presidential candidate, who attributes conservative fear not just to Obama’s effort to expand the federal government but to the president’s overall governing philosophy.

“He grew up more as a globalist than an American,” Huckabee said. “To deny American exceptionalism is in essence to deny the heart and soul of this nation.” [Politico]

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p>Enough talk about the present for a minute. How about some images from our nation’s past? Here are some political cartoons that will hopefully give American Muslims a little bit of comfort in knowing that they are not alone. Previous Americans, including the ancestors of some of the ones behaving so badly now, have faced similar:

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May 8, 1875

This cartoon is one of Thomas Nast’s most famous. It depicts Roman Catholic clergy as crocodiles invading America’s shore to devour the nation’s schoolchildren–white, black, American Indian, and Chinese. (The white children are prominent in front, the rest are in the background.) The public school building stands as a fortress against the threat of theocracy, but it has been bombarded and flies Old Glory upside down to signal distress. [Link]

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p>I love the political cartoon above because it captures so many biases and contradictions at once. At the time, America had a “Catholic Problem.” Seeing the clergy-gators come out of the dirty Ganges River implies that Americans did not think too highly of India either. What is equally striking is that the public schools in 1875 were apparently regarded as bastions of secularism. Today, public schools are under assault in places like Kansas and Texas for not beging Christian enough.

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p>Here is another anti-Catholic cartoon where the message is clear and ominous:

“The Shadow in Our Schools” (1890)

At the time of the great wave of immigration from the Catholic countries of Europe, there was an ongoing undercurrent of resentment about the “Romanization” of the public school system. Elsewhere on this site we have “Puck” and “Judge” cartoons with a more mainstream (i.e. Protestant) view on the subject, but the truth is that in their views on the Pope they weren’t much different than the Atheists, [Link]

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p>The website where I found the above cartoon is full of all sorts of anti-immigrant gems. I highly recommend visiting it.

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p>Here is a cartoon which shows a fear of both white Irish and Chinese-American immigrants at once:

“The Great Fear of the Period That Uncle Sam May Be Swallowed By Foreigners, Problem Solved” c. 1865

This is a one panel, three scene cartoon showing, in the first scene, an Irish man with the head of Uncle Sam in his mouth and a Chinese man with the feet of Uncle Sam in his mouth. In the second scene they consume Uncle Sam, and in the third the Chinese man consumes the Irish man; on the landscape in the distant background are many railroads. [Link]

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p>So what am I advocating? Under no circumstances should we battle the invective we have been seeing with mere contempt or an air of superiority. Americans aren’t bad. Turning inward would be disastrous. Polls saying Americans are anti-Muslim don’t mean as much given what else the polls say. However, the individuals that manipulate the public, and the media that assists in that manipulation, are bad. They should be fought with logic and reason and their hypocrisy should be laid bare. Call out bullshit whenever and wherever you see it. And don’t appease ideologues. It is much better to improve the discourse like NJ’s Republican Governor Chris Christie did then to fold like Ami Berra. In the coming years gays and abortion will be on the outs as wedge issues. Nativism will be in:

But the current tribalistic turn on the right — declaring, in essence, that the First Amendment shouldn’t apply to Muslims, and the Fourteenth Amendment shouldn’t apply to Latinos — has real promise as the next long chapter in the culture war. There will always be people who have different skin colors, different religious creeds, and the gall to believe they can be Americans too, for the right to get mad at. [Politico]

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p>A reader of Andrew Sullivan’s blog at The Atlantic sent him a note that I believe perfectly captures how Muslims will eventually triumph in the same way that Catholics, the Irish and the Chinese all did:

My husband became a US citizen on July 23rd. I couldn’t be more proud and thankful that he has chosen to be an American. I just get the feeling that so much of the anti-Muslim sentiment in this country is due to lack of experience and engagement with Muslims. Everywhere we have lived in this country, whether through chance meetings or through his business, my husband has left a positive impression of Muslims with our customers and new friends. This level of engagement is vital to changing perceptions, including the perceptions of some of my own family members. Of all our customers (he has a moving company), it is military men and women who are the most open, accepting, and excited to talk to a Pashtun American. [Link]

100 thoughts on “America has a Nativism problem, not a “Muslim Problem””

  1. “I love the political cartoon above because it captures so many biases and contradictions at once. At the time, America had a “Catholic Problem.” Seeing the clergy-gators come out of the dirty Ganges River implies that Americans did not think too highly of India either. What is equally striking is that the public schools in 1875 were apparently regarded as bastions of secularism. Today, public schools are under assault in places like Kansas and Texas for not being Christian enough. “

    Just wanted to point out, historically, the public school system WAS Protestant, not secular (definitely not “bastions of secularism”). Catholics started their own schools because if they sent their kids to public schools, the children would be forced to hear Protestant teaching.

    A great documentary series on the history of public schools in America: http://www.pbs.org/kcet/publicschool/

  3. Totally off topic. But, SM, did you guys think of using a third party comment system like ‘Disqus’? It has a lot of features that help process the comments. http://disqus.com/

  4. “Islamophobia” is a very problematic term. It suggests that a prosletysing religion, that makes total truth claims, and asserts divine authority over men and women, with embedded misogynistic practices, and has active tendencies to foment hatred against the non Muslim ‘other’ should be beyond criticism.

    I just don’t buy it.

  5. “History has always been my favorite subject because historians are like fortune tellers.”

    Verily. Even certain physics disciplines agree that the past is as fluid and vague as the future. Those who seek to repeat history must control its dissemination.

  6. Abhi, while I agree with your diagnosis of the disease, I’m not so sure I share your optimism about the prognosis. Yoga Fire brings up a good point: Histories like How the Irish Became White indicates a lot of methods that are either unpalatable or unavailable (or both) to today’s ‘outsiders’, involving the back-up of a large and cohesive critical mass, the formation of gangs, and using the status of other groups as a wedge issue against the mainstream. There was also a lot of frequently painful and involuntary assimilation out of economic necessity. Generations of intermarriage was also a big factor, and I don’t know what the stats are on intermarriage in the Muslim community—maybe Razib can help us out? But generally, I’m worried that the ‘tried and true’ methods won’t work for much longer. History may have periodic behavior, but that doesn’t mean their isn’t some sort of damping or pumping going on.

  7. and I don’t know what the stats are on intermarriage in the Muslim community—maybe Razib can help us out?

    i’ll dig. anecdotally i’ve been told they’re VERY high in the black community, where islam is basically now a pretty normal religion (albeit, one practiced only by a small minority on the order of a 2% or so). it is not well known that famous black americans such as shaquille o’neal or busta rhymes identify as muslim because it isn’t too controversial, and they often don’t dress any different from non-muslim black americans. often their children may not identify as muslim.

    in regards to intermarriage, haven’t seen data, but i saw this: For the most part, Muslim Americans say it is acceptable for a Muslim to marry a non-Muslim, even though Islamic law prohibits a Muslim woman – but not a man – from marrying outside the faith. Overall, 62% believe it is “okay” for a Muslim to marry a non-Muslim, while 24% say it is unacceptable; 11% volunteered that it depends. More than eight-in-10 (84%) Muslim Americans with a relatively low level of religious commitment say there is nothing significantly wrong with interfaith marriages, compared with just 45% of highly religious U.S. Muslims. In addition, many more men (70%) than women (54%) think it is okay to marry a non-Muslim.

    http://pewresearch.org/assets/pdf/muslim-americans.pdf

    the main issue that i see is that muslims who are “hooked in” to the “ummah” are going to have problems. muslims who do what the catholics and jews (and buddhists), and become operational protestants, are not going to have any long term problems. of course there’s the whole israel jew, where muslims have natural sympathies, and the rest of america tends to lean more or less to israel. if i was a muslim marketing expert i’d try to figure out an alliance with mainline protestants who are open to to a pro-palestinian stance and create an organized anti-zionist christian faction to match the pro-zionist evangelical one. but i don’t think the muslims have the capability to do such a thing right now.

  8. one distinction between then and now is that then was not explicitly multiculturalist, and now is explicitly multiculturalist. as i noted above the disjunction between liberal democracy and roman catholicism and issues in the 19th century produced ‘the americanist controversy’ (which had its analog among french catholics who accepted the legitimacy of the french republic). some western muslims seem to be doing something similar, but, 1) their relative numbers are much smaller, 2) there’s less breathing the down the necks on the part of the western cultural elite, who accept muslim difference more than anglo-protestants accepted catholic difference. i think that the model of the jews is better for muslims because of small numbers, and the orthopraxic nature of the religion. american islam will have ‘arrived’ when the muslim equivalent of the reform movement emerges, which offers up a religious alternative to ‘orthodoxy/orthopraxy’ and secularity.

  10. Great post!

    I fully agree with this:

    Treating the problem by adopting an “enlightened” us vs.”ignorant” them mentality will make things worse, as will appeasement (see examples of the latter here, here, and here).

    I disagree with this:

    America, despite all the ugly rhetoric of the past several weeks, is not Islamaphobic. Instead, I would say that America is currently in the grips of yet another episode of ugly Nativism, this particular episode fueled by power hungry ideologues that have access to methods of mass communication not present during former episodes of Nativism in our country: the 24 hour media cycle and the internet. “Islamaphobia” is not what afflicts our nation. It is merely a symptom of the underlying malady which, like chronic malaria, can flair up and leave the collective “us,” the American people, weak until treated.

    To continue your analogy: symptoms are part of a disease and real, even if they’re not the underlying cause. Ask anyone with malaria whether the fever is real or not! It’s the same in this case – the Islamophobia is a manifestation of a broader nativism, but that makes it no less real. America, though less than Europe, is very Islamophobic, right now. It’s part of/taps into a broader xenophobia, but that doesn’t mean it’s not real in and of itself.

  11. Nativism can be overcome. Great post. I love the pics.

    (I’m still getting used to this whole signing in to comment thing….I wonder how I can continue to use my typical nickname “demondoll”)

  12. Just a few comments, I guess they don’t have to do with the main topic but: about abortion/birth control: it is allowed in Islam (although I think abortion is mainly used if health is a concern).. About practicing Islam in America (I’m Canadian): In Islam you’re supposed to follow the rules of the country you’re living in… etc (I would add that it also says to accept and tolerate all those who practice different religions but I think you get the point). The people you have to worry about are those who are misinterpreting/distorting the religion in the first place, but I guess it would be difficult to ferret those people out.

    As for nativism, it’s pretty much a part of American culture (and I guess every country’s culture?). The difference here: They discriminate against new groups, than create laws to protect them from discrimination. Then when the fear mongering starts, they repeal laws and create new ones so that you’re only safe if you’re part of the majority. I don’t know if any of you have read “America on Film: Representing Race, Class, Gender,and Sexuality at the Movies”, it’s a great book but its just really frustrating to read about minorities being attacked over and over again.

    Also some clips from Jon Stewart about the mosque situation in NY. I don’t know if you can watch the clips from these links in the States, I had to find them on the Canadian site, but they’re pretty interesting.

    http://watch.thecomedynetwork.ca/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart/full-episodes/the-daily-show-with-jon-stewart—august-19-2010/#clip337023

    http://www.thecomedynetwork.ca/Displayblog.aspx?bpid=16d46416-8330-4ae0-b5b9-39b86da82f80

  13. I don’t know if any of you watch the HBO series Tru Blood but the Vampire Spokesperson sure sounds a lot like CAIR.

    And in the end, except for this one Vampire, indeed the Vampires were as savage and ruthless as people think they are.

    But oh, no, can’t be going around with your vampophibic views or you will seem “intolerant”. You just need to respect their “lifestyle choice”.

  14. And to bring things up to date:

    America, despite all the ugly rhetoric of the past several weeks, is not Islamaphobic

    No longer at all describable as mainly rhetoric (if it ever was)…the hateful rhetoric and the violence that accompanies it are both out in the open now.

    http://www.nytwa.org/membership/events-and-actions/180-ahmedsharifattackedpr http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/queens/drunk_desecration_at_mosque_fA7FZKYh59hx3Bjika6UGN

    The guy in the taxi who allegedly tried to kill the driver didn’t ask ‘Are you an immigrant?’…he asked ‘Are you a Muslim?’

  15. So the taxi passenger somehow is representative of all Americans, while the Fort Hood shooter while killing 13 people screaming “Allahu Akbar ” is not to be taken to be representative of all Muslims. If the actions of some Muslims are to be taken by people as the act of the individual, and not the group, why isn’t the same rule applied for the actions of some non-Muslim Americans ? Yes, the hypocrisy and double standards are also out in the open when it comes to such incidents.

    • ground zero mosque opposers: doesn’t it stab you in the heart, as the taxi cab driver was in the neck? Peaceful Americans, pls refudiate.

      (137 characters)

      • Ok Rahul I get it, you are such a warrior of the blogs with your slick “repartee”. How old are you ? Not worth wasting my time on you any further.

  16. I’m not going to feed the trolls. I’m not going to feed the trolls. Less than a month till Sept. 22. Not going to feed the trolls. Deep breath.

    Dr. Anonymous, that first link is really tragic. Attacks on Taxi drivers go beyond mere hate violence–they’re an attack on the order & infrastructure of the city.

    The second link, however, doesn’t seem to go with the discussion: it’s unfortunate, but I don’t think anything in the article indicates Muslim-specific–it sounds like a really drunk guy who may have even been going through some terrible personal tragedy. It’s gross and sad, but I don’t think it’s significant of any large trend of inciting violence.

    How terrible is it of me that I want to make a comment about how the rugs really held the room together. . .sorry!

  17. Eh. LocknLoad has a point. You can’t get pissed off at “America” for the actions of a specific individual while at the same time criticizing Americans for reacting to whole groups of people based on the actions of specific individuals. Too often people tend to make moralistic arguments where they divide the world into “oppressor” and “oppressee” and uncritically throw their lot with the pre-designated “oppressee” rather than making ethical decisions based on any actual consistently applied logic.

    As for the Taxi cab stabber, supposedly he had just gotten back from Afghanistan where he developed some pretty negative perspectives on Muslims. The guy was part of some interfaith organization that sent him there too (although they now seem to be in PR mode and are distancing themselves from him as much as possible). Something fucked up must have happened to him while he was over there. Being a documentary filmmaker embedded with the army it’s likely he was in the heart of Taliban territory.

  18. @Saheli – Thanks for your comment on the second link. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/08/26/omar-rivera-urinates-on-m_n_695461.html – the story in the media now is that it’s not a race incident but ‘just’ urination in a place of worship, and built off of the police account. So I’m not sure whether it fits or not (depends how much you trust the New York police 😉 But I agree that it’s worth trying to find out what happened before jumping to conclusions.

    @LockNLoad & YogaFire – I don’t think that this is necessarily the appropriate place to have what I anticipate is going to be a wide ranging argument around a strong disagreement about how acts, rhetoric, discourse, media, wars, votes, etc. all go together. But against my better judgment, I will anyway because it’s an important topic right now.

    Any comment about ‘America’ inherently overgeneralizes if it’s applied and at least partly in the realm of fantasy if it’s attempting to describe people or political culture or whatever. Whether positive or negative.

    That was not my point however. My idea is not that anyone should be ‘blamed’ for anything but that xenophobia and racism are now overtly and violently manifesting themselves as islamophobia in the United States and in American culture and by a lot of people in the United States. It’s a multifaceted thing where inciteful speech leads to inciteful protest which leads to unstable people engaging in violence. As with understanding terrorism, it needs to be understood in terms of social science, not moralism. I agree that the way to argue with fundamentalists of any stripe is not to engage in a reactive fundamentalism that blames them.

    You can see this how this cumulatively happened over the past decades in politics (the far right / Palin / Beck / Anne Coulter, the sekrit Muslim claims, etc. and their enablers like Harry Reid) you can see this in policy (Special Registration and other targeted deportations, the wars in afghanistan, iraq, yemen, pakisan, etc.), you can see it in popular culture with countless shows like 24, sex and the city 2, etc. This was in evidence even before the 2001 attacks. it’s the self-fulfilling, self-reinforcing prophecy of ‘clash of civilizations’ helped along by dip$hits who won’t stand up to it (regardless of what ‘side’ they are on). And now it is real.

    I’m not saying Islamophobia is an exclusively American phenomenon – if anything, I’d say it’s more widespread and gross in Europe although perhaps(?) less violent there. However, in the United States, I think that there’s been a significant turning point in the last few weeks with the way this mosque debate has been used and as a result the collective character assassination of Muslims and Islam by the U.S. government and by the American media is now showing up as direct, overt, and unmistakable racist violence (which unsurprisingly is engaged in by people who are somewhat unstable, as is always the case – unless it’s state violence in which case they’re soldiers and sometimes also somewhat unstable).

    At this point, denying that Islamophobia in a social issue in the United States is imo either denial or appeasement. And I feel visceral anger at the slicing of someone’s throat, but if I had to pin the ‘personal responsibility’ on someone, I would be more likely to look at Glenn Beck, George Bush, Barack Obama, Harry Reid, Rupert Murdoch, Laura Ingraham, Sean Hannity, etc etc etc than I would at someone who almost definitely (by definition) has mental ill health. Because they know better 😉

    • That was such a one sided answer couched in so much text… What about the incident from some years ago where the Pakistani American shot up a Jewish Community center and cold bloodedly killed a pregnant woman ? He announced “I’m a Muslim American; I’m angry at Israel” . You can read the rest here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seattle_Jewish_Federation_shooting So are you going to say that once again this is all the fault of Glenn Beck, George Bush et al ? Are all these Muslim attackers just mentally ill people ? You are so quick to give them the benefit of that analysis (I guess you do claim to be a doctor) , yet will not afford the same for the taxi passenger and the urinator. There is obviously no point in having a rational centered discussion about this with you since you have already decided that no matter what, American is guilty and Americans are to blame for everything, and all atrocities carried out by others are also America’s fault. You are guilty of denial and appeasement to the extreme in that regard based on your other posts in the same vein. It doesn’t matter what the subject is, America is always guilty. Have fun in this soon to be echo chamber.

      • Well you could have just read the beginning 😉

        “My idea is not that anyone should be ‘blamed’ for anything but that xenophobia and racism are now overtly and violently manifesting themselves as islamophobia in the United States and in American culture and by a lot of people in the United States. It’s a multifaceted thing where inciteful speech leads to inciteful protest which leads to unstable people engaging in violence. As with understanding terrorism, it needs to be understood in terms of social science, not moralism. I agree that the way to argue with fundamentalists of any stripe is not to engage in a reactive fundamentalism that blames them.”

        Or this:

        “I’m not saying Islamophobia is an exclusively American phenomenon – if anything, I’d say it’s more widespread and gross in Europe although perhaps(?) less violent there.”

        Or this:

        “Any comment about ‘America’ inherently overgeneralizes if it’s applied and at least partly in the realm of fantasy if it’s attempting to describe people or political culture or whatever. Whether positive or negative.”

        just fyi, i have a 3 strikes policy before I start ignoring random misreadings of what I actually write 😉 As one example: “Are all these Muslim attackers just mentally ill people ? You are so quick to give them the benefit of that analysis (I guess you do claim to be a doctor) , yet will not afford the same for the taxi passenger and the urinator.” I actually did the opposite of that. I gave all people who engage in violent racist acts in the United States the benefit of the doubt of not being fully in control of their actions. It has more to do with viewing people as human beings (which i do) than practicing medicine (which I don’t – I just have a good supervillain nickname and read $hit).

  19. Dr. Anonymous, Do you deny the historical practice of Muslim conquerors building ‘victory mosques’ over the rubble of their conquests? I think that’s what is true in the otherwise quite xenophobic criticisms of the Cordoba centre. But still, why do you implicitly value that historical tradition at zero? That bothers me, as an American–I don’t want another mosque built over what some muslims view as defeated hindus, buddhists, christians, or jews (like on the Temple Mount for god’s sake).

  20. “At this point, denying that Islamophobia in a social issue in the United States is imo either denial or appeasement. And I feel visceral anger at the slicing of someone’s throat, but if I had to pin the ‘personal responsibility’ on someone, I would be more likely to look at Glenn Beck, George Bush, Barack Obama, Harry Reid, Rupert Murdoch, Laura Ingraham, Sean Hannity, etc etc etc than I would at someone who almost definitely (by definition) has mental ill health. Because they know better ;)”

    Well, you’re still in LocknLoad’s conundrum. If you can point fingers at Beck and Bam in regards to this act of. (lets just call it terrorism to make things easy)… then its unclear why its so wrong for the right to point fingers at individuals other than al quada in regards to islamic terrorism.

    After all, there’s no shortage of incendeiary (but non-violent) words, emanating from the left and from muslims, aimed at Americans, jews, and other known targets of terrorists. Why doesn’t his create an atmosphere of hatred enabling violence?

    • If you can point fingers at Beck and Bam in regards to this act of. (lets just call it terrorism to make things easy)… then its unclear why its so wrong for the right to point fingers at individuals other than al quada in regards to islamic terrorism. After all, there’s no shortage of incendeiary (but non-violent) words, emanating from the left and from muslims, aimed at Americans, jews, and other known targets of terrorists. Why doesn’t his create an atmosphere of hatred enabling violence?

      Firstly, I wouldn’t call it terrorism. It’s an incendiary catch all term that masks everything important under a veneer of seething rage.

      That out of the way, I would and have done what you’re suggesting (e.g. to an argentinian person expressing what i saw as anti-semitism). I’m not perfect at it, but I do genuinely think promoting racism is not a one-sided thing, and there’s more equality in discourse than in bombs – that’s why i made reference to people on all ‘sides.’ I have very little patience with ultrachauvinism of any kind, but I do understand that different people have different levels of power and are willing to make and are able to make different kinds of choices about these issues. So that’s why I would hold Glenn Beck a lot more morally responsible for being a fascist out of choice than I would morally blame the kid who got traumatized and tried to kill someone (as opposed to addressing the behavior and feeling disgust and anger at them).

      I focused on islamophobia in the United States here because a) i know about it; b) the forum is more appropriate to that given the level of vitriol and/or basic racism against muslims and islam that has been expressed here in the past and it deals primarily with South Asian American vantage points c) that is the topic of this post and d) i was addressing a specific point in the post (how to understand, in an American context, islamophobia in the context of broader xenophobia/nativism).

      Separately, I care because I’m a New Yorker and I’m pissed that my city/region has been appropriated to promote the antithesis of what this city stands for. I find it disgusting and abhorrent that there are people at high levels of power (whether cultural or political) actively promoting islamophobia in the United States (Which is a domestic political issue in the United States and ties Islamophobia to the other trends like nativism and other things).

      I also haven’t personally encountered a lot of Muslim people who are making ultrachauvinistic claims – maybe due to the circles I travel in, or maybe the paranoid consciousness of ‘the west’ is clueless. So I see no need to interject, particularly not being Muslim. If I were living in Indonesia or Kazakhstan and encountered a lot of bias (of whatever kind), I might feel differently.

  21. “What about the incident from some years ago where the Pakistani American shot up a Jewish Community center and cold bloodedly killed a pregnant woman ? He announced “I’m a Muslim American; I’m angry at Israel” …So are you going to say that once again this is all the fault of Glenn Beck, George Bush et al ?”

    well, locknload, whats your position?

    Do you only hold the killer morally responsible here or do you look at the larger culure…ie the bigotry in Islamic communities, the anti-semitism emanating form the left, the unhinged anti-Israeli rhetoric coming from various sources, etc.

    Are those relevant topics for discussion or not?

  22. Yes, this is clearly an example of ‘Muslim conquerors’ building a ‘victory mosque’ over a ‘conquest’. Presumably the conquest being Burlington coat factory?

  23. “Presumably the conquest being Burlington coat factory?”

    Why Burlington coat factory? Isn’t it the World Trade Center?

      • Dr. A, the 2-blocks point is a tired talking point. The point is, they’re trying to build the victory mosque as close to Ground Zero as possible. Are you familiar with victory mosques in, say, Indian, Jewish, or Spanish history?

  24. “I’m a New Yorker and I’m pissed that my city/region has been appropriated to promote the antithesis of what this city stands for.” Surveys can be iffy, but the latest polls have a significant number (58% in July) of NYers opposing the move. http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/general_politics/august_2010/many_more_now_following_mosque_controversy_and_don_t_like_it

    “If I were living in Indonesia or Kazakhstan and encountered a lot of bias (of whatever kind), I might feel differently.” You don’t have to live there to learn about the hatred in that part of the world. Just replace the names and places in your earlier long comment, and you’ve got a fairly accurate picture.

    If a sparklingly clean organization, not related to BJP, decides to build a temple / community center two blocks away from the biggest massacre site in Gujarat, I will respect their right to do so. But I will have little patience with their specious claims of building bridges.

    • I don’t have a problem with someone doubting claims of ‘building bridges’ or whatever. Those are things to be evaluated on the merits.

      What I would and do have a problem is starting with the assumption that any attempt by any ‘suspect’ disempowered group to engage in any kind of community activity needs to be policed, immediately, because it absolutely must be something along the lines of what the majority community is paranoid about. Usually, this seems to be followed by claims that the people in the disempowered group are not being sensitive, should be more deferential, and broadly speaking, should accept that they have second class status in the place they’re trying to live. And if they are not…coercion and force are used to make them comply (whether that’s legal maneuvers or deportation or massive media arguments or sheer violence).

      And, unsurprisingly, this generates a counterresponse in the ‘other’ side that is very similar. Trigger mistrust, breakdown of social interaction, and possibly violence.

  26. The current (relatively) negative outlook of western society towards Islam has many streams feeding the flow. No doubt that nativism and economic downturn has a part to play, and frankly bigoted individuals may latch on to the bandwagon, but the Muslim community must also accept a part of the responsibility for it’s own members contributing towards these negative sentiments and stereotypes. When faced with such circumstances, sensitivity and compromise is essential. In the case of the Cordoba initiative, the legal legitimacy was sound, but the sensitivity wasn’t. And people like the failed Canadian idol participant (Operation Samosa.. FTW!!) certainly don’t make life easier for those who just want to live a normal life, free from prejudice.

    • If the sensitivity was that unsound, why did the Republican Mayor of New York come out strongly in defense of the project? Why are other masjids being opposed in other parts of the United States, the entirety of Switzerland, various places in the UK, etc.? What exactly do you want Muslims to do that other people should not have to do? Stay home all day, dressed entirely in clothing chosen by Jack Straw and Sarkozy and pray to Jesus? Why are they being policed differently than everyone else is? And why was it okay for some of the same people in the American government that funded the islamists in Afghanistan in the 1980s to appropriate the entirety of New York city and the fact that a major act of violence happened there by holding the Republican National Convention in New York in 2004?

      Again, the point is not about Muslims vs. non Muslims – the point is about fundamentalists, whether Christian, Muslim, Hindu, or any other stripe, highjacking public debates, turning non issues into issues, leveraging those issues to directly or indirectly promote a variety of kinds of violence, and distracting anyone who consumes any media from actually substantive issues (e.g. that the size of the flooded area in pakistan was the size of the united kingdom and 20 million people or so were affected, that there’s very high unemployment in the united states, that global warming has led countries like the maldives to save money to move their entire populations, etc.).

      I mean, what is this $hit? Are you people serious?

  27. Dr. A, Yes, the ‘victory’ being commemorated is the destruction of the WTC, the largest buildings in NYC, not the purchase of the Burlington Coat Factory. That’s why this is deeply inappropriate even if legal.

  28. The Mosque developer Sharif El-Gamal has an interesting bio

    His most recent arrest was in 2005 for assault on a man he met while working as a waiter at Serafina Restaurant, who sublet an apartment from his brother. He reportedly punched the man, breaking his nose and cheekbone and spit on him. El-Gamal first said he didn’t hit the man, but arrest documents obtained by CBS 2 showed he later conceded “his face could have run into my hand.” Records showed El-Gamal also had trouble coming up with the $15,000 settlement reached in 2008, and had to pay interest . El-Gamal also has a number of other arrests on his record: -In 1990, he was arrested in Nassau County and pled guilty to disorderly conduct. -In 1992, he pled guilty in Nassau to DWI and paid a $350 fine. -In 1993, he pled guilty in Nassau to attempted petit larceny and paid a $100 fine. -In 1994, arrested for disorderly conduct in Manhattan. -In 1998, there was another Manhattan disorderly conduct arrest. -In 1999, yet another Manhattan disorderly conduct arrest. A potential problem for the mosque developer is a deposition he gave in the assault case in October 2007. When asked if he was ever convicted or pled guilty to a crime, El-Gamal replied “no.” http://newyork.cbslocal.com/2010/08/30/who-is-the-man-behind-the-ground-zero-mosque/

    Nice track record for a very high profile member the Muslim community trying to “build bridges”. “his face could have run into my hand.” Should make T shirts with that line.

  29. Meh LocknLoad; a developer’s just a big ass contracter. you can’t do that job without breaking a few bones. gotta grease the unions, deal with the mob, payoff the city, etc. it helps to have El-Gamal’s streetcred. didn’t you ever see rodney dangerfield in “back to school”? jeez

  30. Your response to the idea that most of the arguments against building a leisure centre / masjid are based on the fact that the developer has a record of disorderly conduct violations, has allegedly lied about his arrest record, has a DWI, etc? By this standard, several to many members of Congress should be prohibited from tithing or making donations and their churches, universities, and other institutions would be deemed ‘suspect’ and virtually all construction would cease in India.

    Sarah Palin and Glenn Beck at least have the courtesy to just be pretty transparent about their islamophobia and use of islamophobia for political ends, unlike your comment. Your comment has nothing to do with the content of the criticism I’m making of the drive to oppose the mosque, which is, again, that the objections are about someone building something Muslim, Muslim-sounding, or Muslim-looking near where the World Trade Centre was. The objections have had and will have nothing to do with the developer having a criminal record and it’s a farce to try to make this point to refute an argument about islamophobia. Your comment also omits entirely any recognition of the anti-muslim sentiment that’s being riled up to oppose the development, which presumably you think is not true? But then, if it is not true, then why the need for a vehement but offbase response to a criticism of islamophobia?

    As a result, it’s also wholly off the point of this post as I understood it, which was – is islamophobia in the United States distinct or can it be solely understood as a part of nativism?

    • Never said anything about the developer’s background being a reason to stop them from building anything they want , be it a community center or a circus. Just an observation that for a center that is trying to establish community outreach , it is a peculiar choice to have somebody with anger management issues and drunk driving on their record, both traits not conducive for good community relations, as the person of choice for the post. If his past dishonesty is any indication, how can they hope this project will be done satisfactorily ? If the Catholic Church or the VHP had chosen to have somebody with this guy’s background as a developer for a high profile community project would you be so “background neutral” in your response ? I doubt it given the slant you have. And we’re not talking about India in this thread. What people do in India is of no relevance to the NYC situation.

      • What people do in India is of no relevance to the NYC situation.

        Neither is this entire so-called debate.

  31. “The point is, they’re trying to build the victory mosque as close to Ground Zero as possible”

    Whats the best evidence of this intention?

    • “The point is, they’re trying to build the victory mosque as close to Ground Zero as possible”

      “Whats the best evidence of this intention?”

      The paranoid fantasies of fundamentalists don’t bother with things like ‘evidence.’

  32. This issue should cause Indians and persons of Indian origin to reflect a little. India is more progressive and enlightened at certain levels than the US. India possesses a rich, even noble heritage of acknowledging different, multiple religions, and in recognising them as legitimate paths or means to contemplate the divine. Whereas in the US, for the overwhelming majority of the last 200 years of its existence, there has been an emphasis on the Christian character of the country, and of the religion Christianity being the only truly legitimate one. This again would form part of America's 'nativist' problem.

    • Muslims in India have been present for centuries, how then could Muslims be a nativism problem? India has plenty of nativism problems, Biharis and Bengalis in Maharashtra just as an example. In fact most immigrant groups within the Indian border are not viewed positively. In Bangalore there is wide spread anger against immigrants from the northern part of the country, in the South they refuse to speak Hindi.

  33. The point is, that India has a long philosophical tradition of acknowledging different religions/philosophies as legitimate means to understand the divine, or life, if the divine does not figure into it. With the US, it’s been all “Only Jesus saves”. That in a big way explains American parochialism, ignorance and exclusivism.

    Whatever problems Indian states have with migrants now and then( explained largely because of poverty and competition for resources) by and large Indians accept migrants as integral parts of the community. Caustic remarks here and there notwithstanding.