Straight out of Euless, Texas (which it turns out borders DFW Airport and is kind of part of Dallas) comes this discouraging news video about alleged discrimination against South Asian Americans and Muslims:
A prominent national Muslim civil rights and advocacy organization today called on the U.S. Department of Housing and Urban Development (HUD) to investigate allegations that a Texas apartment complex had a policy of refusing to rent to Muslims or segregating them in buildings away from other tenants.
The Washington-based Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) called on HUD’s Office of Fair Housing and Equal Opportunity to determine whether StoneBridge at Bear Creek apartment complex in Euless, Texas, violated federal fair housing laws.
According to an investigative media report, former leasing agents for the complex say Muslims, whom managers referred to as “curry people,” were routinely refused apartments even when there were vacancies. The leasing agents said they were told by their supervisors that they could only rent to Muslims if they were all kept in two buildings of the 21-building complex. [Link]
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p>The one thing that is obvious from the story is that when it comes to even talking about discriminations, Muslims, South Asians, Arabs, etc. are often all conflated. Any shade of brown with a “funny” name or associated with “smelly” food falls into the same category.
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p>The folks at CAIR weren’t too surprised that this type of thing happens given some Gallup Center for Muslim Studies poll data from last month:
More than 4 in 10 Americans (43%) admit to feeling at least “a little” prejudice toward Muslims — more than twice the number who say the same about Christians (18%), Jews (15%) and Buddhists (14%). The findings are based on a new Gallup Center for Muslim Studies report, “Religious Perceptions in America: With an In-Depth Analysis of U.S. Attitudes Toward Muslims and Islam,” released Thursday. [Link]
That being said, if these allegations turn out to be true it is encouraging that these two women were willing to stand up and blow the whistle on such practices. As for the Curry smell, Pavani points me to a similar incident in California a few years ago.
By the way, I don’t cook Indian nor look South Indian nor have a typically South Indian name. Awesome bigotry by the way.
” I sound like a ghori”—– you sound like a mare? try placing a small bowl of white vinegar by the stove if you’re cooking with pungent spices–i don’t know why but it seems to work. Can anyone explain?
Removing the headboard helps a bit
I suggest people call their number (817) 355-0055
identify themselves as a “curry person” and ask if there are any apartments available.
Akash. for your info, mustard seeds are dropped into hot oil hence making mustard oil. But then again, you probably will dispute that.
How to get rid of cooking smells? Use the vent and air fresheners (cinnamon work well) and clean your kitchen every single time you cook. Once every 4-6 months, clean all surfaces with 409 and Pine Sol.
I cook 4 days a week, mostly Indian, and use mustard oil once a week or so. The apartment still smells the same as when I moved in – musty 30-year-old building smell. I wish it smelled like “curry” as that would be an improvement.
I’d think the problem is less in India than in the US because houses are made of concrete and usually there’s no carpet. Nothing really porous for the smells to get into that can’t be washed. Most kitchens have windows or doors to the outside and high-end places I’ve seen have powerful vents. Also, people are more used to the cooking smell. Unpleasant smells are all relative. I had a friend from Thailand who couldn’t stand the smell of cookies baking.
This is just discrimination, plain and simple. We have laws that say you can’t deny someone housing based on their religion or national origin. If you allow people to smoke cigars in your apartments or have rabbits or ferrets, you can’t certainly can’t deny someone because of the food they cook.
Am I evil for hoping you get sued and/or face heavy fines?
Please educate yourself, here. If you throw mustard’s into oil it won’t become mustard oil (if i go by your logic, baby oil – poor babies). Also see that it is famous in northern parts of India & not in south.
———— begin: counter argument ————–
great!
based on the comments, once again i find myself to be the lone libertarian in this group 😐
anyway, my quick 2 cents:
unless this is tax-payer funded “public” housing, no one has the “right” to any part of any private property. discrimination is something each and every one of us does at almost every given moment. your choosing one option over the other is discrimination and it comes from experience. every time you choose a city to live in, a school to send your kids to, friends you choose to associate with (and folks you choose not to mix with) – every single thing is discrimination and it’s a good thing.
read and see if this will at least open your minds (if not change it): http://mises.org/story/3545 “The absence of discrimination between people would make it impossible to gain a conceptual understanding of man and would force us to operate at a purely perceptual level, either treating people as interchangeable blobs without differentiation, or treating each person as a completely new and exceptional phenomenon. It would put us in the position of starry-eyed infants who observe each new thing as a unique and unknown phenomenon to be stared at in vacant wonderment.”
there is absolutely nothing wrong with (private-funded) discrimination.
and yes, i am an indian and if an apartment refuses me, i will go to one that will accept me.
-prash.
———— end: counter argument ————–
i understand that you don;t have the right to live anywhere you choose – for instance, if you have a terribe credit history, this is an acceptable ground for rejecting a tenant. but ethnicity/religion/race is NOT. it’s called the fair housing act and unlike something like e.g. the freedom of religion clause under the first amendment, generally, it does not only appy to publicly funded housing.as a landlord, in fact, a citizen who has been discriminated against under the FHA can take private action and need not go through government channels to seek redress. landlords should be familiar with this act, at the very least to prevent them from committing illegal acts, as well as to avoid numerous lawsuits (of which i hope they experience many). and besides housing, discrimination is illegal even in e.g. private employment
ak, you’re on point like a sniper with this one.
I’d like people to think just for a split second, if a housing complex was uncovered to have anti-black or anti-jewish discrimination policies, do you think messages on those forums would be of the sort:
“well you see when you baste fried chicken it does actually contain a pungent smell, because you do put a lot spice, and the way to reduce that would be to bla bla bla”
or
“I don’t see why people are complaining, if I was a jewish person I’d just go to the non anti-semetic apartment complex that wanted me – besides its private ownership, they have the right to do what they please”
I would assume the FHA exists (and ak you can correct me, if you know) because housing is deemed as one of those basic necessities of life, and discrimination in that arena is simply not reflecting of a society that claims to practice freedom and equality. If something like this were to happen to either blacks or jews, sharpton and jackson would be at their door the next day, as would be the ADL or whoever else.
What does our community do? splinter and make the people who actually want to do something to correct the situation feel as if they’re “going over the top” or “being fanatic”
shilip wrote:
Spot on, shilip. We, as desis, seem to suffer from a “master-slave” mentality. If we perceive someone to be “above us” (whatever that may mean), we treat them like they own us. If we perceive someone to be “below us” (whatever that may mean), we don’t even give them the time of day.
Obviously people have different levels of tolerance for smells, especially those which they aren’t used to. Indians may not be bothered by Indian food, but very well could be by other peeps cooking meat (esp. vegetarians) and vice versa. That said, I don’t see how the debate over cooking smells has anything to do with the story. The term “curry people” seemed to be a generic slur for Muslims, and little to do with cooking (hell they weren’t even given a chance to start cooking before getting turned away). Most second generation desis still have “different” names and if we are to believe the women in the video, we’d get turned away as well, even if we cooked American daily. However, has anyone else thought that maybe the one woman knew she was going to get reassigned, and decided to concoct a discrimination story to a) get on TV and b) get sympathy points for her next job interview? So far these two women have been the only ones coming forward, and I don’t see why we should automatically believe everything they say over the company’s words.
“there is absolutely nothing wrong with (private-funded) discrimination.
and yes, i am an indian and if an apartment refuses me, i will go to one that will accept me.
-prash.”
Prash, what if you end up in a place where NO apartment complex will accept you based on your background? If we let one apartment complex accept people based on racial/ethnic/religious discrimination, then what about taking your argument to the extreme? If you argue that it is OK for someone to discriminate because it is private property, then you are arguing it would be OK for ALL to discriminate. So let’s say every apartment landlord decides they won’t rent to South Asians. Even if there is a public housing option (and what is the quality of these housing options?) that would leave all the South Asians with either living all together in one (most likely low quality) public housing area (segregation?) with the people who can afford it trying to buy their own property. Now, say the people selling property decide they have the same right to decide who can or cannot buy their property… then all the South Asians in the area would basically be forced to live in one place in substandard housing.
In fact, that is exactly what happened in the Boston area to African-Americans. Even now- the neighborhoods in Boston are very segregated on the lines of race, but this has historic roots in redlining (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Redlining) In Boston, redlining most often consisted of lending companies refusing to give African-Americans housing loans unless they lived they were buying land or homes in certain neighborhoods (such as Roxbury or Dorchester). These neighborhoods are the same ones which has less access to public transportation (to this day) poorly funded and run public schools, are are furthest and less convenient to the job hubs in Boston.
It is for these reasons that the Fair Housing Act exists, and also why it is so important to fight against stuff like this.
“That said, I don’t see how the debate over cooking smells has anything to do with the story.”
Exactly. I know a “curry person” who’s of Indo-Guyanese descent and never wants to touch Indian food. but he’d be thought of as such by the management at this place.
“Exactly. I know a “curry person” who’s of Indo-Guyanese descent and never wants to touch Indian food. but he’d be thought of as such by the management at this place.”
Yes. The whole food thing is a moot point. I cook Indian food all the time. And it’s delicious smell fills up my house.
Well I skipped most of the comments for being the clusterfucks of ridiculous opinion that they are, so apologies if this has already been voiced.
I’ve lived in Texas all of my life, and I’m in small town Texas now. Suburbs of Houston and Dallas have huge higher level education brown populations and these burbs do have latent racial tension. I grew up in a cookie cutter neighborhood of ALL brown/asian people but it was…a voluntary segregation? That to me seems to be the much more significant problem than apartment complexes restricting entry, its the grouping by race of middle class homeowners due to perceived “comfort amongst the same race”. Or something. The solution to me isn’t some analysis of how we can ‘stop smelling like curry’ (really, brown people? If you shower you probably don’t smell. Okay? hugs) its opening the damn door (which incidentally would probably vent any actual curry smells) and getting to know your neighbors so you don’t demonize each other. Wave. Talk to them. Explain where you’re from and what religion you practice instead of sanctifying it beyond the realm of conversation. Have a sense of humor about yourself. Have a fourth of July tandoori BBQ.
You could see this article as depressing, but to me it seems to be one of the many symptoms of a community that doesn’t understand each other. And this can be righted by talking to your neighbors.
This is why libertarians should be called “glibertarians.” The statements are so condescendingly false and facile. First off, there is something wrong housing discrimination, whether privately or publicly funded. Congress said so. See here. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fair_Housing_Act.
Second, sure if a complex doesn’t accept, you, personally, can probably find one that does. There are many, however, who can’t. And for them, a private right action and a manner redress is necessary. Just because you got yours, screw everyone else, huh?
So let’s all hold hands and sing kumbyah?
shilip – i’m not sure that it’s just the value placed on a right to housing – under the civil rights acts, discrimination is prohibited in various other fora. on the other hand,i’m not too familiar with the detailed policy behind the civil rights act, but i think it goes more towards your other point of preventing discrimination in society, in general, and in these particular areas .
but be sure to stay away from their “comments for being the clusterfucks of ridiculous opinion that they are,”
“but to me it seems to be one of the many symptoms of a community that doesn’t understand each other. And this can be righted by talking to your neighbors.”
They won’t be your neighbors if you are not allowed to live there.
Personally being a person of Indian origin, I never had problem in renting an apartment and/or house. Furthermore, we never had to do any “extra” cleaning of the rental property to remove curry smell or whatever. I always rented at the best location of the town. In the USA if you have money, you can get anything regardless of your color, race and gender.
Yes… To rephrase without snark, I think purposeful housing restriction is much less widespread than more subtle housing discrimination and neighborhood racial discord. From my experience, there exists a voluntary segregation that goes both ways. Simple gestures can help cure social ills profoundly because racist actions are fears manifested. In this case just must be served.
I stress community because there is no unified community in modern suburbs even if they are diverse, and also because you don’t call desis “curry people” if you’re actually friends with them.
Can you say it again with “snark” this time because I read that couple of times and I honestly don’t know what you are saying. It’s almost like it’s a “clusterfuck of ridiculous opinion.”
“I stress community because there is no unified community in modern suburbs even if they are diverse, and also because you don’t call desis “curry people” if you’re actually friends with them.”
but being friends with them is (and should not be) not a pre-requisite for allowing them to live where they please (and can financially afford to)
Covert discrimination cannot and should not be countered by legal action. In a free country, private individuals have a right to choose who they rent out apartments to. In this case they may have a racial bias, but I see no reason why the government has the right to tell them who they must rent to.
I would prefer if discrimination is countered through education, rather than legislation. If my neighbor is racist, it is his right to be so. If I want to change that, I should demonstrate to him the error of his ways through rational discourse, not sue the hell out of him (which only exacerbates the problem, pushing it underground).
Here’s an example of why this right (of the owner to choose who to rent to) must not be infringed by the state. Let us say I own a four apartment complex, which currently has three minority families and one vacant apartment. Then, a neo-Nazi fellow comes to me and submits an application to rent. The guy is educated, does not have a criminal record, and is nice enough by first appearances. However, I find out that he is a member of the white nationalist party.
Under these circumstances, it is of paramount importance that I be able to discriminate against him on the basis of his political allegiance (even though this may be considered against “equal opportunity” laws). The state cannot take my right to discriminate away, no matter how noble its goals seem.
In fairness to prash, I think he is arguing not from the point of view of existing laws, but from an exclusively property-rights based libertarian point of view (I think his argument would be that things like the FHA and other civil rights protections actually distort the market, and that pure market based approaches will ensure that folks get a desirable outcome. For example, if Indians are indeed being discriminated against, a market in housing for Indians will appear, and so on). There are others who argue from a limited government power perspective, again arguing that this is a problem that can be solved by markets.
While there is some appeal to such a line of thought, the issue is that such discrimination is often not self-remedying and cannot be fixed by markets. I’d recommend that prash (and psamtani) read the work of the Nobel winning economist, Gary Becker, who is no shrinking liberal, and a strong advocate of markets. One of his models for discrimination very clearly talks about how for minorities that are a small proportion of the population (say, less than 10%), the cost of discrimination is borne disproportionately by the minorities (and hence the majority does not have any incentive to fix it). Similarly, he describes mathematically about how discrimination in certain areas (for example, by teachers and employers) can be self fulling. Housing is similar – lack of affordable housing can significantly affect employment prospects etc., and hence can lead to cascading effects on the discriminated population. This is what motivates some kind of government role in these scenarios.
In any case, the most offensive aspect of this particular discrimination is its war on English. Haven’t the landlords heard of the entire concept of currying favor?
At some point, if there is a role for the government, it should be in providing a public housing option for these guys, not forcing private owners to rent to them. And it needs to be a repeated problem for this to happen. Most people don’t want to live around people who don’t want them around. If you silence their voices, how do I know which apartments to avoid??
This is a tree falling in the forest argument. If you silence their voices, just like if there is a person who is a closet neo-nazi but doesn’t organize or distribute leaflets in the complex, I am not sure what problem he causes.
Reading these libertarian arguments makes me so glad that most find their views completely discredited and that they are so far from the levers of power.
What is the ideal state of nature for these people? The US South in 1875-1960s? Discrimination was legal and widely practiced and the market did not correct the problem. Shops, businesses and public accommodations did quite well despite overtly discriminating against over 10% of their market.
“Under these circumstances, it is of paramount importance that I be able to discriminate against him on the basis of his political allegiance (even though this may be considered against “equal opportunity” laws). The state cannot take my right to discriminate away, no matter how noble its goals seem.”
actually no, you shouldn’t be able to discriminate against him based on his beliefs and views, you can based on safety concerns for the remaining residents.
I am not libertarian, but this argument doesn’t really fly because the state played an active role in creating laws and a social system that perpetuated segregation and discrimination – for example, mandating segregated workplaces and schools, preventing blacks from registering as voters and thereby limiting their influence on the political process, and so on. This, and other such laws, is what Jim Crow refers to. It is episodes like this that libertarians actually use to support their argument for a limited government restricted to providing security and enforcing laws, and leaving the rest to private enterprise.
Further, since it doesn’t seem like you really read my comment, there are certain aspects of society like education, employment (and likely, housing), where discrimination has a feed-forward effect, and hence discrimination in those arenas further exacerbates general discrimination against minorities.
These Randian statements are really nice and forceful sounding, but you are shaking your impotent fist here.
The state can and does take away that right, and gives those discriminated against a remedy against you if you do discriminate. That genie is out of the bottle and not going back in. In case you haven’t noticed, the trend is to expand the categories of people who fall under anti-discrimination laws (e.g., gays and lesbians) rather than limit them.
“Personally being a person of Indian origin, I never had problem in renting an apartment and/or house. Furthermore, we never had to do any “extra” cleaning of the rental property to remove curry smell or whatever. I always rented at the best location of the town. In the USA if you have money, you can get anything regardless of your color, race and gender.”
I think the majority of Indians in the US have this same experience. But like most of the desis on here have voiced, that doesn’t mean everyone has this experience, and some people won’t have the resources to move around to find a nondiscriminating landlord, and its important to recognize discrimination and call attention to discrimination. I’m glad a complaint is filed against that apt building and noise is being made. I’m not a lawyer but it seems a pretty blatant violation of Fair housing laws. Seriously I am Indian and hardly ever cook curry (though I hope to continue to learn – when I cook my Indian dinners, that’s when I get the best reception from my guests who I have over) yet rahul would be discriminating against me. My Filipino friend rarely cooks filipino cuisine and ends up cooking Hungarian cuisine as that is where her husband is from.
I have often heard from white people, don’t hire blacks or rent to them. As we also own motels and hotels, that same crap was heard by us by the white peole who worked for us. I do believe that people like little rahul, may not be Indian and is just complaining to start a stigma. The bottomline is that people like rahul cannot be discriminating against people b/c of their ethnicity, whether they are black, white, filipino, indian, etc. Everyone will find some odor that culturally derives from others disgusting, however that’s not going to be reason enuff to discriminate. If rahul will just say which business he owns – it would be good for the city to know this practice is going on, in his business.
“Personally being a person of Indian origin, I never had problem in renting an apartment and/or house. Furthermore, we never had to do any “extra” cleaning of the rental property to remove curry smell or whatever. I always rented at the best location of the town. In the USA if you have money, you can get anything regardless of your color, race and gender.”
Total joke if I ever heard one.
First of all how would you know if you were redlined, or denied based on your color? Do you think these people will tell you? “Oh yes mr so and so, we actually have apartments available, but you’re not white so we cannot rent to you, I hope you understand”
I think you’re one of these cats that grew up not in the US, and have not had to experience these kind of racial differences, or treatment based on race through your formative years.
-Oprah had all the money in the world, but she was not let into a jewelry store once, in Chicago (her own town none the less) because the staff did not recognize her (she wore no makeup or nice clothes) and thought she was just some ol’ black woman.
Shilip,
I was born, brought up and stuided in India and came to the USA on work visa and became permanent resident thought employer sponsorship. I am dark, look Indian and speak with a typical Indian accent. Despite all that, not even a single time I was denied on any application for renting an apartment or house. I rented in suburbs of big cities as well as very small town of the USA. The owners of all retnal places were either white or companies. Because I was never deined on rental apartment, I have no reason to believe that there is discrimination on rental properties.
It may sound like a joke but that is my personal expereince.
With regard to my comment about money, my experience says if a person of any color/race shows money when he/she enters the shop, he/she will be happily received. Keep in mind, white people of the USA and Europe are happily selling whatever they can to Indians/Chinese or for that matter whosoever has money…..Money talks these days.
PS,
I agree with you. I have something to add to your comments. If you say majority of Indians (or non whites) have similar experience like me, I think that is reasonable statement. US government (for that matter other states) can make laws to eradicate discrimination completely and create awareness about diffrent colors, cultures and races however there will be some a small percentage of people who will continue to be biased based on color/race/gender. This could just be due to their personal expereince, lack of education or could just be the human factor. I think if we continue to highlight the benefit of treating everyone equal we stand better chances.
While I’m totally against such discrimination, I’d like to add couple of things I have observed: It is indeed true that most Indian apartments and cars smell of curry, and if you have noticed, during lunchtime (and even after the lunch hour) the cubicles of your desi co-workers smell of food – more often than not. Please don’t get me wrong, I love Indian food and I’m an Indian myself who loves to make own dinner at home. But that doesn’t mean I want my cloths and everything having that smell 24/7. If it helps at all – 1. You can open up all your windows and run the exhaust during the cooking process, and it does help to continue the same couple of hours after cooking is done 2. You can use odor-remover sprays in open spaces once you feel it’s time to close the windows and switch off the exhaust 3. I don’t use curry leaves or raw onion for cooking. I do with the onion flakes and chopped garlic which I tend to add a bit later instead of frying them at the start. Oh, I don’t fry the spices either – I add them a bit later. This might have helped me get rid of the smell faster too. But again, this sort of cooking process may not be for everyone.
“Despite all that, not even a single time I was denied on any application for renting an apartment or house. I rented in suburbs of big cities as well as very small town of the USA. The owners of all retnal places were either white or companies. Because I was never deined on rental apartment, I have no reason to believe that there is discrimination on rental properties. It may sound like a joke but that is my personal expereince.”
What Im telling you is, if it did happen to you , you’d never know it, because America has changed such that people can no longer freely advertise discriminatory practices.
So I find it hilarious when people come out and bold and underline their messages “I have never been a victim of a …” as if these people will specifically delineate to you when you are. Don’t you understand that the muslims/’curry people’ denied housing on this complex would walk away from that place thinking “Ive never been discriminated ever in my life! America is a great wonderful land where the lillies bloom and fireflies dance!”
“I was born, brought up and stuided in India and came to the USA on work visa and became permanent resident thought employer sponsorship.”
Which explains your naivete on this issue. All of my relatives who’ve come here well into their adult years don’t have the experience of a racism-laden childhood. You keep sayin “this is my experience” well what your experience lacks is witnessing preferential treatment as a 5 year old right in front of your eyes, and being confused as hell when all you hear around you is “America is the land of freedom, where color holds no barrier”
So take a step back, this is something you’re likely more confused about than you think.
Shilip,
Most first generation Indian migrants (like me) feel that Indians who grew up here integrate with othe cultures better and face less discrimination because they can speak English in Amerian accent, mannerism are refined (American style) and can talk on local American issues. But you seem to imply otherwise. This discussion thread is specifically for rental apartment and not about discrimination in school or at work place.
WIth regard to your comment:- “Ive never been discriminated ever in my life! America is a great wonderful land where the lillies bloom and fireflies dance!”, try living in another country like the UK, Australia, NZ or any European country or for that matter great India. In India, we are taught “Unity in Diversity” from grade 1, however we alll know the status of unity and discimination based on relgion, language, economic status and also on color. Light skinned Indians get better treatment even today.
A: I am not sure if you are being comical, but in case you are serious, please disabuse yourself of this preposterous notion that there is no discrimination against Indians/other minorities in renting apartments.
If you have time and care to explore this issue further, then run an experiment. In one of your earlier comments, you stated that you have a ‘typical’ Indian accent. Get someone over with a standard American accent. Pick up one of those common rental books and start calling up the rental places one by one which are located in areas where the minority populations are low in number and are not around universities. The places where they tell you that the units are not immediately available for some reason, get the other person (with the American accent) to call up the same places after 15 minutes asking to rent. If you run this experiment enough number of times, you will clearly see a pattern. If you were to only call up rental units which are owned by big corporations, it might take more than a few tries to see the difference, but once you start calling up individual renters, your American dream will come crashing faster than you can imagine.
Or you can just google ‘housing discrimination’ and get educated.
Btw, you may very well be correct when you say that there is less discrimination in the US when compared to Australia, NZ, or Europe but ‘less’ discrimination does not translate to ‘no’ discrimination.
Your comments are very illustrative of a tendency I have sometimes seen in desi people where no discrimination takes place anywhere in the United States unless you have been personally subjected to it. For example, if you have never been discriminated at work, then there is no workplace discrimination, etc. etc. In Jury Trials for Civil Rights cases, you are the undetectable B-2 which will nuke the plaintiff’s case as the Plaintiff’s attorney keeps you on the jury thinking that you ‘will get it’.
“feel that Indians who grew up here integrate with othe cultures better and face less discrimination because they can speak English in Amerian accent, “
And that would be a false statement, because someone bent on discriminating against you doesn’t care what your accent sounds like.
“In India, we are taught “Unity in Diversity” from grade 1, however we alll know the status of unity and discimination based on relgion, language, economic status and also on color. Light skinned Indians get better treatment even today.”
Does India have a history of dark skinned Indians not getting housing, jobs, and facing harsher penalties in the criminal justice system? Colorism within a community while it’s a form of discrimination, cannot be equated to systematized exclusion. As a dark skinned Indian growing up in India, were you ever made to feel like you weren’t Indian? That you were a foreign element?
Indians raised in America are/were made to feel that all the time. A systematic, institutionalized practice of exclusion is far different than thinking light skinned people are “prettier” (which I agree is a form of discrimination)
“Does India have a history of dark skinned Indians not getting housing, jobs, and facing harsher penalties in the criminal justice system? Colorism within a community while it’s a form of discrimination, cannot be equated to systematized exclusion. As a dark skinned Indian growing up in India, were you ever made to feel like you weren’t Indian? That you were a foreign element? “
I think that it is hard to talk about this because it brings in other issues. If I look at North India– darker skinned people also tend (note: tend, not always) to be lower caste, and also lower class. A lot of people then get three-fold discrimination- caste, class, and skin color.
There is definitely a history of dark skinned Indians not getting housing, jobs, and facing harsher penalties. It may not be so starkly obvious among well-educated people in the cities, but go to the slums and see how lives in substandard housing. See who gets held in jail for crimes, and who walks free. See who the police beat in the street. See who lives in certain neighborhoods and who is not allowed.
Bihar is of course, an extreme of this, but this state shows most starkly the discrimination. For generations landlords (upper caste, upper class, lighter skinned people) were in charge of naming the children of the lower caste, lower class, darker skinned of their serfs (I think that is the best description). They would name then things like “Blackie” or “Monkey” and so forth. Landlords in Bihar still can rape and use women (and children) from the lower group with no recourse.Out of my 25 students, the students with the darkest skin were embarrassed to have their pictures taken because they felt they were dark, and hence ugly. They had lower self-esteem then the even slightly lighter skinned students. Lower caste/class/darker skinned people in Bihar were not allowed to sit in chairs, they had to sit on the ground while higher up people could sit in chairs. I am not talking about ancient times, but 2005. Dark skinned, lower class, lower caste people in Bihar did not worry about whether the higher up people treated them as members of the nation– their demand was to be treated as human beings.
“A: I am not sure if you are being comical, but in case you are serious, please disabuse yourself of this preposterous notion that there is no discrimination against Indians/other minorities in renting apartments.”
I don’t think that is AT ALL what A is saying. he is saying he himself has not seemed to face housing discrimination. And yes, “seemed” is the verbed b/c no one can know for sure in many situations if they are being discriminated at. I don’t go around with a chip on my shoulder calling “racism” everytime there’s some conflict. That cheapens what actually is racism and it’s hard to prove in personal situations.
A – I completely agree with you that many Indians won’t have to deal with housing discrimination. Shilip’s own experiences are hers. Yours are yours. I don’t think when I am told there isn’t an aptmt available that that means I’m discriminated against; I realize such things exist but no I didn’t live in such racialized world as Shilip seems to have lived in the US. the comedian Aziz Anzari, havng grown up in the South like me, with a gastroentologist dad, has said that race wasn’t an issue for him. That’s how it was for me in many respects. I had teachers in my small southern town say all the time how smart I was, treat me as the teacher’s pet, and I never grew up feeling alientated or unattractive b/c of my race.
A, the other thing, Indians sometimes have positive stereotypes. How many times have I heard “indians are so smart” – there are positive and negative stereotypes that are often part of life particularly for a minority. These positive stereotypes can hinder the discrimination that someone who feels that way, can have against a foreign minority; much more so than other minorities who didn’t have the immigration history like most desis, and are not in a high socioeconomic bracket, and therefore often don’t have the positive stereotypes, and partially b/c of cycles of poverty have statistics that also support high crime, etc.
A, i don’t believe you are saying that discrimination against desis don’t exist – of course not. However I completely agree with you that many Indians may not experience it in a blatant way that effects their lives detrimentally.
“Shilip’s own experiences are hers. Yours are yours. I don’t think when I am told there isn’t an aptmt available that that means I’m discriminated against; I realize such things exist but no I didn’t live in such racialized world as Shilip seems to have lived in the US. the comedian Aziz Anzari, havng grown up in the South like me, with a gastroentologist dad, has said that race wasn’t an issue for him.”
I’m a guy.
And I don’t deny A’s experience. I’m just saying they are incomplete. I know many Indians who came to the US after their mid 20s who share similar views. As for Aziz Ansari and others that say “race is not an issue,” all that means is he’s not ‘tuned’ to it. But if he grew up in the US, south or not, race certainly was an issue. It’s just a matter of how much he was/is aware of it.
“How many times have I heard “indians are so smart” – there are positive and negative stereotypes that are often part of life particularly for a minority.”
These ‘positive’ ones are actually negative in disguise. and it takes a bit analysis to discover it. It’s pejorative, usually people who say this are one’s who are in authority, and who make decisions about the lives of these particular minorities, (teachers, bosses, etc…)
like when bill gates said “chinese are the smartest people in the world, south indians are next” of course, white males, who make most of the decisions that affect these people can stand outside and create the heirarchy in the first place.
“These ‘positive’ ones are actually negative in disguise. and it takes a bit analysis to discover it. It’s pejorative, usually people who say this are one’s who are in authority, and who make decisions about the lives of these particular minorities, (teachers, bosses, etc…)”
I totlly agree with you. Stereotypes in general are destructive. It doesn’t allow minorities to be indiividuals – takes away our humanity. I volunteer with an Asian domestic violence organization, and certainly our training involves the destructiveness of model minority myth. Yet, at the same time, in practical life, these positive stereotypes, may shield you from say some of the housing discrimination that may be prevalent if you weren’t a minority with some positive stereotypes or you weren’t from a high-income profession, etc.
Incidents like what is written about in this blog entry, makes you wake up from “complacency” that might, might, be cause by affluent soceioeconomic conditions where you are the boss of folks who are in the majority. Anyone can face discrimination. Laws like the fair housing act are supposed to counter that – hopefully with this incident those discriminating assholes will have to answer for it.
“bill gates said “chinese are the smartest people in the world, south indians are next” of course, white males, who make most of the decisions that affect these people can stand outside and create the heirarchy in the first place.”
bill gates said that? everybody knows that south indians are the smartest, bestest folks in the whole world ;). God, how ridiculous of gates.
“And I don’t deny A’s experience. I’m just saying they are incomplete.”
Isn’t everyone’s experience “incomplete” in the grand scheme of things?