Reading about the violence at a Sikh Gurdwara in Vienna, Austria, last weekend, and now the subsequent, extremely dangerous riots in Punjab, leaves me feeling sad though not particularly surprised.
In Austria, the violence occurred at a Gurdwara founded by members of a sect called Dera Sach Khand, a group I hadn’t heard of before this incident occurred; they are followers of Ravidas, a religious teacher from roughly the same period as official Sikhism’s founder, Guru Nanak. Ravidas was from the Chamar caste, and as I understand it most Ravidasias in Punjab today are from that caste as well. (Wikipedia describes their places of worship as “Gurdeheras” rather than “Gurdwaras,” so perhaps it might be more accurate to say that the violence at the temple in Vienna took place at a Ravidasi Gurdehera, rather than a Sikh Gurdwara.)
It is not clear to me how many followers they have, though I have read estimates that Punjab has a disproportionately high Dalit population (nearly 30%), and it is possible that some of those rioting in places like Jalandhar are not specifically followers of this sect, but rather Dalits who are rioting against what they perceive as caste violence. (See pictures at the BBC)
There is also a second, properly orthodox Sikh Gurdwara in Vienna, which has been described as being controlled by hardliners who support the idea of an independent Sikh homeland (Khalistan).
Details from the news reports have been sketchy. I do not know in very much detail how the hostility between these two groups reached this level, though I can imagine a narrative that led to these events, based on what I’ve seen here in the U.S. The original Gurdwara was dominated by hardliners, which is not all that surprising: they were the ones who cared enough about the religion to invest the resources to open a temple in Austria to begin with. Most of the sangat (the congregation) were religiously moderate, and many would be clean-shaven, to fit in better in Austrian society. Some may not have come from orthodox backgrounds in India (i.e., Dera sects), and a few may not have identified publicly as Sikhs before they left India. Judging from the Sikhs I encountered on a visit to France a few years ago, most of the community would be working class, employed in service at restaurants, small businesses, and various kinds of “informal” labor. But despite the complexity of their background and fragility of their connection to the Sikh tradition, the people who were attending the kirtan and bhog (services) each week did not hear very much that related directly to their lives or backgrounds. They continued to attend because this weekly ritual constituted their only opportunity to experience a sense of community with other Indian immigrants.
Then, when a new temple opens, many of the heterodox members of the congregation jump at the chance for a different kind of experience. The new temple is run by heterodox Ravidasias, who do things slightly differently than in the orthodox Sikh Gurduwara. Some of the congegants at the new temple are themselves Ravidasias, but perhaps there are non-Ravidasias, who don’t care that much anyway that there are pictures of some unfamiliar people on the walls, or some lines changed in the prescribed prayers. At least here they do not feel marginal in the same way.
The loss of popularity infuriates the leadership of the first, orthodox Gurdwara, and when a prominent leader of the Dera Sach Khand sect in India comes to Vienna for a visit, they go to exact their revenge. The result is that the visiting leader is shot dead on the floor of the Gurdwara/Gurdehera, and more deaths in the riots in Punjab that follow. Also: several men are critically wounded in the melee, there are unforunate news headlines around the world, and finally, there is a fledgling, fragile Sikh community in Vienna that is left shattered. No one is probably going to be going to either of these Gurdwaras again for months — and more than a few will probably never go back.
As I say, some of what I have written above is speculative, though it is based on real facts from various news sources. It is also only a slight variation on the factionalism I’ve seen in many places in the U.S.
For example, when I lived in Durham, North Carolina, a place where there were very few Sikhs, I was shocked to learn that there were actually two Gurdwaras in the town — one, more moderate but also heterodox, and the other more “kattar” — founded by orthodox Sikhs, who encouraged orthodoxy in constituents. (They were good people — many are friends — but the point is that even in this small community the differences mattered enough that one house of worship could not contain them.) There are similar stories of factionalism in the Washington DC area, where I grew up, as well as in the Philadelphia area, where I live now — and indeed, all over the diaspora.
On a personal note, though I was aware of the factionalism as a child and teenager growing up in the DC area, I didn’t grow up knowing about the caste stuff, or the different Sikh sects that have been in the news in recent years. On caste, the Sikh community in Maryland that I knew were mainly non-Jats, though I didn’t really know that at the time, because no one talked about it. But I also realize now that the community I grew up around were also predominantly from upper caste and privileged backgrounds, which is why we never heard of the Dera sects, like Dera Sacha Sauda (see this blog post from May 2007), or now, Dera Sach Khand. In short, it may be that no one paid much attention to caste because everyone we knew were from privileged castes. Our privilege may have made it easier to adhere to the anti-caste rebellion that inspired the first Sikh Gurus, and that was re-kindled by the Singh Sabha movement in the latter years of the British Raj.
Incidentally, I would recommend curious readers to an interesting post up about this at the Sikh blog, The Langar Hall. Clearly, along with everything else that is happening in the Sikh community, there is now a serious contest for adherents roughly under the banner of the Sikh tradition running along caste lines. For orthodox Sikhs like Jodha at the Langar Hall, the answer is a form of sincere self-criticism something like this: “we need to be true to the real tradition of Sikhism since the Singh Sabha movement, which is anti-caste and anti-sect, and do a better job of being inclusive.” I admire that sentiment. But the SC/OBC followers of these Dera sects clearly have not been interested in joining that program, and have instead begun asserting their caste identity via the heterodox Dera sects, in ways that make orthodox Sikhs very uncomfortable (or angry).
It isn’t great, but it’s reality, and I don’t know if yet another call to be better about finally abolishing caste will stop caste-based movements from continuing to assert themselves against the dominant tradition. I do not claim to know how the Sikh community can solve this problem, but I do think that the old, familiar idealism is going to be less effective in the long run than a pragmatic willingness to negotiate and compromise with the people with whom one may disagree.
It may also be time to spend less energy worrying about injustices historically committed against Sikhs, and more time thinking about injustices committed by some Sikhs against other Sikhs — as well as injustices against non-Sikhs in the surrounding community (in this case, the lower caste groups in Punjab).
The “traditional” sikhs (ie the Jutt-Khatri dominated groups) need to encourage a more of Sannu-Ki live and let live attitude. If Ravidasi, Saccha Saudis, Saccha Khands or any one else wants to compile there own version of Granth Sahib they dont have any right to force any one other wise. It is amusing as the granth is a compilation. But the bigger point I want to raise is the “traiditional” sikhs DONT get the concept of freedom of speech. I have had a physical altercation with 2 such folks in my own home, when I had said that I dont buy the guru teg bahadur and kashmiri pundit story and laid my reasons for it. I find cunnighams version better backed by facts. BTW this was one reason Khushwants singhs history of sikh was banned in india in 1962. Then a redited version was allowed in. Again the point is not weather I am correct, But the point is the incredible churlish tough guy attitude thats encouraged by the general culture, and arguements can not be had on this topic Stuff like tough warrior, strong as sava lakh, martial race, descendents of aryans and scythians, taller, fairer than rest of em is gloatingly encouraged.
So I am not optimistic that all of a sudden “they” will be more tolerant towards those who want to create their own compilation of the book and their own ritual. “They” have to be confronted, like all fundamentalists and facist. This is as much of a freedom of speech issue as any other….
Wikipedia describes their places of worship as “Gurdeheras†rather than “Gurdwaras,†so perhaps it might be more accurate to say that the violence at the temple in Vienna took place at a Ravidasi Gurdehera, rather than a Sikh Gurdwara. Well – it will be better ask a ‘Ravidasi’ what he or she calls his place of worship. The wiki entry that you refer to is probably edited by an orthodox Sikh. One main refrain amongst the ‘orthodox’ (of should we call them Sikh fascists) is that these Dera followers are not Sikhs or Singhs, that these people cannot be Sikhs as they do not follow the Guru Granth Sahib to the letter (as the orthodox Sikhs do). There is more to it but I am not an expert on Sikhism. So, my question is this – if someone calls himself or herself a Sikh should they first seek a certificate from the “orthodox” Sikhs ? If you dare to call yourself a Sikh without that certificate then you should expect the defenders of the Panth to descend on you and lynch you ? Another question: If some people believe that these Dera followers are not Sikhs then what is the reason for the raised heckles ? I do not think that the Dera followers are crashing the gates of a khalis Gurudwara. How does the Sikh faith gets diluted if a person proclaims himself a Sikh ? The argument is very similar to the one that ‘anti-gay marriage’ nut cases make about threat to the ‘institution of marriage’. I am also not able to understand this Khalistani connection – Did these Dera ‘sants’ ever say that want a competing Dera-istan, or did they ever say that Punjab is part of India – did they ever opined on this issue ? I have not found anything on the net. I am completely astounded at the sense of victimization by the Sikhs. My parents live in a town which is way too far from Punjab – still sardars are thriving there – they have bought properties, erected huge gurudwaras, re-named streets – schools — even huge localities after Sikh Gurus and in general are living better than most of the indigenous people. Just imagine the firestorm if the local majority Hindus start forcing these Sikh to convert to Hindusim as a pre-condition to work and live in away from Punjab.
Four varnas and four ashramas are mentioned in Bhagavad Gita when Krishna declares that this varnashrama system was devised by him.
Yoga Fire – I can only speak from my experience and what I have learned. If I have been incorrect then please correct me. As far as the caste system being part of Hindu religion, is that not true? Brahmins are the highest Hindu caste and have stronger control over the Vedas, is that correct? I am not sure of the names of the castes after that, but I understand that these were established based on Hindu reliigious beliefs.
As far as religious vs. cultural — This is more of a concept I have tried to understand growing up a Sikh in America with a maternal family that has strong Amritdhari [following the guidelines laid out by the 10th guru] influences and a paternal side almost an opposite [grew up with turbans, however most are now clean cut, drink alcohol and eat meat]. There are many aspects of Punjabi culture and Indian culture that are not doctrines in the Sikh faith. For example, there is a lot of debate as to what customs a Sikh wedding should/should not include that are not a part of Sikh religion but may be a part of Punjabi culture or other [American, Canadian, British,etc.] culture. Throwing rose petals at the bride and groom at the end of the lamhe [circling the Sri Guru Granth Sahibji] or placing garlands on the bride and groom after the wedding in front of the Sri Guru Granth Sahibji. Another example could be the practice of wearing certain stones for good luck, this is not religious but cultural. In the same sense, as I stated earlier, the caste system is not a religious but a cultural concept, at least in regards to the Sikh faith. Actually as I have heard it in Punjabi, it is not called “caste” to distinguish someone as Jatt or Kshytri or other, but “jaat”. Does anyone have more clarification on that?
As far as other religions and discussing the issue of religious vs. cultural, I do not have the experience to give examples. Maybe a similar explanation could be Pagan customs and traditions adopted by the Catholic and Christian faiths?
But the varna which you cite from the BG does not map on to the ground reality in India that goes by the name of caste. This is another reason why clarity on the concept of caste is needed before people go around bashing caste.
Also, there’s nothing wrong with orthodoxy as long as the orthodox don’t demand that everyone else behave like them.
Look, socially-stratified endogomous communities are a feature (!) of all south asian religions. In Pakistan, the Gujjars, Jats, Chamars, and Arains are called “tribes”, in across the border in India they are “castes” — it’s pretty much the same damn thing.
(This feature is mostly not found in North America — Red Sox fans and rednecks are not like yadavs or vannis. Caste is a desi thing).
Like Divya said, that’s not really the caste system as it is understood today.
My point is that “Hinduism” isn’t a revealed religion. There is no single scripture and it is expected that the interpretations of the Vedas will change over time to be relevant to the time and place in which they are being read. But it’s not like you can just draw a simple line between culture and religion. We don’t believe that the religion came in exogenously. The culture is shaped by the religion but it works the other way as well. The reason the various religious teachings are the way they are is also because they were often designed for people living in that specific culture.
The problem esstially is culturally most Sikhs are Jat centric, a culture which in intself breaks up, as per Hindu, Muslim or Sikh. But esstially the Jat side is stronger than the relgious side. Many a times I asked my mother, as a Sikh I should be allowed to marry any other sikh..but no, it could only be a Jat.
Re Intolerance, that is true as well.
When the Muslims burned effagies ( sorry for mispelling)re Satanic Verses, Sikhs laughed at their rash methods. Yet when Behsti ( a play ) was performed at a major Stage in Birmingham, UK, the Sikhs attacked the building, actors, writer and Police..So yes actually freedom of true speech eludes all from the Punjab..
58 wanderer, Would your mother be OK with marrying another non-sikh Jatt as opposed to non-Jat Sikh? In other words, which is the stronger association?
Wait a sec… The four ashramas (Brahmacharya, Grihasta, Vanaprastha, and Sannyasa) are mentioned in the Manu Smriti, not the Gita…
A rose by any other name . . . But we could achieve the exact same thing on all hemispheres by wiping out the entire population of south asia and repopulating from other parts of the world.
You can call it caste all you want, but what do you achieve by that? No amount of demonization of that word has improved matters. All it has done is to make certain sections of the population (typified by SM readers) feel so above it all and good about themselves. Surely we can seek a better understanding of the problem that that good-for-nothing label?
re 54 SD
Jaat is caste
Re your other points.exactly…Chritsmas comes from Christ Mass which in turn comes from Balck Mass which in turn comes from a Winter Soltise Pagan custom. Augustus on arriving in Briton could only hope to get local interest in Christanity via blending with local customs. Jesus was not born in December. And he came from a middle easten Jewish culture…and the rest of Euripe still today perform a very holy Catholic ceremony at Xmas than go home..Xmas Trees are like the Mass a British thing, thus exported to North America and other English Speaking nations…so the culture versus relgion argument is very valed here..
Sikh doesn’t = Jat, but most Sikhs are Jats, therefore prejudice to those that are not..simple
This should be seen as a Punjabi issue against Bhayyas ( rude I know) who have come into the area and are disliked..
Jati, in principle as a Sikh I can marry anyone ( humanity comes first) As a Orthodox Sikh, the right wing elements will say anyone but a Muslim
My point was that as a SIkh why can’t I marry a Tarkhan who happens to be a Sikh? Re Jat, re jaat is the same, but issue now really is whether despite their being Jat or otherwise, could I live with their religious customs and beliefs? Would the marriage work? That is the true consideration..
As a Punjabi, I rather marry a Punjabi than a non Punjabi, as a human, why not anyone?
You are confusing jati with varna. The hindu caste system as in varnashramadharma is something completely different from tribalism. The perversion of hindu casteism lies in its hereditary nature as Guru Nanak, like Buddha 2000 years before him, taught. A rigid hierarchy based on birth cannot be defended rationally or morally.
“When the Muslims burned effagies ( sorry for mispelling)re Satanic Verses, Sikhs laughed at their rash methods.” If it had been limited to burning effigies it would have been ok, the problem was demand for murder as well as a murder of a translator.
..”So yes actually freedom of true speech eludes all from the Punjab”
Not sure about it. Amongst indian punjabi it appears mostly a jutt/khatri sikhs who dont get it now. All the other groups have slowly gotten used to it…They might not support it or defend it, but they do get it that others have the right to offend them.
In an agrarian society without any public education system to speak of how exactly do you propose to go about teaching children professional, military, or analytical skills but through their parents and communities? Do you want to send 1 teacher out to every little pack of 10 or 12 kids in a village in the hopes that you will discover each and every one of their unique talents?
Do you know of any large and orderly agrarian society that was not characterized by hierarchy based on birth and socio-economic continuity across generations? No, the emphasis on birth wasn’t a “perversion.” It was simply a description of society as it has existed for most of the 8,000 or so years since mankind discovered settled agriculture.
Social mobility is expensive people. It’s a luxury we can now afford due to modern technology that makes transmission and dissemination of knowledge cheap. Trying to tar people without that technology that couldn’t afford it for not buying it is inane.
I am not sure how come Langar Hall isn’t just tolerated but welcomed on this site. It calls itself a progressive site. Progressive my ass! All it is a front for not just unreasonable anti-India clamor but very clear undertones of anti-Hindu behavior. Jodha isn’t an orthodox Sikh. Jodha is a strident, provincial, distributor of hyper-exaggerated accounts of Sikh persecution. Will you ever encourage your readers to get their information from Bajrang Dal’s site? Langar Hall’s bloggers and commenters routinely romanticize evil men as Bhindranwale – the man who would unabashedly call for the killing of Hindus.
In Punjab, most land owners are called “Jatts” and on these pieces of land are people who do alot of the cleaning and labor and these are mostly made up of “Chamars”
Even though there is supposed to be no caste system in Sikhism, being a “Jatt” is a important fact about the identity of themselves and being called a “Sikh” is not enough.
So chamars have been shoved out of the mainstream in Punjab and they formed together and created this “off shoot” of Sikhism since they were not excepted by the Gurdwaras.
So, Sikhs have no one to blame but themselves for this off shoot because of the discrimination of the Chamars
It is like the difference between a white church and black church. The black church has its own traditions.
Every religion that I can think of develops different sects. Sikhism is only 500 years old and the development of different sects of Sikhism is inevitable and with these changes comes violence and it is a really normal pattern in history if you think about it.
“excepted” sould be “accepted” in the above post
I have been making this mistake since I was 10 years old.
“I am not sure how come Langar Hall isn’t just tolerated but welcomed on this site.” Thanks for pointing that out. It does show Amarjeets ambivilance towards the Kooks from canada, Even though the linked post had nothing of that sort. But Jodha w/ his lions roaring and kripans flashing is definarely one crazy kook.
Re #54/62 (SD and Wanderer):
I think SD is trying to state two different Punjabi words, which are hard to transliterate into English without it looking like the same word. Jatt (sounds like “jut” in English; the farming tribe/caste/community/whatever) and jaath (sorta rhymes with “swath” in English; used to describe someone’s tribe/caste/community/whatever origins).
Not just that but there’s a regular commenter here – Camille, an intelligent woman – who actually would blog on Langar Hall. Ennis has linked to Langar Hall several times. These people call themselves progressives and they come across so generally. And they are smart, well-educated and reasonable. But when it comes to Sikh issues they have no qualms about associating themselves with such vicious, racist and violent voices. If anyone has any doubt I urge you to browse Langar Hall’s current posts as well as its archives. It’s teeming with false victimhood, racial superiority and Hindu bashing.
I have wondered about that too. Best case – the ambivalence is primarily for self preservation, I do not think anyone would want to risk spooking the kooks. I would never risk mine of my family to prove a point. Commentators are pretty much anonymous – bloggers are way too visible and hence more vulnerable.
I did not know about Ennis and Camille’s Langar Hall connection. 🙂 . Interesting 🙂
If “progressives” have their own “progressive-temples” – like orthodox temple and a heterodox temple – I wonder to which progressive temple these people will belong to. :). I would guess they would have to have their own “progressive” Dera, I do not think “progressive orthodoxy” would allow for the kind of orgy of hate mongering that we see on Langar Hall.
My point exactly! It’s so much more safer to go ballistic on the Indian government than pointing out the original and much worse evils of Khalistanis. Operation Blue Star is condemned no end but none of these same people had the balls to go after Bhindranwale and the Babbar Khalsas when they had been defiling Golden Temple for far too long before Blue Star. Also, it’s much safer to ridicule VHP, Bajrang Dal, Modi and other right-wing Hindu clowns as chaddiwalas e.t.c. than even raising a finger at the actually vindictive Khalistanis. Of course all this reinforces the false victimhood and the consequent justification of violence by Khalistanis. The so called moderate/progressives are most culpable.
I am happy to see the Khalistanis going the LTTE way.
My comments are in no way aimed at finding fault with Amardeep. I find him an exceptionally fair thinker.
I always find it funny how many jatts are quick to play the race card as soon as they get to the west, and yet at the same time complain about how there precious Punjab is being taken over by Chamars, Dalits and Bhayyas. Funny thing is these newcomers to Punjab make a much better effort to intergrate into punjabi society then jatts do in any western country they move too.
So one could conclude that this is not Sikh against Sikh, as much as Jatt Sikh against all non Jatt Sikhs, but in particular against Dalet ( Chammar) because of the perception of what a Chammar ( Which orginally meant Tanner, by the way)is.
Bit Like British Gentry looking down at Yokels
79 wanderer, Looks like a jati conflict to me, between the Jatt Sikhs vs Chamar Sikhs. It is about powerplay masquerading as orthodoxy vs heterodoxy.
Hey to be fair- its not just jatts.
Same is true for some Bongs – whining about Biharis and Marwaris ruining Calcutta, for Kannadigas complaining about ‘outsiders’ ruining the Bangaluru, for Tamilians bitching about just about anything under the sun.
Not just that but there’s a regular commenter here – Camille, an intelligent woman – who actually would blog on Langar Hall. Ennis has linked to Langar Hall several times. These people call themselves progressives and they come across so generally. And they are smart, well-educated and reasonable. But when it comes to Sikh issues they have no qualms about associating themselves with such vicious, racist and violent voices. If anyone has any doubt I urge you to browse Langar Hall’s current posts as well as its archives. It’s teeming with false victimhood, racial superiority and Hindu bashing.
Dara Singh, just to be clear, I do not agree with some of what is posted at The Langar Hall (and needless to say, they do not agree with me much of the time either. Just recently, they criticized me for my stance on the LTTE. And they have criticized me in the past as well.)
Linking to a blog does not mean endorsing it. It simply means that readers might find it interesting to read the post being linked to, whether or not they agree with it. Here, for instance, I linked to Jodha’s post, which I find unobjectionable — though I also stated my disagreement with his approach in the post above. I do not know which posts of Ennis’s you are thinking of, but I can say this: both Ennis and Camille are people who put pressure on some of the more conservative voices at The Langar Hall to engage in self-critique.
In short, I do not think you should condemn people by association — critique them for what they have actually said.
(Normally I would leave it to Ennis to defend himself, but he is traveling right now, and I don’t know how much he will be online.)
I am thinking Sonal Shah.
The hindu casteists never give up trying to defend this abominable system. FYI, 2500 years ago when India was even more agrarian Buddha rejected this brahminical perversion and under the buddhist king Asoka the Great India thrived as never before. There are no excuses whatsoever for this stupid and immoral system. The sheer stupidity and backwardness of indians clinging to such a discredited, inhumane sytem even while living in the modern West is really contemptible.
Basically it Ravidassia’s (Sikh Chamars) rioting. There are 3 main types of Sikhs: Jatts, Chamars and Khatri/Arora. Minor Sikh castes are Tharkan, Saini, Rajput, Komboh, Lubana etc. All these Sikh communities have a historical military background especially the Jatt, Chamar (Mazabhi/Ravidassia/Ramdasia/Adharmi) and Khatri (Kapoor, Chada, Bhatia).
Punjabi has a huge population of Dalits (35% of Punjab population) and they are rich, educated and politcally very influential. They also very active in the military/police and ten’s of thousands have immigrated to USA/UK/Canada/Europe/Middle East etc.
Punjabi Chamars follow a Sikh sect called the Ravidassia movement and they have countless temples all over the world, including many in USA, UK, Canada, Europe and Australia. They have huge deras in Punjab and U.P. Mayawati has contributed lots of money to this religious community. There is a Ravidassia temple in New York where thousands of punjabi dalits go every week. (Note countless Jatts, Rajputs and other upper castes also follow the Ravidassia Guru’s).
Guru Ravidas was from the Chamar caste and heavily influenced Guru Nanak and his teachings are in the Sikh Holy book. Guru Ravidass also influenced Mirabai. The Ravidassia movement has tensions with mainstream Sikhs who are mostly from the Jatt caste. This is because mainstream consider Ravidas as not as a Guru but a Bhagat.
In Vienna, the Ravidassia temple was in power struggle between the Jatts and Chamars on who controls the money from offerings. Previously, there was a Gurudwara that was controlled by Khalistani Jatt Sikhs however a few years ago the Chamars opened the Ravidassia Gurudwara. A lot of Sikhs who are not khalistanis started going to the Ravidassia Gurudwara. Also, the minor Sikh castes also started going. As you know the SIkh community is rich and they donate a lot of money to their temples. The Ravidassia temple started getting rich and this caused the Khalistani Jatts to attack the visiting Ravidassia Guru’s in a castiest/religous attack.
The riots are taking place in central punjab (Jalandhar, Phagwara, Hoshiarpur, Ludihana) and in these area’s Chamars form anywhere from 30%-60% of the population and is also the headquarters of the Ravidassia movement.
Also, these days very chamars are working for Jatts and a lot have succeeded due to reservations. This has caused extreme jealously among jatts.
Interesting post, Amardeep, it chimes in well with what I know of the Sikh community in the UK and in East Africa. Very thoughtful.
I think it might be less but will be between 25% and 29%. Along with West Bengal, Punjab has the highest concentration of SCs in India.
85 NYCHAMAR, Thanks for the explanation. This gives a pretty clear picture of the dynamics of this issue.
nychamar – thanks for the background info!
Haha, thanks for the shout-outs. The ‘kook’ makes his appearance here as well. If you can point to something I posted (yes, an actual post, not something of a commenter) where I indulged in racism or the like, point it out to me. We may have differences on the events of 1984 or even the subsequent violence that occurred in Punjab and that is fine. Here are some of my more recent writings on the issue. Find something ‘racist’ for me. However, it does seem the ‘litmus test’ of ‘racism’ is expectations of being ‘loyal’ and feeling a sense of nationalism towards the various states of South Asia. Sorry, I am not a nationalist.
Amardeep:
You raise some interesting points, but I do have some contentions. I think that there is the underlying issue of caste and in my post I was trying to raise some of those issues. However, to read these heterodox groups as some sort of Dalit assertion is also problematic. The leading sociologist on the issue of caste in Punjab, Surinder Jodhka would probably steer away from that conclusion. An anecdote in one of his papers following last year’s clashes with Dera Sacha Sauda is noteworthy:
Two French scholars that conducted field research last year following the Dera Sacha Sauda incidents – testing various hypothesis of causes:
However, they found:
You are correct, however, in that I do take inspiration from the Singh Sabha movement, but don’t believe that the Singh Sabha marks the ‘beginning’ of the ‘real tradition of Sikhi’ (I’ll spare the colonial and Oberoi conversation from the SM readership). You are right that I do believe that self-reflection and self-criticism is the starting point for Sikhs.
Now granted my next set of comments are limited to my experiences working with the diasporan Sikh community, namely in California. I have actively worked with members and leaders of the Guru Ravidas Sabha in Pittsburgh, Roseville, and Fresno. Amongst the youth, especially born in the US, many have a genuine interest in ‘joining that program’, although elders in the community and many in the ‘privileged Sikh community’ may not feel that way. I have always worked with to unite and with an inclusive framework through it. I think that you can take a double approach. You can genuinely negotiate on certain differences of praxis, but work towards the ending of ‘institutionalized’ caste as can be seen in caste-based Gurdwaras (much more common in the UK than in the US). Amongst many of the youth that attend the Guru Ravidas Sabha, this is an option. How the ‘privileged’ Sikh community’s willingness to reciprocate is still uncertain on those differences of praxis. In terms of general doxy or dogma that which unites far outweighs that which divides.
And on your last point, to narrowly focus only on the injustices of others is probably not healthy, but to avoid that conversation is probably not realistic either. I agree at times the conversation may be too one-sided, but I hope the alternative is not its complete dismissal.
Hi all I was waiting to see when sepia would start a discussion on this. Anyhow, meanwhile I had been following the discussion at WSJ Opinion Forum, where one remark had quickly turned an intra-sikh issue to a Hindu vs Muslim vs Sikh (3 way) worthless argument. Feel free to visit there and see how it is easy to kill each other at the slightest pretext. Of course that is if NK or Iran does nt “test” their weapons on far away lands just by firing missiles.
So the crux of the problem with Sikhism (in the diaspora) is that they are too attached to cultural symbols, religious rituals, leaders etc. and from what I make out from some of the above comments and the post is that the orthodox/traditional Sikhs can’t tolerate any challenges or fluidity in interpretations ? To add to the cauldron, in the sub-continent there is the added socio-economic issue of access to education/political/economic resources.
Does this make the present and on coming months a bad time to take a Punjabi child from the west ( who may be Jatt or Chamar) to Punjab for a visit? Is it that dangerous there that merely being one or the other can lead to violence??
http://apnaorg.com/research-papers/harish-1/
Very relevant link to read related to all this
Perhaps this is what Yogi Bhajan branched out and created his E3 and Kundalini yoga paradigm.
And perhaps orthodox Sikhs need to do some of that yoga because it really chills you out and the Kundalini yoga peeps are real chill and friendly, live and let live types.
Sat Naam
admittedly i am not very close to the desi community in general – but i have heard a different version of the above. the doaba region (including the cities you list) has a high number of chamars. they have also immigrated in large numbers to the uk, canada and the us. the money they repatriated has given a voice to their respective communities and that is what we are hearing now. i have also heard that the strife overseas is because the power dynamic is not caste-based as in the old world – i.e. in some cases jatts are workign alongside and for chamars.. hence the issues.
i mean no disrespect, but please clarify this for me – is it offensive to state oneself or someone as being of the ‘chamar’ caste? unlike ‘jatt’, ‘chamar’ seems to be a descriptor based on profession as someone pointed out – and a profession not held in particularly high regard. i repeated the caste-name because the bloggers have used it freely so far – but can one use the same language in everyday conversations? would dalit be more acceptable?
I think they may prfer Dalit..or even better, human..
Time magazine has an interesting synopsis to the current events.
Let me also quote NYT article for inquiry about the motive:
The difference between Ravidass and traditional Sikh organization is not new, has been longstanding, but has seldom lead to violence, except last year over the incident of dressing like Guru Gobind Singh by one of the Dera leader. Also, Ravidass strong grass root support amongst dalit sikhs and non-sikhs has now been growing for a while.
There has been violence within other Sikh organizations in past.
I think here it leads to one thing……….money (the loss of revenue of the older Gurudwara due to popularity of new Ravidass temple), and power struggle for money grab. I think this needs to be investigated thoroughly is the politics of money grab in religious institutions in general, and its real pernicious methids.
Yes and no I would say. It pretty much can be used as an insult; it was a rebuke a of the older people in my family used to say to scold us when we were doing something they didn’t like or disapproved of – usually related to not cleaning ourselves properly or messy eating habits. I have heard it used as an insult in a number of different contexts as well; though less so these days.
In sociological or descriptive terms I would say it is suitable to use as a way of describing a caste group or affiliation; I wouldn’t use it verbally otherwise though. I think people from the community are divided on the issue themselves; some want to distance themselves from the term, others want to reclaim it by using it.
These things can end up touching raw nerves or for political symbolism – as we saw from the token banning (useless imo) of Aaj Nachle in UP theatres because of supposedly derogatory lyrics in one of the songs.
A man is rescued from a desert island after 20 years. The news media, amazed at this feat of survival, ask him to show them his home.
“How did you survive? How did you keep sane?” they ask him, as he shows them around the small island.
“I had my faith. My faith as a Jew kept me strong. Come.”
He leads them to a small glen, where stands an opulent synagogue, made entirely from palm fronds, coconut shells and woven grass. The news cameras take pictures of everything — even a torah made from banana leaves and written in octopus ink.
“This took me five years to complete.”
“Amazing! And what did you do for the next fifteen years?”
“Come with me.”
He leads them around to the far side of the island. There, in a shady grove, is an even more beautiful synagogue.
“This one took me twelve years to complete!”
“But sir” asks the reporter, “Why did you build two temples?”
“This is the shul I attend. That other place? Hah! I wouldn’t set foot in that other synagogue if you PAID me!”