Reading about the violence at a Sikh Gurdwara in Vienna, Austria, last weekend, and now the subsequent, extremely dangerous riots in Punjab, leaves me feeling sad though not particularly surprised.
In Austria, the violence occurred at a Gurdwara founded by members of a sect called Dera Sach Khand, a group I hadn’t heard of before this incident occurred; they are followers of Ravidas, a religious teacher from roughly the same period as official Sikhism’s founder, Guru Nanak. Ravidas was from the Chamar caste, and as I understand it most Ravidasias in Punjab today are from that caste as well. (Wikipedia describes their places of worship as “Gurdeheras” rather than “Gurdwaras,” so perhaps it might be more accurate to say that the violence at the temple in Vienna took place at a Ravidasi Gurdehera, rather than a Sikh Gurdwara.)
It is not clear to me how many followers they have, though I have read estimates that Punjab has a disproportionately high Dalit population (nearly 30%), and it is possible that some of those rioting in places like Jalandhar are not specifically followers of this sect, but rather Dalits who are rioting against what they perceive as caste violence. (See pictures at the BBC)
There is also a second, properly orthodox Sikh Gurdwara in Vienna, which has been described as being controlled by hardliners who support the idea of an independent Sikh homeland (Khalistan).
Details from the news reports have been sketchy. I do not know in very much detail how the hostility between these two groups reached this level, though I can imagine a narrative that led to these events, based on what I’ve seen here in the U.S. The original Gurdwara was dominated by hardliners, which is not all that surprising: they were the ones who cared enough about the religion to invest the resources to open a temple in Austria to begin with. Most of the sangat (the congregation) were religiously moderate, and many would be clean-shaven, to fit in better in Austrian society. Some may not have come from orthodox backgrounds in India (i.e., Dera sects), and a few may not have identified publicly as Sikhs before they left India. Judging from the Sikhs I encountered on a visit to France a few years ago, most of the community would be working class, employed in service at restaurants, small businesses, and various kinds of “informal” labor. But despite the complexity of their background and fragility of their connection to the Sikh tradition, the people who were attending the kirtan and bhog (services) each week did not hear very much that related directly to their lives or backgrounds. They continued to attend because this weekly ritual constituted their only opportunity to experience a sense of community with other Indian immigrants.
Then, when a new temple opens, many of the heterodox members of the congregation jump at the chance for a different kind of experience. The new temple is run by heterodox Ravidasias, who do things slightly differently than in the orthodox Sikh Gurduwara. Some of the congegants at the new temple are themselves Ravidasias, but perhaps there are non-Ravidasias, who don’t care that much anyway that there are pictures of some unfamiliar people on the walls, or some lines changed in the prescribed prayers. At least here they do not feel marginal in the same way.
The loss of popularity infuriates the leadership of the first, orthodox Gurdwara, and when a prominent leader of the Dera Sach Khand sect in India comes to Vienna for a visit, they go to exact their revenge. The result is that the visiting leader is shot dead on the floor of the Gurdwara/Gurdehera, and more deaths in the riots in Punjab that follow. Also: several men are critically wounded in the melee, there are unforunate news headlines around the world, and finally, there is a fledgling, fragile Sikh community in Vienna that is left shattered. No one is probably going to be going to either of these Gurdwaras again for months — and more than a few will probably never go back.
As I say, some of what I have written above is speculative, though it is based on real facts from various news sources. It is also only a slight variation on the factionalism I’ve seen in many places in the U.S.
For example, when I lived in Durham, North Carolina, a place where there were very few Sikhs, I was shocked to learn that there were actually two Gurdwaras in the town — one, more moderate but also heterodox, and the other more “kattar” — founded by orthodox Sikhs, who encouraged orthodoxy in constituents. (They were good people — many are friends — but the point is that even in this small community the differences mattered enough that one house of worship could not contain them.) There are similar stories of factionalism in the Washington DC area, where I grew up, as well as in the Philadelphia area, where I live now — and indeed, all over the diaspora.
On a personal note, though I was aware of the factionalism as a child and teenager growing up in the DC area, I didn’t grow up knowing about the caste stuff, or the different Sikh sects that have been in the news in recent years. On caste, the Sikh community in Maryland that I knew were mainly non-Jats, though I didn’t really know that at the time, because no one talked about it. But I also realize now that the community I grew up around were also predominantly from upper caste and privileged backgrounds, which is why we never heard of the Dera sects, like Dera Sacha Sauda (see this blog post from May 2007), or now, Dera Sach Khand. In short, it may be that no one paid much attention to caste because everyone we knew were from privileged castes. Our privilege may have made it easier to adhere to the anti-caste rebellion that inspired the first Sikh Gurus, and that was re-kindled by the Singh Sabha movement in the latter years of the British Raj.
Incidentally, I would recommend curious readers to an interesting post up about this at the Sikh blog, The Langar Hall. Clearly, along with everything else that is happening in the Sikh community, there is now a serious contest for adherents roughly under the banner of the Sikh tradition running along caste lines. For orthodox Sikhs like Jodha at the Langar Hall, the answer is a form of sincere self-criticism something like this: “we need to be true to the real tradition of Sikhism since the Singh Sabha movement, which is anti-caste and anti-sect, and do a better job of being inclusive.” I admire that sentiment. But the SC/OBC followers of these Dera sects clearly have not been interested in joining that program, and have instead begun asserting their caste identity via the heterodox Dera sects, in ways that make orthodox Sikhs very uncomfortable (or angry).
It isn’t great, but it’s reality, and I don’t know if yet another call to be better about finally abolishing caste will stop caste-based movements from continuing to assert themselves against the dominant tradition. I do not claim to know how the Sikh community can solve this problem, but I do think that the old, familiar idealism is going to be less effective in the long run than a pragmatic willingness to negotiate and compromise with the people with whom one may disagree.
It may also be time to spend less energy worrying about injustices historically committed against Sikhs, and more time thinking about injustices committed by some Sikhs against other Sikhs — as well as injustices against non-Sikhs in the surrounding community (in this case, the lower caste groups in Punjab).
Thanks for writing about this…I was curious when I saw this on the BBC and how it reverberated in India. Be really interested in reading the comments. I have such a wonderful view of Sikhism (it is one of the few religions I would think of converting to if it was required in a relationship) and hate to see the religion soiled by casteism. Also just a sidenote I love Hinduism too b/c the movements that extirpate castism mark my experience with Hinduism and my identity as a Hindu. Caste discrimination isn’t in any way a definition of Hinduism is for me in the same way that racial discrimination doesn’t define Christianity for me.
I don’t think there is a single South Asian, in South Asia that is, that does not think in terms of social stratefication via caste – no matter what the religion. That is just the reality of life there and has been for eons. One could make the argument that there is not a single US citizen that does not think in terms of race, as well, and they would probably be right.
Humans like to categorize themselves and each other. I think its in our genetic code.
amardeep – the langar hall link needs an update. good post btw.
Not just race but socio-economic background too. Imagine a White guy going to an upscale bistro in flannel and a trucker hat speaking with a country accent. Picture how you would expect him to be treated.
If I say the name “Cletus” what pops into your mind? How different is this from any other kind of caste discrimination? Theoretically there is enough social mobility for them to ascend the socio-economic ladder and “class” themselves up, but really how likely is that to happen? And even if it does you can bet that guy who makes it out of the trailer park is going to end up raising kids who talk with a TV accent and pop their damn collars.
i think it’s in our social conditioning, in the sense that almost every culture is wedded to these sorts of differences, although they may manifest themselves differently in heterogeneous and homogeneous societies. moreover, these tendencies to classify are, to a great extent, to give a sense of superiority (because what’s the point of being different if that difference does not give one an advantage 😉 ) but e.g. cosmopolitanists (and other theorists) would beg to differ and would say that the base point is that of humanity, of individuals, rather then their ethnic, religious, national etc markers.
amardeep – great post. it’s interesting to see how such differences sustain themselves, or can be hidden or magnified, in the diaspora. and how much the second generations can pick up on these differences and view them in the same way that their parents do.
Another source of angst in punjab (when i last visited) were the migrant workers from Bihar and jharkhand who had recently converted to sikhism. they are not well accepted into the older communities and they are gravitating to the populist movements in order to best assert themselves against the status quo. btw – though punjab is prodigiously rich, the migrants live in squalor and you’d see urchins picking pieces of metal or plastic from the streets to sell as scrap. this is an observer’s pov from a short visit – but i’d appreciate your insights or counterpoints.
‘Can we all get along?’ I’ve been meaning to research this all weekend. Thanks for the post.
Khoofi, thanks, I fixed it.
Seeker of Truth, yes, and I wouldn’t want to single out the Sikhs on caste questions.
In fact, one could make an analogous argument about caste-based reservations in India more broadly. The upper castes want to say, “ok, we regret caste discrimination in the past. But can’t we abolish these awful reservations? Aren’t they just making caste feelings worse?” Meanwhile, SC and OBC groups, once they started flexing major political muscle, have been in no mood to rethink reservations or downplay caste — they have numbers and organization. (I did hear that many Dalits whose votes Mayawati was expecting in the recent election went with Congress instead — so perhaps that phenomenon may be changing again. Or perhaps it was just Mayawati who turned them off temporarily.)
As I understand it, most of Punjab’s wealth comes from high returns to agriculture. So while it is very rich by Indian standards it is economically not all that developed. If you have a big migrant population you need industry to employ them. Migrant laborers on farms only work when you have enormous plantations (like with tea) rather than the relatively smaller scale agricultural holdings in Punjab. Of course, even on tea plantations the farm hands will be treated like crap. That’s just a reality of agricultural labor.
At the end of the day I think it was a “What have you done for me lately?” deal. Mayawati likes to build grandiose shrines for Ambedkar and promote her cohorts to office, but the Congress party successfully put a lot of people on the dole through the NREG scheme. Most of the post-election commentary I’ve seen seems to attribute the Congress win to the NREG program. Given benefits that accrue to Dalit leaders versus benefits, however meager, that accrue to the voters on the ground I think the choice would be clear.
Of course, the implementation of the NREG has been insanely corrupt and has probably shifted necessary resources away from crucial long-term investments like healthcare and education in favor of simple cash transfers, but since when have democracies ever been any good at taking the long-view?
Yoga Fire… please. there’s much more to punjab than farming which btw is heavily industrialized (and chemically enhanced). you even have combines etc working the larger farms. the migrant workers we speak of are largely employed as ‘dehadi’ [day-wage] workers by the industrial sector. punjab is largely an agrarian economy but that includes agro-based industries – like sugar, dairy and textiles. plus there is a lot of entrepreneurial zeal with a large number of smb’s all around.
How sad. The victims are in my thoughts and prayers, and I hope the riots are calmed down quickly.
IF you’re doing religion, and you’re killing people not in self-defense, you’re doing it wrong.
Khoofi, Give me a break. Yeah, Japan–merely “rich,” whilst Punjab needs the added “prodigiously rich.” You are high on meth right now, right?
Amardeep–thanks for the thoughtful and detailed post.
Just learnt some new things about Punjab. I’ll have to research this Guru Ravidas on a lazy weekend (we share the same birthday, but he is interesting for other reasons). It seems that his was a call for emancipation. Other than that, his religious ideas are a mix of the religious ferment in North India at the time.
“I don’t think there is a single South Asian, in South Asia that is, that does not think in terms of social stratefication via caste – no matter what the religion”
Speak for yourself.
the angst i spoke of earlier related to the fears of the old-sikh community at being swamped out in punjab. the (old-) hindu population is pretty significant – and a fair number of them part of the reformist arya samaj movement. but the hostility towards the migrant workers has strong parallels to what california sees towards mexican workers.
Of course there is industry there, but as a percentage of the total economy it is comparatively smaller than the other rich states in India and much of the capital for those industries comes from the high returns to agriculture. It takes a lot of time for other major sectors of the economy to get built up to a point where those migrants can aspire for their kids to be salary-men.
The upper castes want to say, “ok, we regret caste discrimination in the past. But can’t we abolish these awful reservations? Aren’t they just making caste feelings worse?” Meanwhile, SC and OBC groups, once they started flexing major political muscle, have been in no mood to rethink reservations or downplay caste
I don’t know very much about reservations in India and a caste that is OBC in one area may not be in another, and then reservations also include religious groups, especially Muslims in different regions who have fallen behind socioeconomically for many reasons. But I’ve often thought that eliminating reservations might help take out the presence of caste in India and instead we should be investing in communities whether religious or caste-based that need better schools and such and education to end caste discrimination; But I’d have to do more research on how the reservations work, whether certain religious groups or castes have scores or standards that are lower and what is the nature of the continuing discrimination based on religion or caste. I’m against affirmative action based on race in the US…having lived here I believe a wealthy black person has as much opporutnity as Indians and other Asians in succeeding…none of us have white privilege but money and/or stability does bring opportunity in socially mobile US.
unless there is some power play ( access to education, political and economic opportunities) or plain injustices I don’t see any reason why “cultural differences” (diversity) between groups/factions have to descent to such low depths….maybe south-asians should tune themselves to the concept of healthy rivalry.
This is really a conflict between jats and chamars. In other words, if it is caste conflict it is one between low caste ex-hindu jat sudras and outcaste ex-hindu chamar untouchables. There are very few sikhs who are descended from the hindu upper castes, though they dishonestly like to claim otherwise. It is very obvious that the true villains here are the orthodox khalistani jat sikhs. The increasing power and prosperity of the untouchables in Punjab must be a threat to their chauvinism.
Are you implying that non-South-Asians enjoy healthy rivalries?
Have you ever been to a Red Sox game?
The way this reads, Amardeep, is that the orthodox sikhs are actually anti-caste, but the heterodox group has a caste identity, albeit of low castes, ie the very castes who presumably have the most to gain from the destruction of caste. So they create their own group only to be met with deadly violence, partially motivated by anti-castism fervor, as oppossed to anti-dalit (and/or OBC) prejudice or jat pride.
did i get that right?
Here is the sad story of the effect of green-revolution on Punjab from the recent issue of National geographic The End of Plenty. So the richness may be very illusionary in terms of socio-economic development.
sorry about some statements above that were based largely on my limited personal interactions. there is some data in the attached doc by singh, singh and ghuman on the patterns of migration. We are talkign about an annual input of about 2M people in a state of population 25M. The sikh population is about 60% but its growth rate likely does not match up to the growth patterns from the non-sikh (hindu?) migrant communities. anyhow – i am totally digressing from the main topic. so will beg off. i did want to emphasize this point that the issue is not purely a caste-based issue. there is some tension around migrant workers who are finding their own voice.
Damn it can the Gods not cut our country a break for once!?
Punjab’s per capita income is around R 30,000, or way less than $1000/year. It is stooopid to call that rich, much less prodiguously rich. It is poor even by third world standards. Even within India itself there are states such as Goa with higher per capita incomes than Punjab.
The way this reads, Amardeep, is that the orthodox sikhs are actually anti-caste, but the heterodox group has a caste identity, albeit of low castes, ie the very castes who presumably have the most to gain from the destruction of caste. So they create their own group only to be met with deadly violence, partially motivated by anti-castism fervor, as oppossed to anti-dalit (and/or OBC) prejudice or jat pride.
Manju, well the part I left unsaid is that the anti-caste attitude of the orthodox Sikhs in the diaspora is self-serving, because orthodox Sikhs in the diaspora overwhelmingly come from upper caste groups.
So there is a premise that the anti-caste rhetoric is largely lip-service. When it comes to who actually has power in these Gurdwaras and what is sayable in the political speeches that often follow kirtan and precede bhog, there are very real limits. Power is not really shared, and marginal groups are not really included.
(In the past I have also made a similar argument about the status of women in the Sikh community. In principle/ideally there is gender equality prescribed by the faith. In actuality, the number of women who become formally certified granthis or gyanis is minuscule. And yet, few people complain about it.)
Thank you Amardeep for the information and your views. Society has a way of creating and destroying class differences. The geographical or ethnical differences does not have much differeces when it comes to these practices. The principled individuals and institutions should work to find ways to destroy these beliefs that carry over generations. Class systems that do not offer mobility for an individual over a life term should be condemned and dealt with systematically. One effective way that governments can deal with the situation is to create heavy taxes on transfer of wealth thru estate. Savings of parents should not be going to their kids. This will improve economy and reduce generational class differences. The kids of rich parents do get better education and upbringing, but that incentive should be there for the people. Separation of state and church has not happened fully in India and it really did not exist in India in our parents’s childhood. The religious extremism and its violent effects are more in South Asia,as it is taking the baby steps in that separation.
And when that fails, just shoot everyone who wears eyeglasses.
Nice post Amardeep. But I think this caste thing deserves a serious re-think and it is up to the likes of you to do it. Everything in India currently seems to be defined by caste. This simply cannot be the case but because it is the quickest and easiest answer everyone seems to fall for it. It would be nice if someone attempted to dig a little deeper. For example, instead of saying upper caste and lower caste, can this not be discussed in terms of SES? Notice how on SM people claim that they don’t care about caste when it comes to issues such as marriage. Now frame it in terms of SES and all of a sudden you’ll have a population of zero who could honestly make this claim. This is just one example. You can make a similar case for all other features of caste, whether it relates to food habits, orthodoxy, or anything else. By doing this, it will be easier to get to the heart of the problem rather than simply saying this is a caste matter. Also, people will no longer make ridiculous suggestions such as “we can solve the problem by getting rid of SES.”
Maybe because the ‘church’ in India is relatively small. Does not the fact that you referred to the principle as one between ‘church’ and state perhaps imply that maybe porting Western European ideals of how to organize a state wholesale and without revision might not be the optimal choice?
But. . .I want to be able to bequeath something to my kids. Ideally they’d be able to have enough money to where they can enter whatever discipline or field of work to which they feel a calling rather than having to join a rat-race just for the money.
What do you mean “mobility?” Social? Economic? Prestige? Political power? The best government can do and the most it should do is ensure the people under its charge have the means and opportunities to adequately meet their basic needs and acquire a proper education. Meddling in people’s lives anywhere beyond that just guarantees that society gets pulled this way and that by activists of every stripe who prefer to enforce a rigid, stifling, bureaucratic, and fundamentally dehumanizing homogeneity on the world in the name of “fairness.”
I actually thought that use of the term “prodigiously rich” here was rather good, because I was thinking that the word “prodigious” had some relationship to the word “prodigal.” I was put in mind of some readings I did this semester, in particular Thomas Metcalf’s “Imperial Connections,” which describes how during the height of the British Empire many Sikhs and other men from the Punjab were employed as soldiers and policemen all over the empire and that the remittances they sent home and the pensions they settled with upon retirement concentrated substantial wealth in the region, relative to other parts of India. Of course, prodigal and prodigious aren’t exactly the same, but it is interesting to see how there are various perceptions as to current economic conditions in the Punjab. Thanks also for the insight into the probable causes of this troubling transnational development…
Being an American born Sikh [jatt, fyi] I always assumed that the caste systems that invovled the chamaars were only in the Hindu religion. From what I could understand from my parents, the “caste” system in Sikh communities was not religious but cultural, i.e., what ancestors did for a living. Because of that, I only know about the few backgrounds of the people I grew up with, jatts, kshytris, takhans [farmers, warriors, merchants]. I had never met any Sikhs that were chamaars, until high school. Even then though, I was told that because of the 11th guru that Sikh chamaars believe in, they may not necessarily consider themselves Sikh or Hindu. Also, the names of these individuals I met were usually Hindu versus traditional Sikh names. Also I had noticed that they did not usually include Singh or Kaur as either a middle or last name. I can understand the confusion, I, and possibly many others growing up outside of India, may not be able to comprehend the necessity to divide along these lines. Whenever I asked my mom to explain she said that is how it is, period. Even to this day, after 25 years in America, my mother threatens my siblings and I in regards to marrying non-Jatt, he or she must be Jatt. Both my parents stressed that a major part of Sikhism preaching is to disregard caste or socio-economic issues that separate poeple, but had steoreotypes they could not let go of. I do understand that some prefer to belong to a community and/or marry within the same caste or background because it is fimiliar, but I do not see any justification in segregation. Especially if Sikhism was meant to erase lines and give voice to those being downtrodden. I definitely hope to see more discussion on this.
What’s the difference?
I would be interested in a reference to the chapter(s) and verse(s) which says that Sikhism is “anti-caste” and “anti-sect” if anyone knows of it. I’m willing to buy that the Sikh founders were anti-discrimination based on caste, but I cannot believe they were anti-caste considering they all married within their castes among other things. The anti-caste notion seems to be a modern day parroting of something learned.
Yoga Fire – from what I understand from my own personal research and from what my parents had explained to me, the doctrines of Sikhism do not include any caste sysytem, they actually advocate no caste, that all Sikhs, men and women, are equal. On the other hand, the caste system is part of the Hindu religion. The caste system in Skih faith is an issue of culture versu religion. There were cultural identities and traditions in place before many adopted the Sikh faith, that those individuals may still adhere here to. For example, considering a day more holy than another, or worrying about your feet facing a holy object – these customs are nor practiced in the Sikh religion – but people cling to them culturally.
It is interesting and noteworthy that jats are seen as “upper caste” by sikhs even though they are low caste in the hindu caste system. In states like UP, Bihar, Delhi, Rajasthan, Gujarat, Maharashtra, Andhra Pradesh etc, jats are classified as OBCs:http://www.greatjat.com/status_table.php
It is also interesting to note that Punjab has the highest proportion of dalits/untouchables in India, about 30%, which is almost double the national average.
Aren’t all congregational religions technically anti-sect anyway? If you’re going to insist on there being one God and one Truth it doesn’t make sense to allow your congregation to split apart into differing interpretations of the Truth.
Caste is one of those things that have historically been thrown out there by subcontinental Muslims, Sikhs, and Christians as a way to say “Look, we’re not like those Hindoos. We don’t believe in that stuff!”
Sure it’s demonstrably false in all three cases, but when I hear people declare that “‘we’ don’t believe in caste”–especially with that haughty tone I have sometimes heard used–I get the distinct impression that Hindus are being thrown under the bus in a way not unlike what is described in “How the Irish Became White.” Essentially it’s a way to curry (no pun intended) favor for your minority group from the mainstream by denigrating or drawing distinctions with another in the hopes that it will disassociate you from the negative prejudices attributed to them.
This doesn’t apply to anyone in this thread (so far), but it’s out there.
If you were actually interested in the truth you could have simply googled and found the answer in seconds. Like Buddha the sikh gurus also rejected the hindu caste system:
http://www.sikhiwiki.org/index.php/Caste_System
“A total rejection of the caste system is a typical feature of the Sikh tradition. Sikhism in fact originated as a voice of protest against the many prevalent ills of contemporary Indian society. The caste system was the most damaging and debilitating of them. It completely negated the humanitarian and egalitarian principles, fundamental to the Sikh creed. Guru Nanak, founder of Sikhism, and his nine spiritual successors strongly attacked the system. The advent of Sikhism in the midst of caste rigidities and superstitions was truly a radical beginning.
The process of the creation of a sovereign, autonomous society, the Sikh Panth, had started in the day of Guru Nanak himself. He had begun his career as a teacher of men with the significant utterance, “There is no Hindu, no Mussalman,†and took clear-cut practical steps towards moulding a society of Sikhs (literally disciples) on independent ideological lines. He specifically condemned caste and caste ideology as perverse, and rejected the authority of the Vedas and supremacy of the Brahmans. On caste, he said:
Meaningless is caste and meaningless (caste) names, The same shadow protects all beings
SGGS page 83
Discern the light; do not enquire (one’s) caste; There is no caste in the hereafter
SGGS page 349
Do not enquire about (one’s) caste and birth Preach the True Sastra Caste and honour are determined by deeds
SGGS page 1330
If idea of impurity be admitted, there is impurity in everything There are worms in cow-dung and in wood; There is no grain of corn without life, In the first place, there is life in water By which everything is made green. How can impurity be avoided? It enters our very kitchens. Impurity is not washed away thus, O Nanak; It is washed by divine knowledge. . . All impurity supposedly contagious Consists in superstition. . . Those who have, through the Guru, understood Suffer no contamination
SGGS page 472)
This has nothing to do with Sikhism, but the older caste prejudices that never leave…despite Sikhs saying they are egalitarian, caste always comes in the way..sad but true
Gobind is Prema.
It may also be time to spend less energy worrying about injustices historically committed against Sikhs, and more time thinking about injustices committed by some Sikhs against other Sikhs — as well as injustices against non-Sikhs in the surrounding community (in this case, the lower caste groups in Punjab).
That will be the day. Most sikh’s in the west will spend 23 hours 59 minutes days talking about 1984, but one minute talking about caste, the male female/male birth ratio, spousal abuse, all the abandoned brides, immigration fraud and other issues that effect sikhs.
I’m just curious as to how you’re drawing this bold line between “religion” and “culture.” If a norm is practices by the vast majority of adherents of a religion then in what capacity is it not “religious?” Nowhere in the Bible does it say that you should cross yourself before invoking the trinity, but if you see someone doing so would you say it’s not a religious thing?
In fact, nowhere in the Bible does it mention the Trinity either, so by your formulation I would have to conclude that a major cornerstone of Catholic teaching is just cultural rather than religious, but that would be silly.
In what sense would you say the “caste system is part of the Hindu religion?” I mean, the religion has its roots in pre-historic times. It didn’t fall from the sky. It lives and was shaped by the needs of the Hindus.
Yes it is cultural…That’s how deep rooted caste is..Jat’s are a political majority and can’t call themselves Jats without the obvious conclusion, if one is a jat, everyone else must be something else..Add to that that most of these dalits are from outside Punjab and can’t speak Punjabi ( much like our parents generation that came to the west and could not speak English) and the case for hatred increases. Locals can’t get jobs..the Punjabi language has been for decades under threat from Hindi, English and Urdu..before you know it the Jats are behaving just like the British did when Windrush came over to the UK and ironcially mostly Punjabis immigrated from South Asia..
Don’t focus on Sikhism, that is clear in its anti caste message..focus on economics, politics and deeply ingrained caste issues, which indeed began with Hindu beliefs, but it is all to easy to play Hinduism for a Punjabi problem, where Singh id King actually means Jat is King..
I was told that in 1984 Delhi Riots that left over 3000 sikhs dead that most of them belong to kshytris, takhans, arora’s and khatris caste and all the problems being caused in punjab were by jatt sikhs. Does anybody know if that true or not.
What happened to Guru Gulab Khatri, Jai Singh, TheKingSingh and that Roma lady who married a Sardarji?
@36 · sd on May 26, 2009 02:35 PM
The doctrinal elements of Sikhism seem plainly anti-caste, from the very beginning with Guru Nanak. I’m told this foundational equality did not hold up to cultural pressures over time. But since I have limited knowledge, I don’t know how true that is. Could it be that just as Christianity contained elements of Judaism, and Islam contained elements of both, that because Sikhism came out of Hinduism in some respects, that in spite of rejecting religious sanctioning of Varna Dharma caste it still crept into the religious aspect? How egalitarian are the granths? TY.
Thought-provoking and memory-inducing (for a few years at UC Davis, South Asian cultural shows were suspended because of a notorious incident involving pro-Khalistan protesters; there were caste-related tensions within my Sikh circle of friends, as well). Thank you for posting this.
Several years ago there was a stabbing in Gurdwara here in the Vancouver area when they were fighting over tables and chairs and the police had to be called and the image of sikhs fighting each other on the local news did not make the community look good. But moderates and Pro-Khalistan sikhs have been fighting each other for power of all the main gurdwara’s here for almost 2 decades. There have been endless amount of lawsuits over who could vote in local elections and voter fraud among other thing. Some reports have even come that some of the gurdwara board members have used punjabi gang thugs as muscle to rough up the other side.
Thanks for the Prema-alert Amitabh. I won’t bother responding.