Reading about the violence at a Sikh Gurdwara in Vienna, Austria, last weekend, and now the subsequent, extremely dangerous riots in Punjab, leaves me feeling sad though not particularly surprised.
In Austria, the violence occurred at a Gurdwara founded by members of a sect called Dera Sach Khand, a group I hadn’t heard of before this incident occurred; they are followers of Ravidas, a religious teacher from roughly the same period as official Sikhism’s founder, Guru Nanak. Ravidas was from the Chamar caste, and as I understand it most Ravidasias in Punjab today are from that caste as well. (Wikipedia describes their places of worship as “Gurdeheras” rather than “Gurdwaras,” so perhaps it might be more accurate to say that the violence at the temple in Vienna took place at a Ravidasi Gurdehera, rather than a Sikh Gurdwara.)
It is not clear to me how many followers they have, though I have read estimates that Punjab has a disproportionately high Dalit population (nearly 30%), and it is possible that some of those rioting in places like Jalandhar are not specifically followers of this sect, but rather Dalits who are rioting against what they perceive as caste violence. (See pictures at the BBC)
There is also a second, properly orthodox Sikh Gurdwara in Vienna, which has been described as being controlled by hardliners who support the idea of an independent Sikh homeland (Khalistan).
Details from the news reports have been sketchy. I do not know in very much detail how the hostility between these two groups reached this level, though I can imagine a narrative that led to these events, based on what I’ve seen here in the U.S. The original Gurdwara was dominated by hardliners, which is not all that surprising: they were the ones who cared enough about the religion to invest the resources to open a temple in Austria to begin with. Most of the sangat (the congregation) were religiously moderate, and many would be clean-shaven, to fit in better in Austrian society. Some may not have come from orthodox backgrounds in India (i.e., Dera sects), and a few may not have identified publicly as Sikhs before they left India. Judging from the Sikhs I encountered on a visit to France a few years ago, most of the community would be working class, employed in service at restaurants, small businesses, and various kinds of “informal” labor. But despite the complexity of their background and fragility of their connection to the Sikh tradition, the people who were attending the kirtan and bhog (services) each week did not hear very much that related directly to their lives or backgrounds. They continued to attend because this weekly ritual constituted their only opportunity to experience a sense of community with other Indian immigrants.
Then, when a new temple opens, many of the heterodox members of the congregation jump at the chance for a different kind of experience. The new temple is run by heterodox Ravidasias, who do things slightly differently than in the orthodox Sikh Gurduwara. Some of the congegants at the new temple are themselves Ravidasias, but perhaps there are non-Ravidasias, who don’t care that much anyway that there are pictures of some unfamiliar people on the walls, or some lines changed in the prescribed prayers. At least here they do not feel marginal in the same way.
The loss of popularity infuriates the leadership of the first, orthodox Gurdwara, and when a prominent leader of the Dera Sach Khand sect in India comes to Vienna for a visit, they go to exact their revenge. The result is that the visiting leader is shot dead on the floor of the Gurdwara/Gurdehera, and more deaths in the riots in Punjab that follow. Also: several men are critically wounded in the melee, there are unforunate news headlines around the world, and finally, there is a fledgling, fragile Sikh community in Vienna that is left shattered. No one is probably going to be going to either of these Gurdwaras again for months — and more than a few will probably never go back.
As I say, some of what I have written above is speculative, though it is based on real facts from various news sources. It is also only a slight variation on the factionalism I’ve seen in many places in the U.S.
For example, when I lived in Durham, North Carolina, a place where there were very few Sikhs, I was shocked to learn that there were actually two Gurdwaras in the town — one, more moderate but also heterodox, and the other more “kattar” — founded by orthodox Sikhs, who encouraged orthodoxy in constituents. (They were good people — many are friends — but the point is that even in this small community the differences mattered enough that one house of worship could not contain them.) There are similar stories of factionalism in the Washington DC area, where I grew up, as well as in the Philadelphia area, where I live now — and indeed, all over the diaspora.
On a personal note, though I was aware of the factionalism as a child and teenager growing up in the DC area, I didn’t grow up knowing about the caste stuff, or the different Sikh sects that have been in the news in recent years. On caste, the Sikh community in Maryland that I knew were mainly non-Jats, though I didn’t really know that at the time, because no one talked about it. But I also realize now that the community I grew up around were also predominantly from upper caste and privileged backgrounds, which is why we never heard of the Dera sects, like Dera Sacha Sauda (see this blog post from May 2007), or now, Dera Sach Khand. In short, it may be that no one paid much attention to caste because everyone we knew were from privileged castes. Our privilege may have made it easier to adhere to the anti-caste rebellion that inspired the first Sikh Gurus, and that was re-kindled by the Singh Sabha movement in the latter years of the British Raj.
Incidentally, I would recommend curious readers to an interesting post up about this at the Sikh blog, The Langar Hall. Clearly, along with everything else that is happening in the Sikh community, there is now a serious contest for adherents roughly under the banner of the Sikh tradition running along caste lines. For orthodox Sikhs like Jodha at the Langar Hall, the answer is a form of sincere self-criticism something like this: “we need to be true to the real tradition of Sikhism since the Singh Sabha movement, which is anti-caste and anti-sect, and do a better job of being inclusive.” I admire that sentiment. But the SC/OBC followers of these Dera sects clearly have not been interested in joining that program, and have instead begun asserting their caste identity via the heterodox Dera sects, in ways that make orthodox Sikhs very uncomfortable (or angry).
It isn’t great, but it’s reality, and I don’t know if yet another call to be better about finally abolishing caste will stop caste-based movements from continuing to assert themselves against the dominant tradition. I do not claim to know how the Sikh community can solve this problem, but I do think that the old, familiar idealism is going to be less effective in the long run than a pragmatic willingness to negotiate and compromise with the people with whom one may disagree.
It may also be time to spend less energy worrying about injustices historically committed against Sikhs, and more time thinking about injustices committed by some Sikhs against other Sikhs — as well as injustices against non-Sikhs in the surrounding community (in this case, the lower caste groups in Punjab).
People are fond of saying this sort of thing but I still wonder how likely it would be for the daughter of a doctor who went into I-Banking to marry the son of a sanitation worker who flips burgers at McDonalds.
Of all the comments posted on this – this one #123 by “peen kahn waala” takes the cake.
Brilliant.
The point is most of these secular ideas are rooted in certain historical and cultural events unique to the development of Western Europe
YogaFire didn’t this ideology, secular ideas you call it, also developing in south Asian.?
Elsewhere. That was precisely my point if only you hadn’t exploded before being able to discern it. If you dig a wee bit around your so-called secular ideas you will find many of them are just embroidered theology.
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Wow, what an elevated soul you must be. This is the biggest trap that keeps people from scrutizing the caste situation with the seriousness it deserves. Just step back and reflect for a bit on how moronic what you just said above is. As if you treat your boss in the same way as you treat a sales clerk. Judging from your comment at 148 you seem pretty comfortable giving people hell.
This is no different from the attitude americans dish out to dog eaters. Besides, you have no right to pass judgment on village practices unless you yourself have lived a life that is confined to a 20 mile radius. Then all of a sudden you’ll be able to see what it means to live near fish eaters, and pig eaters, and rat eaters. It won’t seem like rubbish any more.
Some did, some didn’t. But mostly they had their own distinct flavors and hues that were tuned to the local customs.
I don’t think there is anything bad about adopting good ideas that work from other cultures. But what bothers me is when ideas from other cultures are held up as this perfect standard without good reason. So rather than saying “secularism is a tool by which we can guarantee freedom of conscience and maintain social harmony” we instead get inane arguments like “secularism is good because it is modern and we must be modern and not traditional.” So rather than judging our norms and institutions based on how well they serve the needs of our society, we end up judging them based on how well they ape the standards set up by some other society half a planet away to meet their own needs. Thus, you see Indians being irrational. From matters as small as professional attire (Wool suits in a tropical climate? Really?) to matters are large as social and political institutions.
So rather than judging our norms and institutions based on how well they serve the needs of our society, we end up judging them based on how well they ape the standards set up by some other society half a planet away to meet their own needs.
I agree. I just remember some of Amartya Sen’s writings, can’t remember which one, but ideas of equality and religious tolerance have been around a long time in South Asia…I don’t attribute the idea of democracy, representative rule, to the West at all…I’d have to look up the history, but these ideas were already part and parcel of different South Asian societies before Europe’s englightenment.
Good point. It means the problem is not with caste, but with people associating some professions as “pure” and others “impure”. That doesn’t come from Christianity, or western domination, or even from Hindu scriptures. It comes from the “ritualistic turn” of Brahmin culture, where Brahmins started chanting hymns without knowing what they mean, and bathing eight times a day to make the hymns more effective. And from there also started the superiority accorded to intellectual professions, which is just bunkum. The tide seems to be turning though, if these stories are any indication.
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Incidentally, some of the racism in the West can also be attributed to pure/impure notions. White people are always yakking about their hygienic habits.
YF – Neither religion nor secularism provide any guarantee of freedom of conscience (whatever that even means) or social harmony. In fact, in cultures such as India secularism has made matters worse. It will continue to make matters much worse because hindus have now been aroused and are vying to outdo their monotheistic brethren.
There existed social harmony in India ever since BC – before the concept of secularism. When the xtians and jews arrived in India in the first millennium they were not mistreated. In other words, secularism is not the only way. There are other way. Let us try and discover them. Secularism only makes sense in a xtian culture where you can separate church and state. In hinduism there is no scope for its application since you cannot separate dharma from any aspect of life.
Suki Dillon – You are right, it is our Macho Jatt culture that is to blame, for the inter [Jatt] Sikh violence that occurs in Gurudwaras all over North America and for the cowardly assassination of the Ravi Das Guru in Vienna.
Suzy – You are right, too.
It’s hard to say how much of that is due to the policy of secularism vs. the twisted implementation of it. I think it’s appropriateness for India is still up for debate. But my point was that the idea of secularism wasn’t supposed to be an end in itself. The reason Western societies adopted it was because it was a useful tool to prevent government interference in matters of (initially the Catholic and Protestant) religions. By deciding that the state was outside the realm of the church they got to keep political power out of the existential battle to harvest souls thereby staving off state-sponsored wars of religion and pogroms. It made sense for them but only because it was used as a means to the end rather than an end in itself.
Since secularism as an idea was developed to ensure harmony and guarantee freedom of conscience (in which case I mean not having the government trying to impose belief systems on you at the barrel of a gun like the Khmer Rouge did) it should be evaluated based on how well it meets that goal. If it doesn’t it clearly needs some rethinking.
But what job do you think the Brahmins were doing by cramming all those hymns by heart? How can we be so sure that the extent of their job did not consist primarily in cramming and regurgitating? Instead of marvelling at how entire texts have been preserved for 5,000 years, we go on and on about meaning. Meaning was for yogis to discover. Do not confuse a pandit with a yogi.
Seriously, try cramming even one verse of a poem and see how hard it is. Try again in a secluded place with no distractions, no boyfriend, no sex, no drugs, and see if it is a bit easier. Then make a judgment about pure and impure lifestyles and see if certain jobs can be done without this distinction.
And how Indians always smell like curry or how European ladies don’t shave.
Exercising our cramming genes – ensuring that following generations will win Geography and Spelling Bees
I am not sure bathing 8 times a day improved their cramming skills. Even if it did, it is one thing to practice a purity ritual to improve your recitation, and quite another to consider others inferior because they don’t do the purity ritual. That is the kind of associative and robotic learning silly AI programs do.
BTW, I don’t believe Brahmins started cramming to preserve historic texts, they started cramming to keep their praxis and status. Cramming saved them even when they were not qualified to practice, that is, even when they couldn’t interpret the texts. (A lot of that goes on even today, see the comment on the bees). The preservation of text was an after effect, if it happened. Palm leaf versions of texts have been around for a while, so the we-saved-the-texts story is probably after-the-fact job-justification. I would like to know which texts have been saved by whose cramming. Most of the legends about recreated texts involve some gifted person meeting some yogi and reciting the texts from dream etc., as in the case of Krishnamacharya.
Or maybe they bequeathed the job with status because preserving the text was considered noble work worth doing.
Kind of like how we uplift the status of educated people who become inner-city teachers to make up for the fact that we pay them next to nothing, stick them in crappy neighborhoods, and give them no resources to do their jobs. I’ve always thought appealing to virtue, where possible, was a much stronger way to influence people’s behavior than simplistic incentive structures, regulations, and monetary carrots.
After reading a little bit on this topic(about 25 minutes of reading) I think it is safe to say that “ravidasis” are not Sikh.
Their prayers are different, the symbol of there religion is different, the way in which they treat the Guru Granth Sahib is different, and there is idol worship. There is even conflict within this religion if they should even use the Guru Granth Sahib at all.
You cant call the place of their worship a Gurdwara based on these things.
And I should say that I am an atheist and am just curious about this event about a religion of my ancestors.
NO IT IS NOT.
I
Of course I agree that your average Brahmin had his particular set of neuroses. But so what? Even reading a text as ancient as the Mahabharata one can see how degenerate the civilization already had become. Some philosopher, I forget who, pointed out how civilization is almost synonymous with degeneration. People begin to lose their creative edge and get very set in their ways as soon as they get comfortable.
Isn’t “ravidasi” a reference to the 4th guru?
shallow thinker -while i know you must be exhausted after researching the ravi dasis for 25 whole minutes, i will dare ask anyways – in your research did you actually talk to a ravi dasi?
and as for your dis qualifier: “idol worship” , my mother, a jat sikh has been going to a hindu temple once a week all her adult life, and she is not alone. hundreds of thousands of jat sikhs pray to hindu gods and goddesses. next time you are in north india, take a trip to the vaishno devi shrine in jammu, and while there do an informal survey of the number of devotees wearing turbans, then adjust for the number of sikhs who have given up on keeping their kesh. you might be surprised by the number of idol worshiping jat sikhs
Divya. Can you list some of these innumerable benefits of caste? Not being snarky here – I just haven’t heard many arguments for it before and am curious.
I noticed that the Dalit Sikh rioters shown in Punjab were not wearing the turbans. Any reason for that? Do Dalit Sikhs not wear turbans?
Also, does anybody have an estimate of the size of the Ravidass/Dalit/Chamar Sikh diaspora?
I grew up reading anti Hinduism propaganda from the DK folks and literature. Hinduism was portrayed as the only religion that degrades some of its followers and people converted to other egalitarian religions to escape the ignominy.
Having wisened up to the caste issues in Indian Islam and Indian Christianity I’m surprised to find the same tussle in Sikhism. Looks like now I need to pay closer attention to Jainism and Buddhism.
It provides a safety net for a society in which there is none other.
It is their social security system of sorts.
Entire business communities have been able to thrive and prosper in business because of the trust network among them.
I personally know 1 Sikh who came to the US and went straight to his gurdwara where hy found help learning the ropes (doubtless from his caste mates).
It provides an anchor, similar to the one sought by religious types, but without much of the religious baggage. (Of course you’d have your caste rules instead but those are based on tradition, not religion, which imo, is a step up.
Things along these lines (at an individual level) mostly tied to the sense of community it provides, along with providing the support structure.
I personally am intersted in caste because I think it is a fabulous alternative to state-sponsored rules of conduct. With caste you can have any type of behavior without making it illegal, yet providing people who do not want that type of behavior their own place too. For example there were several legitimate forms of prostitution in ancient India. This way prostitutes too had a place in society and did not have to be considered lowly. Not saying there were no lowly prostitutes, just saying there were some at very high levels of skill and expertise in dance, poetry etc. that anyone would envy. On the western model you can never have this. Amsterdam is not good enough, I’m sorry. Maybe this is a bad example but what horrifies me about the west is the fixed notions of right and wrong that people have. There’s very little room for wierdness.
The other thing I like about caste is that it has the potential to create a variety of different standards. Now India too follows the western pattern where wealth is the only standard. To me even artists (the purest thing I can think of right now) in the west seem to be just another species of businessmen. And don’t even get me started on copyright laws. So while a lot of lip service is paid to diversity, actually this is a very monolithic socieity. I think caste can fix that. Of course every form of society will have its ills, but the caste based ills we see in India right now are manifest at a time when India is at its lowest. Caste is an ancient phenomenon. What must it have been like when the country was prosperous? In any case, to me it is about alternate ways of conceptualizing the world. That’s the biggest issue.
Nice discussion. I want to add a point that is not raised here.
I don’t think “lower” castes or “backward” castes want to remove caste divisions. Not-so-backward-castes are demanding OBC status (Jats and Gujjers). For once, the “upper” castes are getting short end of the stick. There is huge incentive to organize in big groups to bargain for a share of pie (swing voter effect). Caste is the most natural division in the subcontinent.
The earliest (decipherable) written texts on the Indian subcontinent are the rock edicts of Ashoka. The Vedas predate Ashoka by hundreds of years. This indicates that there was a period of time when there was no writing in the Indian subcontinent, and the only way to preserve texts was through oral transmission.
Also, this technique was not unique to the India–Greek epics like the Iliad and the Odyssey were also memorized and transmitted orally.
BTW, I’m really shocked by some of the comments on this thread. I thought you people knew better than to defend the caste system…
LadyMacbeth:
Actually, there were no texts. It’s an oral tradition as Naipaul has often lamented. Some of the aspects of the oral tradition had to do with sounds–birdsong–for instance, which are not faithfully reproduced in script. (Not saying it cannot be done, just saying that the chanting is transmission of sounds.) Sometimes, the chanting facilitated calculations–sort of like a verbal abacus. My guess is that they wanted to preserve and transmit their knowledge, there are even chants on how to make fire with sticks, make rain etc…. and this was all before they thought of writing. They were able to faithfully reproduce and transmit all this so successfully that they were slow to adopt written texts even when they had a script.
Ponniyan:
I first learnt about the Sikh caste system when I was quite young and was told that Bedi=Vedi= well a brahmin.
but the caste based ills we see in India right now are manifest at a time when India is at its lowest. Caste is an ancient phenomenon.
Yes, it would be interesting to understand what caste was like 500, 1000 years ago. I understand what you mean about abolishing caste identity is like that old phrase “colorblind”, which is a silly term. I come from a caste that would be considered lower caste – what the reformers in Kerala changed was not so much not having any caste identity but more about not hating, discriminating and devaluing another person b/c of their caste and not forcing them to a profession when they want to do something else. Course Sri Narayana’s movement was one man, one god, one caste…but I don’t think he meant it in that we don’t have to erase the good traditions and history of a caste group.
But the way that caste manifests itself in India, in recent times, has often been about devaluing another human being and also socioeconomic control. I was listening to my uncle in India recently talk about how in Kerala, one way in which people from my caste were degraded by the brahmins was that they forced us to pay tax when children reached puberty – such as when a mustache started growing or when you started getting boobs. And often times women from my caste were not allowed to cover themselves. The most vile,horrible degrading ways. We were not allowed to walk in certain roads, although Christians and Muslims could walk in those streets.
But now, at least on the outside Kerala society appears integrated with caste…I’m sure there’s some people that practice untouchability and such, and I guess my family is from a more affluent group and educated group and that education can effect a lot; Now even though our friends, neighbors and spouses may be from different castes, we still take great pride in some of our caste traditions and history. It’s not a history or traiditon that we use to devalue anyone else (well most people I know don’t) but it’s part of a group’s history that doesn’t have to be erased in the interest of homogeneity=equality.
Suki Dillon – You are right, it is our Macho Jatt culture that is to blame, for the inter [Jatt] Sikh violence that occurs in Gurudwaras all over North America and for the cowardly assassination of the Ravi Das Guru in Vienna.
To be fair its just Jatt’s being Jatt’s, they can’t help themselves.
A divided house can never stand..that is the problem re Sikhi.. Khalsa Sikhs are Jat dominated, and clearly don’t recognise other forms of Sikhs… Yes, Jat Pride is arrogant, and now in retaliation the “Chammar” is standing up Allrelgions are money hungry…seems like root cause to this
But no one has said whether this means its safe to take an Indian child bron outside in the west with our liberal views to Punjab over the next few months…
It all depends on parents and the environment the child is raised in, one does need to go to Punjab to be a rabid zelot.
PS – I have heard these type of stories too and find them very distressing and do not condone them in any way. But I have also heard that each jati has its own temples, rituals, etc., which are in no way Brahmin-dependent. In fact Brahmins are not allowed into their temples. If this is true, then I wonder why or how the Brahmins were able to have any influence. Also, Brahmins are a miniscule percentage of the population so they cannot have had the kind of influence it is alleged they had (or have). Often the atrocities described are inflicted by one jati on another based on the power structure and the amount of bullying one can get away with – without necessarily relating to high caste or low caste.
“I personally am intersted in caste because I think it is a fabulous alternative to state-sponsored rules of conduct.”
Amaury de Riencourt in his book The Soul of India, claims Indian civilization developed a universal society,the caste system, because India never developed a universal state.
One real problem is the lack of terminology when talking about jati and varna. This is what makes the discussion difficult – because we are talking about a 100 different things under the single heading of “caste” (a portuguese origin word).
For example, discrimination in the public domain based on varna or jati is what is called casteism in india (bigotry based on jati origins and varna ranking). Now, this is essentially a form of racism, maybe the broader term should be something like jati-racism or jati-ism, or maybe we can just re-use casteism to mean this.
Pride or awareness of ones jati identity, sorta like “clan” or “ancestral group” pride is another thing altogether. There is no reason for this to be perjorative, one naturally feels connected to ones imagined origins and there are many markers based on food, cuisine, music and so on that one can appreciate in ones jati. So this is something like “jati-pride” or “jati-awareness” or something like that.
A third aspect is one seen in matrimonials, wanted khatri arora bride, where there is a notion of a jati marriage circle. Now this is not quite casteism but its also something a bit more than just taking pride in ones origins. So we need a term for this type of jati distinction, lets call it “jati-vivah” or “jati-based marriage”.
I bet other interactors could list a dozen other functional distinctions around the use of jati in desi society. Without keeping some of these distinction in mind, its impossible to have a serious discussion on the subject.
Divya, are you talking about caste in a theoretical sense where everyone is free to change caste depending on what mode of living they prefer? It’s hard to consider alternative modes of conduct or moral standards a positive thing if people don’t have the ability to choose one.
For all those going berserk on the Jat thing, it isn’t exclusively a matter of privileged identity for Sikhs. The Jat identity reaches across to Hindus and Muslims as well! In the last 100 years or so the Muslim Jat identity has cleaved from the Hindu/Sikh Jat identity, thanks to Partition. Pakistan is paying a weighty price for monkeying around with the set identity networks of tradition and trying to impose a phoney religious based mould upon its diverse polity. The modern day Khalsa as well as Arya Samaj revivals too are to blame, although they have successfully shoved aside many inequitous practices. 100 years ago, the Arya Samaj and the Sikh revival movements were both competing for the same groups, and in fact doing the same thing, a Lutherization of the Punjabi. Divya, am I right? The Arya Samaj itself then split, and the less doctrinaire breakaway group began to find more success when it decided to let the converts – mazabhis, ramgarhias and many others – continue with their set ways, which included among other things – meat (pork expecially), tobacco, narcotics, alcohol, etc. Naturally the mainstream Arya Samaj and the Sikh revivalists would have nothing of it. Check out Durga Das’s widely ignored, but 1st rate “India from Curzon to Nehru”. But during this period while the Arya Samjis and Sikh preachers duked it out, the Christian missionaries quietly went about their work gaining a larger number of converts until they ran afoul of the larger Muslim communities in East Punjab (which was almost a Muslim majority region those days). The reason wasn’t far to seek. While the Arya Samajis and Sikh preachers conferred equality and dignity, they required the depressed classes to substantially modify their lifestyle, risking a loss of livelihood. When you are a tanner, meat is easy to come by, and it is v.hard to switch over to a more vegetarian diet that requires some landed assets and a different set of networks.
Before anything else let me share a few things about myself. I am a Hindu, and I am also a Sikh, in the sense of being a sishya and a seeker, even if that may trouble my Sikh friends who read this. What draws me to admire the Gurus, and the Granth, is that their sayings are available to all, contain no dogma, or doctrine, and emphasises the right conduct free of belief. The Gurus were human and are some of the most dazzling and radiant leaders ever, along with the many Bhagats whose poetry too forms a part of the Guru Granth Sahib. I do not worship or pray, these being inapplicable to the practices of a Hindu. I am not sure if the practices of the Ravidassias or Sikhs constitute prayer and worship, which mean something very specific within Christian practice and should not be used thoughtlessly to describe the practices of non-Christians. Although much has been said about Ravidassias and Nirankaris criticising the Gurus, I am yet to come across a single text from either community that is evidence of this accusation. The Gurus and their contemporaries, other astik leaders of the years around 900-1700 CE were not religious leaders. Their followers did not belong to any one religion or even tradition. While the earlier Gurus and Sants provided some strength in numbers Guru Gobind Singhji began to provide them the protection of arms as well. The Sikh Gurus were very strict about choosing successors and in many instances kept out members of the family, even disinheriting them in cases of moral failings. Differences then were not doctrinal but related to conduct. Unfortunately today they are doctrinal.
Re the politics of Punjab. The Congress in the past cornered the broad Hindu vote as well as the upper class Sikh vote, and the Ravidassi, Ramgarhia, mazabhis and others. The Akali Dal, enjoyed the allegiance of the landed classes. The Jan Sangh for a long time was neither here not there having backed the wrong horse during the statehood agitation days. As to who speaks Punjabi and who speaks Hindi, it is a splitting hairs. At one time everyone spoke everything. With the highest classes still priding themselves on their Farsi, and the middle classes having to do with Urdu, while the less privileged spoke Punjabi. The Hindi as we know it today did not exist about a 100 years ago, but then neither did the Punjabi of today. Determining the language of Bulla cannot be successfully concluded except by laying waste to the profound truths of his song. When the statehood agitation rolled through the Jan Sangh was split between its pecuniary minded lalas who wanted to have a say in the economy of the state thus claiming Hindi-hood for Punjab, opposed to the thinkers of the Jan Sangh who were still dreaming of a broad alliance between the Sikhs and the Hindus. But with Dr.SP Mukherjee being gone by then, there were few of any intellect who could apply themselves to the problem and ended up confining the Jan Sangh to a few urban centers. Fast forward to the ’70s. With the post-Green Revolution days setting in and agriculture becoming a commanding presence in the economy the Akalis naturally began to voice all the popular issues of the days, higher procurement prices, more investment in irrigation, etc., leaving the Congress a little vulnerable. Came and went the Emergency during when the RSS, Akali Dal, Jan Sangh, Cong(O), Jamaat, Naxalites etc were all locked up together in jail, leading to some very interesting relationships! Naturally post-Emergency the Congress got booted out of Punjab, leading it to begin supporting a few candidates opposed to the Akali Dal from many sides – the Ramdassias, Nirankaris, as well as the urban Hindus. And before anyone knew it you were having all sorts of trouble. This time the Jan Sangh/RSS and then the BJP did a little better. It went with the Akalis and the Ramdassias and tried its darned best not let the Khalistani extremists drive a wedge between Hindu and Sikh interests. It paid very dearly for it 1984, losing a very big chunk of the Hindu vote to a scare mongering Congress, but continued nevertheless thru the 80s and 90s and all until now, gaining substantial ground among Sikhs and Hindus in Punjab. Just when the matter seemed settled came along the Congress and the DSS after last year’s Assembly elections, splitting the Akali/BJP constituency, and now seems to have cornered the Hindu urban vote as well. Things are now eerily reminiscent of the 1980s. But I think there is enough wisdom on all sides to prevent the mistakes of the past.
GTGN, but will be back on other things shortly. Have some interesting things on how the Vedas are supposed to be learnt.
Indologists are a miniscule percentage of the population as well, but here we are trying to debunk 200 year old egregious claims.
AV – it’s always going to be parents and the like who set the moral standard so one does not have much of a choice. This is the human condition and a natural constraint on our development, and may even be a good thing. The word “choice” also has a lot of theological baggage, by the way. I was thinking more along the lines of indifference to other lifestyles without demonizing them or being required to embrace or even tolerate them. I find this to be lacking in western civilization. We are forced either to criminalize or to tolerate (or say that we do). This is the best that secularism has given us. The fringes can never flourish. I find that in India there were (are) many more varieties of life styles. They may not be exactly flourishing, but at least they are free to be as weird or different as they want.
Jyotsna, I know next to nothing about indian politics or the various spiritual reform movements so cannot confirm any of the history, but thank you for the intersting read.
Divya the casteist wrote:
What’s really sinister is that there are still numerous stupid, ignorant, immoral and backward hindus like you who continue to stubbornly and shamelessly defend a corrupt, inhumane, unjust, wicked social system whose filthy, ugly, enervating consequences all can see. It is your ignorance that makes you conclude that secularism is of christian origin. Egalitarianism, freedom of religion, freedom of speech etc arose in the West during the Enlightenment Era which was an intellectual movement that championed pagan Reason over Biblical Revelation. Most of the famous Enlightenment philosophers and kings were extremely critical of christianity and that includes the American Founding Fathers. Read Thomas Paine’s Age of Reason for a good example of the anti-christian sentiments of the enlightenment secularists.
Anyone with a brain and a heart, from Buddha to Guru Nanak to innumerable other saints and sages, can see that brahminism/casteism is an unmitigated evil. Your claim that the great merit of casteism is that it provides a social safety net is proof of your ignorance and stupidity. Does India look like a place with an effective safety net? Quite the opposite: it is by far the most inhumane, least compassionate culture on the face of the earth. To visitors from christian, muslim, buddhist, secular nations, India looks like a godforsaken hellhole populated for the most part by the most callous of human beings who refuse to lift a finger to alleviate the incredible hunger, filth, poverty and suffering that surrounds them. The greedy, selfish orthodox brahmin demands all the charity of hindus; he preaches that the sufferings of the masses of hindus are their karma so they do not deserve charity or compassion. This is not true religion or spirituality, this is pure demonic evil.
As we all know ladies and gentlemen, if you can’t actually argue your point or understand why people disagree with you, the optimal solution is to just need to pile more adjectives into your invective.
Divya the hindutvadi wrote:
What a morally bankrupt person. She actually thinks it is “fabulous” that her fellow brahmins have for centuries exploited innocent little girls by making them sing, dance and prostitute themselves in their temples, as devadasis, to the enrichment of their priestly pimps. What the hell does prostitution have to do with religion and spirituality? This perversion is just another example of “brahmins” (who the hell made these lowlifes a “high” caste?) hijacking sanatana dharma for their own selfish ends.
YESS! Take your thesaurus. Strike her down with it. Use your aggressive feelings Prema! Let the hate flow through you!
Folks, things are degenerating here.
Either agree to agree without hostility, or the thread gets shut down.
Thanks YF. I was wondering where all the Premas had disappeared to for a whole day! Btw, gobind, I don’t want to ruin it for you but temples were not the only places with prostitutes, it was an across-the-board thing. Temples also had prostitutes, it is very true. Thanks to contemporary moral uprightness you only find them in dark alleyways where they get beaten up.
gobind in #189: Thank you for saying what you just said. I am tongue tied after reading some of the comments here. Presence of vestiges of caste identities in Indian Christians, Muslims, Sikhs, Jains, Buddhists or for that matter Communists does not validate or justify the Hindu caste system which is totally a different beast and very pernicious. Let us all work to mitigate the internal evil.
That is just another example of why the brahmins are complete frauds. All that pretentious futile emphasis on physical purity while their minds remain filthy with greed, pride, lust, hate, superstition and ignorance.
And what are the results of this brahminical fixation on ritual purity? The hindu culture is widely seen as the dirtiest, least hygienic of all cultures. Hindu temples in India are easily the filthiest and shabbiest places of worship anywhere. The brahmins bathe in the incredibly filthy Ganges, with rotting human carcasses floating by, and think they are purified by it. And on and on.
Assuming there was a real Buddha, at all, neither Buddha nor Guru Nanak have anything to say about jati, although they may have something to say about discriminating against this person or that person. Buddhists in the middle period, following around 100 CE as a rule belonged to the elite, and by the time of the invasion of Sindh had become an ossified elitist order, leaving them with no structure to survive the Arab onslaught. Ambedkar and Kosambi’s lit survey (neither counts as history) all but agree with this. To some extent the Jains in S.India still retained some structure within their communities, while the Hindu mainstream of course as now, had the most possible diversity of tradtions and practices, that have survived to this day. Some Islamic invaders -cohorts of Bin Qasim – were horrified and even terrified of the Tantriks, Nagas, and the many militant and nihilistic communities. While the Buddhist elite playing the role of absolutists and doctrinaire adherents tried unsuccessfully to wean the masses away from popular ritual, and even the extreme the sects, the masses soon grew tired of the hectoring and simply turned away from Buddhist orthodoxy. Which is why the only form of popular Buddhism that survives today is the Theravada tradition which is almost indistinguishable from Hinduism. Only in SL during the last 200 years or so, the Buddhist clergy has tried to stamp out external customs, and introduce an artificially pure but “exciting form” of Buddhist practice. But for a v.v.long time Hinduism and Buddhism have gotten along uneventfully in SL. Even at the height of the anti-Tamil pograms of the 70s and 80s, Hindu practice has gone on uninterrupted.
Now for the Vedas, Divya is right. The job of the vaidik Brahman is to memorise certain sections of the Vedas with unerring accuracy. The sections have been allotted an unknown number of millennia ago, so these days when some families discontinue a Vaidik tradition, a part of the Vedic corpus also dies out. The Vedas are not at the beginning of Hindu tradition, as the puranas and the Vedas themselves speak of kings who supported the compilation of the Vedas. As for what they mean, few Vaidiks can tell you, if at all, as that is not their job. It is the job of rishis, yogis, and people like you and me to read up and try to interpret the Vedas. The last word hasn’t been said on them, despite the 100s of layers of commentaries written on the Vedas since the dawn of hostory to this day. We may never ever know what they mean or what they imply. Dr.Sarada Rajeev of the Univ.of Rochester – physicist – offers a general interest course at Canisisu College, Buffalo, NY, on Vedas, early Indian mathematical tradition and the history of Kerala every year. According to Dr. Rajeev the Veda memorisation process has some nifty error correction built into it.
A Vedic verse recited by a Namboothiri corresponds perfectly with that by Pandit from Kashmir, although both of them lead very different lifestyles.