This Sunday, I woke up to an email from a girlfriend who is not Desi. She said that there was a really thought-provoking article in the New York Post, which reminded her of some of our conversations. She thought I might enjoy it. Enjoy it? I could have written parts of it. It was about Dating While Brown– and dating other Browns, to be specific.
The piece was called, “MELTING NOT: Why Young People Like me Started Dating Within our Race“. In it, NYP reporter Raakhee Mirchandani wrote a sensitive, honest explanation of her views on love– and I can just imagine the nastiness she might be encountering because of it.
It’s never easy to put yourself out there, so I salute her for doing so. Besides, with this issue, you can’t win. You date outside your community and you’re either a sell-out, desperate or a coconut. Date within it and you’re insular, insecure and biased. Ugh. Can’t we all just get along? I hope we can remember to be kind to one another, as we discuss an issue which affects all of us, albeit in different ways. We’ve got to let love rule, or whatever Lenny screams. On to the story.
::
I know so many friends, whose experience mirrored this:
Growing up, the man in my dreams was a mystery; he was white, he was tall, he was dark, he was slick. He was always handsome. In my fantasy it didn’t matter if he was Catholic or Muslim, European or African, if he ate pigs or worshipped monkeys. It didn’t matter if he understood that I came from a rich tradition of Indian Hindus who were strict vegetarians, quietly conservative, obsessively dedicated to family and maniacal in their love for cheesy song-and-dance movies with mediocre acting and music.
And so when we met, freshman year at Boston University – the street smart Eastern European with a gorgeous smile, big heart and wicked sense of humor and the artsy Indian girl with a penchant for big hair, Bollywood and Biggie -it seemed like the perfect cross-continental match.
Ah, Biggie. I pour some of my Robitussin with Codeine out for you.
But somewhere along our six years together, the Indian girl from Jersey, who had naively promised him Catholic children, steak dinners and consistently defended his refusal to hang with my family as a simple difference in opinion, had a change of heart. And he did, too.
I remember him looking at me on an evening not far from our last and saying, “It’s like all of a sudden you became Indian.” In a way so quiet I didn’t even realize it was happening, the brown from my skin must have seeped in and colored my heart.
That line just slays me. I project emotions and explanations all over it. Is it accusatory? A blurt of hurt? Is becoming “Indian” a negative thing? The defending “his refusal to hang with my family” is also poignant. America may be a country of individuals, but most of us who are of South Asian descent are tightly tied to our families, for better or for worse. No one wants to be caught in that vise between one love and another.
Surprisingly, I’m not the only one. While the rate of intermarriage among races increased over the past half-century, the last decade has seen a reversal – particularly among Asians and Latinos. According to a Ohio State University study, from 1990-2000 the number of Hispanics marrying outside their race fell from 27% to 20%, while Asian intermarriage dropped from 42% to 33%.
I’m no Razib, but this matches what I feel like I’m witnessing around me (and yes, this is the same stat Abhi mentioned in this post). At one point, if I saw a second- or third-generation Asian-American with an Asian spouse, I was surprised, because so many of my friends had married “out”. Now, I see a reversal of that. Maybe it’s easier for us to find each other, thanks to the internets. Then again, maybe Ohio State and I are full of it (highly probable– I’m supposed to be a Michigan fan).
After brushing it off for so long, many of my relatives and friends are listening to that nagging voice in our collective heads. You know, the one that sounds like a hybrid of your mom/dad/grandparent/aunt/uncle/neighbor-in-the-old-country telling you in heavily accented English, “Have you found anyone yet, dahling? Can we introduce you to Mr. Kapoor’s son? He is doctor. Ven vill you finally give us good news?” Despite my better efforts to buck the traditional Indian girl inside me – glossy black locks turned to bleached blond in a weak moment of teen angst; pre-med was never an undergraduate option and much to my parents chagrin; I have always favored copious amounts of worthless costume jewels over precious museum-grade family heirlooms – I discovered that I’m not really that much of a rebel after all.
Yeah, me neither. Well, except for the remaining defiantly single at 34 bit. Maybe it’s because I’ve retired all five pairs of my Doc Martens, but I don’t feel like a rebel…until grateful letters from some of you label me as such; “I’m so glad there’s another Desi girl who isn’t married…I’m 26 and the pressure is horrid!”
Note to 26-year old: don’t allow yourself to be rushed in to a damned thing. The people who nag you to get hitched now won’t be sympathetic to you if you separate or get a divorce. Then you’ll be THAT girl, the one with the “past”.
Even if you end up happily married, they will never stop butting in to your life, because sometime after your wedding reception commences, they’ll be demanding a schedule for when you’ll be procreating offspring, or where you’ll be purchasing a home. As I like to say to my long-suffering Mother: “If I don’t get on that merry-go-round, I don’t have to worry about vomiting.”
You third-generation tykes owe us big. We smug singles are facing the wrath of our community now, so that one day you can actually take advantage of this “30 is the new 20” bullshit, and go to weddings, funerals, housewarmings or any other Desi-infested event without cringing, or hiding from the Auntie mafia in your car. Don’t worry about thanking us, just hook us up when we’re 65, since Social Security isn’t going to do it.
Back to Raakhee:
During the Obama campaign, commentators asked if younger people were growing up in a colorblind society. I certainly hope it’s a more tolerant one – but not blind. Living in harmony doesn’t mean camouflaging our differences, or denying that we have any. And while I would never judge an Indian person who chose an interracial relationship – love in whatever way it comes is flawless – I know that I could never do it again.
I could never do it in the first place, mostly because of what I’ve bolded below:
Relationships are hard enough, no matter who you love. Maintaining and sustaining them requires a combination of courage, compromise and dedication. But there’s a comfort in building a solid foundation with someone who comes from a similar place. I don’t want to have to explain the minutia of my complex culture, hoping for both understanding and approval. I want to begin on equal footing, roots already firmly planted in a common garden.
I’m more of a wanna-be geek, so my declaration contained something like, “I want someone pre-loaded with all this software, I don’t want to have to install anything”. Please don’t tell me if that makes no sense. 馃檪 Just focus on my alternate line, “I ain’t no one’s cultural tour guide.” Classy, I know. That almost sounds like I hate non-Desis. Not at all. In some of those memorable instances, I desperately didn’t want to be the object of someone’s fetish or part of that one guy’s UN fantasy which involved…well, you get the picture. Even if the rare non-Desi guy who expressed interest didn’t fall in to one of those two weird categories, I worried that having to explain every little thing or answer a plethora of questions would become exhausting.
Yet I know friends and family who feel the exact opposite of such sentiments (well…not the UN thing). They love sharing who we are with their significant others from different backgrounds. They relish building bridges by spreading the Brown love and Gods bless them for it. I just can’t do it, Captain. To each, our own, right?
What’s right for me or Raakhee isn’t even right for some of my immediate family members. While Raakhee found her prince, two of my girls got no love or interest from boys within our community; that’s not an exaggeration. I could write horrifying posts about the Desi boys who met them and said, “You’re much darker than I thought you would be”, or similar ugliness. I had a Cross Colors shirt in the early 90s which said, “Love see no color”. We could easily amend it to: “Stupidity see no color.” A douche is a douche, regardless of race.
Those two beautiful women are now marrying outside of our community, and I’m glad for it. I’m not implying that only people who strike out with brown go hunting elsewhere. I’m just mentioning two specific family members who are marrying amazing people and that matters more than skin. If brown boys/girls aren’t feeling you, to hell with them. If you only find that “amazing” with someone whose Mom makes sambar too (guilty), then more hand soap to you. We each need to make this decision for ourselves (are you reading, 26-year old?? You’re fine! Stay strong!).
I’m the kind of girl who is as comfortable worshipping multi-armed deities as she is worshipping at Chanel. The kind who can easily wrap herself in to a 5-yard sari in a public bathroom but much prefers Uggs and leggings. Certainly the kind who washes down a spicy curry with a glass of Johnny on the rocks.
Yeah, I’m just going to state for the record right now that I could never put a sari on in a public bathroom. I don’t even like to put a sari on in my current apartment, because the full-length mirror is unfortunately near where I put on and take off shoes, near the door. Eeek. Oh, Raakhee, you are a better ladki than I. While you’re not asking, I also like Black and coke instead, thanks!
That makes me Indian and American, and the truth is, it’s easier when someone understands the first part of that as much as the latter.
YES. I agree, 100 percent. At the same time, I have noticed that interracial couples where both parties are from minority or “ethnic” backgrounds–which emphasize family– do seem to find some common ground.
So now I’ve taken the UPS approach to dating: What can brown do for me?
More than I ever thought.
Here comes her happy ending:
My current boyfriend, Agan, is the kind of Punjabi prince dreams are made of. He held me last year when Bombay burned and I broke. He high-fived me when “Slumdog” took home eight golden trophies and I squealed. He rolls his eyes when I talk about Yankee Stadium like it’s The Bronx version of the Golden Temple. He’s from the left (wrong) coast, you see; not everything can be Disney fairytales.
But he understands without questioning that I will live at home with my parents until I get married. That family obligations trump any evening plans we may have made. Without my suggesting it, he mentioned that when we grew up and had a house of our own, there would be room for both sets of parents, his and mine. I was enamored.
In that moment I knew why it never worked between me and anybody else. I had underestimated the power of my parenting, the grip of my culture and the strong but subtle shades of India that I reflect.
In less than a year he has earned his way into my parents’ hearts, fielding near daily text messages and e-mails from my mother, approving but curious glances from my father and even joining my brother in a weekly basketball league. It’s as if they already knew each other. And in a way they did.
Your mother can text?! Mine thinks GChat is annoying. Lucky you! Speaking of superior communication products made from Goo, I GMailed Raakhee to ask if anything important had been cut from the story. Sepia Mutiny: we’re like the DVD with deleted scenes! Here’s what she had to say:
What we had to cut from the essay which I thought was important was the idea that being Indian was something I had to grow in to. Not in a conscious way, but something I had to sort of become comfortable expressing. And just being.
Also, I grew up in a way I imagine many desi chicks did who are my age (27); I was a nerdy, hairy (omfg the ‘stache, the unibrow, the horror!) and completely convinced that I would never, ever date. I thought Indian guys wouldn’t get me and all the others would think I was gross. In a way, despite my ridic inflated sense of self (and trust me, i thought i was some super hot shit when i was younger!!), when it came to dating and relationships, I didn’t think I was good enough to date either, brown or white.
Oh, if that isn’t Junior year of high school revisited, I don’t know WHAT is. Sigh.
Back to the article, for the last two paragraphs:
Despite the countries we share, we are still different. His family is Sikh. He wears a turban. Mine are Hindu and we don’t accessorize. But the fundamentals are the same; family first and everything else next.
As usual my parents were right, bless their darling immigrant hearts. It turns out I am both New Delhi and New Jersey, and the man in my dreams finally has a face to reflect that.
I’m happy for you, Raakhee, the same way I’m happy for anyone who finds their lobster. Everyone deserves the bliss that is real love. We may have different desires, preferences, approaches to searching for it, or ways to label it, but in the end, we each want the same thing, no matter with whom we may find it.
Now that a preference for your race is in, would love after marriage (aka arranged marriage) be an option too?
I personally think the notion of people falling in love after marriage is cool — the underlying idea of an open-ended learning-system is a very liberal one. The non-cool part is the arrangement, which usually boils down to money and bragging rights (about family, alma mater etc.).
It is a different model of marriage, though. It is a survival-model, where you get married because you need a partner to go on in life. The love, when it happens, is the pink (and thorny) Bougainvillea that grows around your day-to-day life. Love is an effect of a relationship, not the cause.
In the (current) standard model, compatibility and love is considered the starting point, because you marry for some kind of self-fulfillment, not for support. So you start from your existing learning, and the preferences that have arisen because of that, and then look around for a partner who lets you keep those preferences intact, or at least don’t change them drastically. Even though this is considered the liberal model, it is actually very conservative, as you are trying not to change, and therefore search hard to match as many points as you can.
I think Kishore Kumar’s underlying assumptions are closer to the arranged marriage one, as both argue for a open-ended learning system. Though in practice they are widely different, and have very different results.
BTW, I also think anchors like race will become more pronounced as the economic crisis progresses.
ah, understood.
Suki Dillon, that’s a great pic of Parminder Nagra’s wedding!
good point about the ratios, razib, it goes the other way just as much, doesn’t it?
good point about the ratios, razib, it goes the other way just as much, doesn’t it?
right. they’re sex balance. even among east asians in the USA the sex ratios balance out when you control for foreign born status. i was surprised when i saw the data.
105 脗路 nope said
Posterity has the last word.
Now that a preference for your race is in, would love after marriage (aka arranged marriage) be an option too?
remember that black and white people intermarry too. the story about the intermarriage rates declining applied to latinos & asians. but in the aggregate interracial marriage keeps increasing if you sum up everything.
It doesn’t matter from what country or race you are coming when comes to the fact of being with someone. The big question when you engage into interracial relationship is “Can i get along with his/her culture?”. It play’s a big roll, especially at the beginning of the relation. Often people are set to think that a good fit would be when they are with someone the same to them. Not always is the case. I have a friend who’s indian, as far as the race. He moved in US when he was kid. At age of 16 he got a girl that he end up marring her. Shes pure american, with no overseas relatives. After 20 years they are still together having two kids. As you can see, i doesn’t matter the race, matters who you love and be loved.
Posterity has the last word.
since this isn’t going to be a 50 year comment thread, i kind of think that’s a red-herring (though i’m pro-natalist myself and plan to replicate above my quota, i think breeders and childless should both chill a bit in terms of which lifestyle is the way people should live).
Seriously. I don’t even see how anyone could interpret the article like that unless they’re looking for it.
I hate to psychoanalyze and speculate as to the motivations for other people’s actions, but in this case it might just be appropriate. I don’t think any sensible conversation on this topic is possible until brownies who left the flock and brownies who gave up on “the one” in order to stay in it come to terms with their guilt and stop trying to justify their decision by making broad-brush generalizations about the whole diaspora/culture or judge everyone who made a different choice than they did.
As you can see, i doesn’t matter the race, matters who you love and be loved.
but that is contingent on values & upbringing, which is wrapped up in ethnic and religious background. race might not matter when you control for all variables, but that’s pretty irrelevant in interpersonal relationships, right? the variables are wrapped up with each other.
I don’t think anybody has yet talked about the danger that some south asian women in the west face from being with a guy from a different background. Which has cost some of them there lifes.
btw, i believe there has been correlation of participation in interracial relationships and variation on dopamine receptor genes. predisposition to these sorts of things to some extent probably tracks individual differences in personality. the higher rates of divorce of interracial couples might not be about intercultural friction, but rather the personalities of people who get involved in this somewhat higher partnership.
Razib, I’m not sure your interpretation of those stats is necessarily right. I said it somewhere way upthread.
Actually that’s only if you look at US Born Indo + US Born Indo marriages. If you examine the chart more closely it would actually seem to undercut the idea that outmarriage (if you see that as an indication of non-ethnic identification) is highest among Desis. In fact, it seems to be the lowest and I would think that the high prevalence of US Born + Indo Born Indian marriages would suggest a high level of cultural affiliation among ABDs.
If you look at US Raised + US Raised or Foreign Raised the number for Indians is the highest among Asians, especially among Indian females with the Vietnamese about tied. This stat could further be complicated among the Indian and Chinese numbers because of the flexibility of how we can define “ethnicity” (Indian vs. Kannada/Tamil/Assamese/etc. Do you call an Indo-Pak marriage an outmarriage?) So, depending on how the question was worded and what you’re concerned with it might actually be an undercount.
My story echoes that of Iluminati, above, with the same kinds of confusion, mistakes, and conflict.
I don’t quite understand the suggestion that the only potential partners that might “get” me, must come with all the same preloaded, cultural “software” that I too received, growing up in Punjab. i moved to the US when i was 20, and my white american wife of almost 15 years “gets me” more than any desi woman i’ve met–a feeling I had from our first date. even after all this time, my parents don’t accept her, and they are rude and cold to her. They refuse to even try to understand her; it’s frustrating; sad. Their inability to see beyond the narrative that they had long planned for me causes constant family tension and, even after so many years of seeing their son live an incredibly fulfilled life–good job, great partner, and so forth–they have actually said things like: “she’ll divorce you anyway; just do it now and marry a Punjabi girl.” They are sad broken records with their enduring negativity.
Frankly, in some cases I observe within my family, it seems there’s a bit of simple laziness at work in marrying the familiar, relying upon easy assumptions about benefits of cultural overlap between partners. I value the unfolding newness of my life with a woman from a very different background. And despite these differences, a sizzling, silver, unshakeable bond exists between us.
Are there not so many other levels on which to connect with people apart from shared experience of doting, nosy aunties, or exposure to the same cuisine? And why is that the bottom line for so many people? What about, say, an overlapping sense of adventure and intellectual curiosity, or a shared sardonic sense of humor? or shared values when it comes to raising children? I feel such close understanding from my wife, and we are still so much in love, I cannot imagine equaling this with any other woman, no matter her skin color.
Yes it’s great that she’s happy dating brown, though I do agree with others who have observed that such an essay coming from a white writer would have raised an outcry for its racist stance.
Actually that’s only if you look at US Born Indo + US Born Indo marriages.
yes, i know. that’s frankly the only group i was concerned with. your interpretation sounds fine too.
Do you call an Indo-Pak marriage an outmarriage?
that would be in in “Other Asian.” indian american excludes those from other south asian countries.
But why was that the only group you were worried about? I feel like USR + FR would indicate a level of cultural affinity among the USRs that is understated if you only look at USR + USR.
Yes, but sometimes those other South Asian countries can be fuzzy in how they define themselves. I’m not sure if the racial classification was self-identification or not. For example, if you’re a 2nd gen of a mohajir family from Pakistan and you end up marrying an Indian you can pretty much choose how you want to identify yourself can’t you? Likewise if you’re Bangladeshi. It would just depend on which community you would rather be apart of. The national borders are more fluid than the ethnic cleavages.
jsp, but not everyone has that sizzle or connection in their relationship which is so long lasting. i think the argument some might make is when you hit rough times you fall back on the familiar, home and hearth, and you’ll need your family, commonality of culture, etc. that being said, i’ve never been super close to my family anyway, so people who have hinted at the same to me don’t really have a good model for my own psychology or social background, they’re just projecting their own.
115 脗路 jsp said
What makes you think that those of us who choose Desi partners aren’t looking for all of those things, too? 馃檪 Some of the comments on this thread are a bit misguided, in that they assume that ANY brown person will do; as if we don’t look for anything beyond ethnicity. This reminds me of those stories about being in elementary school and having people ask when you + the “only other brown person” are getting married, because CLEARLY that’s what will happen.
But why was that the only group you were worried about? I feel like USR + FR would indicate a level of cultural affinity among the USRs that is understated if you only look at USR + USR.
yeah, mebee you’re right. shrug i really don’t have enough data to say much more than i said anyhow.
Yes, but sometimes those other South Asian countries can be fuzzy in how they define themselves. I’m not sure if the racial classification was self-identification or not. For example, if you’re a 2nd gen of a mohajir family from Pakistan and you end up marrying an Indian you can pretty much choose how you want to identify yourself can’t you? Likewise if you’re Bangladeshi. It would just depend on which community you would rather be apart of. The national borders are more fluid than the ethnic cleavages.
yes, this could happen, but i doubt it. i don’t recall, i might actually have put down “indian” in the 2000 census since that’s how i’ve identified myself to less educated looking people most of the time i’v been in america. but i’m definitely at an extreme spectrum in terms of my identification with a specific south asian nationality. i’m willing to bet money that religion is the primary here: hindu pakistanis and bangladeshis would probably be totally cool with putting down indian. muslim ones, not so much.
51 脗路 portmanteau said
so ven do ve throw ye a genda phool, o port? 馃檪 mummyji not fretting yet, eh? are you in london now btw?
Maitri made a few key points – I think these are true regardless of whom you choose to marry, non-desi or desi:
1) Is your parents’ culture yours in its entirety? If not, which parts of it are yours? Define those first. You have to understand your own Indian-ness first before asking someone to marry your parents. 2) Does this non-desi man love you, personality first, and is he willing to accept and appreciate your culture with open arms? When you give yourself and then your parents that level of confidence, it will all work out for the best.
I’ll add to that and state you have to understand what your SO’s desi-ness is, whether they are desi or not. I always thought I’d end up with not just a desi guy, but someone who met all of my extended family’s “criteria” – not just profession and earning capacity, but caste, etc. What bothered me about most of the desi guys I happened to meet is that perhaps they were “right” according to that criteria – but that wasn’t enough to make us truly click. No matter how attractive they were, there was no emotional attraction. I quit trying to force the issue of only interesting myself in the available desi guys after a while, and it made me much happier.
…Once your tall, blonde husband puts on a kurta-pajama, wears a tilak and helps his mother-in-law attach Goddess Varalakshmi to the coconut and sits through a puja better than your own relatives can, those million shattered pieces of their hearts quickly and miraculously reconstruct into a gigantic, beaming whole. And then you will wonder when you, their own daughter, became chopped liver as compared to her new husband…
Oh boy…is that ever true…my mom makes my husband’s favorite dishes when we visit. My mom hasn’t had my “favorite” meal even once since we’ve been married (6 years and counting).
For those of you who have ever been to a traditional Bengali Hindu wedding, you know that the stereotypical groom might mumble the marriage mantras and puts aside the shola’r topor after a brief nod to custom. My man? Yeah, he’s set the bar for the next round of men to marry into the family – he wore the darn hat the entire time, and on our wedding video, he’s practically belting out the mantras (which were phonetically spelled out for him in English, on a cheat sheet hidden somewhere in his dhoti). Apparently he and my dad collaborated on that, as a surprise for me. 馃檪
In that moment I knew why it never worked between me and anybody else. I had underestimated the power of my parenting, the grip of my culture and the strong but subtle shades of India that I reflect.
Raakhee’s statement works just as well for my own “mixed” marriage: I ultimately realized I should marry my man when my dad made the statement, “why can’t [my man] be Bengali? He’d be right for you.” (Dad didn’t realize it at the time, but my man and I were teetering on being friends vs. something more…) What I hadn’t experienced until meeting my man is that whether I dated desi or not, I wasn’t necessarily respected or appreciated for those parts of me that I hold dearest, even if they were understood. It didn’t matter if the guy was desi and already knew, or whether the guy had learned by association with me and other desis.
I am lucky: there’s a lot that my guy doesn’t “get” about me at all, yet he gamely keeps me company, gets involved to the hilt, and keeps a sense of humor and adventure the entire time.
This article is timely, because it reflects what I’ve been observing: up to and including my own wedding, most of my contemporaries married outside of the subcontinent; shortly thereafter, mostly within (though not necessarily within the community – which can still be a bone of contention for parents, grandparents and extended family).
Whomever we marry, as long as there is mutual love and respect, contentment and happiness – that’s what matters.
My story is almost exactly the same as jsp above, except that it was her parents (Jewish) that were mighty cold to me for about 3 years. My parents were totally cool (always had been, so it was not a surprise…Bengali cosmopolitans and all that). Also I agree with most of what you write, except the last paragraph. A strictly bayesian argument can be made for marrying within the group. Also, given that time is limited cultural similarity–as has been mentioned above–is often a ‘shortcut’ for all the issues you are talking about that make people love each other (and this connects to the bayesian or quasi bayesian argument I referred to).
For some of us that ship has already sailed… we have no single culture to return to…
A strictly bayesian argument can be made for marrying within the group.
agreed, but it depends on how you define “group” (your own personal priors). those who marry “out” vs those who don’t aren’t random in terms of their characteristics.
For some of us that ship has already sailed… we have no single culture to return to…
cultures are created and destroyed constantly. sometimes the rate of change varies. that doesn’t mean that people don’t have a vested interested in the current state of their cultures, but those who are formed as a synthesis aren’t “nothing,” but something new.
Yeah thanks razib, I had assumed the prior constitution of identities…
JoAT said –
If you accept someone else’s terms there is no guarantee it will bring you happiness and yes sometimes it means rebelling against all the things that you eventually come back to…And I can’t stress enough the importance of marrying the RIGHT PERSON and not at the RIGHT TIME! There is no right time. No one can tell you when it’s right if you are with the wrong person or there is no person in the picture. I’m grateful for having waited and grateful for my mother’s support while waiting.
Whenever this topic comes up, I can’t help but remember (and smile at) our conversations on cross-cultural marriaegs, from just a few short years ago…we both have come so far since then. 馃檪
One more thing…
115 脗路 jsp said
White is not the same as brown. The day white people can drop the N-bomb (see: this Chris Rock skit) is the day your point will be well-taken.
Polymorphisms in the Dopamine D4 and D2 Receptor Genes and Reproductive and Sexual Behaviors 馃檪
nerd out!
ANNA said: “To each their own. Find love wherever you do, with the person who is right for you, regardless of whether they are brown, white or blue.”
Agreed 100%. But the point of the article is that members of immigrant/ethnic groups are increasingly marrying among themselves, as will the author. Why? If love is not defined on the basis of brown, white or blue, why more and more brown-brown marriages now? As the article states, it comes down to reasons of socio-cultural compatibility. Is that then love based on real attraction or convenience? Because nothing turns on the Barry White and fans the romantic flame in my heart more than “socio-cultural compatibility.”
Again, I’m not attracted to most brown men. You’re not attracted to most non-desi men. That’s not what I’m arguing/judging here. I’m just saying that an increase in brown-brown marriages does not equate fully with “find love wherever you do” to me. See where I’m coming from?
Let’s then admit that, in the end, we all marry for reasons of our own, some of those reasons have nothing to do with love and that’s normal and nobody’s business but our own.
as anna has emphasized above, and i think we kind of implicitly know, everyone is an individual with their own personal set of dispositions, situations, etc. the moment you think you KNOW where someone else is coming from, you gotta pinch yourself. e.g., before i got to know anna, manish, v-man et. al. i had some stereotypes about the type of people who generally date brown. they were really not anywhere near the mark, which makes sense, since they aren’t even necessarily similar to each other! this isn’t to say there aren’t general trends and distributions, but before we presume getting some data is best. e.g., i know that interracial marriages have higher divorce rates.
Is that then love based on real attraction or convenience?
the world doesn’t work in those bins though. the spanish met who entered into relationships with black and native women in the new world were no less racist than those in spain who entered into relationships with white women. that’s a really extreme case, but illustrates how choices are boxed in by the real world set of possibilities.
129 脗路 A N N A said
White people have different rights and standards for allowable speech? If so, what are the limits for people who are half white?
This thread is making my brain hurt…
The built in assumption about “someone who understands my culture” is that there’s a single script for what it means to belong to a category like Indian or Indian-American. And that’s just not the case. In theory, sure, but in reality there is a lot of variation in what being raised Indian-American means. Someone whose parents had the attitude of taking the best of both American and Indian cultures (as mine did) would not have very much in common with someone whose parents came to the US and recreated Little India circa 1970 for their children.
That’s probably why I have a non-desi partner with whom things work and have worked for seven years. We have a shared culture: the city where we grew up at the time we were growing up and all the cultural references that we share. Having lost a parent, he completely understands and appreciates the family-oriented nature of my family: he has never batted an eye that I speak with my mother nearly every day and that when I lived in the same city as my parents (but not with them, which they profess to have preferred) I had brunch with them every weekend. I’ve never had to play cultural tour guide as where we grew up there were people of many ethnicities so there was nothing particularly different or exotic but an understanding that everyone seems to come from somewhere else and respect for differences.
For my parents, there were a few things that mattered: “good” family, good person, education and good career. Good family remains bound to what my partner’s parents did/do and their Ivy educations (and my partner and his siblings Ivy educations), but my parents even managed to expand good career past doctor/lawyer/MBA (by naming a salary number they found suitable…. ha!). The reality is that I’m glad they’re happy and their expectations are met but I would have done whatever I felt like because they didn’t raise me to be a shrinking violet…. and I think they kind of like that.
I hate you Razib
I hate you Razib
you’re welcome?
I see the potential for a great sit com there.. Everybody nags Raman!
“Because nothing turns on the Barry White and fans the romantic flame in my heart more than “socio-cultural compatibility.”
And, Maitri wins the thread! Hilarious.
http://neoindian.org/
One funny place
the world doesn’t work in those bins though.
That’s why I finished my comment by stating that we marry for (often complex) reasons of our own. But, to state that a growing preference for marrying one’s own has only love fueling it seems a bit much to me.
Again, this is not to say that I’m free of any of these problems. I refuse to place my parents in senior living and that is something my husband will have to deal with. And deal with it he will because he loves me, but at what cost to our sanity and relationship? Time will tell. Now for that St. Patty’s Day pint of Guinness.
But, to state that a growing preference for marrying one’s own has only love fueling it seems a bit much to me.
who said that? mebee i didn’t follow the whole thread. mean, that particular woman in the story makes specific attributions, but did she generalize? might have read too quick.
I refuse to place my parents in senior living and that is something my husband will have to deal with.
with the way the economy is working, i think that might not be such a distinctive choice in the future 馃檪
Now for that St. Patty’s Day pint of Guinness. And, again…
PADDY.
131 脗路 Maitri said
I want it all. I want socio-cultural compatibility AND love. For me, at this point in my life, it has to be based on real attraction or I can’t go through with it. If it were about convenience, I wouldn’t be 34 and unmarried. 馃槈
Maitri, I see where you’re coming from, and I agree, especially when you write this:
p.s. As for this:
I think (and I include it as a mere postscript, because it’s just a hazy theory) one of the reasons why there are more brown-brown marriages is because to me, the pool seems wider now than it did even a few years ago. I also know more people who are meeting via networks like Facebook; maybe there was a random Indian girl in the middle of Alaska, in a town with no brown people, but now, she finds this great guy in Seattle because of a mutual friend, etc. People who wouldn’t be caught dead on Shaadi.com see no problem with meeting people via FB. I’m no scientist (I leave that to you!), I’m just wondering if part of the explanation for more “marrying within” is the internet. 馃檪
Gandhi says relax!
I think one of the reasons why there are more brown-brown marriages is because to me, the pool seems wider now than it did even a few years ago.
i think this is the most plausible hypothesis. the early wave of bavarian jewish merchants in the USA often married gentile women. far fewer of the second big ashkenazi wave which resulted in 99% of american jews did. but today isn’t 1900, so the outmarriage rate will be higher from the beginning for brownz (and brownz aren’t as coherent a group as ashkenazi jews from poland-lithuania).
To each their own. Find love wherever you do, with the person who is right for you, regardless of whether they are brown, white or blue.”
Don’t forget midgets, little people need love too.
One more big reason..more of us are getting rid of our facial hair..even men!
Ok..i am a jackass :(..gnite!
Cindy @61: I’m kind of the same way–shy, introverted, not the most attractive, not interested in medicine/business/engineering and nerdy (i.e. guys never interested in me). And because of these characteristics, I’ve been the “outcast” of my Indian community since I was a kid, so I don’t think I’d ever be considered in a bidding war. But think about it this way–would you really want to be with someone and his family who judges you on superficial worth? You should maybe talk with your parents and tell them you’re not ready to be in a relationship and you want to focus on your schoolwork.
This is kind of a sensitive subject. I know I’ve been guilty of looking down on Indian girls that date white guys. Even though logically I know everyone has a right to happiness, it bothers me some. I think the reason it does it that Indian guys arent looked at as desireable by females of other races the way Indian girls are looked upon as desireable my males of other races. Added to this are the Indian girls that swear they will never ever date and Indian guy and will even go so far as to tell their friends and whoever will listen that Indian guys suck. I recall from the previous post on interacial dating that there was one Indian girl that had a website lambasting Indian guys. (I also recall Anna standing up for us, which is why I love reading Anna’s posts)
I guess my problem isnt so much with who you date as it is for why you do it. If you date because you are looking for love and you happen to find someone who isnt of your race. More power to you. But if you are dating someone because you feel like all Indian guys suck and wont even give us a chance, I cant feel sympathy for you. Does that make sense?
And don芒鈧劉t forget, for the aspirational Asian, white no longer guarantees success and brown no longer needs to be shunned.