Well, here we go again. Mass protests have erupted in Pakistan, as Nawaz Sharif and others have embarked on a “long march” to protest a recent judicial decision barring the Sharif brothers from holding office. Among other things, the protesters are demanding the reinstatement of Supreme Court Justice Iftikar Choudhry. But one gets the feeling that what is really at stake here is Zardari’s grip on power.
[Update: According to Reuters, Zardari has agreed to reinstate Choudhry, which should defuse the crisis somewhat, and perhaps stabilize his own grip on power. Also see SAJA, and #longmarch at Twitter, for the Tweets of the Twitterers]
First, let me just point readers to a blog from the newspaper, Dawn, with updates on the “Long March” protests. If the stuff hits the fan on Monday in the next few weeks, when the protesters go to Islamabad, this might be a good place to get the latest information.
Second, weren’t we just doing this in Pakistan last year? In a recent post on Michael Dorf’s blog, Anil Kalhan argues that the parallels are too strong to ignore. I’m not entirely sure I agree, since Musharraf was a much stronger leader before his power started to erode. That said, Zardari’s over-zealous response to threats to his authority has had a lot in common with Musharraf’s own response.
There is also a very detailed account of the back-story behind the current protests by Beena Sarwar here. Among other things, Sarwar notes that the coalition supporting the current protests, which includes the Jamaat-e-Islami, might cause progressives abroad to pause before we raise our fists in pro-democracy solidarity:
In this situation, political instability is distracting at best and dangerous at worst. The ‘long march’ demanding the reinstatement of chief justice Iftikhar Mohammed Choudhry, spearheaded by the legal fraternity and sections of civil society, has ready allies among the right-wing political opposition.
This includes Sharif’s PML-N and the Jamaat-e-Islami, a mainstream religious party sympathetic to militant Islam, as well as others sympathetic to the Taliban, like ex-chief Inter-Services Intelligence (ISI) and anti-India hawk Gen. (retd.) Hamid Gul, retired bureaucrat Roedad Khan who brutally quashed political opposition during the Zia years, and cricket hero-turned politician Imran Khan, chief of the Tehrik-e-Insaaf (Movement for Justice).
All these forces boycotted the 2008 polls, except Sharif who rescinded his boycott decision after Bhutto convinced him that elections were the only way forward.
Long-festering tensions between the PPP and PML-N came to a head with a Supreme Court ruling of Feb 25 barring Sharif and his brother Shahbaz Sharif from holding elected office. Bhutto’s widower, President Asif Ali Zardari is widely believed to be behind this controversial ruling. (link)
Finally, the reliable and independent-minded journalist Pervez Hoodbhoy has a detailed analysis in the latest issue of Frontline, on what he sees as Pakistan’s precipitous slide towards theocracy. His perspective on what is happening in Pakistan is quite alarming to me. Among other things, Hoodbhoy’s article makes me think that it almost doesn’t matter who is running the show in Islamabad; in terms of curriculum in the schools and the cultural mindset of ordinary Pakistanis, the Islamization Zia initiated nearly thirty years ago has steadily continued to progress even under subsequent leaders. (At least, that is what Hoodbhoy seems to be arguing. Any comments from Pakistani readers on this argument?)
Who do you mean by “in terms of curriculum in the schools and the cultural mindset of ordinary Pakistanis”? The curriculum is not different from any other country. Are you talking about madrasas? Madrasas are perfectly legitimate schools throughout the Muslim world, not unlike religious schools–like Sunday school or Jewish centers for kids (yes, I know that people will come in here and argue that Christians and Jews don’t breed terrorists, but I beg to differ–just because the weapons are more sophisticated–cluster bombs that can kill 1300 people in 22 days versus bombs strapped to a body–doesn’t mean the ideology is any less terrorizing).
Zardari taking these measures to stop these legitimate voices is unacceptable. Democracy is democracy–everyone gets to speak and should be able to speak.
Any country will slide towards one or the other end of the pendulum (theocracy, neoconservatism, socialism, etc) when a state is fragmented and under siege (as Pakistan has been for 8+ years, and Afghanistan for 30+ years). Silencing voices is not the way to move forward. If whole scale murderers like Netanyahu and Sharon can have legitimate political voices, then why not others? Just because one is deemed a friend and another a terrorist, doesn’t make it reality.
It would be nice to let Pakistanis determine their own fate–without outside interference. Pakistan has more to fear from the fact that on one side it has a hostile India coalition with racist and anti-Muslim Israel and on another side hundreds of thousands of U.S. troops occupying Afghanistan. It is surrounded by hostile forces. My heart goes out to Pakistan and its people.
Nilufar, First, I think there are some people looking at this that are thinking that what is happening is not simply the expression of free speech, but a rather naked attempt at a power-grab by Nawaz and Shahbaz Sharif. Given the security crisis in the country, a protest movement like this could be seen as irresponsible.
Second, I was paraphrasing Hoodbhoy in that sentence you quote. Hoodbhoy clearly feels that it’s not just Madrasas, but Pakistan’s government /public school curriculum that has contributed to this. Here is a long quote from Hoodbhoy where he talks about the issue of Islamization in the public school curriculum in Pakistan:
“Similar sentiments exist in a large part of the Pakistani public media. The commonly expressed view is that Islamic radicalism is a problem only in FATA and that madrassas are the only jehad factories around. This could not be more wrong. Extremism is breeding at a ferocious rate in public and private schools within Pakistan’s towns and cities. Left unchallenged, this kind of education will produce a generation incapable of living together with any except strictly their own kind. Pakistan’s education system demands that Islam be understood as a complete code of life, and creates in the mind of the schoolchild a sense of siege and constant embattlement by stressing that Islam is under threat everywhere.
“The government-approved curriculum, prepared by the Curriculum Wing of the Federal Ministry of Education, is the basic road map for transmitting values and knowledge to the young. By an Act of Parliament, passed in 1976, all government and private schools (except for O-level schools) are required to follow this curriculum. It is a blueprint for a religious fascist state.
“The masthead of an illustrated primer for the Urdu alphabet states that it has been prepared by Iqra Publishers, Rawalpindi, along “Islamic linesâ€. Although not an officially approved textbook, it has been used for many years by some regular schools, as well as madrassas, associated with the Jamiat-ul-Ulema-e-Islam (JUI), an Islamic political party that had allied itself with General Pervez Musharraf.
“The world of the Pakistani schoolchild was largely unchanged even after September 11, 2001, which led to Pakistan’s timely desertion of the Taliban and the slackening of the Kashmir jehad. Indeed, for all his hypocritical talk of “enlightened moderationâ€, Musharraf’s educational curriculum was far from enlightening. It was a slightly toned-down copy of that under Nawaz Sharif which, in turn, was identical to that under Benazir Bhutto, who inherited it from Zia-ul-Haq.
“Fearful of taking on powerful religious forces, every incumbent government refused to take a position on the curriculum and thus quietly allowed young minds to be moulded by fanatics. What might happen a generation later has always been a secondary matter for a government challenged on so many sides.
“The promotion of militarism in Pakistan’s so-called “secular†public schools, colleges and universities had a profound effect upon young minds. Militant jehad became part of the culture on college and university campuses. Armed groups flourished, invited students for jehad in Kashmir and Afghanistan, set up offices throughout the country, collected funds at Friday prayers, and declared a war without borders. Pre-9/11, my university was ablaze with posters inviting students to participate in the Kashmir jehad. After 2001, this slipped below the surface.
I strongly agree with this, there tends for Pakistani leaders to conflate regime security with that of the state. Accordingly any protests against a regime or government thend to be turned into entire confrontations with the state itself. (this is actually a disturbing trend that exists in other states across the region as well but that is a separate topic). I think there is a broader need to formulate a wider and stable consensus on issues concerning political power and resource distribution that impact Pakistanis’ political and economic health but this does tend to be resisted by the elites in power.
You point out valid concerns about the membership of parts of the protest movement; but in reality, anybody familiar with broad-based movements in this region will know that many supporters will not be particularly liberal or progressive in several ways. I don’t think this means that their demands should not evoke sympathy or not be supported. My broad impression is that demands for more accountability and less centralisation of power are far more popular than the Jamat et al. themselves. In making the state less insulated and more accountable such popular demands seem very necessary. It is difficult watching the symbolism, used by this kind of political yatra in support of democratic rights against a state that is perceived to be witholding them, which has deep reverberations for anybody influenced by the history of the region to remain neutral.
Also what is it with all these recurring mentions of Imram Khan that crop up across the blogosphere on this issue – is he really taken seriously as a politician outside the celebrity media?
There appears to be two different issues going on here–and possibly I am responding to your conflating the two. Hoodbhoy is talking about the legitimately alarming wahabization of Islam (and this is something most Muslim countries have been trying to counter for years)–which he is connecting to militarism. I think Hoodbhoy equates young people volunteering to fight for justice with militant jehadism. The reality is that young Pakistanis volunteering to fight with their brothers in Afghanistan or Kashmir is no different than young American men and women volunteering to serve in Iraq or Afghanistan. One is considered patriotic and the other “militant Jehad.”
On the other hand, the protest in this case is against the exrajudicial rules by which Zardari is running the country–which is unrelated (insofar as anything is unrelated) to the supposed Islamization (whatever that even means) of Pakistan. I don’t see this as a power grab at all. I see it as Zardari reacting like the closeted dictator that he appears to be.
I think it is really dangerous to Islamicize everything related to Muslim countries. It only feeds the boogeyman that legitimizes India’s, Israel’s, and America’s ever increasing stockpile of weapons of mass destruction, and makes anything that happens in Muslim countries a counter to that in the West. It’s an artificial dichotomy and a dangerous rhetorical game.
I agree with Amardeep re the extent of Islamization in Pakistan. I spent two years at LUMS (one of the best schools in Pakistan) and was in an Islamic Studies class for a while (until I was switched out due to scheduling reasons). On the very first day, the US-returned Prof. told all of us that there was no such thing as a secular or cultural Muslim and that anyone who wasn’t born a Muslim or subsequently converted was unfortunately going to hell. Needless to say, I found such rhetroric pretty disturbing. Islamization is pervasive in the society, and not just restricted to madrassas
In the issue at hand, Zardari is acting exactly like Musharraf, using the courts to get rid of his political opponents. While the Sharifs are not the most wonderful people in the world, the PML-N was the democratically elected party in Punjab. Getting rid of them and imposing governer’s rule in the most populous province was really not a good move. Pakistan’s tragedy is that all the so-called “leaders” don’t really care about the people or improving society, they care about staying in power at any cost. It is our stupidity as citizens of Pakistan or members of the diaspora, that we keep letting the same jokers into power.
Amardeep, I’d like to point you to another blog that is also carrying live reports from the ‘long march.’ I think these are more up-to-date that the blog on Dawn The
http://teeth.com.pk/blog/
the teeth.com live reports are updated nearly every minutes. As I write this, I see someone post that the Pakistani PM is going to address the country (no date or time given).
This morning Teeth Maestro also posted about an email by Pakistani journalist Afzal Khan titled “The Deal is clinched, but the show must go on.” An interesting read.
DAWN live tv on the web is saying Gilani is set to address the nation soon.
Shehla
Shehla
American men and women abide by certain norms. We agree that torturing people is bad. (Even when we have certain assholes in power who disagree with them they find themselves forced to defend their actions by dancing around the definition of “torture.”) We grant that willfully targeting civilians because we’re too scared to face off against an adequately armed foe is an act of cowardice. We are willing to enact strict guidelines and rules of engagement and we make damn sure that when we go into a country we don’t quarter ourselves in people’s homes at the point of a gun. We court-martial soldiers if they rape the locals rather than pat them on the backs. That’s why jihadis are bad. If they want to volunteer they can volunteer in a formal, organized military and live by rules of proper conduct and behavior. Not join up with gangs of petty street-thugs drunk on a religious fervor that they are willing to skew to justify any political agenda.
Reformists say otherwise. http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:RqMcGzc9zaUJ:www.tc.columbia.edu/cice/Archives/7.1/71ahmad.pdf+pakistani+curriculum&cd=8&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us&client=firefox-a
And the CSM is on it as well. I’ve known them to give a pretty fair shake to most issues in the past. http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0121/p04s03-wosc.html
This book, though, I find to be the most effective in pointing out how these ideologues are sowing the seeds for continued enmity between India and Pakistan in order to secure their hold on power. If there aren’t problems they will make sure to stir some up. (See Mumbai 26/11). http://outlookindia.com/full.asp?fodname=20090323&fname=Aatish+Taseer+(F)&sid=3
Be careful with that line of reasoning. Using instability and being under siege as a “get out of jail free” card can come back to bite you in the butt when your adversaries decide that the Jihadis and their enablers stand to put them under siege.
Netanyahu and Sharon make their voices heard through a functioning political system. They don’t force their will down by arming thugs and circumventing the law and they don’t rig the political process.
Amardeep, very nice post. I read Hoodbhoy’s article last night myself with great concern. I think the broader problem Pakistan is facing is a crisis of both institutional legitimacy for state institutions and personal legitimacy for the major politicians, who are each compromised and flawed in some way. The motley crew of supporters for the Long March – from Imran Khan to Sharif to the Jamaat-e-Islami (JI) – have only one thing in common – they detest the present dispensation (not just Zardari himself or the PPP-led government, but the broader politico-military socioeconomy of Pakistan) and hope to replace it with something else, on the details of which they each differ.
The long-running lawyer’s movement has given them all a convenient bandwagon, and they have all jumped on it. On the JI, it must be said that they tend often to play the role of the Trojan horse in Pakistan politics – they join coalitions only to jettison them at critical moments – often, it is said, at the bidding of the ISI. But this can work both ways, and if they are seen to be part of this, they could end up broadening the constituency that finds them appealing, and that is certainly of concern.
To me it seems clear that, no matter the details of what unfolds in the next few days or weeks, Zardari will lose in relative terms: Kayani plus Gilani plus Sharif plus the non-Zardari (old Bhutto) wing of the PPP – might even manage a loose troika-like arrangement, while he continues as a figurehead, if even that is allowed as a figleaf. Some Western strategists now seem to think this combination will have greater credibility in a modified strategy of negotiating with elements of the Taliban, while taking the fight to the hardcore AQ + Taliban. Zardari is no use to anyone (internally or externally) unless he has some, even if not broad, legitimacy within Pakistan, and that he does not have.
Indian elite attitudes are also interesting in this context. They seem to favor a stronger role for the Army in Pakistan, see Zardari as essentially powerless but needlessly polarizing, and some even favor a return to power by Musharraf.
Nilufar, I don’t have quotes but have been told that Pakistani schoolbooks repeatedly and forcefully paint Indians and Hindus as villains and enemies. And portray a very different version of sub-continental history than is accepted by any other historians anywhere else. And I’m talking about normal schools, not madrassas. The curriculum itself very aggressively pushes forth a hateful and propogandistic agenda.
Wow. Your logic train never left the station on that one. What scares me though is that you don’t come of as Tr0ll either, you actually believe that Pakistani Jihadi’s gunning down pilgrims, unarmed men women and children, blowing up schools and beheading dissenter as a ‘Fight for Justice”. I guess you make the ideal case for the Pakistani educational system and curriculum.
I don’t understand this political problem in Pakistan at all. The Chief Justice had issues with Musharaff but with him gone, why doesn’t Zardari just reinstate the judges ? Does he fear that the corruption cases against him will be reopened by the activist judges ? I don’t understand why Sharif has to be disqualified either. Or does Zardari fear that a non-PPP heavyweight will erode his authority ? I have a suspicion that this is a deliberate mayhem and an indirect way of showing disapproval for the war on terror. After all Sharif is the face of Saudi patronization (and the infamous Kargil withdrawal drama with Clinton, followed by the refusal to allow Musharaff’s plane to land and the coup), which have been the source of all the present day problems for Pakistan.
Yoga Fire:
The usual ignorant brainwashed rightwing nonsense. America nuked 100s of thousands of women, children and other civilians in Hiroshima and Nagasaki for precisely that reason. If that was not the worst war crime in history then there is no such thing as a war crime.
It is the fight between moderate Army factions (whose leaders are Musharaff and Kyani)currently have US and western world support and militant Army faction (Zia sympathizers) who fund their agenda with money and weapon smuggling. Reinstating chief justice means defying Musharaff and in turn making all moderate Army mad and seriously nobody can afford it. As for Zardari and Jilani they both spent 8 and 7 years respectively in jail during Sharif tenure.
Priya things are more complex the it looks, Same District Coordination Officer (DCO), Deputy Inspector General (DIG) Operation Lahore and Deputy Attorney General of Pakistan (DAGP)who resigned in protest were nowhere near when Sri Lankan team was fired upon. Something tells me fundamentalist faction of Army still running the show. BTW that Mumbai attackers were also from Punjab and Benazir Bhutto too was assassinated in Punjab. So giving in to these goons means making moderate faction of Army mad who in the only ray of hope in these hard times.
well said Neha you know they call Lal mosque goons shaheed and ironically never come on roads when these injustices are done to s.
Okay first, the alternative would have been to launch a full-scale land invasion of Japan with a loss-of-life that would have been just as heavy. Just because the loss-of-life from a bombing is more lopsided in our favor doesn’t make it heinous.
Now Dresden, that was a war-crime. The firebombing of Tokyo can also be argued as a war-crime. But Hiroshima and Nagasaki, not really.
But more importantly, worst war crime in history? In history? Seriously? This happened during World War II.
World War Two
Does that ring any bells? Do you vaguely sort-of kinda remember who we were fighting against during World War II? I’m not sure if you recall, but the German reich had built these camps into which they marched ethnic minorities (mostly Jews and Romani), people with disabilities, and other “undesirables” and gassed them to death before grinding their bones into char for industrial factories, processing their flesh as feed for animals, their fat as fuel for candles, and their skin for tanning leather. Meanwhile, the Japanese raped Nanjing. They didn’t just rape individuals in Nanjing, oh no. The rapine and pillage was so thorough that they were considered to have raped the city of Nanjing herself. This was barbarism that rivaled the heyday of such illustrious figures as Pizarro or Hulagu Khan.
But it must be interesting living in your world where -5 and -5,000 are the exact same number. What’s it like to have no sense of scale or proportion?
About school books Nawaz Sharif went one step further and he introduced Shariat law.
16 · Neena said
I suppose if he’s going to act a fool it’s best to do it right after the military was taken out of power since they’ll probably not be in a position to set up an orderly coup. Boldly marching his country off a cliff.
doc,
I think you seem to have forgotten that whole sticky “Rape of Nanjing” thing. Y’know, where the Japanese slaughtered between 200K to 300K civilians, as well as raped 80K women. Or, if we just want to focus on sheer numbers, we can turn to the fact that the Japanese killed anywhere from 3 to 10 MILLION Chinese during the course of the Second World War.
Sorry, but saying that the nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki are “the worst war crime in history” is woefully ignorant of the history of the Sino-Japanese conflict and frankly insulting to the Chinese, Koreans, Indonesians, Filipinos and others who lost their lives at the hands of the Japanese Imperial war machine. I mean, we’re talking about a regime whose military was sanctioned to “Kill All, Burn All, and Loot All,” yet we’re calling the nuclear bombings there the greatest war crime in history?
Please.
this is why nuclear proliferation sucks. you have to read about messed up countries and pretend that you really care about the people, as opposed to all the insane things they might get up to….
19 · razib said
Nuclear proliferation also sucks because it makes it easier for nukes to get into the hands of utterly amoral organizations like Al Qaeda. The more unstable regimes that get their hands on nuclear toys, the more likely we are to see a nuke set off in the middle of a major city by some d-bag doing it in the name of some “cause.”
One million Iraqis dead. Largest American military base in Iraq. Afghanistan occupied. Southern Lebanon decimated in 2006. 1,300 killed in Gaza. Millions of Palestinian refugees. Dictators in Egypt, Saudia–installed and sustained by you-know-who. Since the 1950s, Arab and South Asian Muslim countries have been under siege.
But despite all that, I suppose Muslims should not be fighting back at all. If they do, they are militants.
Wow, your logic train was never in the station. Are you arguing that YOU have not been indoctrinated to see the Muslims as killing machines? Are you not being brainwashed at all? Where are you getting your Islamophobic world view? Isn’t all of American media an extended version of a madrasa? Where do you all get your hatred of anything Muslim? The very foundation of your thought is Muslims=bad, Christians and Jews=good. Where do you get that? American soldiers=good, Iraqi fighters=bad. Israeli soldiers=good, Palestinian fighters=bad. And your knowledge basis is not the result of propaganda?
Is there no strong Christian apocalyptic foundation to American empire building (good versus evil?) ? Isn’t Israel created on militant Jewish principles? But those militant presences are okay because of the veneer of “civilized” thought and action they project?
You are parroting back American and Israeli propaganda about Arabs and Muslims. You are just as indoctrinated as those Pakistanis you mock.
I recommend you read 17, 18th and 19th century rationale given by civilized Europe while it wiped out natives in the West Indies, Americas, and Australisia. Read the way Muslims are portrayed throughout the colonial period of the 15-20th (500+ years) centuries, and there is no difference between now and then. Europeans and Americans have never seen Muslims as human–and have portrayed all things Muslim as backward, savage, etc. And that propaganda is your madarasa-style indoctrination. That’s why no one batted an eye over the butchery of Gazans in January–or the fact that Israel is even now refusing much needed food and medicine in or the fact that Gaza has been in lock down and starving for 2+ years. Who cares, right? Those jihadis beheading people are horrible, but the whole scale starving of Palestinians is just? How many Afghanis have been killed by U.S. forces? Do you know? Do you care? The cluster bombs (worse than land mines) littering southern Lebanon–that’s civilized? But Hezbollah–which has never occupied another country–is evil?
Whose propaganda are you spewing?
Yoga: Your justification of American and Israeli terror is amusing, even cute. Anyway, I am fully aware of how the dominant narratives make butchery palatable and even celebratory. One person’s patriot/hero is another person’s terrorist.
I suppose you think that Afghanistan should have just been left in Russian control? And what about most of the Arab world? Algeria should still be a French colony? Iran should have kept the Shah in power? There should still be American military bases in Saudia and Beirut?
I know how you will answer–and it will be a cute answer.
Anyway, this conversation is not about Islam at all. It is about the fact that Zardari should be reinstating judges, and returning the country to true civilian rule.
The Japanese survived. Given that I can name a half a dozen peoples did not or at th very least suffered more at the hands of others, just from the top of my head, (hint: Hindu Kush does not mean hindus are happy), it can hardly be termed as the worst war crime in history.
That means that what you are saying is that you think that there is no such thing as a war crime.
Luckily for you the US does not feel the same way, or it would have been more accurate to rename the land of the pure as the land of glass and everlasting glow by now.
If one is going to state on the one hand that “it is really dangerous to Islamicize everything to do with Muslim countries” then perhaps it is unwise, as a rhetorical, tactical and logical device, to equate Americans fighting in an American army in Afghanistan with Pakistanis fighting in Kashmir and Afghanistan for their “brothers”. Since the “brothers” are not Pakistani, and since the Pakistanis are not fighting in Congo (presumably because those folks are not their “brothers”), what commonality is it that makes Afghanis and Kashmiris “brothers”–skin colour? If so, there are a few places in Central America and hell, South Central L.A., that could also use Pakistani help. Moreover, as far as I am aware, Pakistan is formally a U.S. ally regarding the U.S. activity in Afghanistan. Ergo, if Pakistanis are fighting for their “brothers” by fighting against the U.S. in Afghanistan, they are also fighting against themselves and are traitors to their country, just as John Lindh Walker is a traitor to his country. Now, one may state that a greater ideology or brotherhood overrides mere geographical boundaries, but then, assuming that the brotherhood is one of membership in the Muslim community, one is bound to accept the “Islamicized” characterization. Finally, if one is going to make the war one of ideology about “brothers”, then presumably one has absolutely no problem with U.S. activities in the region being proudly described as a “crusade”. After all, lots of families have brothers.
This is not an attack on the merits of the argument about the true threats to Pakistan and the argument that Pakistan is reflecting the impact of various external forces. It is merely a reminder that it is bad form to want to have the debating cake and eat it too.
Nilufar, given the preemience of western millitary power right now, US can easily make the european actions of the 18th and 19th century seem like benevolence personified. Trouble in Iraq & pakistan? — nothing a couple of H-bombs caanot solve. Permenantly. Luckily for you, the west has moved on, and tried to restrain itself. With all its flaws Western actions in the 21st century have been far more moral than the Islamic world. The only conclusion is that the western schools must be teaching something that the islamic world ought to follow.
Nilufar,
Cultural relativism, eh? So, in other words, all causes are equally justifiable, given their cultural framework?
Oh oh oh, I wanna play this game! Wanna know where? I remember being a young, liberal, “open-minded” student at a major American university and meeting with some of the students at a Muslim student booth and asking how I, a young Jewish American male, could help build bridges.
The answer? “GTFO.” I mean, not in those words exactly, but those were the words. I was then handed a pamphlet on Jew-evil and sent on my merry way. Then, when I lived in Japan, I had a guy I talked to on occasion who, up until the point that he knew that I’m a blood-sucking Joo, was quite nice to me. The moment he found out about my Joodom, he stopped having anything to do with me.
Again, warm and fuzzies.
Now, I may not be “Islamophobic,” and I am still interested in building bridges and all that happy poopy stuff, but I’ll tell ya, it’s been a real uphill struggle to come out of my impressionable college youth years feeling like the people on the other side of the divide are interested in meeting in the middle. Poor sample? Perhaps. But my “Islamophobia” has very little to do with the big bad omnipresent media machine transmitting messages of anti-Muslim thought into my weak and servile brain.
Holy crap… war is evil? I think you may be on to some original thought here! I dare say that you could win some sort of prize for this.
Ah, moral relativism. The same school of thought that led someone to saying that “George Washington is not necessarily any different from a terrorist.”
Here’s a shocker: YES. The bases should be there. The bases are a stabilizing factor in the region. We all like to imagine that if the big bad evil weevil US just left, then everything would be hunky dory, but that’s a load of bull. Any halfway decent IR scholar can tell you that American hegemony is, despite its ills, a stabilizing force worldwide. International anarchy ain’t pretty, and having one fewer big player to moderate the scene is worse than the vacuum.
Remember Hobbes? Y’know, that whole “nasty, brutish, and short” thing? That’s the world without stabilizing powers. Are you also going to say that East Asia would be worse off without the 7th Fleet hunting down pirates in the Strait of Malacca?
Scwartz: As a Muslim, I have had my share of warm and fuzzy treatment by [Jews], so let’s stop the woe-is-me, those-nasty-muslims-victimized-me-when-I-just-want-to-build-bridges.” I have had Israelis and [Jews] scream in my face and call me antisemite (the oh-so-familiar-argument), so save your victim-mantra. Yeah, Muslims treated you so badly–and [Jews]don’t treat Muslims like shit? And now your argument is that even the Japanese treat you badly. Wow. You poor thing. I guess the Muslims have gotten to the Japs, eh? Let’s nuke the Japs? Who’s with me?
And yes, please, build more military bases in Muslims countries to save the Muslims from themselves. Thank you, avuncular superior being, for saving the world. While you are at it, build more settlements in the West Bank and set up more road blocks. Those bridges you are advocating are so especially awesome for world peace. And please bobby trap the entire region–we are a bunch of savages anyway.
OMG, I totally agree. Muslims should follow western schools of thought and build military bases, carry out targeted assassinations, monopolize a country’s natural resources…oh, that will be so much fun!
Nilufar,
This is a warning. Please refer to people from religious groups (such as Jews) without making fun of their names. I edited your previous comment to correct the way you spelled it, which was insulting.
If you continue to make comments that could be deemed insulting along those lines, you risk being banned.
27 · SM Intern said
Intern: I was mimicking/mocking the way SCHWARTZ was spelling the word. Read his post and note how he has spelled the word. Be consistent, please.
Yoga Fire:
What a totally amoral hypocrite. Nuking 100s of thousands of women and children to avoid american military casualties is nothing heinous at all to this yogi who just self-righteously boasted that “We grant that willfully targeting civilians because we’re too scared to face off against an adequately armed foe is an act of cowardice.”
The Schwartz:
Another amoral bloodthirsty hypocrite. So you actually think that the atrocities of the japanese military in WWII somehow justifies deliberately killing innocent japanese women and children??? Absolutely disgusting.
Actually, it was a Muslim in Japan who stopped associating with me the second he found out I’m a blood-sucking Jew. Sorry if I wasn’t clear about that.
See, I wasn’t looking for pity, but to show you that your argument that it’s the media and the propaganda machine that’s making me fear teh Muslims. It’s not. If anything, the American media goes way too out of its way to be PC and preface every story about militant Muslim activities with a “moderate” Muslim spokesperson. Unless, of course, you’re referring to stupid shows like 24, in which case I say it’s just timeliness. I mean, would it make a lot of sense to have a British M:6 agent as a bad guy?
Really, though, the problem is your argument that it’s the big bad media machine that’s brainwashing Westerners into thinking badly of Muslims. That’s a component, to be sure, but it’s hard to have a big bad media machine reporting endlessly on bad apples if you simply have few bad apples.
I wonder if Northern Irish Catholics felt they were portrayed unfairly by the Western media in the past?
Oh, wait…
Nice quip about nuking the Japanese, by the way. Considering that I work for a Japanese firm, have lived in Japan for almost 2 years of my life, and speak, read, and write Japanese, your argument is pretty hollow. Just because I don’t think that the nuclear bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki = The Rape of Nanking in terms of evil doesn’t mean I think they were good things. Again, moral relativism rears its head.
No, you see, I live in “the real world.” In “the real world,” international relations isn’t huggles and snuggles! It’s guns and occasional handshakes-with-knives-behind-the-back.
You see, in the world I live in, there are military bases all over the world, including Asia, Latin America, and Europe. I don’t hear the Okinawans saying they have a Marine base there because the big bad Americans are picking on the poor widdle Asians. They just tell us to GTFO. I find that perfectly reasonable from their perspective. However, I also don’t believe that East Asia would be better without American presence, just like I don’t think that Western Europe would be better off without American presence.
Again, there’s this “real world” thing you don’t learn about in the sociology of victimhood classes.
It’s pretty obvious that he was referring to a Muslim in Japan.
It’s funny, because the Brits and the Americans who followed them have basically used Pakistan as an outsourced military base to keep the Indians from getting uppity over the past 60 years or so. And now the Chinese are doing the same thing. But when Israel is used as an instrument then Israel = BAD because it’s being done to “Muslims.” But when Pakistan is created by the same people to do the same thing to Indians, it’s all good!
This is great. You can hold Indians and Israelis and Americans to saintly standards of liberty and tolerance while completely excusing any barbarism being perpetrated by jihadis who, in your mind, are just masters of karate and friendship for everyone.
I already said before, you might want to be careful how willing you are to justify immoral actions with moral relativism. The only reason Pakistan still exists is because India holds itself to an ethical standard higher than “Anything goes as long as we can come up with some minor infraction against us to justify it.” You can’t insist that everyone else play fair from one side of your mouth and then excuse unfairness from the other. Eventually people will get fed up with that crap and wise up to the duplicity.
Hey, don’t let facts get in the way of coming up with ridiculous moral equivalencies.
I find it fascinating that you still can’t see the difference between -5 and -5,000.
doc,
Learn to read. I said that your argument that the nuclear bombings of Nagasaki and Hiroshima are the “worst war crimes in history” rings hollow relative to many of the other horrific acts of World War II. I just think you can’t be bothered to look past some strange form of anti-Americanism to realize that there were far worse acts committed during the two World Wars– hell, the fire bombings of Tokyo were probably a more criminal and downright CRUEL act than the nuclear bombings. But y’know, that involves knowing more than just the pop history most of us learn about the Second World War.
Never mind that the alternative to the two nuclear bombings may have actually been far worse. But I suppose that it’s moral to kill hundreds of thousands more as long as you do it on the ground, right? It’s only bombs that make it an immoral act.
Personally, I find it FAR more amoral to say that the deaths of about 240K is the WORST WAR CRIME IN HISTORY when put up against the tapestry of horrific acts of World War II alone. I dunno about you, but I think killing upwards of 10 MILLION is a worse act.
But then again, I think that 10 million is a bigger and more shocking figure than 240K. I might be off on the math there.
BREAKING NEWS: Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry reportedly to be restored as Chief Justice of Pakistan.
If this was more than rhetoric and you really were looking for answers look at: The subtle Subversion: A report on Curricula and Textbooks in Pakistan.
It is a report done by the Sustainable Development Policy Institute based in Islamabad.
Obviously curricula are increasingly different from any other country!
34 · Anil said
Fantastic news! A win for Pakistan–and for a, hopefully, wholly civil government.
I will leave the rest of the commenters here to conjure up ways to colonize those nasty Muslims for world peace.
Note to the SM interns/bloggers: If you will cover Pakistan or Bangladesh, please try to do so without making us out to be a bunch of Islamofascists, whose moves (protests, etc.) are determined only by our savage understanding of the Ko-rayn. Most of us actually have critical and intellectual faculties fully working–even if you don’t believe that to be possible.
What kind of yoga is Yoga Fire doing that he is advocating dropping bombs?
Bomb them with love!!!
OM SHANTI. SHANTI. SHANTI.
So what kind of plan does India have in case Pakistan implodes or explodes. Can we expect migrations like 1947, but 10 times larger. Any plans India seems to have to handle this? There are no real alternatives than India for any Pakistani not leaving on an airplane.
The Schwartz:
So the “strategic” slaughter of 100s of thousands of japanese women and children “rings hollow” to you? Show us another war crime in history that killed so many innocent women, children, old folks in such a short span of time as the deliberate mass murders of Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
Yoga Fire:
The fact that you just cant justify away is that the americans who you lied never “willfully target civilians” have done just that numerous times in their history with the most criminal example being the deliberate strategy of bombing civilians from the air while they sleep, Hiroshima and Nagasaki being the culmination of this criminal behaviour. It is pretty obvious from your posts that you are incapable of thinking morally or rationally.
I think it is futile to get into who is morally right or who is morally wrong in issues like war/violence.
Unless you are Gandhi and are totally against violence you cannot justify one side over the other. For example, US missiles repeatedly whack the tribal regions of Pakistan and kills scores of people.
I’m sure not all those killed are folks who deserve to be killed. It could be that not even one person deserves the fate.
· Anil on March 15, 2009 07:41 PM · Direct link · “Quoteâ€Â(?)
BREAKING NEWS: Iftikhar Muhammad Chaudhry reportedly to be restored as Chief Justice of Pakistan.
If this true and Iftikar chaudhry is resored as supreme court cheif justice, I wonder what must have been the deal between sharif and zardari.I don’t think Mr.10% president Mr.Zardari will be fool to agree for his corruption caseso be reopened and investigated by chaudhry.Will chaudhry investigate the cases against Mushrraf for dissolving the pakistani constitution and supreme court judges?If this is not the case what is the big deal?all this mess for Mr.Chaudhry to get his salary and pension? or to divert the attention of international community?
Lets consentarte on the important issues, Pakistan’s commitment against fighting internal terrorisam,taliban and al-Quida. India is waiting for Pakistan’s action regarding the Mumbai terror attacks by its non-state terrorists.
36 · Nilufar said
Or else ?
Also what is it with all these recurring mentions of Imram Khan that crop up across the blogosphere on this issue – is he really taken seriously as a politician outside the celebrity media?
I wondered about that as well. Off Topic, Vir Sanghvi has this funny anecdote about Imran:
In reply to Nilufar’s:
Europeans and Americans have never seen Muslims as human–and have portrayed all things Muslim as backward, savage, etc.
There is a reason for this. Briefly, the modern European outlook on civilization is based on rationality — only if you have a history and culture based on logic and experimentation and fine distinctions, you are considered rational, and civilized. Everyone and everything else is savage and backward. This big brush was used to paint everyone other than Europeans as savage. However, the Indians and Chinese fought back, and showed that both civilizations have a history of science and rationality. It helped that both of them had sympathetic supporters in the West, and both pursued science and technology in earnest. Islamic nations, on the other hand, were busy fighting among themselves, making money selling oil to the West, and buying weapons from them to continue their fights. They never invested in image-building, so they are stuck with the savage label. And the current indiscriminate protests is only adding more power to the brush.
You can use your relativism to argue that both Indians and Chinese bought into the western standards of epistemology, and you may be right to some extent. However, rejecting the Western epistemology wholesale, while depending on the technology churned out by the West for survival, is not going to improve the image of Muslims either. You cannot change your image through anarchy fueled by Western technology. Even in the unlikely scenario of Muslim radicals winning their global war against the West, the remaining folks will still see Muslims as savages. The only way to change the image is to construct a credible alternative to the dominant western narrative. Outrage and destruction is cheap, so they never get anyone respect.
This Nilufar guy is a troll, right? I am certainly going to treat him as such…
I assume people who say things like
are either deranged or are trying to get their favorite conspiracy theory charged up…
Oh, so it’s the span of time that matters, and not the total number. I see. So it’s better for them die slow, agonizing deaths than for them to be vaporized instantly?
So it’s worse that the US, which was at war with Japan and had at least some strategic reason to drop the weapons, ended the war as quickly as possible with a terrifying show of absolute force than for the Japanese to spend nearly a decade raping, pillaging, burning, and murdering China and its citizens?
REALLY?
It’s worse than the deliberate genocide of the Armenians, Tutsi, and Jews? REALLY?
So basically, the length of time is more important than the number of people killed? So it’s worse if I kill ten people in a day than a hundred in a week?
What kind of sick logic is it where time matters more than the number of lives? I DARE you to tell the Chinese that the nuclear bombings of Japan were a worse crime than what the Imperial Japanese military did to Japan. I DARE you to say that to the Koreans. To the Filipinos. Ugh. I SPIT on your logic. It’s an atrocious attempt to try to justify base anti-Americanism for the sake of anti-Americanism. Absolutely disgusting.
Go read “The Rape of Nanking.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanking_Massacre
The Japanese killed 200K to 300K in about two months. You want a race against time? You can have it. But you see, the Japanese spent an ENTIRE decade committing Rape of Nankings. A decade of nothing but wholesale slaughter of human beings and human experimentation.
No. You’re nothing but a petty moral relativist who can’t admit that you phrased something badly, and you want so badly now to be right that you’re willing to throw even a shred of actual decency and honesty out the window. Hell, if you really want to hit the Americans where it hurts, you’d at least go after the deliberate destruction of the Native Americans. But no. An act that actually had some strategic value and may have saved lives in the long run is worse because it killed more in a short span.
Disgusting.
Class dismissed in Swat valley – a must-watch documentary. [link]
Thanks for the link to Prof. Hoodbhoy’s article, Amardeep, that was quite illuminating (if chilling).
Rob, see Vir Sanghvi’s piece for an Indian perspective on Pakistan’s shift towards the Arabian peninsula.
ImageChange–yes, thanks–I read Sanghvi’s piece–pretty hard-hitting!
Sri Sri Ravi Shankar, Deepak Chopra and Ken Wilbur need to give seminar tours in Pakistan. Ken Wilbur specifically is looking for a Muslim scholar to join this
Let’s see if anyone bites. I sure hope so. He’s got well-known and established scholars of Hinduism, Buddhism, Judaism and Christianity participating, it sure would be nice to see a Muslim there as well but Ken says he’s having a hard time finding one willing to participate. It’s time for Islam to get it’s new age groove on like the rest of the world’s religions. It’s all about love, baby.