85 thoughts on “India’s Israel Envy”

1. I agree India is better at the L, D, C than others of the subcontinent, but only parts of India, case in point Gujarat and Orissa. Gujarat is not worth even going into as horrible a travesty that was. It was indefensible what happened in Orissa, the murder, persecution, and horror that a minority had to deal with, with a very slow response by the government. What was even more horrible was how the “blame the victim” (the christians had it coming?) scenario was enacted to confuse the situation, when its obvious a planned scenario was much in play. This echoed what happens frequently in neigboring less enlightened countries so I don’t think the L criteria depends on the region of India you talk about.

2. Wow Vinod, just when I thought this place was too bubble gum to deal with this issue. I take what I said back.

   I find myself agreeing with most of what you said and especially the parallels to End of History. Israel and India bookend a region that seeks to consume them which plays more into the psyche of Israel than India.

3. Perhaps another, less fortunate, overlap between India and Israel is a seeming neglect of ground troops/tactics–as Israel learned in the 2006 war with Hezbollah (though they seemed much improved in Gaza, with few casualties) and is now being raised as a serious concern about the Indian army.

   Perhaps the deployment of some Indian army troops to Afghanistan to help with President Obama’s new strategy there would result in upgraded readiness, plus maybe some tech goodies from “Unkill” [Sam]? 😉

4. I supposed the “D” element is bolstered by banning Arab parties but the point grows only stronger when a free nation’s LDC indicators are defined relative to that of the population they have subjected to economic and political suffocation for 50+ years.

   this argument would be a lot more convincing if you defined how each country fit in particular terms and not comparative terms, unless you were using another LDC nation for the comparison.

   Tharoor hit a low mark with his “cricket” essay and it’s nice to see him regain somewhat ‘spectable ground with this.

   don’t see the utility of your suggestion for the Palestinians. First principles are sanctified only when and if the organs of democracy are functioning/present. Free press, movement, speech and association are preconditions, they simply don’t manifest themselves when prompted by the western observer and the chance that they will is preponderantly affected by Israeli actions.

   Since you have apparently elected a single representative for the Palestinian people, ala the minority in the room when the topic of conversation concerns only that minority’s ethnicity, I suggest you create a desi version. Should make it easier to shuffle off queries regarding sati, arranged marriage, graft, etc.

5. israel committed the most heinous of war crimes. i don’t get how we can watch nearly 40% of women and children in gaza get blown to shreds, and later have dogs in palestine feed off their flesh. the truest of true images of the aftermath were so grotesque, even nbc los angeles have pulled off images (to the pleasure of israelis of course). do not forget to google kaukab al dayah. her picture is one that now been pulled off knbc los angeles’ website. she is the 4 year old beautiful girl who was crushed to death when israelis hit her home and it collapsed. the only thing above the rubble is her face. you will fall to your knees after seeing that. i think diplomacy, sanctions, and some military action may do the job. the brutal, barbaric right-wing israeli agenda here was to wipe out future generations of palestinians, especially hard hot were those bodies able to replicate. bombing kids are no accident when you’re talking about the world’s finest defense. stop believeing the israeli propaganda. they would have otherwise only targeted the tunnels leading to egypt. they were out to wipe out thousands before the police made it to town aka barack. unbelievebly, they got away with genocide. 1,200 humans screaming for help, and the world just watched them die. how cruel are we? may god rest their souls. and as much as people disagree with hamas, we have to recognize and work with them since they did it the democratic way, just like when we brought in bush. yes, they need to knock off the stupid rockets, but more importantly israel needs to pick on someone their own size, not go after their own prisoners (occupation), that itself is an open air guantanamo bay. india is above israel, it would never stoop to this level of inhume actions to defend itself. us needs to knock off the aid money to pakistan which just gets funneled into abroad accounts.

6. Vinod’s “advice to the Palestinians” is precisely back-asswards.

   Tell Israel to stop bombing Palestinian children, give the Palestinian people access to their own land, air, sea, and resources; recognize their legitimately elected government. In other words: ending the illegal, inhumane occupation is the precondition for the development of “LD&C”. Not the other way around. By the way, something tells me if you end the occupation the “ramshackle rockets and suicide bombers” will end as well. Remove the occupation and you remove the means of resistance as well. As with most Israel apologists, this article looks at Palestine as if it existed in a vacuum, and were not still dealing with 60+ years of dispossession, occupation and outright colonialism.

   Israel has far more in common with the British Raj of yesteryear than it does with India: both are colonial powers which pride themselves on the wonderful achievements of their “civilization” while treating their subjects with unchecked disdain and brutality.

7. That should simply read “remove the occupation and you remove the resistance as well.”

8. I think you all are missing the critical nuance here. As an illustrious commenter pointed out on another thread, the nuanced view that Israel is peaceful even when it bombs civilians (everybody remembers Israel’s Gandhian actions in Deir Yassin that triggered the Palestinian’s selfish exodus, I am sure), because it is democratic, and the other side only wants to engage in violence. Similarly as another careful observer elucidated on the MLK post, the Palestinians just solicit victimhood and misery because they hate Israel, and this is really an Arab problem, not an Israeli issue. Why is this nuanced view not obvious to everybody?

9. I recently grabbed the new book – “Hot, Flat and Crowded” by Tom Friedman and not so surprisingly, he comes to the same conclusion as quoted by vinod from Bloomberg’s Oped…Oil – being the root cause for the lack of innovation and economic progression for most of the oil-rich Mideast…in fact there is a graph in the book that traces the systematic fall of L and D with the rise of oil prices, primarily measured by changing world events. Falling oil prices lead to the fall of the Berlin wall and the rising prices leads to Iran wanting to be nuclear (just a snapshot from many…)

   lack of oil and minerals has definitely united the two nations (India-Israel) in a uncanny way but i think this will be the foundation of a long and prosperous relationship that i hope the politicians in both the countries come to realize…

10. And so it begins. Post after post by folks with ‘Sanskritized’ names that demonise the Israeli nation and people while chiding India for the ‘genocide’ in Gujarat and Orissa like that’s some sorta trump card against Indian democracy.

11. Let’s all be honest. Israel did what any country being bombarded with rocket attacks would do to a country that is a vastly inferior power. India cannot afford itself this option, so it will either keep bending over each time the fundoos decide to go killing infidels again or we will be seeing car bombs going off a whole lot more frequently in Pakistani cities do to the reestablishment of Indian funding to some disgruntled Pakistani parties.

12. While the relationship between India and Israel is encouraging, this relationship is due to the advantages that each party offers to the other, not by what they have in common. You could make the case that India and Pakistan have more in common with each other than almost any other country, but that does not make their relationship smooth.

    Israel offers India a number of things – hi-tech with fewer restrictions than from American suppliers, improved training of commandos and other anti-terrorism bodies.

    India offers Israel a number of things – a huge market for its hi-tech goods and weapons. A chance to train alongside another military force that deals with terrorism. A friend in global forums.

    But the differences are stark, albeit manageable. Israel, like Pakistan, was founded on the belief that a specific religious group needed its own country to protect its members. India has been trying for 60 years to manage the role of religion in political/public life. Israel, for all its vaunted military abilities, has become increasingly clueless in how to take advantage of political opportunities.

    After Arafat died, rather than try to work with the PA’s Abbas – they sought to isolate him. Appearing incapable of either standing up to Israel, or cleaning up Fatah’s incredibly dirty political culture, Palestinians voted en masse for Hamas. Then, rather than deal with a hostile gov’t (like every other country in the world has to do), Israel initiated an 18 month blockade on Gaza. To Israel’s surprise, this did not win over the Palestinians. When Israel itself was threatened with a blockade by Arab nations in 1967, Israel launched the Six Day War. Yet, they somehow thought Gazans would be more accommodating to a blockade.

    Israel’s terrorism is due to choosing to hold onto territory, while not giving any say to the people in those regions. India’s terrorism in Kashmir started out the same way – New Delhi has often treated Kashmir more like a colony than a state. But with more and more elections, with greater number of voters turning out – that is becoming less of an excuse. While Hezbollah and Hamas get support from Iran – neither of those groups have bases in Iran the way Lashkar e Toiba and Jaish e Mohammed have in Pakistan.

    Iran is another area where Israel will not get what it wants from India. India has a long relationship with Iran, and due to its energy appetite, will not jettison that relationship to please Israel.

    But, for all many of the criticisms which can be leveled at Israel’s treatment of Palestinians, it’s treatment of its Israeli Arab citizens holds some lessons for India. Yes, in many respects they are second class citizens in Israel – but I don’t believe you have seen a Gujarat style pogrom in Israel. The liklihood of some Israeli politician overseeing the mass murder of several hundred of their fellow citizens is slim to none.

    India’s political shortcomings are well-documented in Sepiamutiny. In Israel’s case – the ease of access to American Jews has stunted Israel’s political maturity. Israeli hardliners can find a ready audience, with their checkbooks ready, in the U.S. Playing upon their guilt for not facing the same challenges that Israelis do, American Jews (especially Boomers) have generally excused Israeli intransigence.

    But one area where Israel could bring some much needed help to India – its beaches. If anyone has seen footage of Israeli beaches on Flickr or Webshots, India would benefit greatly from Israeli ideas on physical fitness.

13. KXB, I think that is a pretty even handed summary of the situation (except for your summary of the Israeli Arab situation: while they haven’t been massacred by elected leaders, they are subject to far too many official and codified indignities on a daily basis). I agree with your point about the beaches too 🙂

14. “India’s terrorism in Kashmir started out the same way – New Delhi has often treated Kashmir more like a colony than a state.”

    ---

    Wow. The Pakjabi intelligentsia never ceases to disappoint. I guess up until the 80’s India was too busy ‘terrorizing’ other ‘colonies’ in their union.

15. Pakistan is China’s Israel.

16. KXB,

    You will like this economist article – Long past time to cease fire

    Israel’s critics may have to ask themselves some tough questions too. Lives cannot be weighed and counted like groceries. But many Jews around the world protest that Israel is being held to a higher standard than the one demanded of many other countries, and to some extent they are right……. Of course, people are entitled to expect a Westernised democracy such as Israel to behave better than Syria, Russia or the violent Islamists of Hamas. But they are not entitled to hold Israel to a standard they do not observe themselves. The killing of civilians is a sadly common occurrence in war. American forces are accused of having killed hundreds of civilians when they recaptured the Iraqi city of Fallujah from Islamist insurgents in 2004. American and European air forces have killed thousands of civilians in air raids in Kosovo, Iraq and Afghanistan. So it has been immensely sad, and grotesquely unfair, to watch protesters in London and Paris accusing Israel of behaving as the Nazis did. Just as Israel deserves no special favours when it comes to the prosecution of war crimes, so it should not be singled out while others go unpunished. That will only deepen the misplaced conviction of too many Israelis that a nation in a sea of enemies must in the end survive mainly by the sword…

17. Pakistan is China’s Israel.

    Do you mean Pakistan:China as (1) Israel:US, or (2) Israel:India or (3) both or (4) something else. I’m guessing (1).

18. You are right, Rob. Option 1.

19. As callous as it might sound, my objection to Israel’s actions are not because when Israel kills Arabs it is more heinous than when Hafez Assad or Saddam Hussein killed thousands of Arabs. It is because Israel’s actions reflect on its patron, the U.S. – where I live. By comparison, the UK’s excesses in Northern Ireland or France’s behavior in Algeria did not affect the U.S., since those two countries were not so dependent upon American diplomatic muscle. Also – Israel’s methods are not working. If you are going to be lambasted by other nations for undertaking an action, at least achieve the goals you set out. While the Gaza operation did not go as badly for Israel as their war with Hezbollah did in 2006 – last I checked, Hamas was still in charge there.

20. Iran is another area where Israel will not get what it wants from India

    I think Israel is a test case for India to conduct its policy on two fronts ( Defense dept and State dept. ) like US dealings with the Muslim world (though it doesn’t have that much clout). Looking at history – US support for Iraq against Iran, Saudi and Pak against Soviets etc. and other cases when one can hardly call them democracies or liberal. The Defense dept. shouldn’t care an iota of human rights wrt geo-political startegy & war and the State dept. should temper Defense depts’s zeal with humanitarian concerns. And one should cry stronger over the other depending on times. This way both aspects can become sticks to further ones interests. It is happening the same now with Obama taking over Bush and as it happened wrt to Afghan war or wrt to China. Oops I also forget to mention Nixon-Shah of Iran-Contra case….

21. I should also add that previous geo-political struggles (post www-2) was easier because it was either Soviets or US. Now all conflicts will become more complicated, multipolar, global as well local. Zakaria’s following parsing of Huffington’s views are also insightful –

    Huntington, Prescient and Principled

    Huntington noticed a troubling trend. Sometimes, American-style progress — more political participation or faster economic growth — actually created more problems than it solved. If a country had more people who were economically, politically and socially active yet lacked effective political institutions, such as political parties, civic organizations or credible courts, the result was greater instability. Think Pakistan….

    Living through change, people have often stuck with their oldest and most durable source of security: religion. That was the most important message of “The Clash of Civilizations.” While others were celebrating the fall of communism and the rise of globalization, Huntington saw that with ideology disappearing as a source of human identity, religion was returning to the fore.

22. 9 · aman said

    I recently grabbed the new book – “Hot, Flat and Crowded” by Tom Friedman and not so surprisingly, he comes to the same conclusion as quoted by vinod from Bloomberg’s Oped…Oil – being the root cause for the lack of innovation and economic progression for most of the oil-rich Mideast…in fact there is a graph in the book that traces the systematic fall of L and D with the rise of oil prices, primarily measured by changing world events. Falling oil prices lead to the fall of the Berlin wall and the rising prices leads to Iran wanting to be nuclear (just a snapshot from many…)

    A read for anyone who thinks that this Friedman guy is worth paying attention to

    http://www.nypress.com/article-19271-flat-n-all-that.html

    “Friedman plots exactly four points on the graph over the course of those 30 years. In 1989, as oil prices are falling, Friedman writes, “Berlin Wall Torn Down.” In 1993, again as oil prices are low, he writes, “Nigeria Privatizes First Oil Field.” 1997, oil prices still low, “Iran Calls for Dialogue of Civilizations.” Then, finally, 2005, a year of high oil prices: “Iran calls for Israel’s destruction.”Take a look for yourself: I looked at this and thought: “Gosh, what a neat trick!” Then I sat down and drew up my own graph, called SIZE OF VALERIE BERTINELLI’S ASS, 1985-2008, vs. HAP- PINESS. It turns out that there is an almost exact correlation! “

23. More on Friedman and the Israel-Gaza war http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2009/01/14/friedman/index.html

24. Israel left Gaza in 2005, giving Palestinians the chance to run their own lives. Despite this, more than 6300 rockets and mortars have been fired into Israel since then. No other country in the world would have exercised the amount of restraint that Israel has shown for the past several years without responding.

25. Israel left Gaza in 2005, giving Palestinians the chance to run their own lives. Despite this, more than 6300 rockets and mortars have been fired into Israel since then. No other country in the world would have exercised the amount of restraint that Israel has shown for the past several years without responding.

    That is only part of the story – Israeli settlers left. But the borders, airspace, and ports all remained firmly under Israeli control, as did Gazan airspace. And, after Hamas won an election that was urged on by the U.S., Israel’s immediate response was to set-up a blockade. Does an ordinary Israeli deserve to wonder if a rocket will come through their window from Gaza? No – but should that same Israeli be surprised that when you essentially lock up 1.8 million people in a patch of land that they will use any means, often terrible means, to break the blockade? Also no.

26. Given that Sashi Tharoor’s paymaster is from the Middle East an anti Indo – Israel piece is hardly surprising (Google Afras Ventures—whose main achievement so far seems to be to give Sashi –Tharoor a steady source of income)

    Frankly I am surprised that Sashi Tharoor was not consigned to the garbage bin after his self -aggrandizing run for the Sec -Gen (and its resultant embarrassment for India)

27. 3 · rob said

    Perhaps another, less fortunate, overlap between India and Israel is a seeming neglect of ground troops/tactics–as Israel learned in the 2006 war with Hezbollah (though they seemed much improved in Gaza, with few casualties) and is now being raised as a serious concern about the Indian army. Perhaps the deployment of some Indian army troops to Afghanistan to help with President Obama’s new strategy there would result in upgraded readiness, plus maybe some tech goodies from “Unkill” [Sam]? 😉

    Rob,

    the reference that you produced (highlighting the army’s lack of preparedness) doesnt seem very reliable imho. Not that I am discounting the report entirely but…

28. Good post Vinod.

    One problem (Ezra Klein of the American Prospect talks about this) with the American Media coverage of the conflict is the patently ridiculous equivocation of Israeli actions with Palestinian intentionality. The media tells us that Palestinians intend to push the Israelis into the sea and all the other horrible intentions of the Palestinians which are somehow worse than the actual actions of Israelis. Palestinians intend on denying the Israelis their right to existence at some point in future when the Palestinians become more powerful than the US/Israel and that is supposed to be a bigger moral outrage than the fact that the Israelis are denying Palestinian statehood by continously expanding settlements. Every Israeli settlement is in fact denying the Palestinian their right to exisntence on that land and that somehow is not as bad as what Palestinians intend to do at some time in future when they get very powerful.

    I think another problem is that the conflict is almost entirely narrated in accordance to Israel’s most recent snapshot of history lens. According to Israelis the bombings on Gaza were in response to Hamas shooting rockets. Thats it. End of story. The Israeli snapshot of history is almost always invariably the most recent one which convenientlty provides a justification for its attack. Of course raising questions as to why Hamas shot rockets or about the economic blockade or anything else is out of bounds and anyone who wants to raise any issue not covered by the most recent snapshot of history is either an apologist for jihad, a naive fool or even an anti-semite.

    I think another problem (Ezra Klein of the American Prospect talks about this) is the false equivocation of Israeli actions versus Palestinian intentionality.

29. 28 · Pagal_Aadmi_for_debauchery said

    with the American Media coverage of the conflict is the patently ridiculous equivocation of Israeli actions with Palestinian intentionality.

    Anybody knows that Hamas vowing for the destruction of the state of Israel in its charter is much more devastating than actual Israeli behavior on settlers, checkpointed walled ghettoes, and suspension of aid even as Palestinians continue to die in inhumane conditions. Why is it so hard for people to understand this critical nuance?

30. 9 · aman said

    Tom Friedman

    c’mon, we all know friedman is very astute ass-toot.

31. both countries have also become surprisingly socio-politically aligned

    yes, except that india is a third-world economy, with no theocratic orientation, where some people unfortunately eat grass or leaves when there’s a famine, where we have a third-class defense infrastructure, and politicians will not bite the bullet because they have to appease votebanks. this india-israel parallel is quite shallow, and the work of self-aggrandizing diplomatics and frothy commentators who have a misplaced sense of what india’s weaknesses are and what it’s priorities should be. sorry to sound like prema; but let’s not make the mistake mr. bachchan made last week.

    I believe even the most die hard voting block of LD&C’ers on the planet – middle America – will grow more empathetic towards your broader plight.

    which bloc of foreign people has benefitted from the empathy of middle-america? palestinians need an effective k-street contingent and the wherewithal to award some defense contracts.

32. and to back my claim that the empathy of middle-america doesn’t translate well into aid and $$$:

    A recent poll by the Program for International Policy Attitudes at the University of Maryland showed that most Americans still imagine that 20 percent of the federal budget goes to foreign aid. In reality, less than 1 percent of the budget is for foreign aid, and only about one-third of that is development assistance. U.S. development aid has declined steadily over the past 15 years. The U.S. now ranks last among the 22 industrialized countries in percentage of national income given away in development aid: less than 0.1 percent. Tiny Denmark contributes ten times as much of its national income as American taxpayers do. Japan has been the largest provider of official development assistance for ten consecutive years [link]

    .

33. BTW – India would be better off looking to Indonesia, another large, developing & multi-ethnic country, as a model. In the early part of this decade, there were serious concerns that Indonesia would be torn apart by terrorism. But, the Indonesian gov’t undertook some serious steps to deal with their problem. They retrained their police and internal security forces to adopt modern methods. Unlike the U.S. – they did not adopt trials out of the public view. By having public trials of terror suspects, Indonesians were able to tell for themselves whether the evidence and cases were worthy.

    But, there is a difference. Indonesia does not have a hostile neighbor which allows its territory to be used by terror groups.

34. Pagal_Aadmi_for_debauchery@28…that was actually quite a persuasive argument against Israel’s supposedly knee-jerk actions. But military actions are mostly reactionary to short-term events in post-ww2 era. Nevertheless I don’t see any strategic reason/necessity for the blockades after the withdrawal from Gaza strip. Sinai peninsula has been given back to Egypt and a peace agreement signed that has kind of endrured since ’79. Israel has withdrawn its army from Lebanon too. West Bank has not been annexed though there is a tricky problem of resettlements and the fencing. Golan Heights is probably the only (Syrian) territory that has been occupied and Israel forces are unlikely to withdraw from there. Otherwise I don’t see any reason why the warring groups should keep fighting Israel and not negotiate a peace treaty similar to Egypt.

35. While nations supposedly come together out of common interests, ideology too plays a part. In India’s case although it recognized Israel, it did not maintain full diplomatic relations for many years till the late ’80s, for reasons that can’t be but ideological. The defence collaboration between India and Israel that began with professional exchanges in the time of Rajiv Gandhi have now been overtaken by the trade in knowhow and military hardware. Professional collaboration through training and joint exercises is all but insignificant. India’s most important – and virtually first – professional military partner is now the US, with whom the Indian armed forces train and exercise on an unprecedented scale. This far exceeds the relationship India has developed with the USSR/Russia in the past, where training was limited to the use and deployment of specific hardware. India’s counter-insurgency doctrine and tactics have evolved from its own experiences and have proven successful time and again, and owe little to foreign militaries. When the Indian Navy’s Marine Commandos were raised >10 years ago the first batch of officers did train with the USN SEALS. Other SF units have been raised and trained with almost no external inputs. India has little to learn tactically or at the level of the battlefield from Israel, as the two countries’ military situation differ vastly. India has a wider range of terrrain to fight on, larger, areas at sea and on land.

    A perception of common features does help in providing continuity through changes in the political dispensation.

36. A sense of shared experiences and perception certainly helps, as in India’s case pragmatism does get elbowed out by ideology every now and then, as it did in 2004 when the left loons supporting the Congress-led alliance wanted to scuttle India-Israel relations almost entirely. India does entice Israel as it is the only place where Jews have never suffered persecution and maintained their identity. While India doesn’t offer the sort of homogenized aseptic tourist experience of a NZ or Australia (in other words it is dirty and crowded) there is enough to see and learn and get lost in for the budget backpacker like not other place can offer. So again Israeli backpackers are welcome, and v. popular in Srinagar, and when these backpackers return to Israel some of them become political leaders, bringing in more complex links, and so on…While Narendra Modi is persona non grata in the US and UK, snooty Scandinavian and Geert Wilders persecuting Netherlands, he has been to Israel, Australia and China. Who woulda’ thunk! As for military hardware, Israel too is subject to a US veto on a case by case basis. Which is why Israel was not permitted to work with China to develop its Phalcon AWACS platform, while the US gave it a go ahead to work with India.

37. as in India’s case pragmatism does get elbowed out by ideology every now and then

    I’ll have to dispute the “every now and then” clause. It is a rare occasion when Indian idealogues pull their heads from their behinds and think practically about safeguarding their interests. Making stands on principle is good and all, but eventually you need to wise up and realize that if nobody else is listening to you or taking you seriously you’re just setting yourself up for a long-term ass whooping.

38. It is not “India”‘s Israel envy – it is India’s elite’s Israel envy. India’s elite couldn’t even predict the anti-incumbent election in 2004 accurately, so I doubt they know what most Indians think about Israel/Palestine (if anything).

    I can’t really respond civilly to the rest of this post because of its tone and off-the-cuff style at a time when people have been and are dying and a lot of people includig me are angry and extremely upset about it, so here is some information that I hope will be of use to someone who reads this.

    IN THIS WAR, as in any modern war, propaganda plays a major role. The disparity between the forces, between the Israeli army – with its airplanes, gunships, drones, warships, artillery and tanks – and the few thousand lightly armed Hamas fighters, is one to a thousand, perhaps one to a million. In the political arena the gap between them is even wider. But in the propaganda war, the gap is almost infinite.

    What is amazing is that so many Western leaders, so many presidents and prime ministers and, I fear, so many editors and journalists, bought the old lie; that Israelis take such great care to avoid civilian casualties. “Israel makes every possible effort to avoid civilian casualties,” yet another Israeli ambassador said only hours before the Gaza massacre. And every president and prime minister who repeated this mendacity as an excuse to avoid a ceasefire has the blood of last night’s butchery on their hands. Had George Bush had the courage to demand an immediate ceasefire 48 hours earlier, those 40 civilians, the old and the women and children, would be alive. What happened was not just shameful. It was a disgrace. Would war crime be too strong a description? For that is what we would call this atrocity if it had been committed by Hamas. So a war crime, I’m afraid, it was. After covering so many mass murders by the armies of the Middle East – by Syrian troops, by Iraqi troops, by Iranian troops, by Israeli troops – I suppose cynicism should be my reaction. But Israel claims it is fighting our war against “international terror”. The Israelis claim they are fighting in Gaza for us, for our Western ideals, for our security, for our safety, by our standards. And so we are also complicit in the savagery now being visited upon Gaza.

    UPDATE: After over 1400 Palestinians have been killed and over 5000 wounded alongside 13 Israelis, Israel and Hamas have agreed a brief cessation of violence and the army withdrawing. We still need to urgently demand a proper, comprehensive and internationally-guaranteed ceasefire which makes sure this terrible violence will not be repeated. Much of Gaza lies in ruins and its people are still blockaded – a brief end to the shooting will not protect civilians or provide any basis for peace.

    Israel’s siege of Gaza began on 5 November, the day after an Israeli attack inside the strip, no doubt designed finally to undermine the truce between Israel and Hamas established last June. Although both sides had violated the agreement before, this incursion was on a different scale. Hamas responded by firing rockets into Israel and the violence has not abated since then. Israel’s siege has two fundamental goals. One is to ensure that the Palestinians there are seen merely as a humanitarian problem, beggars who have no political identity and therefore can have no political claims. The second is to foist Gaza onto Egypt. That is why the Israelis tolerate the hundreds of tunnels between Gaza and Egypt around which an informal but increasingly regulated commercial sector has begun to form. The overwhelming majority of Gazans are impoverished and officially 49.1 per cent are unemployed. In fact the prospect of steady employment is rapidly disappearing for the majority of the population. On 5 November the Israeli government sealed all the ways into and out of Gaza. Food, medicine, fuel, parts for water and sanitation systems, fertiliser, plastic sheeting, phones, paper, glue, shoes and even teacups are no longer getting through in sufficient quantities or at all. According to Oxfam only 137 trucks of food were allowed into Gaza in November. This means that an average of 4.6 trucks per day entered the strip compared to an average of 123 in October this year and 564 in December 2005. The two main food providers in Gaza are the UN Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East (UNRWA) and the World Food Programme (WFP). UNRWA alone feeds approximately 750,000 people in Gaza, and requires 15 trucks of food daily to do so. Between 5 November and 30 November, only 23 trucks arrived, around 6 per cent of the total needed; during the week of 30 November it received 12 trucks, or 11 per cent of what was required. There were three days in November when UNRWA ran out of food, with the result that on each of these days 20,000 people were unable to receive their scheduled supply. According to John Ging, the director of UNRWA in Gaza, most of the people who get food aid are entirely dependent on it. On 18 December UNRWA suspended all food distribution for both emergency and regular programmes because of the blockade.

    Twenty-five things to do to bring peace with justice: 1) First get the facts and then disseminate them. Here are some basic background information http://www.btselem.org/english/Gaza_Strip http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article4933.shtml http://www.mepeace.org/forum/topics/the-true-story-behind-this-war The true story behind this war http://www.unitedforpeace.org/downloads/If%20Gaza%20falls.pdf If Gaza Falls http://electronicintifada.net/v2/article10055.shtml Gaza massacres must spur us to action…

    Vanity Fair has obtained confidential documents, since corroborated by sources in the U.S. and Palestine, which lay bare a covert initiative, approved by Bush and implemented by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Deputy National Security Adviser Elliott Abrams, to provoke a Palestinian civil war. The plan was for forces led by Dahlan, and armed with new weapons supplied at America’s behest, to give Fatah the muscle it needed to remove the democratically elected Hamas-led government from power. (The State Department declined to comment.) But the secret plan backfired, resulting in a further setback for American foreign policy under Bush. Instead of driving its enemies out of power, the U.S.-backed Fatah fighters inadvertently provoked Hamas to seize total control of Gaza.

    I’ll leave it to someone else to find the ample documentation for how Israel backed Hamas in the 1970s to cause problems for the P.L.O.

39. really great post, thanks

40. Dr. A, What % of Muslims killed in political violence since, say, 1950, have been killed by the Israelis or “Modi”? If it’s well under 1% (as it is), what does your harping on that less than 1%, compared to the 99+%, say? It cert. does not seem to certify you as a humanitarian.

41. 40 · rob said

    If it’s well under 1% (as it is), what does your harping on that less than 1%, compared to the 99+%, say?

    well, rob, if the killing is unjustified (and that is the point being debated here), then it becomes a violation of a right. we take rights to be inviolable (hence, ‘rights’ :)), so i think that numbers are beside the point. you could reverse the argument to: what % of christians and hindus and jews are killed in religious violence? if it’s less than 1%, does that make it justified? i think not.

42. Port, Fair points, but (1) I didn’t say it’s justified and (2) yes, one shouldn’t (of course) tally right-violations in terms of numbers, that’s an apples to oranges comparison, but (3) I was trying to psychologize the outsized focus on a small subset of violations–it seems to me to be a ‘tell’ about what’s really up. Where is the outrage over the Hama massacre or the dead in the recent Muslim-on-Muslim Algerian civil war, etc., etc. ad nauseum (e.g., political slaughter in post-revolution Iran, Sudan, Yemen. . . .)? The silence makes me cynical indeed. (Oh, and, BTW, your comparison on a recent post of US v. Japan foreign aid is (IMHO) too statist, US has far more remittances to the developing world, thanks to much more liberal migration rules (haha, and non-rules)). 🙂

43. 42 · rob said

    (IMHO) too statist, US has far more remittances to the developing world, thanks to much more liberal migration rules (haha, and non-rules)). 🙂

    well, i was just trying to illustrate that the support of middle america doesn’t do much for foreign citizens in practical terms. moreover, america’s perception of itself as bailer-out of the world is completely misplaced. i don’t know how people can think that 20% of the countr’s budget goes to foreign aid. 20%??! really? even personal tithing is generally 10% of income 🙂 the US remittances and immigration policy are based on personal interest. japan doesn’t need any technologically qualified people to come in. they’re not having a crisis in terms of numbers of advanced science graduates. as soon as america’s need vanishes, migration rules change. we’ve seen that historically, we’ll see it again. development oriented foreign aid (which japan and scandanavia) give is a tad less self-interested, isn’t it? compare this with US and china aid policy, which is more strategic in character.

    also, i know you’re not saying that the killings are justified: merely, that we have a debate. some people feel that israel’s actions in gaza are justified; others believe in a more qualified support of israel; some don’t support the violence and blockade at all.

    Where is the outrage over the Hama massacre or the dead in the recent Muslim-on-Muslim Algerian civil war, etc., etc. ad nauseum (e.g., political slaughter in post-revolution Iran, Sudan, Yemen. . . .)? The silence makes me cynical indeed.

    i think people find the US to be more complicit in the i-p situation (whether that perception is accurate or not, is up for debate too). this is an example of an inter-state problem (granted, palestine is a notional state :)), where america is thought to have a stake and prior involvement. the other cases are internal matters, intra-state activities, where america is thought to have little stake and no complicity (at least as far as public perception is concerned).

44. i think people find the US to be more complicit in the i-p situation

    Well, obv. US is pro-Israel, but keep in mind that the legitimacy of the sale of arms by non-belligerents to belligerents is an accepted principle of International Law (this suggests why the invocation, simpliciter, of US arms sales during the Iran-Iraq war isn’t so obviously indicative of US culpability). Of course, I’m not naive enough to think that “International Law” is “neutral”–obv. it’s been constructed to favor states, over, e.g., non-state actors (hey, if i were Hamas, I wouldn’t come out wearing uniforms to fight the IDF in the open, either–even the Hamas guys in Gaza were objecting to the commands from Hamas HQ in Damascus to “fight harder”–they’re not so suicidal either, when push comes to shove, which is why they turtled up–but that’s why I think the IDF attack may have a deterrent effect, kind of like ’06 seems to have quieted down Hezbollah). That said, it’s a bit perverse when the pro-Hamas side starts invoking “International Law” to criticize Israeli actions–Hamas is totally blowing it off themselves. Goose, gander, etc. . . .

45. US remittances and immigration policy are based on personal interest.

    Gotta disagree here. US immigration policy is made up of a variety of factors, self interest is one, but it has a very high dose of idealism too (unfortunately this is one of the reasons the policy is so messed up from the POV of a legal alien).

    The middle east policy is a good example of self-interest – and everyone knows how ugly it is (I’m guessing most folks here have either lived there or have had friends who have lived there, so I do not need to go into the details.)

    The US policy is horribly messed up, but the attitude towards immigrants / temporary aliens is far more welcoming compared most other countries.

    japan doesn’t need any technologically qualified people to come in. they’re not having a crisis in terms of numbers of advanced science graduates. as soon as america’s need vanishes, migration rules change.

    America does not have a crisis of numbers. If it did American society would gravitate towards science and technology and provide far less rewards towards for those who follow soft subjects. I do not want to derail this thread, but a reading a couple of issues of the IEEE -USA newsletter would give a far more nuanced perspective than just the one side of the arguement that everyone’s heard about.

46. America does not have a crisis of numbers [in science]. If it did American society would gravitate towards science and technology and provide far less rewards towards for those who follow soft subjects

    There’s enormous insight in that comment. Every time I read “Science” I want to throw up a little–their constant invocation of a “science-gap” in the US blatantly ignores the facts on the ground–namely, the US takes in a huge # of well-trained scientists, paying them relatively little (compared to US wages for the highly-educated, mind you, not to world norms–the latter is why the US is able to attract the scientists), and thus does a huge amount of good science. Where’s the gap? It’s a feeder system that’s working fine. Americans are not avoiding science b/c they’re dumb, but b/c the $$ rewards in, e.g., medicine and finance are higher. The “Science” magazine writers remain happily ignorant of this fact.

47. 46 · rob said

    Americans are not avoiding science b/c they’re dumb, but b/c the $$ rewards in, e.g., medicine and finance are higher

    yeah, but medicine and finance are not where the (exponential) value-add is happening. these professions (and the acceleration of economic growth more generally) are predicated on innovations, and that innovation happens in the lab, usually by PhDs (the myth is that it is happening in the private sector; actually, much of the best basic science is federally funded). on the other hand, the rate of return (for an individual) is probably higher for medical and finance professionals. the feeder system depends in immigration quite a bit (see bolded part in quote below). what would be awesome is stats on what %age of science doctorates accrue to children of immigrants. i assume (based on anecdotal data :)), it’s quite high.

    Meanwhile, the United States has been graduating fewer native-born scientists and engineers than it needs for several decades, and compensating by attracting foreign scientists and students. (As Princeton attracted Einstein himself in 1930.) The National Science Foundation says in 2003, a fifth of all science and engineering graduates working in the United States (and over a third of doctorate holders) were immigrants. Some examples: 57 percent of PhDs in computer science and electrical engineering; 52 percent of PhDs in mechanical and chemical engineering; 37 percent in chemistry and biology; 43 percent in mathematics; 40 percent in physics and astronomy. Many are former students at American universities, as about three-quarters of foreign science students hope for careers in the United States after graduation. But tougher student visa policies cut foreign-student enrollment in the 2003-2004 academic year, and did so again in 2004-2005. NSF says new science and engineering enrollment fell over 10 percent in these two years, with the sharpest drops in new computer science and engineering enrollment [link]

    interestingly, this article says that israel is the highest spender on scientific research in the world (5.1% GDP). another huge difference wrt india!

    The US policy is horribly messed up, but the attitude towards immigrants / temporary aliens is far more welcoming compared most other countries.

    granted; absolutely agree with you but it is very different for non-educated immigrants than educated ones.

    oh, and today Muammar Qaddafi elaborates on what israel and palestine should do 🙂 his op-ed in the times is about a one-state solution.

48. 45 · DizzyDesi said

    but it has a very high dose of idealism too (unfortunately this is one of the reasons the policy is so messed up from the POV of a legal alien).

    i’m genuinely curious about this: what provision of the US immigration policy (other than asylum) do you (or more generally) take to be idealistic?

49. today Muammar Qaddafi elaborates on

    I thought you considered political legitimacy important? So why would we care what this mafiosi has to say??
    I’m actually serious.

50. what provision of the US immigration policy (other than asylum) do you (or more generally) take to be idealistic?

    chain-migration