Former UN USG Shashi Tharoor recently published a provocative piece titled “India’s Israel Envy” exploring the seemingly unlikely sympathy for Israel from India –
As Israeli planes and tanks exact a heavy toll on Gaza, India’s leaders and strategic thinkers have been watching with an unusual degree of interest – and some empathy.
Shashi Tharoor
India’s government has, no surprise, joined the rest of the world in calling for an end to the military action, but its criticism of Israel has been muted…
Both countries face terrorists launching attacks from neighboring, ostensibly sovereign territory and both suspect that authorities lend different shades of support to the behavior. With Israel biting the bullet and invading Gaza to (hopefully) curtail the rocket downpour, India might be tempted to do something similar to Pakistan. However, Tharoor argues, India has far more effective international leverage to bring down upon its misbehaving neighbor than the Israeli’s do and hence could / should make use of that avenue first.
Perhaps due to his UN heritage, I think Tharoor overly focuses on geopolitics as the source of the “empathy” – e.g. both India and Israel are in similar transnational situations. I’ve done some work in Israel over the years and have personally noted a far more broadbased alignment between Israel and India. One response to Tharoor tracks this shift over the last 50 yrs-
Jan. 15 (Bloomberg) — Israel hasn’t won much praise for invading the Gaza Strip. This unpopularity abides even though Israel is bombing Gaza to stop Qassam rockets from hitting its own towns. Still, Israel has at least some supporters in what might seem an unlikely place: India. Not official support, mind you.…Still, a growing mutual admiration between India and Israel is showing up at levels both commonplace and lofty…This Israel-India link is a change. Born at the same time, the two nations at first stood out for their differences…Over the next decades, a shift commenced. India discerned that it had little to gain by keeping Israel at a distance, since Arab nations would surely back Pakistan over India regardless of the latter’s policy on Jerusalem.
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p>My assertion is that beyond the strategic relationship to Islamic states, both countries have also become surprisingly socio-politically aligned internally and thus the “envy” runs far deeper than the current situation.
How so?
One of my favorite political science books of all time remains Francis Fukuyama‘s End of History. While many meaty chunks of the book are routinely criticized, other parts are nevertheless quite prescriptive. In particular, Fukuyama does a great job of crisply enumerating the 3 factors that together define the (arguably) best socio-political model “History” has come up with so far. Its 3 pillars are –
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Liberalism — In the “Classical Liberal” or “Liberty” sense — e.g. what “inalienable rights” do you have that a government or majority of voters can’t take away. How “safe” are ethnic / religious / political minorities? How much “due process” is afforded the average citizen? These rights are both formal in the legal sense (for ex., cops & courts defending Free Speech) and informal in a cultural sense (do your neighbors try to kill you for heresy?).
Francis Fukuyama
- Democracy — Does a government get its legitimacy because it’s the product of popular vote or does it instead claim legitimacy due to heredity (monarchy), religion (theocracy) or simple, brute military power? Is power transferred peacefully between parties with a monopoly on force maintained by the government? Are both the winners and losers gracious after the election? Are public servants ranging from the lowly post office up to the Prime Minister generally honest & trying to push the country forward or they trying to make a quick buck while they’ve got the reigns of power?
- Capitalism – Is the primary source of wealth the potent combo of market capitalism + technology? Or is it allocated via the organs of political power? Is Horatio Alger a naïve, misleading myth or an inspirational, “pull yourself up” parable?
Now I’ll be the first to acknowledge that there’s a lot of criticism (particularly from the Post Modern left) of these 3 ideals; certainly even the folks who profess them often operationally fall far short of ’em…. But as with many messy situations, the questions here are relative rather than absolute. And relatively speaking, on all 3 of these fronts – L, D & C – India and Israel are the leading lights in their respective neighborhoods –
- Liberalism – for all the criticism of Israel, an openly practicing Shia Muslim is likely less safe in Hamas-ruled Gaza than a Muslim of any stripe in either Israel or India. And an openly gay person in Gaza? Fuggedaboutit. Israel’s home grown, “not in my name” liberal newspapers routinely criticize their government’s military excursion into Gaza while one suspects that the life of a Qassam-criticizing, “not in my name” newspaper in Gaza would be relatively nasty, brutish, and short. As bad as it might be to be a Palestinian in Israeli custody, the reverse is almost certainly worse. While Liberalism in India still has a way to go by Western standards, even the harshest critics would concede that India is a relative oasis of “live & let live” liberalism on the subcontinent.
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Democracy – both Israel and India are active Democracies marked by a portfolio of relatively well organized political parties, smooth power transition, and effective government control of the instruments of force (I can’t emphasize the word “relatively” enough
India-Israel Bhai Bhai!?!?
). By contrast, reverb from the last real election(s) in Gaza / West Bank can still be felt in the low grade civil war between Hamas and Fatah with the Hamas Militia maintaining an entirely separate chain of command from the Palestinian National Authority. With no monopoly of force by the Palestinian government, any 3rd party negotiations intrinsically fail. On the governance & corruption front, one egregious example is that Arafat’s leadership of the Palestinian Authority probably netted him $1B – a figure that would likely make even the most corrupt Indian politician blush, particularly when you adjust for the relative size/wealth of Palestine vs. India.
- Capitalism – If there’s any one place where Israel and India have most dramatically converged, it’s in the effective implementation of, and forward-looking faith in modern, sci/tech-charged capitalism. In Silicon Valley, emigres from both countries routinely punch way above their weight. Israel’s $200B GDP / $28K per person is nearly 10x neighboring Jordan’s and 4x Egypt’s (interestingly, US Aid to Israel for 2007 was $2B not far from the $1.7B given to Egypt
). A Bloomberg OpEd notes –
India isn’t especially rich in oil and minerals; Israel is a non-oil nation in a decidedly oily region. To grow, both countries therefore have had to become more entrepreneurial, to generate non- commodity wealth — in short, to innovate.
This example is particularly telling – for India Free Trade is becoming an unalloyed good while in Pakistan, petty political points still reign more important.
In Israel in the 1980s and 1990s, newly arrived Soviet Jews led the transition from the kibbutz and factory to high-tech ventures. With the end of the old bureaucratic system known as “license raj,” India, too, placed new faith in tech and services.
Prob not for a while…
Led by Prime Minister Singh — at that time finance minister — India began to invent and create. Innovating Israel and innovating India were similar in a way that agricultural Israel and agricultural India had not been.
In a phone interview this week, Tharoor recalled that India became so comfortable with its trading profile that it unilaterally granted most-favored-nation status to Pakistan. Pakistan didn’t reciprocate, creating “the only instance of a non-reciprocal free trade agreement one can think of,” Tharoor says.
It’s important to emphasize the “socio-” part of Fukuyama’s “socio-political model”. As Tocqueville famously observed, ultimately, “the people get the government they deserve”. Despite being a terrorist organization, Hamas was elected to power so clearly, there’s more to the puzzle than a one-time democratic vote. “L, D, & C” is also about what a people and culture embrace in a broad way beyond just the government. It’s one thing to ensure a minority’s right to Free Speech at arms length, it’s another to work shoulder-to-shoulder engaged in productive commerce – something that’s quite emphatically a work-in-progress in LD&C nations world-wide. Thankfully, however, these 3 ideals *are* currently weaving their way through Indian society and thus, I argue, empathy with Israel becomes more and more natural.
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A Path For The Future? |
49 · rob said
yeah, i thought it was really funny (hence, the smiley). muammar the elderly statesman. the peace-loving sufi general. if you read the article, it starts out with an emotional (not maudlin however) intro about the parallels b/w israelis and palestinians; it’s full of empathy, and reiterates how everyday human social and economic ties can overcome animosity and hostility (how incongruent with qaddafi’s own good works!). nonetheless, his point about the impossibility of israeli security in a 2-state configuration is interesting. that’s one big reason he gives to suggest a one-state solution would be better for israel.
not sure where you get this from, but this is a very persistent myth. development oriented aid is usually more expensive for the recipient country than most loans. strategic aid is typically more beneficial from a purely economic point of view.
japan runs foreign policy by means of economic aid as a substitute for military power, so to say it is less self-interested is not exactly right. more importantly, development aid is almost always linked with purchases in the donor country which stifles local economies. with japan especially, it has been a way of obtaining market share.
countries with a reasonable amount of development eschew this sort of aid for precisely this reason—it was a big reason india refused tsunami aid from governments while allowing funds that relied on local purchases and private charities to continue to operate.
besides the biggest obstacle to removing poverty is agricultural subsidies—which, in most countries, is several times the amount of aid doled out.
not that there is anything wrong with countries that give development aid–they are watching out for themselves. it is the recipient nations that are either in such desperate straits that they are helpless, or plain corrupt that the administration looks more at their kickbacks rather than anything else. or ideologically inclined to prefer aid to industrial loans—lot of the left consider the political-industrial complex to be a bigger evil. i do not agree with the aid over development view, but it is at least the right strategy for the wrong enemy. altruism, i do not agree with.
also, there is a teeny tiny fraction of development aid which is real. but this is imo pretty small, last i checked, it is overshadowed by any charity you can remember at the tip of your tongue.
52 · bytewords said
yes, this is a problem that USAID (especially) has been criticized for. when i say strategic, i’m talking about aid with an agenda: either defense reciprocity or helping donors’ private sector firms get market share/contracts/dibs on resources, or religious (e.g. wrt condoms/sex-education in Africa). i agree with the point you make abt contracts and the point about agricultural subsidies. moreover, i’m not supporting aid over self-directed govt; only talking about the fact that americans perceive that they give a lot more aid than they actually do (@ 31, 32). yes, aid not be altruistic. but it could be self-interested toward better impulses. eg funding secular education in the world might lead to better opportunities for those who may otherwise be participating in crime/piracy/terror; conservation activity can help local economy and also research interests of the donor; well-conceived and well-monitored environmental projects can offest donor’s global arming activity; besides investing in developing countries can be a different kind of aid with good ror. god knows that there is place for a lot of innovative activity in coming up with good mechanisms for disbursing aid. [but this all OT, and unrelated to my main point about middle-american sympathies :)]
50 · rob said
true, i’ve always wondered about the rationale here. i want to read more about the history of how and why this was allowed.
54 · portmanteau said
Chain migration is an unintended consequence. Family sponsorship was introduced to help people stay together, and also has to do with that thing that all politicians talk about – “families”!
Doc Amo – there’s nothing (apart from your self-righteousness) that suggests that India’s Israel policy is driven by its elite. The crowds in India – if you consider them an expression of popular opinion – that gather to denounce Israel/Imperialism/Zionism etc., are trucked in by the Commies and any other political party that is trying to curry favor with the imaginary Muslim votebank, in the mischievously mistaken belief that Muslims in India are more concerned about these controversies than their bread and butter, or that the Muslim Indian believes that India must in no way work with Israel. Foreign policy is a non-issue with the Indian electorate unless it means a compromise with their dignity, life and liberty. In fact it is the elite of India that get indignant and sanctimonious over diplomatic relations with Israel, not the people. The people of India know better than to be swayed by narrow ethnic considerations. Right now with the LTTE being exterminated in Sri Lanka, the Tamizh chauvinist politicians are finding it impossible to whip the people of the state into a frenzy. No Tamizh in TN is ever going to forgive the LTTE for killing one of their own – Rajiv Gandhi.
55 · jyotsana said
unintended? it’s quite forseeable, no? yes, i understand that it’s about keeping families together, but i was curious about the legislative history of the provision(s), and the rhetoric that may/may not have accompanied it.
44 · rob said
we should distinguish culpability from complicity, though. it’s an important distinction — one that i’d love to talk about, but i most get off sepia and work on my applications 🙂
40 · rob said
3.47%
I looked it up in my gut-chakra.
55 · jyotsana said
1.”Doc Amo – there’s nothing (apart from your self-righteousness) that suggests that India’s Israel policy is driven by its elite.”
2.”The crowds in India – if you consider them an expression of popular opinion – that gather to denounce Israel/Imperialism/Zionism etc., are trucked in by the Commies and any other political party that is trying to curry favor with the imaginary Muslim votebank, in the mischievously mistaken belief that Muslims in India are more concerned about these controversies than their bread and butter, or that the Muslim Indian believes that India must in no way work with Israel.”
3.”Foreign policy is a non-issue with the Indian electorate unless it means a compromise with their dignity, life and liberty.”
4.”In fact it is the elite of India that get indignant and sanctimonious over diplomatic relations with Israel, not the people.”
What is amazing is that these sentences were sequential!
🙂
my ruling on the field is that dr a saved face on a technicality in his battle against rob but (i must grudgedly admit) managed to KO jyotsana.
The following statements are just my opinions.
Israel is not a well known country in India. I doubt if majority of the Indians know that there exists a religion called Judaism and followers are called Jews. Muslims and Hindutvadis would probably know about Jews, but I doubt Israel gets in the radar screen for many Indians.
Having said that, I think it is better that India forges closer military ties with Israel while mouthing just statements in support of Palestine. It is not that by supporting Palestine against Israel (which it has done for the initial 40+ years), India got/ will get any support from the Muslim countries in international fora against Pakistan. Self interest should come before any thing else.
59 · Dr Amonymous said
What’s not amazing is that you still don’t get it!
India has reserved some of its harshest statements and diplomatic actions for Israel, way beyond anything that it has had to say about Pakistan. In the ’50s Krishna Menon, then foreign minister, suggested that it would be a good idea to dump Israelis into the Mediterranean and clear out the land, if not for that it would pollute the seas. Until recently, since the restoration of full military ties, India has never once condemned any act of terrorism inflicted upon Israel or Israelis. The lowest depth was plumbed when India joined a gaggle of despotic regimes and Islamic theocracies in the UN to condemn the Israeli organized rescue of its citizens at Entebbe. As always India decided to speak up for a criminally insane thug like Idi Amin who had booted out 1000s of PIOs rather than commend the action of a Israel that went out on a limb to rescue its citizens. Worse still the feature film on the incident, “90 minutes at Entebbe” as well as the book were never permitted an official release in India. Contrast Israle with the thuggish theocracy of Saudi Arabia, where the religious police, not so long ago, drove back schoolgirls fleeing a fire in the building, since the police determined that the girls whose clothes were on fire, were immodestly dressed!
Contrast Israle with the thuggish theocracy of Saudi Arabia, where the religious police, not so long ago, drove back schoolgirls fleeing a fire in the building, since the police determined that the girls whose clothes were on fire, were immodestly dressed!
Well, The current UPA government invited Saudi Prince as a guest of honor in the Republic day parade a few years back while taking care not to invite any Israeli leaders / sending top leaders to visit Israel. It is at least better that because of the threat from Pakistan, the UPA government allows military deals. But I’m not sure if the left gets to form a major role in the next government, they would scrap the military deals with Israel too. They are already talking about scrapping all relations with Israel.
It is funny that just a few months back some part of official Pakistan organised a bloody terrorist attack in a major city in India and I have not heard any single left leader advocating similar measures against Pakistan. Ofcourse, Left I think is heavily dependent (or atleast it thinks so) on Muslim votes, the two major states that they have any kind of say, Kerala and West bengal have more than 25% Muslims. That’s why you see the Left gvernment in Kerala giving awards to M.F.Hussain while the Left government in Bengal chasing Taslima Nasreen out. 🙂
I think the easier explanation is that the Saudis have a big say in OPEC and they are the source of lots and lots of remittances to India. They also fund some outfits that radicalize India’s Muslim youth and fund Pakistani terrorists, but that’s neither here nor there.
Enough with the Sanskrit-normativity! 😉
60 · Manju said
yes, yoo are correct in thinking that ‘rights’ are a technicality, manju; but starting the 20th we don’t say that out loud. (rob: i got what you said; this is comment is for manju only).
how depressing; facts like these and the taliban control of swat make me feel so f-ing helpless. this year my extra money, whatever i have, is going to some clean energy research fund/project. i’m tired of this hypocisy wrt saudi arabia (and thus, wealthy wahabbis) because of their bloody oil.
Firstly, I appreciate that you put some nuance into your description of how the Pakistani state may or may not have been involved by saying “some part of official Pakistan.” Sincerely, thank you – it’s a contribution to the conversation.
Secondly, not for the purpose of defendinng the Indian official left, for which I don’t have particular fondness, but simply for the argument: the situations are incomparable. Gaza is an internal colony of Israel – it was navally blockaded, its borders were completely controlled, it had a 50% or more unemployment rate, it had limited access to electricity, hospitals, even bread (see the Sara Roy article linked above)- and that’s before the violence and invasion that started in December. I can’t really imagine what it is like now. So a better analogy would be Telengana or the Bangladesh independence-related genocide.
And obviously this follows the broader context of decades of the Israeli state’s superior military power to the Palestinians, Israeli state-society treating its Arab citizens (as well as non-European descent Jews) and below them Palestinians as second or third class or non-citizens, with accompanying abuses, often massive, the Israeli state acting in violation of international legal norms repeatedly, and of course sowing strife among the Palestinians by promoting Hamas to destabilize the secular PLFP and PLO in the 1970s, more recently promoting Abbas and encouraging a civil war among Palestinians to the detrimment of Hamas. Presumably, if Hamas is destroyed and Al Qaeda or someone similar manages to establish a base there, we will see whoever is their counterpart getting funding.
That’s more or less a historical approach to this issue – it’s not the entirety of the story by any stretch (for example, I have left out the role of British imperialism in promoting communal territorial affiliations) and there are obvious things that one might object to in how the Palestinian elites have responded to various issues, but I think it’s important, especially since we’re outsiders, to take the above into accout – especially with the brainwashign the AMerican media has traditionally done on this issue.
Amonymous,
1.Its Telangana, not Telengana.
2.Telangana as an analogy to Gaza? Can you please pass the chillum (you are smoking) to the left? Or if possible, please enlighten me (using short sentences, if that is not too much to ask, Sir).
3.Bangladesh genocide..
I appreciate that you put some nuance into your description (of how there were two genocides in BD 1.By W.Pakistani forces against East Pakistanis and 2.By Bangladeshi Muslim fundamentalists against the Hindu minorties) by saying “Bangladesh indepence-related genocide.” Sincerely, thank you – it is a refreshing departure from you, and a contribution to the conversation.
In the current context, I find Ponniyin Selvan’s remarks quite on the mark.Israel is an unknown entity for vast masses of Indians.Most common people get to know/hear about Israel when the local Muslim community stages a protest (I donno who organizes or funds these protests, but they do happen, and the Muslim brothers who participate in them generally have no clue what Israel has done; none of them have ever seen a Jew, and this includes even the ones shuttling between the Gulf and Indian small towns and villages).
Is India envious of Israel?
Definitely, a section of India (urban, watching CNN/BBC/NDTV, reading mainstream english newspapers)get to choose a perception that (a) Israel is dealing with Hamas the right way and India should emulate Israel w.r.t. Paksitan OR (b) Israel being vilified as the villain is somewhat similar to India being vilified in case of Kashmir OR (c) Israel is committing war crimes, and India should condemn these acts to show solidarity with OIC.
There is some amount of envy in case of (a).There is certainly some empathy for people in category (b).But a good number of people subscribe to (c) view also. So, its a mixed bag out there.
All 3 categories (a, b and c) put together are miniscule compared to the overwhelming majority of Indians who are not only ignorant of Israel, but also think of ‘Gulf’as one big country, and have never heard the word ‘Palestine’.The name Arafat might ring a bell in some middle aged people, but last year when I said ‘Arafat’, my young cousin mistook him for a cricketer.
But this large mass of innocent people read their vernacular newspapers and watch their local language channels (mostly film-based content), and believe that Pakistan is sending suicide attackers to various cities of India for terror acts.All our nuances of langauge are pretty pointless with them.I would advice Hamas to make a bollywood masala movie (then dub into local languages) on this issue, if they wish to increase brand recall among the South Asian billions.
Have a great day!
Great discussion. Thanks for your posts Dr. Anonymous and Jyotsana.
Some of the posters earlier in the thread seem to have remarked along the lines of, “They didn’t march for Mumbai, why should we march for Palestinie.” Just thought I’d point out that there were several events in around Columbia (where I go to school) and NY at large where peace and candle light vigils were held in memory of 26/11. And I know of such peace vigils elsewhere. That said, the analogy isn’t also very apt. To compare a 50-year old crisis involving an occupying power and a community under apartheid – that most recently involved a full-scale invasion by one of the most powerful militaries in the world over a sustained duration – to the heinous terrorist attacks in South Bombay doesn’t quite work. Of course I can expand, but I am assuming commenters were being knee-jerk when they analogized. I probably didn’t need to point this out, but oh well.
Here’s one event btw I personally helped organize after the Mumbai attacks: http://www.facebook.com/home.php?#/event.php?eid=47132804531&ref=share
Diversity Lottery. Citizenship by birth in the US Provisions for allowing prolonged stays due to medical conditions,provisions for abused spouses/children etc Religious Visas for all religions Tax treaties that are being refined Dependant visa’s that are less resticted (the recent L2’s ability to work legally comes to mind) Support for illegal immigrants — Clinton’s naturalizations of illegal immigrants who had been here for a while (the resoning at the time was they had paid their dues to society and deserved a chance to be here for ever) — INS actually provides customer service for them (My pet peeve — INS has geared itself up so much to provide services that their quality of service for legal immigrants has gone down the tubes for legal aliens over the last 10 years — you could get a human on the line earlier to clarify issues/ sort out probems, today you cannot. I am only hoping that the option on the phone to select for “undocumented” immigrants triggers aan automatic ). –Could go on in this but it illegal immigrations is a huge topic in itself. I’ll just say that the sentiment that everyone in the US came in as an immigrant and the newer ones deserve a break, is one that has a prominent voice in the immigration debates.
US society is far more accepting of immigrants than most other places. Most friends and family who have lived in other countries (in europe/in middle east/ Canada/ Japan, etc) state how much accepting US society is of immigrants and how they are able to fit in (even in TN /SC/etc)
Please give my regards to President Uribe next time you see him.
I think Babur and Tamerlane’s “full scale invasion[s]” occurred slightly more than 50 years ago. . . .
Kumar,
Interesting you should say this about the general lack of knowledge about the Jews of India. Diversity in India, uniquely, is a very local thing. Every geographical unit you can devise differs in its diversity from another geographical unit. This is very difficult to understand for the simple and simplistic diversity/multicultural ideal that is bandied about in Europe and the Americas. Of course not all places have the same communal composition. I have spent most of my life in India in Madras and have lived in Bombay, Bangalore, Calcutta, Delhi, and Assam. To this day my experience of Christians, Muslims, Sikhs, Jains, and Parsis is primarily through my conversations in Tamil, in my years in Madras. In Bombay it took me a few years before I got to know that the Jacob or Sarah I took for granted to be Malayali Christians, were both Jewish! In Bombay, to this day, there are still many Jews who live in Masjid Bunder, which runs along Mohammed Ali Road, Dongri, Nal Bazaar, all supposedly Muslim majority neighbourhoods! So it is not that Indians do not know about Jews, they do, but will not be bullied into buying into buying into mischievously created international fault lines.
So for the Muslim Indian, the butchers who ran amok at Nariman House are killers first and last, and to hell with what is happening in Palestine. What kind of a state is Israel? Does it allow its people to go about their secular and sacred affairs without hinderance? Does it have clean neighbourhoods, affordable healthcare, education, and food for all? So it does, then why the heck are these nuts blowing themselves up in school buses and killing babies? If the Muslim Indian rejects any cause for grievance in the Kashmir Valley, you should not be surprised to see them keep clear of the conflict in Gaza.
To get an idea of how the Indian mohalla really works when it works well, please follow this link to an article about Vijay Surve, shakha pramukh of Colaba, of the “dreaded” Shiv Sena. http://specials.rediff.com/news/2009/jan/07slide1-a-account-from-nariman-house.htm
68 · Kumar said
Thanks.
Mass-murder by the state.
I agree with much of what you said about the divide between the elite and the rest of India. At some point, we should start talking about how “the rest” is not uniform. There’s been a ton of writing on this that talks about “intnermediate classes” or other terms – some percent (10%? 20%? 30%?) who are nont at the very top but are a class above the verey bottom. Basically people who are the equivalent of an actual middle class (think your small shop owner or low-salaried office clerk) rather than Thomas Friedman’s “Indian Middle Class”
2. Secondly, not for the purpose of defendinng the Indian official left, for which I don’t have particular fondness, but simply for the argument: the situations are incomparable.
Thats right. Mumbai attacks have direct bearing on India’s relations with Pakistan rather than some country attacking some other country’s citizens. I would expect a political party operating in India to take India’s concerns other than worrying too much about rest of the world. There are plenty of countries that oppress its minorities (say Malaysia, Sri lanka, Saudi Arabia, etc..) with which India has excellent relations. At best you can add Israel to the list. I was pointing out the hypocrisy of the left parties for their vote bank approach in regards to “Muslim issues”. It is good that you are not defending the left parties.
Their primmary hypocrisy is not on ‘Muslim’ issues, but on ‘left’ issues like poverty, caste, etc., despite some of their accomplishments (moreso in Kerala than in West Bengal). I’m inclined to paraphrase Gandhi on Western Civilization when discussing the ideologically self-proclaimed CPI(M).
But in either case, I would expect a person to approach any political party or social movement with an understanding of what it is – not what we would like it to be. That doesn’t mean they’re all the same, but it does mean that you don’t sit around and mimic the party line, whether you’re Hindutva or Marxist, unless there’s a damn good reason to do so.
The exact nature of any involement of any part of the Pakistani state in the Mumbai attacks needs to be thoroughly investigated by 3rd party sources and established prior to any implications or assumptions about what it is. IF there is information that emerges THEN that could inform the policy response. But it can’t be assumed, and it has been, despite that all we have to go on are unsubstantiated claims by any number of people, the Indian government included.
66 · portmanteau said
let’s follow this scenario forwards – because of the global economy and how it operates (i.e. oil) and because of geopolitical strategies by the US, the USSR, and others, Saudi Arabia’s government is immensely wealthy, undemocratic and inn many ways repressive, as far as I know (I’ve never studied it but this is what I think – very happy to be correected).
If that’s the case, how would you fix this? You suggest takig away the source of wealth that maintains stability in the state first and dealing with other issues after. I would suggest giving your money to feminist groups, groups working for democracy in an Islamic context in Saudi Arabia, or other groups that want to take the monney/power the Saudi government and redistributing that money/power (most likely completely transforming the state) – a la Iran, but with enough support for the democratic side of the revolution rather than the theocratic side. Given the history of these places, it seems highly unlikely that destabilizing their economies rather than their polities is the best way to approach things.
Again – highly uniformed, but just some thouhts.
Dr. A, Mass murder by state in Telangana???? Care to elaborate?
78 · jujung said
Jujung, Doc Amo is waiting for “third-party” confirmation, until then we will have to do with his sundry allegations!
78 · jujung said
I can’t find any good sources online. What I was taught is that the peasant/CPI insurgency was suppressed by the Indian army – which the sources I did find say happened from 1948-1951. But if you want to correct my history with a good rigorous source, by all means do so – not extraordinarily confident in my knowledge about this episode in modern Indian history. Perhaps West Bengal under President’s rule in the 1970s would be a better example.
In any case, it’s nont hard to find instances of state sponsored mass murder in India, so please substitute whichever example you want that demonstrates a more powerful military/policing force killing massive numbers of people who are boxed in in a cleansing operation 😉 That’s really the crux of my point about Israel / Gaza.
@Dr. A:
The only massacre in the Telangana area I know of were the communal ones perpetrated by the Nizam of Hyderabad and his Razakar flunkies that prompted India to carry out Operation Polo.
Apologies for the source, it was the first one that came up on google, but it’s hardly a secret, just one of those things nobody likes to talk about: http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/fline/fl1805/18051140.htm
80 · Dr Amonymous said
rotflmao @ western standards of liberalism.
Sorry, I just couldn’t get past that.
“Police claim Abhinav Bharat, the Hindu radical group blamed for the blasts, which killed seven and wounded more than 100 in Malegaon, had designed a flag and written a constitution and was preparing to form a parallel Hindu government in exile operating out of Israel.”
Gosh….is it just me who thinks that shashi tharoor is an extremely handsome guy…..noone commented on that:)