The LA Times has a rather silly piece, where they interview “body language” experts on yesterday’s Presidential debate. The highlight for me was this little bit about pronunciation:
But Glass, who thought the debate was a draw, said Obama seemed unnatural at times. “Somebody coached him and did not do him a favor,” she said. “When he talks about an issue he’s passionate about, his gestures are fluid and real, but other times, he took his index finger and clasped it to his thumb, and it’s phony, it’s not real.”
She also thought his inflection might be a turn-off to some voters. “He’d say, ‘Pahk-ee-stahn,’ or ‘Tolly-bahn.’ You need to say Pakistan and Taliban like everyone else.” (link)
Um, is it possible he pronounces it correctly because… it’s actually the correct pronunciation?
Some bloggers over at the National Review’s “The Corner” have picked up on this as well (thanks for the tip, Sree):
The National Review’s Mark Stein, for example, said that Obama prefers the “exotic pronunciation.” He added, “[O]ne thing I like about Sarah Palin is the way she says ‘Eye-raq’.”
This came after the National Review’s Kathryn Jean Lopez posted an email that argued, “[N]o one in flyover country says Pock-i-stahn. It’s annoying.” (link)
Actually, I know plenty of people in certain “flyover countries” — i.e., in the Indian subcontinent — who pronounce it exactly that way.
Welcome to the United States of Stupidistan, folks.
MD,
try reading the SM post as well–it was even easier to read given the brevity. Amardeep took exception not to the trivialization of correct pronunciation of countries’ names but the apparent need not to pronounce these names correctly, so as “to connect with voters.” (as expressed by the corner) The latter thought is a crock of shit. Swing-state voters are most certainly not making their decisions based on who pronounces, “Pakistan,” as they do (whichever way it may be.)
as to your ‘thread’ holding SM together it is also a crock full of fresh steaming kakki. Class bias in consumption is certainly present, as it is in many online communities, but can you claim to have never laughed at a ‘trailer trash’ joke or nodded knowingly at the same? Ever heard a single country album all the way through? Ever selected bottled water when you had the option of drinking from the tap? Sharpton has his day job, and you apparently, have yours. have fun teasing out the ‘i hate whitey’ in everything you see.
Please do not fling poop at the good doctor. Feel free to disagree with her, but please do not do so in a disagreeable fashion. Also, please state your theses without feces, fertilizer belongs in the fields.
52 · SM Internist said
Understood. In the future I will make sure to reserve my unsubstantiated grand theories of endemic racism and contempt for the middle-class…for other blogs…that may actually deserve the charge.
Here come the cynics. Every 4 years they say something to the effect of I am only choosing the lesser of two evils. I disagree strongly. I have come to hate what Sen. McCain has become in this campaign but he was a fine Senator and Obama while less experienced seems like a well intentioned man with good education and an appetite to learn. Senator McCain seems to have gotten a better understanding of the world from his congressional experience. His bellicosity and temper are troubling but he seems to have made the riht decision multiple times – immigration, justices and the nuclear option, McCain-Feingold, Trade with Vietnam.
Well after 8 years of the current occupants (evil, not curious, stubborn) I am fine with the current choices. To make this campaign better he has get rid of Rovian influences on McCain campaign i.e. Schmidt. I was a strong supporter of McCain and am hoping he loses so that we can get rid of the foul odor of the Rove administration.
I’m the only one allowed to fling poop around here!
So does the National Review prefer “Oriental” to “Asian,” then?
We prefer the term slant-eye as we feel it is more descriptive. Please check our style guidelines for more information.
57 · National Review Offline said
I prefer gook myself.
56 · sebs said
I think so. They have, after all, thrown hissy fits at having to call Bombay “Mumbai” and Madras “Chennai.”
MD,
I didn’t know Alaska and Texas are in the same region.
IMO, ignorance of the pronunciation of this word in particular should equate with ignorance of the word origin (nucleus) and therefore the word’s meaning (nuclear scientists exempt). And so what? I hope someone with access to our nuclear arsenal understands the full meaning of the responsibility… starting with the word itself.
BUT.. IAC.. my original point was more on the topic of the post… in contrast to Obama’s “awkward” proper pronunciation, could the mispronunciation in this case be less of a regionalism and more of a deliberate attempt at conformity to incorrectness?
Second, nucular is a regionalism, and, so what?
Yes and that region is called idiocy.
It tells us nothing about governance and there is nothing wrong with using ‘American’ pronunciations for non-American words.
actually, Obama’s pronunciation is actually not the correct urdu phonetic pronunciation. He says “Pakh-is-stan’ not “Pakh-is-sthan”, ie using the retroflex ‘t’ and not the dental ‘th’, so what obama is doing is attempting to pronounce it “more correct” but still sticking to the American phoneme set.
It’s in line with his general philosphy. lets show the world we dont think of them as stepping stones, and don’t grab our crotches at them and say ‘america, f** yeah’
No one is saying a pronunciation determines governance, but this particular one, and certain people’s reactions to it determine a difference in philosophy.
errata, the american “t” is actually the alveolar, not the retroflex.
and, so what?
ask yourself, if Obama had gotten up there and said, “We have to aks ourselves, do we want to change America” , or “Why is president Bush trippin?” would those be washed away with “those are regionalisms”? If a standard is applied, it should be applied across the board.
64 · heromanyfaces said
hmf is baaack.
I just always thought that Pack-is-tan and Pahk-is-tahn were both accepted pronunciations. I think every news channel pronounces it the Obama way (except maybe Fox News) and it grates on my nerves when they say Pack-is-tan … it just sounds wrong to me.
At least Obama would be able to pronounce my name right, speaking of alternate pronunciations… 😉
As far as Taliban, the pronunciation I’ve heard most often on the news is tael – i – bahn (where ae as in apple, and i as in it) – not like Tollybahn. That sounds like a new expressway in Calcutt^H^H^H^H^H^H^Kolkata 🙂
None of you have yet answered my question, directly.
THANKS SM INTERN!I know you are trying to keep the thread civil and I appreciate it (but I guess if I’m going to dish it out I have to be able to take it, so it’s all good).
Oh, and it’s not cynicism, my slight dislike of both candidates. They seem good men and I may very well be wrong but what exactly have they done during their tenures? Baseball hearings and McCain Feingold and the Annenberg Foundation? We have a lot of problems in our country these days and we have to start asking more of our elected officials. Yes, I will vote and pray that the next President does a better job than the current President. I just think we have to hold their feet to the fire. We’ve let the Washington class get away with a mediocre effort for far too long.
49 · MD said
Tolly-bahn sounds odd, but not that far-off. The arabic “t” sound used to spell taalib (student) has a pull to it so taalib would sound more like tthaawlib (tthaawlibahn –> taalibahn –> tolly-bahn). Actually his pronunciation in this case doesn’t sound anymore right than the more-common Tally-ban either.
That said, I’m not sure how it’s pronounced by the actual Taliban. And I’d rather not google that word at work!
49 · MD said
I think most of what you’re saying here is right on. I’m embarrassed of when I used to make fun of the way that my mother pronounced things, and I don’t like it when other people tell me I pronounce things incorrectly (whether in English or other languages that are mine), and I think it’s obnoxious and in this context, as you point out, frequently classist.
Comment 62-63 is right. Obama is not pronouning Pakistan the way a Pakistani would because English just doesn’t have the right “t” sound. Most uniligual English-speakers couldn’t pronounce “Bharat” either — or “Bhai”.
So Obama is mispronouncing Pakistan in a different way than McCain is mispronouncing Pakistan — and in a way that is less common among Americans.
I love me some kay-suh-dillaz. Pass the whack-a-mole.
72 · Nayagan said
You don’t say that out loud!
😉
None of you have yet answered my question, directly.
please re state it.