We all know the endless debate within our community between “traditionalists” and “modernists” about assimilation. Post 9-11, this debate became broader and more politicized, especially w.r.t. British Muslims. In the UK, public figures argued that Muslims need to be more fully assimilated into British society if further violence was to be avoided. A variant of this argument claimed that the hijab and niqab should be discouraged or banned outright.
A new study out undermines the broad claims of the assimilationists, claiming that Brit-Bangladeshi girls (between 11 and 14 years old) “who wore traditional clothing were significantly less likely to have mental health problems than those whose style of dress was a mix of traditional and white British styles.” [Link]
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p>Interestingly enough, they found no effect of clothing choice on boys at all. To clarify, that means that a boy’s clothing choice didn’t influence his own happiness. I’m sure girls’ clothing choices have a strong impact on the happiness of an 11 to 14 year old boy 
. The “Brick Lane” hypothesis found little support.
Professor Kam Bhui, one of the study authors, said that the result was “surprising” – he had expected that girls who were less fully integrated to show signs of greater strain. “Traditional clothing represents a tighter family unit, and this may offer some protection against some of the pressures that young people face. What it suggests is that we need to assist people who are moving from traditional cultures and becoming integrated into Western societies, as they may be more vulnerable to mental health problems.”
Professor James Nazroo, a medical sociologist at the University of Manchester, said that the findings meant that “notions of Britishness” should be dealt with in a sophisticated way. “There are many ways in which people can be British – these girls who have good mental health, and still have a strong traditional culture, are by implication settled and comfortable with their identities…” [Link]
The article does not explain what researchers meant by traditional clothing. I think it means salvar kameez rather than the hijab/niqab, but am not sure. If so, it doesn’t really inform the debate about the veil at all. Nor does it speak directly to terrorism, or even to social alienation by adults.
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p>Most importantly, I want to reassure all our readers that no matter how overwhelming the evidence collected, no matter how many studies pile up, I’m sure that Gurinder Chadha’s films will have exactly the same trite hackneyed plot that they did before.
The paper is available here. [Thanks Razib]
BBC Radio Asian Network had these results on re-play yesterday, along with discussion with callers on the Nihal show that brought up issues of national/cultural/religious identity via dress. Besides the integration/identity issue, though, I would suspect that the more free-flowing/unrestrictive nature of desi dress is a substantial factor.
the vast majority of parents would be immigrants. no surprise that trads (“good girls”?) be under less duress, or, that it would select for less unstable individuals. boys have more latitude to experiment and be “bad,” ergo, you see no affect.
the paper is open access. you can read the whole thing.
What is the source of duress for tweens/young teens? Is it parents or peers? I think a reasonable prior would have been that a failure to fit in with ones peers and with the dominant society would cause problems. I call this the Brick Lane hypothesis ;).
also: In contrast to Bangladeshi girls, white British girls with traditional clothing preferences had a higher risk, and those with integrated clothing preferences had the lowest risk of mental disorder. White British girls who preferred clothes from other cultural groups (assimilated) have an even higher risk of mental heath problems than white British girls choosing traditional clothing. Girls from both cultures may be encouraged to be more conservative than boys and to conform to cultural practices of their own cultural group,39 but they are also expected to conform to a wider dress code within local peer groups and schools and neighbourhoods. For white British girls, the complete adoption of another culture’s clothing preferences may generate conflict with families and peers, especially if this is an expression of emerging divergence in identity between girls and their peers and parents.
Risk of phase 2 mental health problems by cultural identity based on clothing choices at phase 1, stratified by gender and ethnic group.
re: what type of clothes, they seem to have listed them in other papers: The methods used to classify cultural identity have previously been published.6 7 The strength of affiliation to other or own cultural group was rated by scores to four questions on a four-item Likert scale. Two questions asked about preferences for clothes and then a further two questions asked about preferences for friends. The first question asks about choosing clothing and friendships from the respondent’s “own” cultural group. The second asks about choosing friends and clothing from “other cultures” (see Berry5 and Bhui and colleagues6 7 for methods to classify cultural identity). The responses to these questions for any one domain (friendship or clothing) can be combined to classify pupils into a traditional group (choose only their own cultural group), an assimilated group (choose only from other cultural groups), an integrated group (choose from both cultural groups) and a marginalised group (choose neither from their own nor other cultural groups). Previous work included piloting and debriefing to improve face and content validity and to ensure optimal response rates.6 7
i need to go do an errand, but someone with access should clarify what items they used as markers in pub noted 6 & 7.
How about the girls who wear traditional clothing are more likely to live in highly segregated parts of Britain, so they only interact with others within their segregated space, whereas those who wear more Westernized clothing interact with a diverse individuals. With the former, there are obviously issues of sexism which can contribute to mental health problems but with the latter, there are issues of sexism, racism, and a host of culture-clashes which can create emotional damage?
(Apologies for the longevity)
This is incomplete. The psychological difficulties arise when there is conflict at home (i.e. liberal girls with conservative parents). They should have looked at liberal girls with liberal parents, I am sure that the incidence of mental illness wouldn’t have been any different than that of unconflicted atavistic girls with atavistic parents. Life is easier for sheep (unless you are a frat house mascot)
8 · koppakabana said
Please do not apologize for being long. Brevity may be the soul of wit; however, one should not a priori dismiss copious ejaculations.
Louicypher, you make a great point. I will have to read the whole thing to see the justifications for their methodology. I suspect the endpoints may also make a big different. Follow-up conducted at different ages may yield a far richer and more complicated picture. What if non-hijab girls do better in the long-run, after initial hurdles in their early adult life?
A curious choice of words, perhaps? “Traditional and modern” or “Asian and Western” I could understand, but “traditional and white British”? Indicates a rather unusual dichotomizing of the world in the writer’s mind.
/minor point anyway
ok…looking at the other stuff it looks like classification of clothing was done via self-reporting. that is, they didn’t have specific items in mind (e.g., hijab, burqa, niqab, kameez, etc.), but just asked the kids their own self-perception of how they dressed in comparison to the norms of their community. this is social science, so we should be cautious about over-extrapolating from this one find. there are two related papers that the first author has published.
Acculturation and health status among African-Caribbean, Bangladeshi and White British adolescents: Results Questions about the cultural origins of friends and clothing showed good face and content validity. However, only the questions on friendship choices showed some associations in the predicted directions, with some associations that were unexpected. The most significant findings were that, in comparison with marginalised pupils, for African-Caribbean pupils assimilation was associated with more tiredness (OR=40.7, 3.8–432.8,p<0.001) and traditionalism with less obesity (OR=0.1, 0.02–0.5, p<0.001). For Bangladeshi pupils integration was associated with a lower risk of depression (OR=0.4, 0.2–0.8, p<0.001).
Cultural identity, acculturation, and mental health among adolescents in east London’s multiethnic community : Results: In comparison with marginalised adolescents who chose friends from neither their own or other cultures, fewer mental health problems were found among adolescents making culturally integrated friendship choices (friends from own and other cultures: OR = 0.6, 0.4 to 0.9), boys making integrated friendship choices (OR = 0.45, 0.22 to 0.91), and specifically among Bangladeshi pupils with integrated friendship choices (OR = 0.15, 0.04 to 0.55).
Conclusion: As measures of cultural identity, integrated friendship choices overall, and specifically for boys and Bangladeshi pupils, are associated with lower levels of adolescent mental health problems.
Results are probably indicative of the double-standards that are preached to the female children of immigrants.
Women are given undue pressure to be preservers of the faith, culture, values, etc. MY guess as to why these girls develop these ‘mental issues’ later in life.
Now, back to parsing the questionable categories and definitions.
Women are given undue pressure to be preservers of the faith, culture, values, etc. MY guess as to why these girls develop these ‘mental issues’ later in life.
“undue”? will serve you right when your daughters become loose sluts!
What are the immigration stats for Bangladeshis moving to England? I don’t hear of too many families moving to the UK over the last 10-15 years. Bangladeshis have been there since the 70s with the early 80s being the last significant “batch” of immigrants moving there I would imagine. The “hijabis” I know from the UK are all British as hell , and barely speak Bengali.
The reason I ask is because “hijabs” aren’t “traditional” for the vast majority of Bangladeshi Muslims; it is a recent trend. Shalwaar kameez and saris are; but only FOBs wear that stuff on the regular. The types of South Asian Muslims that wear hijab are generally more assimilated and less tied to their mother country;s traditions and therefore should not be seen as somehow less assimilated than their skirt wearing counterparts. They’re pretty much the same profile.
So I think that this whole thesis that “traditional” parents bearing down on their young aspiring strumpets needs to be downplayed a little bit. The girls that are dressed for the boys attention are no more assimilated than the “hijabis” and are simply going through the regular mental stress of having sex without love and other ego trips that come at that age with all this dating stuff.
Right, there’s no double standard in immigrant communities… my bad.
So I think that this whole thesis that “traditional” parents bearing down on their young aspiring strumpets needs to be downplayed a little bit. The girls that are dressed for the boys attention are no more assimilated than the “hijabis” and are simply going through the regular mental stress of having sex without love and other ego trips that come at that age with all this dating stuff.
right, they could assimilating to the congealing british muslim peer groups which frown upon those loose sluts! (that’s pretty much the dynamic in france, where the hijabi identity is one of the native ones of french muslims)
Right, there’s no double standard in immigrant communities… my bad.
hm. look, if it wasn’t for racism from white people the sort of tensions you see in Communities of Color would not occur. it is white Oppression, and not Indigenous Culture you should be looking toward….
Some of them are Im sure but those are mostly in the urban communities more than the ones that are upwardly mobile. For example, I have distant relatives (females) in the UK that are pretty strict religiously (they hated Bangladesh for its “lack” of Islam when they visited)that went to Oxford and ones a dentist and another is a barrister.
Girls generally do better in school and are less likely to be in those crowds burning books and such. They usually have jobs and responsibilites and still maintain their hijab and devotion to Allah (swt). Maybe teen counselors should recommend hijabs to their stressed out and sexy sisters.
18 · razib said
Razib, another thing , just a quick one. When conservatives like yourself make fun of white liberals and the post-structuralist/ pomo multiculti types, it’s accurate only insofar as you’re showing the hypocracy and silliness of white liberals or a lot of liberals within minority communities. However, it tends to obscure the fact that whites are oppressive and many are racist. And history has shown that when they are the majority they’re pretty bad.
Put it like this: You don’t like Muslims; so in Bangladesh, any popular sentiment for an Islamic state is, in your opinion, a dangerous development for the Hindu minority. Even with the fact that most of the Bangladeshis Islamists rhetoric is against secular Bengalis no matter what their religion or lack of. Okay fine.
Minorities do have legitimate concerns when majority white populations in the West start getting grizzly. In Europe it’s led to genocide. So attack the silly liberals all you want, minorities who can’t speak for themselves will still get fucked, even and especially in the Enlightened West.
And history has shown that when they are the majority they’re pretty bad.
no it doesn’t. the whites is south africa weren’t as bad? whites in zimbabwe? whites in england? whites in minnesota are more racist than whites in low country south carolina?
there are many models of racial homogeneity and racial diversity. san francisco and mississpipi both have racial diversity but obviously the details are very different. southern illinois and northern minnesota may have very few blacks, but the regions differ in their relation to people of country (southern illinois was de-blacked through ethnic cleansing, northern minnesota was not).
as for genocide, that’s totally deceptive because your comparing to an ideal which has never existed. thousands were killed in gujarat recently, not the netherlands. there’s a reason for that.
Who cares if they’re happy or sad. The fact is that London is a melting pot that fails to assimilate, and some communities are rebelling.
Source: Read the book Londonistan.
whites in england?
whites in the british india.
also, the focus on whites makes it as if they are the only group with agency. sikhs, muslims and hindus look the same don’t they? but their social outcome is very different, isn’t it (hindus are more of a foreign born community than muslims according to the UK census thanks to idi amin & co.)? the london subway bombings occur and there’s concern about genocide against muslims? please.
what about acculturation. study after study (conducted in the U.S) reveals the immigrant “health paradox” whereby although the seemingly insurmountable challenges that immigrants face may lead some to believe that immigrants have higher rates of mental health and substance abuse problems —when in fact, immigrants have better mental health (and lower substance use) when compared to american born (2nd generation and higher) populations. did they look at acculturation (vs. assimilation).
1 · ak said
That’s a very interesting point. Not having to fit into skinny jeans can take a lot off one’s mind.
did they look at acculturation (vs. assimilation).
well, you should read the papers. i’m going to read it front to back right now in fact.
26 · razib said
fill me in when you do so!
here’s something from the ‘discussion’:
In contrast to Bangladeshi girls, white British girls with traditional clothing preferences had a higher risk, and those with integrated clothing preferences had the lowest risk of mental disorder. White British girls who preferred clothes from other cultural groups (assimilated) have an even higher risk of mental heath problems than white British girls choosing traditional clothing. Girls from both cultures may be encouraged to be more conservative than boys and to conform to cultural practices of their own cultural group,39 but they are also expected to conform to a wider dress code within local peer groups and schools and neighbourhoods. For white British girls, the complete adoption of another culture’s clothing preferences may generate conflict with families and peers, especially if this is an expression of emerging divergence in identity between girls and their peers and parents.
Bangladeshi boys may be more motivated to and permitted to wear western clothing because of fewer religious and cultural constraints when compared with Bangladeshi girls. Bangladeshi boys who entirely prefer western clothing have a lower risk of mental health problems; this may allow them to “fit in” with non-Bangladeshi social groups. If this makes them less conspicuously different, they may not attract discrimination while securing friendships; alternatively, clothing preferences here may be a proxy for acquiring knowledge about how to develop and sustain mutually advantageous relationships with better social support. Friendship-based measures of identity did not, however, confirm this and our findings on clothing were sustained even after adjustment for social support from friends. One explanation is that identity as expressed in clothing choice may improve self-esteem, which may buffer against distress and conflicts as a resiliency factor. Traditional clothing choices may bolster self-esteem through a positive group identity; this may help with psychological adaptation if these choices reflect the local communities’ “lay policy” for managing cultural adaptation when national policies are ineffective.43
my understanding of the categories they used is this: assimilation = adopting the clothing of outside groups integration = mixing in a more free-form way traditional = distinctive own group clothing marginal = weird stuff like goths & emos (no offense to the goths & emos out there)
What are the immigration stats for Bangladeshis moving to England? I don’t hear of too many families moving to the UK over the last 10-15 years. Bangladeshis have been there since the 70s with the early 80s being the last significant “batch” of immigrants moving there I would imagine. The “hijabis” I know from the UK are all British as hell , and barely speak Bengali.
the 2005 paper says 20% of the sample aggregated (white, pakistani, bangladeshi, african, afro-carribean, etc.) were born abroad. of these groups bangladeshis and africans are the most likely to be in this class, so this suggests that many of these kids are 1.5s or quasi-DBDs.
from the 2005 paper (also open access): We stratified the fully adjusted analyses by ethnic group. Only two findings were highly significant. On friendship choices, integration was protective only among South Asians (OR = 0.25, 0.12 to 0.54, p<0.001), this finding remained significant only for Bangladeshi adolescents (OR = 0.15 95%CI: 0.04 to 0.55, p = 0.004) when stratified by specific ethnic groups. Religious group was not associated with mental health problems. There was a trend for those born outside of the UK to be more likely to have a mental health problem (OR = 1.3, 95%CI: 1 to 1.74, p = 0.09).
OR = odds ratio.
Is a less mentally troubled person necessarily better for society? I doubt great successes of Brit multiculturalism like Omar Sheikh Sayed would show any psychological dysfunction.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ahmed_Omar_Saeed_Sheikh#Early_life In his youth he attended Forest School, Walthamstow, an independent school in North-East London, whose alumni include English cricket captain Nasser Hussain and Peter Greenaway, the filmmaker. Between the ages of 14 and 16 he attended school in Pakistan, where his family had relocated, before returning to the United Kingdom to continue at Forest School.[11] He told school friends that he had been in Pakistan learning about jihad, but was not believed. He was a fine chess-player and won a junior London championship. Later, he attended the London School of Economics, where he studied Applied Mathematics and Economics. At the LSE, he came under the influence of Islamic fundamentalists and was instrumental in recruiting students to the cause around London.
he was actually assimilated FWIW….
At one point yes. After he “turned” he remained clean shaven and dressed Western because it was required for his job, i.e. gaining the trust of Western backpackers and journalists. I recall Islamist comments from his father in newspaper interviews, I doubt that Jr.’s assimilation was anything more than superficial at any point
Was he really assimilated? If you define it by participating in events/schools/activities one’s peers do, I guess that is true. But cultural assimiliation means accepting the culture’s core values. Wouldn’t you say, at least based up on what Marc Sageman has documented, that most of the western jihadists would fall under a similar category? Guys who seemed assimilated, but their minds were truly somewhere else. Their day to day actions betrayed the true intentions/feelings?
At one point yes. After he “turned” he remained clean shaven and dressed Western because it was required for his job, i.e. gaining the trust of Western backpackers and journalists. I recall Islamist comments from his father in newspaper interviews, I doubt that Jr.’s assimilation was anything more than superficial at any point
sure. the overall point though is that there is a reason i think to expect more islamic violence in the UK from pakistanis than bangladeshis; and that’s cuz the pakistanis are more assimilated and a much more native born community….
Wouldn’t you say, at least based up on what Marc Sageman has documented, that most of the western jihadists would fall under a similar category? Guys who seemed assimilated, but their minds were truly somewhere else. Their day to day actions betrayed the true intentions/feelings?
i think western islamists are a lot like left-wing radicals in the 1960s; a lot of the french muslims (of north african ancestral origin mostly) weren’t well educated, but part of the alienated underclass. some of them hitched onto islamism as a way to channel their resentment against the powers-that-be. IOW, i don’t think the problem is western islam per se, but that muslims who become radicalized start identifying with the international concerns of the ummah which turns them against identifying with the countries of their birth.
(the muslim radicals who were raised in a muslim majority country are very different sociologically in sagemen’s sample; more privileged and well educated)
What many Muslims who feel that way don’t realise or won’t admit is that the more ‘Islamic’ you make a place, the more it will resemble Afghanistan under the Taliban. Inevitably.
Guys who seemed assimilated, but their minds were truly somewhere else.
also, to be clear, i think a lot of people who go into islamism might at one point have genuinely been non-islamist, or even been hostile toward religion. people change. there are many ex-atheists who are now sincere about their religion, and many ex-religionists who are sincere about their atheism, and so forth. if born into a catholic family perhaps many of the same types who be heavily involved in catholic traditionalism when they decided to seek out a trad path to redeem their lives? as it is, today trad catholicism has more of a focus on cultural issues such as abortion, so they would be perhaps more political. the “radical” wing of islam on the other promotes other particular concerns….
in any case, consider me. i’ve always basically been an atheist. but assume that at some point i become religious. what religion would i convert to? i think it’s fair that say that with the priors you have (my cultural background) there are good odds that i’d become muslim. OTOH, if i came from a jewish background i would be more likely to become jewish. this doesn’t mean it’s a deterministic prediction, but it biases your choices.
as long as violent islamic radicalism is a major force world-wide a subset of young muslims across the world will be swept up in it. if islamic radicalism turns away from violence and toward democratic engagement they’ll probably become foot-soldiers in political movements like members of the chrisitan coalition were.
What many Muslims who feel that way don’t realise or won’t admit is that the more ‘Islamic’ you make a place, the more it will resemble Afghanistan under the Taliban. Inevitably.
shut up kufar 😉 muslim countries are the best; that’s why all the indians want to move to bangladesh!
I don’t understand how a moron like you is allowed to continue commenting after what you said in post #14.
I love how you speak as if we are to somehow take your opinion as credible.
Thank you for sharing your concern over my future child-raising techniques. It’s not me that the South Asian daughters rebel against. It’s ignorant shytheads like you. Good Luck scarring your children.
Do us all a favor and STFU already!
krish,
you sir are an islamophobe! you better watch what you say if you live in the UK….
That’s the first time in my life I’ve accused of being -phobe anything in my life.
I don’t hate anyone, just stupid ignorant people like you 🙂
I’ll offer the same proverb that I’ve given several others on this forum:
“It is better to keep your mouth shut and to let people think you are a fool, then to open it and remove their doubt”
Sage words to live by, my friend.
No, no, no! True fanatics will assimilate as deeply into the target society as possible, being sleepers for years if necessary. The only way to tell them apart is by their very extent of assimilation. If your neighbor is clean-shaven, openly grills pork sausages, and plays golf on weekends, be sure to tip off the FBI that he is a sleeper. He might not look remotely Middle Eastern, but many people from the Middle East don’t look remotely Middle Eastern. You might think the friendly shawarma seller on the corner is not Middle Eastern, right until the pita he has sold you explodes in your face, showering hummus and tahini all over your shirt. Your neighbor might look and claim to be of Northern European descent, but unless he can corroborate it with a video of his sister getting bitten by a moose, he’s lying.
The most dangerous sleepers are those people who have their own hatred for the US erased from their memories before being sent here. But after they spend a fetid 48 hours in a basement being waterboarded and tortured, their repressed memories of hatred against the US government will surely come out.
Krish- razib is being sarcastic.
check out his commenting history if u want.
he’s a Muslim raised Atheist.
41 · Krish**** said
Hindu girls tend to be sluts (I’m neither Hindu nor Muslim, but that’s how it is).
Hey hey, enough already! Razib was being sarcastic, and this seems to have caused confusion. Still, there’s no reason for this to escalate further. Razib was kidding and everybody is cool.
No more name calling.
sorry guys 😉 i should have cleared it up…but you know, i really enjoy being a righteous tard (doesn’t matter what ideology).
All this discussion about assimilation and not one mention of the Borgs? pingpong, I am disappointed.
46 · Rahul S said
I feel like you’re writing the story of my life here. Every morning when I peer into my closet, it takes so much self-control for me to stop myself from wearing thongs with impossibly low-rise jeans. I feel so lucky that I have not suffered a series of Janet Jackson-esque wardrobe malfunctions, especially as I wear the shortest dresses and the lowest-cut blouses. Really, I must be like Draupadi whose modesty was preserved thanks only to the infinite grace of almighty Krishna. Anytime I see a white boy, I find myself using all my feminine wiles to seduce him. I don’t how you know about my tendencies, but you do. Please propose a causal pathway that causes Hindu women to have sluttish tendencies. I need to know why I am like this, so I can take all the steps I possibly can toward being a more chaste woman. Help me, Rahul S. Save us, Rahul S. I imagine myself in a cotton sari reverently circling the Tulsi Ma at dusk. Only you can help me become the embodiment of our greatest traditions, and set me straight. Is it any wonder your name is Rahul? The namesake of the wise Buddha’s son, you’ve manifested yourself in Kali Yuga to tell us ‘like it is.’