Especially if you are a smart, attractive, single desi woman. Seriously. This isn’t about desi women in particular but you’ll see how this information could be used for evil especially by desi parents. I know some of you forward posts to your parents but don’t do it with this one. You’ve been warned. NSFP=Not Safe for Parents.
Ok, now that I’ve cleared my conscience let’s get to the article at hand shall we? Slate.com recently published, The Eligible-Bachelor Paradox, which makes use of game theory to explain why the best women often end up single and alone if they wait “too long” to get married. We’ll save judgement for the end:
The shortage of appealing men is a century-plus-old commonplace of the society melodrama. The shortage–or–more exactly, the perception of a shortage–becomes evident as you hit your late 20s and more acute as you wander into the 30s. Some men explain their social fortune by believing they’ve become more attractive with age; many women prefer the far likelier explanation that male faults have become easier to overlook.
The problem of the eligible bachelor is one of the great riddles of social life. Shouldn’t there be about as many highly eligible and appealing men as there are attractive, eligible women?…Actually, no–and here’s why. Consider the classic version of the marriage proposal: A woman makes it known that she is open to a proposal, the man proposes, and the woman chooses to say yes or no. The structure of the proposal is not, “I choose you.” It is, “Will you choose me?” A woman chooses to receive the question and chooses again once the question is asked. [Link]
So what have we learned so far? Despite the fact that men usually propose, it is the woman that typically dictates if and when a marriage will occur. In a free and modern society (meaning no forced or pressured marriages) the real power rests with the woman. Let’s go on then:
You can think of this traditional concept of the search for marriage partners as a kind of an auction. In this auction, some women will be more confident of their prospects, others less so.In game-theory terms, you would call the first group “strong bidders” and the second “weak bidders.” Your first thought might be that the “strong bidders”–women who (whether because of looks, social ability, or any other reason) are conventionally deemed more of a catch–would consistently win this kind of auction.
But this is not true. In fact, game theory predicts, and empirical studies of auctions bear out, that auctions will often be won by “weak” bidders, who know that they can be outbid and so bid more aggressively, while the “strong” bidders will hold out for a really great deal. [Link]
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So the brilliant and attractive women hold out for someone worthy of their brilliance and attractiveness. Who could blame them? But, meanwhile, the “tier two” women claim their men with their womanly ways, thus removing them from the “game,” leaving the tier one women with fewer candidates that are perhaps, and I quote, “short, socially awkward, underemployed.” Now what about men like me…ahem…cough cough…tier one…cough…men that are still unmarried and ripe for conquest by those aging tier 1 women? I’m guessing we (not me in specific of course, just other tier 1s) might be defective in terms of our megalomania or commitment phobia. James Bond syndrome. So we are essentially out of the game as well (until maybe a much younger tier one or two woman clubs us over the head and aggressively claims us).
Where have all the most appealing men gone? Married young, most of them–and sometimes to women whose most salient characteristic was not their beauty, or passion, or intellect, but their decisiveness. [Link]
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The article concludes with a warning. If you want to win this “game” then follow the advice laid out here. Aggressively choose a mate while you are still young. However, you must first believe that the “prize” is worth winning. That is a much more difficult question. A mate isn’t life’s only prize, or even its most important one depending on your view of things.
But maybe Rahuluji, you are the one who creates personas to counter me and then claim it’s me to get me banned.
Clever.
That’s the kind of “chalaktva” that can only come from you know where.
I thought we were talking about American relationship trends.
PG, maybe, that is why you and I are never meant to be. Tragic. And here I was, dreaming of idyllic moonlit nights in the cool gardens of Vrindavan where I tantalize you with freshly plucked feathers from the peacocks fluttering around the ISKCON campus.
It’s not my imagination, PG, just the Maya you enmesh our threads in. As for IPs, your ability to muster up legions of unsuspecting addresses to spread your bounty has been well established.
Did you even read my posts?? Are you aware of where you are posting?? I was very clearly talking about BOTH Indian and American relationship trends. Wow, you’ve got some excellent trolling skills there! You totally got me and everyone! 🙂
I’m assuming Rahul’s got PG spotting (or swatting?) on his resume. I’m sure its a much sought after skill.
Hey MD. Good to see another ABD born in the 60s. There aren’t many of us out there! Oh, I agree that these articles have been around forever. That’s why I made a feeble attempt to post Newsweek’s 2007 debunk of their famous 1987 article in which they said that a college educated woman has a better change of being killed by a terrorist than getting married after age 35 (something they wouldn’t dare to say now). When they went back and interviewed the same 30-something women from 1987, guess what, most of them were married and several had given birth since 1987.
I was actually making two points, one was that there is lots of contradictory stuff out there on this topic. Fear-mongering to successful professional women sells magazines, apparently. The other point was that there wasn’t so much pressure from desi parents back then. All the 60s born ABDs that I know personally are either single (and getting no pressure about it) or married to non-desis. I’m married to a half-desi and I come the closest to the “auntie ideal.” Not sure what happened in the interim. Maybe there are just more aunties around these days? 😉
91 · 20sdesiguy said
Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus ? Btw if both male & female can have sex with whomever they are attracted to to, then I wonder what is the purpose of marriage other than procreation, non-sexual activity partners during youth and companionship in old age ? In that sense society should allow sex with mutually consenting partners and then the incentive for marriage is reduced to only for the real serious guys & gals which probably translates to marriage at older age for both sexes.
Hey Neisha! Thanks for responding. Funny, I have had the opposite experience. Everyone (even the non-desis) were very pushy about the marriage thing when I was in my twenties and early thirties, but are more laid back now. Also, I grew up in a small midwestern town so everyone married young.
That’s really interesting, MD! I grew up in suburban Chicago and then lived in East and West coast cities from college onward. So, I didn’t see that kind of pressure. Growing up there were two kinds of desi parents, the supposedly “cool” kind like mine, who assimilated completely (we’re talking late nights at the disco — it being the 70s and all). And the kind who could be fooled into thinking that their daughters were at a pooja when they were really making big hair and changing into large taffeta dresses enroute to the prom (it being the 80s by that time). Both kinds of parents were so busy struggling to find their own way culturally in the US, that they pretty much left us to our own devices socially. I’m sensing that desi parents, like other Baby Boomer parents these days, are a bit more socially aware and involved with their kids than parents of teens were back in the 70s and 80s.
91 · 20sdesiguy said
I don’t accept your generalizations regarding which gender wants xyz more than another gender (and there’s more than just two genders, you know), but yeah, whoever wants/needs “it” (meaning anything) less is going to have more power at the negotiating table than the party that wants “it” more. Also, from my understanding, sex ends with marriage. And marriage is an economic institution–it has more to do with building property and passing it on to legitimate heirs than relatively modern concepts of romance and love. The “practical” desi conception of marriage is much more honest about this fundamental truth than the contemporary western Hallmark(tm) mirage.
No! But I guess that makes it even harder on us! Ugh
Too true, to true … I couldn’t have said it better myself. I’ve noticed Jewish culture also seems highly cognizant of this basic truism.
Problem is that 1st generation ABD’s are often asked to adhere to this Desi ideal by our parents, while at the same time having the western fairy-tale ideal rammed down our throat day-and-night (which even a lot of Caucasian Americans grow disillusioned with), while at the same time are forced to find their own way socially and culturally (as Neisha pointed out).
My parents most definitely weren’t “cool” or the slightest bit socially aware. I love’em, God bless’em, but they proved completely and thoroughly incompetent in helping us find our way socially and culturally. They unfortunately proved to be a hindrance in this regard. It’s like we had to make one society happy by day and another completely incompatible society happy by night. And we were supposed to trust them to select a suitable lifelong spouse!?! Not gonna happen, hence going along with Western socializing and dating practices. My sister thought she could do better on her own, so do I, it’s as simple as that really.
Yes! 😛 Well, ok, no, not really …
Is harbajan singh a spinster?
Maybe I am super naive, but I would be freaked out at the idea of marrying at 24. Why are guys who are single into their early 30s then considered commitment-phobes? Then again, I don’t think every relationship should/does lead towards long-term marriage/monogamy, nor that marriage implies “consistent and available sex” as someone mentioned upthread, so maybe I am a commitment-phobe, too 🙂
Harbeer, I’m happy to see you commenting, again.
114 · Camille said
Thanks, Camille. I’ve got a deadline tomorrow, hence the indulgence in “procrastination.” Had to be on the prettiest day so far this year in the Bay Area, too…so nice out…
12 · Another ABCD guy on April 11, 2008 08:04 PM · Direct link · “Quoteâ€(?)
Too true, to true … I couldn’t have said it better myself. I’ve noticed Jewish culture also seems highly cognizant of this basic truism.
Problem is that 1st generation ABD’s are often asked to adhere to this Desi ideal by our parents, while at the same time having the western fairy-tale ideal rammed down our throat day-and-night (which even a lot of Caucasian Americans grow disillusioned with), while at the same time are forced to find their own way socially and culturally (as Neisha pointed out).
My parents most definitely weren’t “cool” or the slightest bit socially aware. I love’em, God bless’em, but they proved completely and thoroughly incompetent in helping us find our way socially and culturally. They unfortunately proved to be a hindrance in this regard. It’s like we had to make one society happy by day and another completely incompatible society happy by night. And we were supposed to trust them to select a suitable lifelong spouse!?! Not gonna happen, hence going along with Western socializing and dating practices. My sister thought she could do better on her own, so do I, it’s as simple as that really.
I know how you feel! My parents are completely clueless in that respect. They don’t want me to date at all, but there’s no way I would go with anyone they could possibly choose. In case you’re wondering, I’m a 21 yr old desi girl, in my last yr of an undergrad degree. My brother and sister both date, which stresses my parents out who think they must have done something wrong. I, then, try to make up for them by being the good girl (At least in front of them, and while I live with them, since I’m moving out in a few months)…I just met this really cool guy, but don’t want to start anything because of the whole, it won’t work out because he won’t understand the culture, my parents will kill me, etc. etc…
SP,
The figure you quote of 20 minutes/day of sun on the hands and face at midsummer is for people with skin who is not UV tolerant (generally, people with light skin). Someone with UV tolerant skin can require hours of sun exposure to get the same Vitamin D production.
Moreover, it is virtually impossible to obtain sufficient Vitamin D from diet alone. Fortified milk is enough to prevent rickets in children over the winter months, but to match the production of Vitamin D from sunshine means ingesting prescription supplements.
Read more here (with citations and everything):
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vitamin_D#Groups_at_greater_risk_of_deficiency
Oops — the comment above was supposed to go on a different tab. Mods: please delete.
115 · Harbeer said
If you thought it was pretty in the city by the Bay today, you should have gone for a walk a little farther south in the Santa Cruz Mountains. Simply stunning out. Good luck with the book, I hope you won’t be too caught up to enjoy some BBQ on Sunday.
cio cio san:
I don’t want to butt into anyone’s business but go for it! You might regret it later and and every failed relationship teaches some valuable life skills, in my experience. Your parents will come around, even mine did though my mother at least in the beginning regularly lamented where she went wrong!
I’ll turn 21 next week btw, so it’s not like I’m some old fogey lecturing you…I’ve been in the same boat! It’s also helpful that your siblings date, so it’s not so much as a shock to your parents unlike if you were the first!(Like me)
Meena, if I lived in the Netherlands, I would have been dating the women there with or without my parents’ approval. They be super hot!
Actually, I’d have dated them but probably not told my parents…which is what I did in America.
I don’t know about super-hot…there are not as many blondes as in Scandinavia if you’re into those, and anyway being blonde does not necessarily equate being hot 😉 I’ve seen girls here in all shapes and sizes as well…tending to be much taller than in the rest of Europe, but there are some really petite ones even in my college circles…bottom line there are some beautiful and some not so beautiful people here just like everywhere else 😉
These days with better healthcare, nutrition, and longevity maybe it is not so bad if you wait even well into your thirties to marry? My parents married and started having children (four sons) in their mid-thirties which was almost unheard of back then. also a married couple I know have just discovered that she is accidentally pregnant… at the age of 47!
People always feel sorry for spinsters that they could never find someone to marry. But people still believe bachelors, no matter how old, could still get married to some PYT.”
well I have to admit I care less about what people think than do most people, but..what “people”? I thought such attitudes were goofy when I was in high school (though i did anticipate marriage after a fashion), and I think they’re goofy now. What century are you living in? The older single women I know travel, study all kinds of things, start businesses, take classes, and sometimes even have “boyfriends” and get married. As someone has noted, you can find a study anywhere to support your view, but it has been generally well known that older single women are happier on the whole than older single men. Now this doesn’t mean that older single men need to be married. More like it means they have some pretty serious problems and that is one reason they never married. Women who never marry are less likely to have severe neurosis because their non-married status can often be due to living in town with four women to each man, or the men looking for younger. In any case, save your pitiful stereotypes for those who need them. Most never married women are fine with all that. Not all, but many, probably most from my experience. You were wondering where are all the “famous” “spinsters”? Well, I could go back in history–Jane Austen, Rachel Carson, the oldest member of the Sex in the City quartet, and quite a few others who escape me at the moment. That sort of thing. But if you’re a reality tv type of gal, then well, I guess I can’t think of any heroines for you.
When I was 17-21, it was fun to flirt, chase after (desi/white) girls between 26-31. I’m 22-23 now and prefer (white/desi) girls 18-23. Women, especially those over 26, have too many issues and insecurities for me to deal with now. They btch about being old, loosing their beauty, etc, *ugh.
In terms of Desi girls, I defintely prefer desi girls living in South Asia. It is pure youthful fun to flirt with girls in the homeland. I’ve had great experiences with Desi girls in the South Asia. They don’t have the baggage and confusion that so many Indian-American and to a lesser extent Indian-born girls living in the states have. I love Indian-American girls as friends but defintely not for dating.
Desi girls in South Asia/European girls/South American girls > Indian-American girls/White American girls
I <3 non-American women (especially Indian born Indians living in South Asia and European).
I hope I didn’t offend anyone. Just stating my experience. By the way, I’m an ABD.
What is up with that Indian chick in Battlestar Gallactica? Everyone’s hooking up with her except me.
My theory: Men are happiest partnered with SLIGHTLY inferior women (slightly less intelligent, less powerful, less talented, less successful, less whatever EXCEPT for looks) and women are happiest with slightly superior men (again except for looks). So you have lots of pairings of the top 90% of men with the bottom 90% of women. Who is left over after all these pairings?
The top 10% of women and the bottom 10% of men.
There are a few problems with this theory. First, what constitutes inferior/superior for a woman is usually a transient function, that is it changes over time. Usually money and looks are fairly consistent however.
They btch about being old, loosing their beauty, etc, *ugh
How true, I learned this the hard way. Not only that, Indian-American women usually have the biggest double standard that they apply to desi/non-desi men in the history of double standards. Only my experience, but you seem to echo it.
Maybe just the quality of women you are capable of attracting. No offense meant, of course.
1 · Nali said
Nali, you must have been reading Anita Jain’s “Marrying Anita”. I swear she uses the word at least eleven times during the novel. Such a weird word- why must people’s reactions and actions be placed on this backwards/forwards continuum? Its the adjective “backward” in stealth gear.
130 · Rahul said
Nice response, R. That’s how it’s done.
: Women, especially those over 26, have too many issues and insecurities for me to deal with now. :- They btch about being old, loosing their beauty, etc, *ugh.:
as far as I am concerned,women find themselves more attractive,confident and strong only when they turn 26
Nice one there! Our ‘champ’ is probably unattractive with too many personal issues.
Besides that, it is the luxury of the ABD to be able to claim his preference in different types of desi girls or boys.
Btw, I think the reason that so many ABD’s are hung up on marriage is not only the Indian but also the American culture. I’m always amazed at how big a deal is made of weddings in the USA. Here people usually have a small and simple wedding, going with the Calvinist culture of the country, and many people choose not to get married. Honestly is it that big a deal if you are not married by 30? Why get married at all is my question, except for pleasing the relatives. It is far better to enjoy life than to stress over such things. Of course here also the divorce rate is increasing, and most importantly the number of single people is at an all time high. An acquaintance of mine postulated his theory that people have just forgotten or don’t want to compromise anymore.
Maybe just the quality of women you are capable of attracting. No offense meant, of course.
yeah nice one! only problem is, it’s completely self-contradictory! it’s the “high quality’ tier-1 women that are the most prominent exhibitions of the behavior stated in post #126. And the fact of the matter is, these women never find fault in themselves rather that “there’s no one good out there”
what explains the increased divorce rates?when more and more women are getting educated and entering the job market ,they are no longer willing to tolerate the indignities heaped upon them.Financial independence equips them to opt out of bad relationships.However, in a society which is still male dominated ,women continue to get blamed for breaking marriages due to their ego hassles and not tolerating economic disparities!
hi any one can contact to satisfy her
The article concludes with a warning. If you want to win this “game†then follow the advice laid out here. Aggressively choose a mate while you are still young.
This flies in the face of how most women perceive their role in the very “game” you state. Most would cast themselves as passive elements, always waiting for the male to approach, escalate, essentially take every active/aggressive position.
127 · Name said
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She is a Cylon. I believe this should answer all future questions about gender dynamics in the hetero dating world.
139 · HMF said
What, the antibiotics didn’t work? So sad.
“We act as though comfort and luxury were the chief requirements of life, when all that we need to make us happy is something to be enthusiastic about.â€
…or if you prefer…
“Even a blind squirrel will find a nut every once in awhile.†– old southern saying
What, the antibiotics didn’t work? So sad.
Not that I care, but you don’t see me linkin’ back to a post inquiring about you.
That’s a cheap shot…the guy’s comments were crude and perhaps offensive but maybe they accurately reflect his experiences. And we have no idea what kind of women he’s capable of attracting. I have seen strong, intelligent, attractive women turned to mush by a whole range of men including seemingly very ordinary and in fact obnoxious ones.
I have seen strong, intelligent, attractive women turned to mush by a whole range of men including seemingly very ordinary and in fact obnoxious ones.
Of course you’ve seen it, because it happens every day on 5th avenue manhattan to the jungles of Ghana amongst the Ashanti. Also, what’s the implication, that if any woman does go into a long term relationship, by some morbid definition, she’s “settled” and grouped into “tier II or less”? Ridiculous. The NY/NJ area has 200,000 more single women than men. Does that mean all other women in the rest of the country are tier-II? Or does it mean, that in places like NY/NJ women just consider men disposable and have the security of other 35+ single women to validate their self-inferred claims of “being tier I and repeated rejections?”
Err, the article was written by a guy.
I agree. The fact of the matter is that it is never the guys’ fault, it is the fact there are no good women out there.
Sorry, I should have said, “In my experience, guys who complain about how women tend to be pathetic, gold-digging, delusional or shallow always do so because they are incapable of attracting or keeping the interest of the decent women. Just my experience, of course.” Yeah, that sounds much better.
BTW, Here are two interesting articles on theories of relationships and marriage based on economic and statistical studies.
Anyway, not going to get sucker further into this rathole. That’s it from me on this thread.
147 · Rahul said
Yeah, this is definitely not the place to get sucker.
other 35+ single women to validate their self-inferred claims of “being tier I and repeated rejections?”
I was referring to this theory. And not only that, it was the authors claim that the tier I women took upon that status themselves:
“that auctions will often be won by “weak†bidders, who know that they can be outbid and so bid more aggressively, while the “strong†bidders will hold out for a really great deal“
Hahahahahaha at the sarcasm and being called unattractive with many issues.
I have a ‘playa hater’ here (woot woot!). Rahul, I’m quite satisified with the quality of women, I’ve been able to attract. I just have a strong preference for non-American women.
If you’re a tall, fair-skinned or wheatish, decent (above average) looking Desi guy (like me), I would try with ‘tier I’ foreign women and not ‘tier 1’ American women. For example, I’ve dated rich European girls whom I can discuss world issues, Indian culture/movies and philosophy. I cannot discuss this s*it with ditzy, messed up in the head, sugar-daddy girls from Orange County (CA) or Long Island/Hamptons (NY). Lol.
In my humble opinion, you have to be white, black, or latino to get ‘tier 1’ American women (exceptions you’re a doctor (goldigger) lawyer (goldigger), the Indian Barack Obama, the Indian Tiger Woods lol). And Indian-American women, they always say Desi guys have no game, are ugly (compared with black, white, latino and persian guys). When I can get a ‘great’ Desi girl in South Asia or a beautiful European girl — why bother with Indian-American or White American girls? Simple as that.
Anyway, im out. Have to go study.