The New York Times has an article on Sranan Tongo, the creole language that is spoken by a majority of people in Suriname, in South America.
Suriname, like Guyana and Trinidad, has a large Indian diaspora population from the 19th century, people who came across originally as indentured laborers. For a country of just 470,000 people, the linguistic and cultural diversity is truly astonishing:
To get a sense of the Babel of languages here, just stroll through this capital, which resembles a small New England town except the stately white clapboard houses are interspersed with palm trees, colorful Chinese casinos and minaret-topped mosques.
Slip into one of the Indonesian eateries known as warungs to hear Javanese, spoken by about 15 percent of the population. Choose a roti shop, with its traditional Indian bread, to listen to Surinamese Hindi, spoken by the descendants of 19th-century Indian immigrants, who make up more than a third of the population. And merchants throughout Paramaribo speak Chinese, even though the numbers of Chinese immigrants are small. (link)
Is it just me, or is Suriname exactly like Queens? (The food options sound enticing.)
For the curious, there is a Sranan Tongo-to-English dictionary here (not many words derived from Indian languages, as far as I can tell), and a “Sarnami Hindustani”-to-Dutch dictionary here. (Of course, for the latter, you need to know Dutch!)
I would also recommend a reader comment on an earlier post by Vinod (where he mentioned the Surinamese Indians in Amsterdam).
Gosh, was that my post that was linked? feels flattered 🙂 No means an expert on all things Surinami, but trying to give a perspective from someone who has grown up with both Dutch and ‘authentic Indian’ cultures.
It’s a very old post btw, some of my observations need some editing by now I think!
Meena, we always like to hear from people who can testify because they’ve lived somewhere or grown up there. It adds a lot of value to the site…
I’ve heard that the Indian foods in Guyana/Surinama/Trinidad is excellent. However, I’ve been to “Singhs Roti Shop” in the Dorchester burrough of Boston. I was very disappointed. It was nasty.
I am under the impression that they have retained a lot of Indian culture, however, and that’s interesting. One thing that’s cool about them, is that they are much more laid back and carefree than Desis from North America or India.
4 · boston_mahesh said
Hey yo I’m laidback and carefree. ……………………………….
In fact, the Guyana president is of South Asian descent: Bharrat Jagdeo
Meena wrote:
It’s Surinamese in English and Surinami in Hindi, no? Or are they actually called Surinami by the Dutch? Anyway, I enjoyed your post that Amardeep linked to.
I think it’s interesting that you, Amardeep, refer to the desis in Suriname as descendants of 19th century “indentured laborers,” while the Times calls them “immigrants.” Hmm…
There’s quite a few Surinami desis living in Holland. First time I ever went to Amsterdam when I was 18 I kept seeing Indians everywhere, chatted to a few of them and their families all came over from Surinam as immigrants and now there’s a generation born in Holland. Really laid back cool dudes just like the Trini browns.
Most of the Indians from Suriname migrated to the Netherlands when it was was announced that Suriname was going to be granted independence from the Dutch. There was a mass migration. I remember Time magazine featured the story. There was no place to house these people and they were temporarily housed in Dutch army barracks. These Indians who left were afraid of living under a Black government.
Suriname is more fortunate culturaly than Guyana or Trinidad. The Dutch did not insist on Dutch only like the British(English only)but encouraged the people to preserve their native language. It is not uncommon to find Chinese shopkeepers who speak Hindi as well as Dutch.
4 ÷ boston_mahesh “I’ve heard that the Indian foods in Guyana/Surinama/Trinidad is excellent. However, I’ve been to “Singhs Roti Shop” in the Dorchester burrough of Boston. I was very disappointed. It was nasty.”
Like Meena, I feel compelled to comment on all Trinidad/Guyana/Suriname posts. My credentials include 35 years of marital bliss with a Trinidadian Indian, very frequent visits to Trinidad (in fact, I will be there next week), and a genuine reciprocity to each other’s cultures – hers, diasporic, mine, the source.
Boston_Mahesh, their food, though still Indian, is quite an acquired taste for most Indians. It is actually reminiscent of peasant cooking from West Bihar/East UP, where only the cheaper spices and fewer ingredients are used because of simple reasons of economics. That simplicity won’t be found even in the middle class homes of Patna or Banaras. I should know. I am from Bihar. The roti, which actually refers to one particular type of roti – the daalpuri – is also quite different from what you would get in Bihar or in Parathe Wali Gali in old Delhi. Theirs is actually much more difficult to make.
Recognizing the cultural gap as far as cuisine is concerned, we have learned not to inflict Trinidadian Indian food on our IBD friends. You will be surprised that most Trinidadians despise the royal richness of Mughlai food just as much you hated Singh’s. As my Trini friends would say, “Daal have no business bein’ thick like custard, nah!”
A note on Singh’s – I have tried the New York and Orlando locations but not the Boston one. The food is authentically Trinidad Indian. I do love it, but then I have had a lot of incentive over the years, including threats and coercion from Aunty-ji, to acquire a taste for their food.
4 · boston_mahesh “One thing that’s cool about them, is that they are much more laid back and carefree…”
I will exclude Suriname from my response to the above comment only because I have known only two Surinamis in my entire life. But I have known hundreds of Trinidadians and Guyanese. Most of them happen to be my relatives. I will also exclude the pockets of Trinidadian/Guyanese immigrants living in places such as New York or London for reasons outside of the scope of this comment.
First of all, we need to qualify our impression of this perceived cultural openness. Drinking is not a taboo in their society. At most Indian parties, my wife is the only Indian woman with a scotch in her hand. Dancing is de rigueur among all ages, even old grandmas and grandpas. Dating is a necessity because they do not subscribe to the Indian system of arranged marriages. However, if you can peel just a few of these skins off their onion, they are as parochial and conservative as they come. Interracial marriages? Forget about it! I urge you to go to a place called Movietown in Port of Spain, Trinidad, on a Saturday night and just watch the thousands of young people on dates. You may spot five Indians with interracial partners, and probably not one Indian with a black. Sound familiar, IBD’s? Agreed, there is no caste system, and intermarriage among Hindus, Muslims and Christians are about as common as inter-religious marriages among the ABD’s here. Again, the more educated the Trinidadians/Guyanese are, the more selective they become. My wife’s younger sisters had a tough time selling their white American husbands to my in-laws. Of course, I was an instant hit.
Their Hindu rituals, which I participate in all the time, are much more archaic than ours. They are frozen in time. A death in the family is followed by puja every night for 12 days. For my nephew’s wedding in Orlando, we formed a parade to the nearest lake to scoop out a pot of dirt from the banks and bring it back to the mandap, a custom called “matkore” that was abandoned in the urban areas of Bihar and UP decades ago. Many of their Indian customs – going beyond the Hindu religion for a second – are equally old-fashioned. You will find many Trinidadians giving up something for Lent or fasting for Ramadan. The fact that the same Muslims would go out to fete and drink (fete is Trinidadian for partying) after Ramadan is over is just an added dimension of their culture. Hence you can say they are more laidback. I have a different interpretation. Their desi-ness is not at war with their west-influenced mores. Any objections there, ABD’s? That’s the way it should be, right?
Phhew! Sorry for the rambling comment, Amardeep.
I like Floridian’s comments. He always has an interesting perspective of looking at things and that adds to my knowlegde base of the everything desi or even otherwise.
Lucia Rijker, The Dutch Destroyer AKA, The most dangerous woman in the world, is of Surinamese descent. You may remember her as Hillary Swank’s opponent, Billie Blue Bear, in Miliion Dollar Baby.
You know, the one that paralyzed her…
That cracks me up. That’s what I mean, they’re just so cool and true in the way they speak, I love it.
The Dutch Surinamese of African background have produced some of the greatest soccer players in the world for the last 25 years like Ruud Gullit and Frank Rijkaard. There’s only one desi Surinami who played for Holland in the World Cup, he was called Aaron Winter.
Floridian, what a truly fine contribution at #10! Thank you, and humble congratulations!!
ditto. maximum respect to floridian for breaking it down for us.
I was told what the Surinamese-Indian people speak in, is called Sarnami. It does have some resemblance to Hindi… Bhojpuri/Awadhi or Bihar-ish Hindi. I could follow it like 45% err, no … 44.34% give or take. But whatever… FWIW, I know now (from hearing while FM channel surfing) that there is a place in The Netherlands called Kooch-Bihaarslaan/straat. Belangrijk!
Totally off-topic, I knew a half-Suriname-Hindustaan half Dutch (as in white) girl but she felt for India more than towards Suriname (outside of that felt for Nederlands). But I guess that is inline with what I find reading this site for desis of other regions/colonies/diaspora as well.
Floridian wrote:
Um yeah, my experience too, with the “island people”–that is how some of them refer to themselves. My friend, whom I had dinner with last night, would not eat beef. Holy cow she explained. Then she asked me about Indian food having never tasted any “real Indian food”. I’ve advised her to invite herself and me 😉 over for dinner to an Indian family.
For some reason, I view diasporic Indians (19th century immigrants) and expat Sri Lankans the same. The differ from IBDs (and ABDs) in similar sorts of ways. Influences such as climate, colonization, their Indian culture and their common inherited prejudices have resulted in their different cultures evolving in similar sorts of ways.
Thanks Floridian for giving the folks here at sepia a look into Trinidad desiness. I am Trini but I learnt a lot from your contribution here also! I am always interested to learn how different people perceive trinis – in general, not just trinidadian desis.
I agree that trinis do not always appreciate indian food, i am definitely one of them. My very first adjustment to UK life was to place the term ‘Indian cuisine’ in context. It is deceptive! I’ve avoided Indian restaurants (from various regions) since my first experience here a year ago. And i am not the only one – American desis, malaysians, other caribbean people, and one person from Singapore have told me they avoid it as well. All for the same reason – it does not taste Indian. We know full well that this assessment comes from our own experience of Indianness.
Regarding religious conservativism, i am not sure how to approach that. At least in certain respects. Here (it may be different in the US) i have felt that with regard to gender and caste particularly trinis are far less conservative. I don’t know whether our rituals are conservative since it is all i know. The differences i have observed have just been differences for me so far. Not more or less conservative.
I think that maybe inter-ethnic marriages are being accepted much more than in the past. I gathered from your post that your Trini family has at least three. Thats interesting in itself. I’d also argue (though i lack any real evidence) that there are proportionately more indian-african marriages in Trinidad than in many other places. There is an interesting paper on the subject by Dr. Sheila Rampersad who did her PhD thesis on douglarization in Trinidad and Tobago. I vaguely remember something about a belief that black men treat indian women better than indian men which i think is part of this paper. Of course, as you say, it is not always accepted but i suppose in certain parts of trinidad and in certain families it is either more or less accepted. Trinidadian Indian-Chinese friends of mine also testify to other mixing in Trinidad. In a country where 20% of the population identifies itself as mixed (it is the only ethnic group that grew between the 1991 and 2001 census, both the Indian and African groups decreased) i think that views on interracial marriage may be changing.
Sorry…i think i rambled as well – ‘the heart has its reasons’….and considerably off-topic. If i don’t see this post tomorrow, i’ll understand…
Nandini, what you’ve tasted as “Indian food” in the UK is a standardised invented cuisine for the tastebuds of English people. It doesn’t bear much resemblance to what Indians in the UK eat at home. Best thing to do is get yourself to proper Indian restaurants in areas where a lot of Indians live like Wembley in north London, in Southall, Tooting and try the authentic stuff there. Or just make friends with an Indian and get yourself invited to their house for dinner!
#19 Nandini: “I think that maybe inter-ethnic marriages are being accepted much more than in the past.”
That is inevitable, and not just in Trinidad but everywhere. To reinforce your point, Trinidad Indians have a lower resistance to Indian-Chinese and Indian-mixed-partner marriages than to Indian-black. So the crazy Reverend Wright is not totally off base. Sorry, another post.
Hindutva sponsored initiatives are on the rise in Trinidad. Though not political as in India, the little Hindu schools and cultural centers are teaching thousands of Trinidad Hindus to wear their Hindu Pride on their sleeves. Have you gone to a place called Diwali Nagar in Trinidad? Incidentally, and I do mean that, one of the biggest Hindu leaders in Trinidad is my brother-in-law (the husband of my wife’s older sister).
I will be savoring this thread when I arrive in Trinidad this Saturday. My first stop will be Debe Junction for some down-home Trini Indian food. My next stop will be Maracas Bay for shark and bake.
I realize, Amardeep, that your post was about Suriname, not Trinidad/Guyana. Serendipity, thy name is Sepia.
Bobby, thanks for the suggestions. I’ll see what i can do to get myself and some other non-believers to restaurants in these places to try things out…though i would ideally prefer an aunty-ji like floridian’s here…any takers out there?
floridian, yes i have been to the Diwali Nagar site – numerous times since it is actually just a stone’s throw away from my home. I enjoy the activities there a lot but my favourite (i guess you can call them indo-cultural spots) are the Temple in the Sea and Dattatreya Yoga Centre. I am all for expressing pride in being hindu – especially in a country such as Trinidad – but i don’t know that this should go hand in hand with wiping out the other core features that make-up the trinidad hindu.
Lord! Wat ah wudn’t do fuh some hot Debe aloo pie, pholourie and saheena rite now. Better yet, wat ah wudn’t do fuh just a small pack ah chief curry powder!!
Nandini, are there no Trini restaurants in London, maybe down in South London, Brixton side, where there’s a large Jamaican and Carribean community?
Nandini, google is your friend. You won’t have to starve any longer.
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Unfortunately, there aren’t any fully Trinidadian restaurants in London but you can find very good Trinidadian roti in London. One of the most popular dishes in Trinidad and Tobago, roti is usually served like a wrap, with fillings such as curried potatoes, channa (chickpeas), meat or seafood. The most commonly eaten roti is the dhalpourie roti, which is stuffed with ground dhal, or split peas.
Roti-making is highly skilled, and one of the best places to see the artisans at work is at the Roti Joupa (12 Clapham High St, SW4 7UT; 020 7627 8637). This takeaway has only been in existence for five years, but in that short time, owner Vash Mathura and his team have raised the bar for Trinidadian roti in London. Mathura, who comes from Debe in south Trinidad, where there’s a huge Indo-Trinidadian community, has roti-making in his blood. He learned his craft from older relatives, particularly his grandmother who also owned a roti shop for many years.
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I need to find one of these indian island girls to marry. God bless the caribbean
Thank you enlightening posts on Trinidad and the article, which was very recognizable for me. My parents were both born in Surinam and migrated to the Netherlands about 35 years ago (before Independence in 1975).My mother, born in a very conservative family, can hardly speak Sranan. Although her own parents were fluent in Sranan and Javanese, they saw Sranan as the ‘slave language’ and thought it was too degraded to learn to their childeren. My father on the other hand, born in the city center of Paramaribo spoke Sranan far better than ‘Sarnami’. I think this may have changed and less Surinamese-Hindustani stigmatize Sranan this way.
#6 my_dog_jagat: “It’s Surinamese in English and Surinami in Hindi, no? Or are they actually called Surinami by the Dutch?”
In Dutch the 145.00 people of Surinam with Indian roots are called: ‘Hindoestanen’ (Hindustani). Their dialect is called Sarnami as well as Sranami – a term that was coined in the 1960’s. However, for most people I need to explain the Surinamese part. Most Dutch associate Surinam with the Creole populations and are unaware of the Indian, Javanese and Chinese migration. Questions I often get are: “So where does your family live in India” and “Are you married-off yet”?
7 tamasha:
“I think it’s interesting that you, Amardeep, refer to the desis in Suriname as descendants of 19th century “indentured laborers,” while the Times calls them “immigrants.” Hmm…” We are, without a doubt ‘descendants of 19th century labourers‘. In a way, it is a humble way to end up at the other end of the world…
17 Grappig-Indiaas-Man:
“I knew a half-Suriname-Hindustaan half Dutch (as in white) girl but she felt for India more than towards Suriname (outside of that felt for Nederlands).” Recently I visited a meeting about Surinamese-Hindustani immigration, where some writers from Surinam spoke. They complained about the new tendency to relate to India and forget Surinam. It may be a result of the economic boom, the influence of Indian cinema or the fact that ‘pure’ Indian culture was always esteemed greatly. As a result ‘new’ voices in writing and painting from Surinam are overlooked.
21 Floridian:
“That is inevitable, and not just in Trinidad but everywhere. To reinforce your point, Trinidad Indians have a lower resistance to Indian-Chinese and Indian-mixed-partner marriages than to Indian-black.” This goes for Surinam as well. In fact, it was a subtheme of the first ever Surinamese film made after Indepence: Wan Pipel (One people). As far as I can see a Creole-Hindustani relationship is still regarded a taboo here in Holland.
~dp: That is weird. In my experience browns are almost always related to Surinam, creoles to the Dutch Antilles. I’ve had people ask whether my ancestors emigrated from Surinam or whether I was actually from India.
Bobby, dude you are like 10 saltfish!!!! (that link you posted from should tell you that that’s a good thing!) Thanks a whole lot! I needed this! English food tastes very bland to someone used to well-seasoned, eye waterin, nose runnin, ears smokin spicy food. To uncle Mathura’s and Shepherd’s Bush Market Jeeves!………or Mr. Train…Driver…Man…
of course the most (in)famous surinam people of the past years are the two brothers who drove that poor white girl to the beach in aruba.
VS Naipaul has an essay about talkie talkie in an old book. It’s a weird thing, how these bush negroes (which is what they insist on being called) took a weird english into the backcountry and kept it while the rest of the nation turned dutch in the trade for new york. Naipaul is at times kind of condescending (asks them to translate wordsworth poem into talkie talkie, which they do to his satisfaction)but mostly just wonders what the point is of having an official language in an insignificant country which nobody in any other country speaks.
— In boston, LC’s roti shop II at Bowdoin street is probably the best, though it’s very small and not always open. But then again, all food in boston is terrible, especially the colored people foods.
No. The most famous Surinam people are people like Clarence Seedorf and Ryan Babel, and other great, world famous and successful soccer players.
Nandini:
Hmmm, there goes another stereotype (assuming this is true). Sounds similar to what some white men say about east and southeast asian women: that they want to marry whites because they treat them better than their own men. BTW, at least two afro- caribbean world famous cricketers have had flings with Bollywood stars: Gary Sobers got engaged to Anju Mahendru during a cricket tour of India and Viv Richards had a child with Neena Gupta. I have read that when the West Indies goes on a cricket tour to Sri Lanka their players are swamped by local female groupies.
Indian inter-marriage rates are probably the lowest of any race in the world whether it is in the caribbean, the pacific islands, africa or europe. In the UK for example, afro-caribbeans intermarry heavily with the native whites and to a lesser extent so do immigrants from Africa. But south asians have miniscule inter-marriage rates.
In the caribbean it seems that the chinese have much higher intermarriage rates with afro-caribbeans than do indians.
Well I’ve heard the same stereotype and sentiment expressed by black women about why they prefer to date white men, because, apparently, they treat them better than black men do. Either the grass is always greener on the other side, or people are just full of stereotypes and inter racial relationships are fraught with generalisations.
I wonder if other non-caribbean desis have experienced this before. For some reason, many people (including afro/indo-caribbeans) often assume I am from the caribbean, though I’m actually from India. I gave some money to a homeless woman during my evening commute a few days ago, and even she assumed I was Trini. I haven’t quite figured out what it is that makes me appear Caribbean, but I can be sure it doesn’t involve the rather shameful spectacles in which I’ve engaged with soca blasting out of the speakers…
I was at a literature conference on caribbean identity a couple of years back. During the break after a talk on creolization and douglarization a few of us began chatting. An indo-trinidadian woman maybe 30 years my senior told me that her mother advised her and her sisters when they were young not to marry an indian, and that none of her siblings (she is 4th child of 6) are presently married to indians. This is significant because her mother would have said this at a VERY different time from what we are living. But it wasn’t her mother’s warning that led her to her husband, she said that the legacy of domestic violence and alcoholism that were her experience of Indian men naturally attracted her to different men. She was never attracted to an indian man. Interestingly, only one of her own children was dating an indian – her son. Maybe it is the perception (as bobby says) that the grass will definitely be greener on the other side, or maybe it is that your past experience will frame how you experience the world. I like the latter idea because its based on individual experiences rather than group stereotypes. Not all indian men are violent alcoholics and not all non-indian men aren’t.
Well, as an Indian man I’m just wary of being stereotyped as a violent alcoholic! It makes me wince.
I also get wary when people stereotype Indian women as either gold-digging superficial materialistic neurotic bitches, as some Indian guys do, or as submissive docile dusky exotic maidservants, as I’ve seen white and black men do. I just wonder why and where people get off stereotyping like that. It makes me feel icky to be honest. And I don’t like it when black men are stereotyped as feckless, violent and irresponsible ‘baby fathers’, or black women are stereotyped as feisty sexually manic wild-childs. I wonder what we bring to ourselves in terms of self-loathing when we indulge in this kind of thing. I notice that about the only group that doesn’t indulge in this phenomenon are white people themselves. A bad relationship with a white man or woman doesn’t lead to white men and women saying ‘I’m never dating another white boy / girl again!’
Maybe it’s just a condition of being a minority.
Anyway, Nandini, I’ve just ordered this book, looking forward to reading it, looks great.
Mobilizing India: Women, Music, and Migration between India and Trinidad
Culture through food: Here is a lovely foodblog from Guyanese: http://www.tasteslikehome.org/
I stand behind my assertion that Indo-Caribs are more laid back than DBDs simply because of Afro-Carib cultural influence.
Ya just cyan’t carry on with anal-retentiveness around black folk for too long! LOL.
This is a more general one in that I am married to a lovely Surinamese woman. We are based in London but she feels isolated and even though there are alot of Dutch people she would reaaly like to meet other Surinamese Hindu’s in London. If anyone out there knows of anyone or you are based in London please let me know as it would be great for my wife to meet up and make some new friends.
Also are there any Surinamese restaurants in London. We have every cuisine under the sun but yet to see a Surinamese!
Parag
Hi, Does anyone know of private education institutes in Suriname? I couldn’t find a single one on the internet.
It is intersting to interact with the surinami Indians.I have a very old friend from Netherlands.We got introduced as penpals long back ,alomost thirty three years ago and have had a very tumultuous affairs but never the less we remained very much in touch with each other. after thirty years of our friendship, we finally met three years back. I visited her in Netherlands-Den Hague.It was a very sentimental visit. Her whole family knew me. they had great celeberation for me. Sarnami Indian are very warm, affectionate and great hosts.I lived with them for ten days pampered by the affection ,care and attention showred upon me.My friend’s husband , her both children took very special care of me. I enjoyed listening their sarnami-similar to Bihari Bhojpuri dialect and get very nostalgic about the visit and wish to be with them again and again. Viren. India.