Via 3 Quarks Daily, I read a profile of Noon Meem Danish, an Urdu-speaking poet from Karachi who is of African descent. The author of the piece, Asif Farrukhi, makes reference initially to some places I hadn’t heard of:
Whether you think of Lyari as Karachi’s Harlem or Harlem as a Lyari in New York, for Noon Meem Danish places provide a context but not a definition. ‘I am what I am’; he explains his signature with a characteristic mixture of pride and humility. Off-beat and defiant, he was a familiar figure in the literary landscape of the ’70s and ’80s. His poems expressing solidarity with the Negritude and the plight of blacks all over the world were referred to in Dr Firoze Ahmed’s social topography of the African-descent inhabitants of Pakistan. Karachi’s poet Noon Meem Danish now makes his home in the New York state of mind, and feels that he is very much in his element there. (link)
Lyari, one learns, is a town in/near Karachi where many of Karachi’s Africans (an estimated 500,000 of them) live. Their ancestors came to Balochistan as slaves via Arab traders (Noon Meem Danish defines himself ethnically as “Baloch,” which was confusing to me until I made the connection).
The Afro-Pakistani community, perhaps not surprisingly, hasn’t been treated particularly well, according to this essay in SAMAR magazine (skip down towards the end for some disturbing references to the extra-judicial killing of African youths). It’s not surprising that Noon Meem Danish, given his penchant for poetry, would consider leaving.
Danish is pretty forthright about the difference in how he is perceived in Karachi vs. New York:
More than home, Karachi was for him the city of the torment of recognition. ‘I was black and in Karachi it was always a shocking experience when people would ask me where I came from. They would ask how come you are speaking saaf Urdu. I had to explain myself each time.’
Karachi University wouldn’t hire him, but NYU did, and now he teaches at the University of Maryland (in the foreign language department — teaching Urdu, I presume). It’s interesting to think of someone of African descent emigrating to the U.S. because it’s less racist than the place where he grew up, but there you have it.
You can see Noon Meem Danish reciting at a Mushaira on YouTube (he’s at about 2:30 2:10).
Makes me glad I don’t cut my hair!
Akshay, please stick around!
I think this story is interesting, and it reminded me of my interactions with Kenyans/Ugandans who had gone to India/Pakistan for university and returned to their countries of origin. They said that they often felt isolated, and it took some time before social barriers started to fall away. Even when they spoke fluent Urdu/Hindi/Punjabi, they had a difficult time explaining to people how their experience and presence was possible. The questions they were asked were actually really similar to the questions I’ve heard people who have never met someone of another ethnic/racial/color background.I actually found that it made them very sympathetic to issues of racism in the U.S. in a much different way than others. I wonder what this says about broader issues of inclusion and kindness in the des(es)?
I’ve heard people say that too, about ‘government funds.’ & I realize you’re being kind of tongue-in-cheek, but some desi business owners do give a shit about what the area black folks think. They’re friendly with customers, they make local business contacts, etc. I just don’t think desi business owners are as evil and racist as some people would like to make them out to be.
I agree. I think a lot of the hostility is out of resentment for the ‘other’.
I don’t think it is hate all,I know I hate it when I walk in a store and get followed around and get treated like crap,that is one of the reasons I don’t shop at mom and pop stores. But you know that black people can be business owners also. Most of these store owners talk to black people like they are lower class citizens yet they are getting money from them if they don’t like black people so much and think they are being hated on go set up in a white neighborhood. I bet if I opened up a store in a “Brown” neighborhood and treated the customers like crap it would not last long before I would be thrown out. Let me get back on topic I have not really heard about too many people of African descent in Pakistan, I mist do some more digging on that.
Oh dear Lord… I sounded that bad? lol. Should watch my words and quit the ” right. 😉
razib, anyone looking down on the swedes or icelanders for being too kala?
Jellyfish and this gal who made the mistake of falling asleep in a vat of “Fair & Lovely”
who said it was. their members are generally poor, ie economically disenfranchised. by whom? i’d say by themselves and their lack of proper values. others may say the capitalistic superstructure. but no one said institutional racism.
it’ll take some googling but if you recall you defined institutional racism around the concept of power. i asked how this works in today’s context where the kkk is mostly powerless and shunned by respectable society and asked if they could therefore be considered racist. and i recall you answering no, which i took as an honest attempt at philosophical consistency.
but i notice you’re not exactly denying it now, so why don’t you just clarify yourself while i pull the quote?
i asked how this works in today’s context where the kkk is mostly powerless and shunned by respectable society and asked if they could therefore be considered racist
First of all, thats a caricature of the KKK. the KKK isn’t just a bunch of redneck hicks in shooting ranges.
For example, I’d consider david duke a member of the KKK.
Secondly, I don’t remember the particulars, but their behavior isn’t necessarily institutionally racist, rather just plain ol’ traditional, paleo-racism.
And who’s to say they are powerless over the people they exert their racist ideologies on. Lets says some small town in Iowa has KKK legacy, they own all the conveneince stores or barns or whatever the hell is down there. Lets say some black people need jobs, the powerless and “shunned by respectable society” KKK has institutional power, relatively speaking. Sure, Oprah can still campaign for obama, but this doesn’t preclude the KKK from having some kind of relative institutional power.
but I’ll say this is probably a very rare case, that doesn’t take away from a deep seated racist ideology (that was at one point rooted in institutional power)
Most of these store owners talk to black people like they are lower class citizens yet they are getting money from them if they don’t like black people so much and think they are being hated on go set up in a white neighborhood.
Why should they leave? They have a right to open those businesses. Nobody is stopping Blacks, Whites or anybody else from competing with them. They work hard, save their money and multiply their stores. Thats the American way. You can either emulate their success and work ethics, start saving, build up your credit and open your own store or spend your life hating on them. They are here to stay and not going anywhere.
which i took as an honest attempt at philosophical consistency
I know of no other way. I’m not versed in the art of misrepresentation as well as some others.
but if the kkk can’t be considered racist, it just goes to show how meaningless this argument is
No, it just shows how meaningless clinging to a narrow 3rd grade definition of racism as a white pointy hood and absolutely nothing else, is, given wide disparities that transgress the most basic institutions society is built on (job/school/living/etc..) this is to pre-empt any bs reponse of the sort, “well YEA but look at the NBA!”
ergo, my use of the word “mostly”
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exactly. which is why blacks can be racist. everyone has the power to kill another. power and privilege is very dynamic. many racist groups, take the Nazis, represented the disenfranchised only to find themselves in power. al-quada can simultaneously be seen as a group representing those who suffer from western hegemony and colonialism and those who benefit from a powerful religious bigotry and apartheid that rules entire nations.
i agree with this paragraph of yours, which is why i think the institutional/private racism distinction is a distinction w/o a difference.
i have no idea what you’re talking about. who defined raisma s “white pointy hood and absolutoely notheing else” ? strawman?
HMF, you tend to get all excited about strawman arguments in your own head that you attribute to others. on this very thread, you argue that institutional racism is not causing the kkk’s disenfranchisement when no one said it was. then you complain the KKK is caricatured as poor, or as you state hysterically “redneck hicks in shooting ranges” when no one said they’re all poor. finally, you try to discredit the “3rd grade definition of racism as a white pointy hood and absolutely nothing else” when no one defined it as such.
and of course you repeatedly complain about being misrepresented, in this case about saying the kkk are not (insttiutionally) racist but then conceded “their behavior isn’t necessarily institutionally racist.”
i get what you’re saying. you add a qualifier with “necessary” so I’ll leave it to others to decide if i misrepresented you, but i don’t necessarily disagree with what your saying, especially the part where the kkk sites in fact benefit from structural racism and that they do in fact have power, as we all do, which is why we can all be racist, institutional or otherwise.
@60 You are missing my point I am saying if they are having a hard time with these so called haterade black folks they should shop their wares elsewhere,I don’t shop anywhere I am not wanted so they will never see my business, they can be black,white or whatever you treat me wrong in your store I am out. They can make all the money they want not hating that at all and I am sure most blacks are not, I just hate broad generalizations.
Agreed. The US is a country where ANYBODY can make money if they make the effort.
Too many people here, black, white, whatever, are genuinely lazy and do not want to put in the time and energy it requires to build up a career or business. They would rather live off of welfare and do some sort of “hustle” on the downlow. This is the story of all the metropolitian ghettos. There are some neighborhoods in this country where virtually every house has been on welfare for several generations. Several generations people!
then you complain the KKK is caricatured as poor, or as you state hysterically “redneck hicks in shooting ranges”
That was your implication when you said “represent disenfranchised working class whites”
finally, you try to discredit the “3rd grade definition of racism as a white pointy hood and absolutely nothing else” when no one defined it as such.
When you denigrate or attempt to discredit the existence of white privilege today, and downplay institutional racism by asking whether the KKK has access to it (sort of like asking if black midgets are in the NBA, no? therefore black people don’t have an advantage in the mba), all thats left is assuming racism is something of the past, represented by the white pointy hood and nothing else (ie the dinesh dsouza bullshit)
as we all do
In the US, we all do, but within a white superiority framework.
exactly. which is why blacks can be racist. everyone has the power to kill another. power and privilege is very dynamic.
blacks cannot be institutionally racist, you pointing out your single examples doesn’t amount to “institutional power” it marks the pointed transgressions of the rule, thereby proving the rule correct.
advantage in the mba,
nba, but I’ll let you have at it with the freudian slip jokes.
Your primary assumption/statement, and the following inferences, are patently untrue. I’m not saying that the underground economy doesn’t exist or that it isn’t an “attractive” alternative, but it is naive, at best, to think that “anybody can make money if they make the effort” in the U.S.
Only desis who were brought to the USA specifically to be a pliable PoC minority group can progress to the middle class. Read the “Karma of Brown Folk”, it is the bestest book of the 20th century. Desis play carrom all day and are fed by the munificent Kamadhenu. They did not pull themselves up by their own chappal straps, it was divine intervention. Oh Kamadhenu grant me a boon, my friends all drive Porsches I must make amends
I understand, but isn’t it reasonable to assume that, to a certain point, one can’t know what jobs are available/feasible unless one applies for it? I’m thinking about someone who’s been working 40-plus hour weeks in low-paid, service economy jobs (thus the effort question is mostly answered); what if that individual could acquire a higher-paying job but doesn’t do so because they’re busy working hard at the lower-paying one? How much of the difference between individuals holding high and low-paying jobs has to do with them not just working hard but also ‘smart’ (yes i’m taking social capital, education and childhood into account but trying to see how far the brute effort v. smart effort can go in explaining the disparity)? I’m not trying to go all McArdle on this but we’re down to ‘reasonable assumptions’ here so I thought i’d ask.
Razib I believe you are referring to Andrew Symonds – he is not indigenous. He is English / Caribbean / Australian.
For an Australian cricketer to complain about crowd taunting is ridiculous. It is a feature (not a bug)of australian sport to hurl abuse at the opposing teams.
you got “redneck hicks in shooting ranges” from that? strawman again. in any case, they are mostly working class, though some are not. you’re the only person who caricatured them. we actually agree. this seemingly powerless grouyp of outcasts still has tremendous power to hurt. which was my point.
by asking if the kkk is institutionally racist you got by implication that racism is a thing of the past? my positions that the kkk is racist, and their alleged lack of power is irrelevant to the question. strawman again, fighting assertions no one made.
sure, i get it. context and power matters. in this framework, blacks can’t be racist, palestinians in israel can’t be anti-semitic and hindus can’t be islamophobes in malaysia. but American blacks can still discriminate in the business’ they own, palestinian suicide bombers can get financing from Iran, and if malaysian Hindus were so inclined, i guess they could get some bombs from the ltte.
power shifts quickly.
why is it untrue. He said ‘making money’ – depends on how you define ‘making money’. Are we talking about stable middle class employment or rich like the Gates? Stable middle class employment is certainly feasible – no matter how disadvantaged one is. How hard is it to making a living wage as a plumber?
Camille @ 52: Thank you for the kind words 🙂 I have lurked for a while, and enjoy your comments!
Work Eat, No Work, No Eat @ 67: “Agreed. The US is a country where ANYBODY can make money if they make the effort.”
I’m sorry, but this is completely untrue. This country has never operated that way; just take a look at any time in American history. I personally know impoverished Mexican workers here in NYC who have 3 jobs, no time for anything else, and who have worked like this for over a decade, but haven’t and will probably never rise out of their economic bracket. If you’d like to see statistics on why several groups of people of various categories do not have easy access, if any, to this ideal path of success, I’m sure various people here, including myself, would be happy to provide.
“They would rather live off of welfare and do some sort of “hustle” on the downlow. This is the story of all the metropolitian ghettos.”
The story of all metropolitan ghettos? Any such generalization is unsubstantiated and unwarranted, and it is simply not the case that laziness is the primary factor. I wonder, how much knowledge and experience do you have of the operations of social and economic power in American history?
Manju @ 63: “blacks can be racist. everyone has the power to kill another. power and privilege is very dynamic. many racist groups, take the Nazis, represented the disenfranchised only to find themselves in power. al-quada can simultaneously be seen as a group representing those who suffer from western hegemony and colonialism and those who benefit from a powerful religious bigotry and apartheid that rules entire nations.”
Foreign groups cannot be discussed in terms of the institutional racism we are talking about in America, so those are no evidence for any side in this discussion. While power and privilege are dynamic, no group can contribute to the American social Imaginary and material reality the way white people can, but HMF is explaining this, so I guess I’ll try and keep my nose out of this one.
Look, becoming middle class means stealing the White Man’s Magic (i.e. math, science). But that means “acting white”. So the choice is to remain authentic and poor living off poetry slam winnings or sell out
maybe they would be better off keeping two jobs and spending the time on the 3rd studying ? Or maybe they are working so hard so that their children can go to college? Will their children also remain poverty stricken? Also your said Mexican chose to leave Mexico and come to USA – obviously prospects in the USA is better than what is available back home!!
I think far too many apologists for poverty. Yes being poor is painful (I know from personal experience) but telling poor people that others are to blame for their poverty is ridiculous. No one is to blame – it is life. You are looking for excuses why people cant break the poverty cycle rather than focusing on how people can break the poverty cycle. Is this any different from communist propaganda blaming the Bourgieoise.
The biggest troublemaker for a poor person is a do-gooder motivated by altruism.
Well, even though I’m a libertarian myself, just to be fair there’s a pretty well-developed argument (on the other side) that people are entitled to live in a system that produces less poverty. See, e.g., Thomas Pogge, ed., Freedom from Poverty as a Human Right: Who Owes What to the Very Poor?
The narrative of “if you work hard you will make money” completely ignores how our economic policies, domestic and international, both enable and perpetuate poverty. When I hear this comment, I honestly wonder how many people who say this a) grew up poor/lower-class, and/or b) grew up in poor neighborhoods. With that I add the caveat that I do not think a slide from a wealthy to poor to wealthy background qualifies as a “poor/lower class” background.
I have known dozens of hard-working, amazing, intelligent people who work several jobs (on the order of 80+ hours/week) to make ends meet, often with no support and no security net. They were not stupid, nor were they “working dumb;” oftentimes external factors — including health insurance costs, rising costs of living, the high cost of child care, lack of access to credit/equity/property/financial education –, compounded their tenuous hold on a lower middle-class or working class lifestyle, forcing families to choose between basic needs or bankruptcy. There are serious and widespread issues that are both ignored and subsumed under a rhetoric, much like that provided above, that argues that the poor are lazy, indolent, and ignorant. I sincerely feel that people should be able to live in a world where decent, hard-work provides for basic needs and a moderately comfortable standard of living. In many parts of the country the real cost of living has increased substantially while the real minimum wage is now far below its 1972 levels. The bootstraps-myth is a way of ignoring the growing class inequality in this country as well as ignoring the plight of poor, working class (or working class eligible) Americans.
Oh, I also want to add that as a political economist I can’t help but point to the fact that there is a theoretical assumption behind the “that is life” comment that poverty is a) natural and b) inevitable. I don’t believe that either are true, but significant and equitable change would require both an acknowledgment of the problem at hand and a reconceptualization of what is “natural” to even begin to make appreciable corrections. There are political theories and remedies that assume that poverty is UNNATURAL, and among those philosophers is Adam Smith.
didn’t smith believe wealth was unnatural, Camille, ie he learned form locke that poverty was the state of nature and form Hobbes that life was naturally nasty, brutish, and short. so one must never ask, he said, why someone is poor since this is natural, only why someone is rich…since this takes effort.
camille, is this really a problem in the US, at least in comparison to other countries. there has been something of a credit revolution going on for the last few decades in the US and the rise of various financial institutions, like primerica, offering financial services to the working class. not to mention the explosion of mutual-funds, index funds, discount brokerage, and online brokers that offer a cheap way for people to get into the market
this just seems so counter-intuiotve with so many illegals coming across the border. anecdotally, assuming one has strong family support and works hard, getting ahead in America is more than doable. the people who fall thru the cracks look to me like alcoholic loners. it’s hard to make it alone, i’d concede that.
are you saying that the current US system is biased towards creating more poverty. I would argue the opposite.
Possibly achievable if there is legal reallocation of wealth. That is pretty close to the communist dream.
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No, no–just saying that, in principle, the poor might have some claim to a different system. But, as we see with China over the past 15 years, markets seem like the best drag-people-out-of-poverty system ever invented!!
I hope he didn’t get attacked for those cartoons of the prophet.
Manju, access to credit is a huge problem, particularly in poor communities. The presence of online brokers, and other typical credit-lenders, a la payday lenders, is often nothing short of usurious and predatory lending. Oftentimes these credit systems are NOT designed to spread financial access and pull more people into the system, but rather to turn a quick buck at the expense of a group who will likely continue to go unbanked. The current subprime mortgage debacle is a great example of non-well-intentioned, unsustainable, and irresponsible lending (coupled with a general lack of financial familiarity with terminology and processes on the part of borrowers). Additionally, it is often harder to bank poor communities (a la microcredit) than in developing countries because of both infrastructural and protocol/regulatory limitations.
I actually don’t think Smith was as bleak as you describe. He did assume that there would be “winners and losers” in a natural state of things, but that gross wealth was both unnatural and immoral. The concept of the “trickle down” economy functions in the context of heavy wealth redistribution.
And to your last point re: “illegals,” there are plenty of hardworking undocumented migrants who ALSO do not make it out of poverty. That said, I do think we have to measure domestic vs. migrant poverty in different ways. While not exclusively the case, in the current immigration scheme folks often do have access to some resources (e.g., family or community networks, enough wealth and/or education to come into the U.S.), whereas many working class and below working class poor do not have these same support options. With respect to domestic poverty, I think it’s important to examine it in the context of a failing public education system and a hyper-aggressive prison industrial complex as well. These elements work in concert, not against one another.
Is this a sincere reflection, or a misrepresentation of my point? I just don’t want to misread the tone. You can call it a close reflection of whatever one likes, but I think it’s a pretty close reflection of the American dream, particularly in the context of the mythology we’ve built around ideas of the Pilgrim’s Progress. I personally think it’s possible for capitalism to work successfully and effectively WITHOUT creating poverty; however, without any controls (whether through regulation/incentives or through consumer and investor behavior/consciousness) any system can be used to exacerbate suffering.
but American blacks can still discriminate in the business’ they own
this amounts to a pebble being thrown at an elephant, causing it to move a micron. it’s not “power shifting”
by asking if the kkk is institutionally racist you got by implication that racism is a thing of the past? my positions that the kkk is racist, and their alleged lack of power is irrelevant to the question
I agree with you, they are racist, just not institutionally (apart from the small scale). Indeed, it was the KKK’s ideology demise that brought about this new turret of institutional racism, as racists needed a more subtle and less visible way to practice their craft.
yet you in the message #15 state that I claim is the KKK is not racist (either ideologically or institutionally)
this seemingly powerless grouyp of outcasts still has tremendous power to hurt. which was my point.
This is common sense.
A half-human half dog, transexual, serbo-croate but chilean born, neo-nazi, blind midget (who clearly represents a small, outcasted tiny fraction of the population – with no institutional power) can walk into a crowded room and mow it down with a machine gun – causing a lot of harm.
This still doesn’t negate the existence of institutional racism, and white privilege. Which I can only imagine is your ultimate point, but perhaps not?
Secondly the KKK are outcasts because of beliefs they hold (and therefore deemed unrepresentative of white america at large – hence the coexistence of ideological, KKK racism vs the more common institutional kind).
To Campmuir#23: I also hate the word “k***” and I personally never use it to refer to African Americans. However, I was just quoting other people using it and it is similar to the n word. I won’t even spell it out from now on! Sorry if it caused any hurt feelings.
To Post (Melbourne Desi)#24: You pose a good question. Does money trump color?
27(Desi Munda):
Duh, of course Desis are people of color.
Desis are definitely not white even though some Desis would like to classify themselves as Caucasian. I am not sure which line in any of my posts indicates that South Asians are whites. Perhaps I should have written “Desis discriminate against OTHER people of color” to be more clear. Sometimes when I type in a hurry proper and clear grammar (and spelling) unintentionally get thrown out the window.
gm:
It’s not an issue of desis liking to classify themselves as Caucasian. The three race theory is bogus, but it was the White race theorists who devised it who put Indians in that bogus category. Even the Punju uncles I know who can “pass” say, for example, “My daughtger married a Caucasian” which implies that they don’t self classify as such. The confusion arose when many surveys in the 70s/80s that asked you to self classify had a checkbox that read something like this “Caucasian (European, North African/Midle Eastern, Indian subcontinent)”.
There are things that make me uneasy about how Indians & Asians relate to African-Americans, but some of you seem eager to claim more than our fair share of guilt.
this just seems so counter-intuiotve with so many illegals coming across the border. anecdotally, assuming one has strong family support and works hard, getting ahead in America is more than doable.
Its very doable compared to being in India and other 3rd world nations. However, economic mobility in the US is actually going down and its now easier to move across economic lines in France than in the US. If I remember correctly, the US is at the bottom of the Industrial Nations when it comes to economic mobility.
Manju, access to credit is a huge problem, particularly in poor communities. The presence of online brokers, and other typical credit-lenders, a la payday lenders, is often nothing short of usurious and predatory lending. Oftentimes these credit systems are NOT designed to spread financial access and pull more people into the system, but rather to turn a quick buck at the expense of a group who will likely continue to go unbanked.
Well put. Also the majority of poor people get their monies from Pay Advance, Cash Advance which provide interest rates sometimes in excess of 100%. Its not exactly credit anyway, its mostly short term loans with double digit interest monthly interest rates.
The confusion arose when many surveys in the 70s/80s that asked you to self classify had a checkbox that read something like this “Caucasian (European, North African/Midle Eastern, Indian subcontinent)”.
Most federal classifications still include Arabs as white.
institutional racism according to my definition because the grocer and Vikram do not have the capacity to enforce their prejudice on a large enough scale, through culture, law, or anything else
I agree with this def’n. Not only that, even if a high ranking CEO of color wanted to practice “reverse institutional” discrimination, they couldn’t pull it off (assuming the company is in the US) because they’d be held accountable by the other members of the company who’d need to be complicit (hence providing the base of the ‘institution’)
To 96: Al_*******_for_debauchery, I’m curious what made you chose that handle ? That word (Ch***ya) is an extremely offensive word, and I just recoil in disgust every time I see it. I realise I have no right to comment on your choice of name and I apologise for doing so, I just wonder whether you might possibly not know exactly what it means ? Once again, I do not intend to offend you by this comment. Just voicing something I’ve been wanting to ask for a very long time now. 🙂 regards! pj
I’m curious what made you chose that handle ? That word (Ch***ya) is an extremely offensive word, and I just recoil in disgust every time I see it. I realise I have no right to comment on your choice of name and I apologise for doing so, I just wonder whether you might possibly not know exactly what it means ? Once again, I do not intend to offend you by this comment. Just voicing something I’ve been wanting to ask for a very long time now. 🙂 regards!
I just like the sound of it and its versatility of use. I dont think its that offensive. I am sorry if offended you as that was not the intention. Its getting old though and I am thinking of replacing it with either harami or pajama.
one vote for “harami”!