Via 3 Quarks Daily, I read a profile of Noon Meem Danish, an Urdu-speaking poet from Karachi who is of African descent. The author of the piece, Asif Farrukhi, makes reference initially to some places I hadn’t heard of:
Whether you think of Lyari as Karachi’s Harlem or Harlem as a Lyari in New York, for Noon Meem Danish places provide a context but not a definition. ‘I am what I am’; he explains his signature with a characteristic mixture of pride and humility. Off-beat and defiant, he was a familiar figure in the literary landscape of the ’70s and ’80s. His poems expressing solidarity with the Negritude and the plight of blacks all over the world were referred to in Dr Firoze Ahmed’s social topography of the African-descent inhabitants of Pakistan. Karachi’s poet Noon Meem Danish now makes his home in the New York state of mind, and feels that he is very much in his element there. (link)
Lyari, one learns, is a town in/near Karachi where many of Karachi’s Africans (an estimated 500,000 of them) live. Their ancestors came to Balochistan as slaves via Arab traders (Noon Meem Danish defines himself ethnically as “Baloch,” which was confusing to me until I made the connection).
The Afro-Pakistani community, perhaps not surprisingly, hasn’t been treated particularly well, according to this essay in SAMAR magazine (skip down towards the end for some disturbing references to the extra-judicial killing of African youths). It’s not surprising that Noon Meem Danish, given his penchant for poetry, would consider leaving.
Danish is pretty forthright about the difference in how he is perceived in Karachi vs. New York:
More than home, Karachi was for him the city of the torment of recognition. ‘I was black and in Karachi it was always a shocking experience when people would ask me where I came from. They would ask how come you are speaking saaf Urdu. I had to explain myself each time.’
Karachi University wouldn’t hire him, but NYU did, and now he teaches at the University of Maryland (in the foreign language department — teaching Urdu, I presume). It’s interesting to think of someone of African descent emigrating to the U.S. because it’s less racist than the place where he grew up, but there you have it.
You can see Noon Meem Danish reciting at a Mushaira on YouTube (he’s at about 2:30 2:10).
Amardeep, interesting post. I’m going to check out the rest of your links soon, but I looked at the youtube Mushaira first. He actually starts at 2:12. Not a nitpick – someone else starts exactly at 2:30 in the clip.
I ID’d him from this pic on this site.
Thanks, Chachaji — I fixed it. (Incidentally, one doesn’t necessarily need a pic; he’s hard to miss!)
A black Pakistani named Danish. That’s a 3-fer of cross-national confusion. Can you imagine the who’s on first routine you could build here?
I’m saying why does Lyari have to be like Harlem just because Danish is “black?”
Also, I saw 2 Urdu speaking South Asians at Kabab King in Jackson Heights that had features we associate with “Black” I wonder if they were Baluchi or Siddhis.
Somehow I am not surprised that this Afro Pakistani poet needed to emigrate to the US due to racism. He might have come to the States for economic and career opportunities and to seek a wider audience and so forth.
I have heard (only a few) North Indians speak of South Indians as short, dark, snub nosed, etc. One Desi Aunty type from the Northern region even had the nerve to say (in Hindi) that South Indians only know how to make yogurt rice and nothing else! I have also heard (only one but his view might be representative of more) Pakistani refer to (Asian) Indians in general are inferior in looks and intellect compared to Pakistanis. In my experience, I have heard only one Tamilian Uncle dude say that Northern Indians are “not really Indians” and Telegu people are good at eating gonkura only! (My Mom and I took offense to this since we also speak Telegu).
Again that was only case, but there may be more similar opinions like his in the southern regions of India.
On top of that, a few North and South Indians have expressed ugly views that are not favorable of African Americans and people originally from the African continent in general. I can easily say many Indians tend to poke fun and discriminate against each other and other darker members of the human race.
I think I might be opening a big can of worms here but I just wanted to share my observations.
Just a quick comment about gm’s comment…I’m African-American and used to teach high school. I had a couple of Indian parents who basically treated me like a servant. There is this impression in the AA community that Indians and Pakastanis think they’re white (i.e. better than us) and as a result, treat us badly. Many of the darker skinned ones don’t want to be lumped in the melting pot with AAs. Unfortunately, here in America, people are still judged by skin color no matter where you originate from.
I currently work with a number of Indians who respect me and what I can offer them (I tutor their children). I think we all need to stop judging each other and take the time to get to know one another. When I wished my students a Happy Diwali, they nearly fell off their chairs. I guess as an AA, I’m not supposed to know what Diwali is.
Unfortunately, this article doesn’t surprise me at all. Despite our knack for picking up on racism against desis, I’ve noticed an incredible amount of anti-black sentiment among the Indians and Pakistanis I’ve known. To this day I have to refrain from violence when I hear uncles and aunties worry about all the ‘kalus’ in my neighborhood.
TrevLove, while the rest of your comment is unfortunately true (in spirit) even in this day and age, the surprise for a Diwali greeting is not an AA-specific phenomenon. I’m pretty sure that anyone who didn’t look obviously South Asian would have got the same reaction with the same audience.
Gm, as I read that line, I was thinking that I could live on thayir sadam as long as I have gongura, and bang! Three lines later, I read about an attack on gongura. Sigh! Building ethnic slurs out of foods displays the tolerance of a bigot with the sophistication of a kindergarten food fight.
Amardeep, I find that Lyari is described as a “slum…where most people support Bhutto”, which suffered a bomb blast recently. Is this the same event described in Vinod’s post?
great name. if i didn’t know any better i’d asume he’s one of frank zappa’s kids. wonder if his poems rhyme.
Yes, Lyari is slum. Yes, it is to the Bhutto family what (I think) Amethi is to the Indian Gandhis — a family stronghold.
They treat their children badly too, when they marry African Americans. It’s pathetic.
I’m confused I thought only white people can be racist.
Can’t wait to see HMF blame racism against people of afro background in Pakistan by desi’s on whitey.
Clueless @ 13:
You are conflating what is sometimes referred to as personal racism with what is often called institutional or systemic racism. If we are talking about systemic racism in America, then yes, only white people can be ultimately responsible for them. If we are talking about individual racism/racial prejudice, then of course anyone can engage in it.
In the case of Pakistan, discrimination based on skin color has been around forever. This kind of prejudice would easily have occurred to anyone of African descent living there with no influence from any white power. That is not, however, to say that British colonization did not add anything to the mix or help legitimize and reinforce that discrimination, meaning there may yet be a way that the dreaded “white man” is involved. :p
akshay:
on this very thread, examples of indian-americans discriminating against blacks have been given. it wouldn’t take too much imagination to see how this could become systemic or intstutionalized, like the much-used example of korean grocers following blacks around or lets say vikram pandit not hiring blacks at citigroup (just hypothetical).
so this systemic vs personal stuff strikes me as a distinction without a difference, and this entire “blacks can’t be racist” argument-by-definition strikes me as an intentionally racially provocative slogan meant to further some ideological notion of white privilege.
i recall asking HMF many threads ago if the KKK, since they represent disenfranchised working class whites–could really be racist by this new definition. and he, quite honestly, answered “no.” and i think he was right by the very definition of institutional racism he was putting forth. but if the kkk can’t be considered racist, it just goes to show how meaningless this argument is.
Not all of the Africans of the subcontinent are necessarily descended from slaves. Many would have come as free soldiers and traders. With respect to his Baluch identity, it’s worth remembering that while the British were consolidating the Raj, much of Baluchistan and Makran, as well as Zanzibar and a large strip of the African coast were all territories of the Sultanate of Oman.
It’s odd, I think the (false) idea that European colonization had anything to do with S Asian color prejudice may be the only thing that the Left and the Hindu Right agree about. I am not interested in getting into this debate now, but Indians aspire to fair skin & Iranian looks because that is the phenotype associated with the Vedic cult that gained the greatest currency with the Indian ruling elites. The worker in the field associated the looks of the zamindar and the priest with privilige and social advancement, the Brit ICS officer they may have seen on occassion may as well have been a Martian.
The situation of the Siddhis must have been quite different in the feudal past. There were Siddhi lords and generals and I bet they would have been viewed as a desirable matrimonial match for the daughters of Indian Muslim upper classes. Maybe genetic analysis will show considerable matrilineal South & Central Asian DNA in the Siddhis
As per the charge of “acting white”, that accusation generally says more about the people who make it. Even reading on the subway has elicited that accusation against me. I’ll accept that desis have racist attitudes that must be examined and eliminated, but I think there are some self defeating attitudes in the African-American community about behaviors that are thought to be “white”
Manju,
you’re clearly out of line here. Please to be taking chill pills and calming down. Reason is not welcome in responses. You must coddle and nurture tautological premises like these until they become public policy.
Wasn’t the youtube clip itself in the US? Surrounded by fellow Urdu speakers, I certainly didn’t see any batteries or rotting vegetables being thrown at Danish.
And when you throw in the long-suffering leg-spinner and sole Hindu on the Pakistani cricket team, it could become an incredibly complex, “Who’s at slip? Who’s at second slip? What’s at long-on? Who’s at silly point? Who’s at fine leg?”
who accused you ? Desis or Blacks.
Why is this so outrageous. It is no different from the ‘toffs’ worried about the ‘riff raff’ entering their neighbourhoods. Or the Tam-Brahm mamis in Mambalam going ‘siva siva’ at the sight of the ‘chery’ modernizing. Right or wrong the said Aunties and Uncles have connected crime with ‘kalus’.
I was taunted this way by African-American youth
Manju @ 15:
It seems that HMF’s definition of systemic racism is a tad different from mine, so I will refrain from further comment on that poster’s intent.
It seems much of our difference is semantic. The definition of the term I employ , while intimately connected with personal prejudice (I admit the line is blurry in many places)at times, concerns biases rooted in institutions and structures, and intent is not always relevant to those instances. The Korean grocer and Vikram Pandit examples would not be institutional racism according to my definition because the grocer and Vikram do not have the capacity to enforce their prejudice on a large enough scale, through culture, law, or anything else (here you can see I am employing a sort of gradation/spectrum where I define something only of a certain magnitude as truly institutional racism). The grocery store and that one bank are not be the social institutions I have in mind, as they are too small, though they could represent specific outlets of said structures.
“this entire “blacks can’t be racist” argument-by-definition strikes me as an intentionally racially provocative slogan meant to further some ideological notion of white privilege.”
You are correct in noting the provocative nature of such declarations. When I use them myself, that is often exactly what I intend; not an offensive assault, but a call/provocation to analysis and discussion. Yes, it is in order to further the notion of white privilege, because after the hundreds of studies which I’ve compiled, collected, and analyzed together over the years, I cannot see white privilege as anything but a concrete, social reality. Of course, this is another case of very specific definitions. I prefer to use the term individual racism rather than just prejudice or bigotry, because that way I can call the KKK racist without an argument, although, perhaps in contrast to HMF, I do believe they benefit from structural privileges in everyday life.
AG @ 16 and Louiecypher @ 17:
My remark about a possible British influence on racial notions in Pakistan was not intended to propose the tangibility of such a connection; it was relatively lighthearted. I was thinking more that the British ideologies, which were certainly in currency throughout the Raj, could easily have made it to those specific areas even after Pakistan’s consolidation, although it would be foolish to assume that these ideas would be critical factors in the Pakistani treatment of African-descended people.
To Murali Mannered: You are correct when you say that the poet N.M. Danish looked like he was well received by the US/Pakistani/Urdu speakers audience. I did mention in my post (even though I don’t have any statistics – soley based on my unbiased observations) that most Desis/Pakistanis have racist views towards people of color like African Americans. At Desi gatherings (and many of my own relatives unfortunately) I often hear statements like , “Oh my daughter can marry anyone she wants as long as he is not a Kalu…” or “Kalus are lazy” etc. I feel like telling those idiots to cut the racist crap but I learned that trying to reason with people with irrational thoughts is like throwing stones at a mound of fertilizer. (That last line is borrowed from a Telugu saying, translated: “When you throw stones at a pile of crap, some of it might splatter back on you.)
I don’t know how well integrated the Pakistanis of African descent are in Pakistani society. Many times in the US, some Desis (American born and Indian born) do realize we are all human and all people of color are not criminals, etc. or at least they (Desis) won’t openly discriminate.
Is it just me or does anyone else cringe at the use of the word “kalu”? Perhaps because as far back as I can remember, I’ve always heard it in a negative context, preceded and/or followed by negative comments? I don’t like it at all.
This institutional stuff goes pretty deep. I’ve known many desis (my generation – second, that is) who have integrated well with american society and count african-americans as friends, colleagues, etc but at the end of the day would never marry one or approve of their sibling marrying one. complex stuff.
I’ve met several african-americans in the past few years who have freely offered their observation and understanding of the fact that desis can’t come home with a person of africa descent as a potential marriagee partner (this without any prodding or questioning or discussion of desi culture on my part).
even if he is an investment banker / neurosurgeon?
This is funny. My brother, also a 1.5 gen, has dated black women, and would be okay with me marrying a black man – but not a Muslim. 🙂 Which is very much an old world prejudice.
I think some of the resistance among 2nd gens doesn’t come just from their desi upbringing, but also from American culture at large, especially if they grew up in mostly white middle class/upper middle class neighborhoods and travel in mostly white circles as adults.
It’s not unique to desis, unfortunately. It’s true of many ethnic minorities in the US–Chinese, Koreans, Armenians, Arabs, etc. I think that for the most part, when people immigrate to the US, they want to achieve the “American Dream”, and they soon learn that that is difficult to do if you partner with African-Americans, so they try to distance themselves from them.
Personally speaking, I’ve had middle aged African-American men hit on me. One technique they oftentimes use is guilt-tripping. They would tell me about how African-Americans are disadvantaged in the US, and then try to gain my sympathy, and end the conversation with asking me out. That always turns me off, because I feel that technique is manipulative. I hate being guilt-tripped. I feel that I ought to be able to reject someone without being labelled a “racist”. I also feel sorry that African-American women get slighted in the dating/marriage game (and I therefore feel sympathy for them). I feel that many times African-American men choose white-American women over their own women, and that makes me feel uncomfortable–it seems almost like they are being racist towards their own women.
Those are just my feelings. This is sort of a tough conversation, because somehow I feel like I’m not allowed to express my true feelings on things like this.
This is frickin laughably delusional. Desis are “people of color” too didnt you know?
All I want to know is……..Where did ya’ll grow!?
up?
Only when it politically suits whoever is throwing the term around. 🙂
I think that for the most part, when people immigrate to the US, they want to achieve the “American Dream”, and they soon learn that that is difficult to do if you partner with African-Americans, so they try to distance themselves from them.
Really? Do people really think that? I know it’s hard to be a person of color in a predominantly caucasian country, but I still think there are opportunities for people if they work hard. I believe many of us are living examples of this fact and I can count my father as one such person.
It’s hardly the days of segregation or laws that banned intermarriage. The American Dream to me has always been about the underdog making it big – whether that underdog status had to do with race or socioeconomic status.
I think the aversion has to do with the concept of “otherness”, not feeling comfortable with that which is not familiar. Add to that our (meaning desi) screwed up views on color and we seem to come up with the compromise that otherness is okay if it’s asian or white but certainly not hispanic or black.
As far as the middle class topic (#25) i’ve found that some of my caucasian friends from this segment of society are perfectly okay with bringing home an educated profressional african american. don’t see that happening a lot in desi circles.
Oh, I got sidetracked from the main issue.
I wanted to add that I find it sad that Mr. Danish faced so many problems in Pakistan. I actually did not know that there were African populations in Pakistan until now. I feel that since these populations have existed for a long time (or a considerable amount of time), Pakistanis should be more accepting of these minority Balochis, especially since they are culturally desi/Pakistani.
Uh, what? There are lots of Makranis in Karachi and no one ever thinks it odd that they would speak Urdu.
To #26 you kidding right most African American men marry African Amerian women,so black woman are not getting slighted in the dating game. Well I think the you should wear a sign on you that says I don’t date AA’s lol. But trust on this I don’t think it is racist if you don’t date black people I mean I know I would not lose sleep over it.I live here in the DC area and I can’t tell I have seen a lot of Desi women with black men, Hell I am dating a Desi.
It looks like this black-desi relations needs A LOT more work in getting better. I hope it does. I had five or six desi roommates in college. I’ve seen black women date desi men and black men with desi women. What does it take to get these two groups to get along better?
Lets have a mixer
What does it take to get these two groups to get along better?
strange that he would say people get surprised when he speaks urdu. i’ve barely lived in pakistan yet have known about makranis since i was about 5. (ps. just like african americans, they’ve had quite an impact on sindhi music / culture)
i don’t doubt that they are economically repressed though but that goes for about 95% of of pakistan’s population as well
two issues
1) brown prejudice against blacks obviously predates the american exp. as alluded to above, it is pre-british too. the ethno-historical lit. i’ve seen suggests that many color words originated during the muslim period when the elite turco-persian rulers wanted to distinguish themselves from the “black” indigenous converts. there is probably some natural stratification due to the character of agriculture societies, where the masses tend to be exposed to more sunlight in the fields and so are darker. in any case, this leads to the conventionally darkest race getting crapped on (e.g., in the arab world indians are often the blacks. in nigeria the fulani are less black than the hausa and definitely the yoruba). this can be applied to a within brown context: some work on dalit consciousness suggests that groups in uttar pradesh were not comfortable aligning with south indian dalits, after all, they were aryans and south indian dalits were the lowest of the low (not only were they dalits, they were dravidian south indians!). the punjabis look down on the bengalis for being kala, and the persians look down on the punjabis for being kala, and the europeans look at the persians and see a black. people can always find someone to look down on.
2) the interaction between black americans and other ethnic groups in this country is complex and i don’t think anyone does any justice to it by shoehorning it into generalizations. some of the south asian bigotry is surely the racism imbibed from american culture (“blacks are lazy and shiftless”). some of it is pre-american, after all black africans often complain about indian racism (e.g., remember the australian indigenous athlete who was mocked as a monkey? rich). but, there is also the other side of the coin: my father was regularly mocked and taunted in graduate school by young black middle and high schoolers when he first moved to the states between his last bus stop and home. now, and adult man being terrorized by adolescents might seem strange, but he’s 5’4 and slight of build and he was new to the country (he hadn’t purchased a car yet and the bus didn’t drop him off at the front of the apartment). just as the immigrant sneers are the “lazy” and “shiftless” black, so many black youths intimidate and terrorize immigrants because they can, because they’re larger, they’re more culturally fluent and they’re bored, and it’s a way to nullify the racism they experience.
To no. 34: Doug, only 30% of adult AA women are married. There is a disparity in the dating game for Black women when it comes to Black men. Why do you think there is an influx of articles and blogs encouraging Black women to seek outside the race since there is a shortage of decent Black men?
I agree with Demon Doll, many Black men have a tendency to discriminate or have a preference for anything other than Black. Go to Minneapolis or LA if you need further confirmation. I wouldn’t expect you to notice or care since you stated that you are dating a Desi female.
Back to the original topic: I find this predicament very sad, yet I am not surprised. Black people are looked down upon generally in society.
Back to the original topic: I find this predicament very sad, yet I am not surprised. Black people are looked down upon generally in society.
anyone know of this is inverted in guyana and trinidad? after all, there people of african (or part african) origin have been dominant politically or socially for some periods.
This might be of interest:
Hindu’s in Jamaica Hindu’s in Jamica part two
It’s a short two-part documentary by OHM.NET a Dutch/Hindu/Surinam/Diaspora tv organisation. In these two episodes the South Asians and people from African descendance are interviewed about Jamaica life and the relations between the two.
Most of it is in English. The Dutch parts are just introductions to the English spoken parts. (just ff the Dutch parts.. unless you speak Dutch ofcourse)
As for Trinidad or Guyana I don’t know. As a Surinamese I can say that it is a generation thing. My grandfather did not accept anyone who was from African descendance We were not allowed to play with the African kids in the street or those who were from mixed heritage. Even my cousins who are also of African origin never got to visited our ‘ancestral’ home.
Nowadays it’s far more excepted or kids just don’t anymore bother about the pointing fingers of our parents, relatives or community.
Just an extra note: the first part is mostly about the divsion between the ‘poorer’ contract workers and the new ‘rich’ Indian immigrants. The second part focusses more on the African-Indian relation.
Speaking of institutional racism, a lot of African Americans hold the belief that the desi owned gas stations, convenience marts, pawn shops and liquor stores in economically depressed Black Areas is an institutional problem as well where the former oppressor (white) has now been replaced by the unscrupulous desi and arab immigrant who purportedly gets ‘government funds’ to oppress and lure the black youth with lottery tickets and cheap alcohol.
Go to any poor black neighborhood community forum and the haterade unleashed on desis who do business in those areas is disturbing to say the least. The desi business owner of course doesnt give a shit about what the area black folks think as he looks up to the police to give him protection who he usually befriends by giving them free coffee and donuts.
Razib:
Excellent analyses @ 39!
To your question @41:
Anantarupa’s post will be useful, but it’s important to keep in mind that since in Guyana and Trinidad & Tobago, people of South Asian origin are the majority populations (I’m not sure about government representation, though), the dynamics will be different than in Jamaica, where they are a minority population.
For two months now I have been wondering about a comment an African American man who does the yardwork in our house made. He said something about me being “more friendly and nicer and treat me with respect not like them other Indians families whose houses I work at”. (Exactly his words in quotes) Being new to town and not knowing many other Indians where I live, I simply couldn’t comprehend what he was trying to tell me. But now I think I get an inkling. Had no idea…That is why I love lurking on Sepia 🙂
since they represent disenfranchised working class whites
disenfranchised by who???? it ain’t non-whites disenfranchising poor working class whites, it’s rich elite whites. Hence.. it’s not institutional racism that’s causing their situation.
but if the kkk can’t be considered racist
point me to this thread, and I’ll point out yet again another misrepresented, coagulated viewpoint.
I’m surprised you haven’t found a way to blame it on Punjabis (especially Jatts) yet. 🙂
I’ve heard people say that too, about ‘government funds.’ & I realize you’re being kind of tongue-in-cheek, but some desi business owners do give a shit about what the area black folks think. They’re friendly with customers, they make local business contacts, etc. I just don’t think desi business owners are as evil and racist as some people would like to make them out to be.
After 9/11, my cousin’s regular barber (who is black) told him to get out of his shop and out of the country. I doubt many desi business owners would kick out customers on the basis of race, we’re too money-hungry after all.