For folks who study immigration flows, one of the interesting phenomena has been the tremendous success of the Overseas Chinese. In just about any country with a significant Chinese population, we find substantial overrrepresentation of Chinese folks at or near the top of the income distribution. Interestingly, this is the case even in countries where the Chinese were subject to both historical and on-going discrimination. Nevertheless, their ability to swim these currents results in interesting theoretical debates about “why”, what it means for other minorities and poses significant real world problems. Amy Chua’s groundbreaking book World on Fire does a great job of diving into these issues and extending Thomas Sowell’s scholarship in understanding the ebb and flow of different minorities in the economy.
In contrast to the Chinese diaspora, the Desi diaspora has a far wider distribution of socio-economic outcomes. While Sepia Mutiny regularly catalogs success stories in the US and occasionally across the pond in the UK, the Desi diaspora is unique relative to many in the world in that we can find different countries where “Desi” invokes different stereotypes at every rung of the ladder. At one extreme, in Fiji and parts of Africa for example, Desis are/were practically viewed as nouveau colonial overlords who unfairly “control” a disproportionate share of the national economy much like the ethnic Chinese in the Phillipines.
In the US and much of the West, a milder range of stereotypes encompass wealthy, hardworking professionals (docs, techies), and entrepreneurs large (silicon valley), medium (shop keepers & hotels) and small (taxis!). That’s not to say there aren’t exceptions — Urban centers in Canada are a particularly unique testament to the breadth of the Desi community in the West; I still remember the first time I realized that a significant chunk of the “gang problem” being discussed in a newscast I saw in Vancouver was desi / Punjabi street gangs… Some googling turns up this article, to give readers a taste. Desi gang-bangers are apparently pretty significant in the UK as well… BUT, at the end of the day, y’all know what I’m sayin’.
At the opposite end of the spectrum, there are several countries where Desis are decidedly clustered at the bottom — the low status & harsh treatment received by Desi laborers in the Mid East is often discussed here. On the news tab, prolific contributer “VenkiG” points us at an interesting article describing the plight of the desi population in Malaysia –
Malaysia’s Indians don’t send home dollars, don’t become CEOs of IT start-ups; they haven’t even produced a VS Naipaul. Consequently, in contrast to the dissertations on the NRI community in the United States, the formerly east African Indians in Britain and the Indian diaspora’s experience in the Caribbean, there is a paucity of even basic information on the ethnic Indians living off the Straits of Malacca. Consequently, in contrast to the dissertations on the NRI community in the United States, the formerly east African Indians in Britain and the Indian diaspora’s experience in the Caribbean, there is a paucity of even basic information on the ethnic Indians living off the Straits of Malacca.
…Malaysian Indians are predominantly uneducated; few are white collar professionals, fewer still own property. Drug addiction is a problem among the young. At the bottom of the heap, they do low-end jobs and run errands for ethnic Chinese crime syndicates.
The article goes into some detail on the various subgroups that make up the Indian population in Malaysia and how integral the group overall has been to Malaysian history. The author argues that Malaysia’s recent turn towards a Muslim-centered identity bodes even worse for this group and he advocates stronger ties between the Indian government and Kuala Lampur as one remedy…
For me, the article is yet another interesting datapoint about the controversial relationship between culture, race and economics…. And I certainly didn’t know that there were nearly as many desis in Malaysia as there are in the US….
There’s an earlier SM post on the plight of desis (specifically, Hindus) in Malaysia is here. It’s from last year, and obviously doesn’t get into the recent protests.
Desis are also at the bottom of the socioeconomic heap in parts of the Caribbean, too, I think…
From the Canadian article Vinod linked to:
“The gang members lived at home, Robin said. In fact one person who would have been involved in the hit on Sohi was spared the same fate as his friends because his mom would not let him out on the night of the murder”
Guess budding desi sociopaths have some of the same problems as the “mathletes”
Desis are also at the bottom of the socioeconomic heap in parts of the Caribbean, too, I think…
which ones? i thought distribution matters too, the poor might be disproportionately brown because of concentration in rural areas (e.g., guyana?), but the private sector is usually dominated by the browns too. though i would like detailed SES data and cursory attempts to look haven’t come back with much (i’m sure it’s there).
hmmm this outght to be a good one, and of course location plays such a large part to what & how you see “others”. I’ve been told by many African nationals here in the UK, that Afro- Caribbeans are just not serious about education, advancement etc. Of course in the US, both African nationals and Afro Caribbeans in turn , make it a point to distinguish themselves from the the “native” AfAm’s. What I’ve never got from the whole culture argument- as advanced by Africans, Indians, Caribbeans etc- any group from a quote:” 3rd world economy-” was if your culture was all that, how come your country isn’t “all that” as well? Remember- you can’t blame the government.
re: the News Tab, where part of this story came from
Please only post links to the original news story instead of submitting tips which force readers to pass through an unnecessary middle layer like Sulekha. The link in this post has been fixed to go directly to Ashok Malik’s column in The Pioneer instead of Sulekha’s “News Hopper”.
Sorry for the interruption, back to your regularly scheduled programming.
re: tamils, there is SES data that goes back to the initiation o the ‘New Economic Program’ which aided native malays. back then the economic layer cake was like so: chinese > indian > malay. this is 1970. now it is like so: chinese > malay > indian. the chinese had enough endogenous human capital that could weather the NEP (which was the price they paid for social stability). the malays were aided by the NEP directly (some might say that middle and upper class malays took advantage of it to leave the lower orders behind). the indians didn’t have enough endogenous social capital to whether the marginalization which the NEP pushed upon them, and as the smallest group they suffered. the whole system of gov. preferences in malaysia is structurally different from that in the united states. it is as if latinos were forced to start business with at least one non-hispanic white, while blacks were simply left out of the whole system.
A lot of the disparity in outcomes correlates with the position of the migrants ancestors in indian society in the 19th century. Most migrants to Malayasia/Singapore from South India were largely lower caste Tamils. Even today, the Tamils in these countries who have done well in education and are professionals tend to have upper caste backgrounds (with exceptions). As to why this might be is anyone’s guess. The chinese migrants were also laborers and came from the lower strata but they occupy higher niches in these countries and are noted for their high levels of industriousness and possibly higher average smarts (than Malays or Indians.. Malays esp the upper class Malay males are quite possibly the most privileged lot and leech off everyone else). Perhaps genetics has something to do with these trends as well? Add to this the discrimination against Indians in Malaysia (interestingly conversion to Islam makes one a Bumiputra! so thats a very strategic way to lessen institutional discrimination), its not a very hospitable environment for them.. I am guessing the more talented bunch of Indian Malaysians (and maybe Chinese Malaysians) leave the country for other places (Australia, USA) and there are probably some of them reading this blog. Its well known that most businesses in Malaysia are run by the Chinese and have the usual quota of Malay frontmen. In many ways, the situation for many Indian Malaysians is pretty sad (burdened by ancestry, discriminated legally)
The Malaysian government has been temple cleansing in Malaysia, an attempt to eradicate the Indic symbols in the country, which is kind of hard, considering that 40% of Malaysian language words are derived from Sanskrit. The Indonesians tend to be very comfortable with their Indic past; the Malaysians not at all. The Bhumiputra (Bhumi -SKT. soil/earth; putra SKT. son) policy is a race-preference system that deserves more international exposure for its insanity, and the Indians have been the big economic victims of it.
Razib, I don’t know much about it, but some desi friends found this out while on vacation in Barbados. Apparently desis are the low-level service/janitor class there.
Apparently desis are the low-level service/janitor class there.
yeah, i think they are guyanese immigrants. they also are involved in organized crime and have a violent thuggish reputation.
Chinese people are not nearly as subject to racism to the extent as other groups.
Even in South Africa during the aparthied, Chinese people were considered “honorary whites”, while every other race were put into different categories, with blacks getting the worst of it.
In America they even had Asian brothels back in the days of the gold rush when interracial sex was illeagal, but sex with asians was fine.
so basically, Chinese people are ahead of every other race besides whites, when it comes to how they are treated.
Generally the Seri Lankan Tamils are doing the best and are overrepresented in professions, the plantation Tamils now migrating to cities doing the poorest. The plantation Tamils are good candidates for recruitment to the LTTE. They are looking for a godfather group, and it will likely not come from India.
Chinese people are not nearly as subject to racism to the extent as other groups.
such a generalization is total crap. it isn’t even worth arguing. look to the hundreds of thousands of chinese killed in indonesia during the 1960s not subject to racism.
That may have been the result of Asians not being seen as people at all… I mean, we did have the Chinese Exclusion Act of 1882 as a response to the wave of Chinese immigrants who came to work in the gold rush and on the railroads. Not exactly an antiracist paradise.
In America they even had Asian brothels back in the days of the gold rush when interracial sex was illeagal, but sex with asians was fine.
also, anyone who has a cursory knowledge of the history of the american west knows that the pogroms and expulsion of the chinese in the west served as models for the “sun down town” phenomenon directed toward blacks in the upper midwest and northeast a few decades later. idaho was once 25% chinese. in my own small town in oregon archeologists were engaged in digs in the enormous chinese camp where they had fled after being driven out of town.
YouTube coverage of the Hindraf (Hindu Rights Action Force) rally in Malaysia that got scores of Indians arrested and caused the Malaysiqan PM to lash out.
Sundown Towns chronicles the forced expulsion of chinese from all across the western united states during the second half of the 19th century for anyone interested. most of the book deals with the expulsion of blacks, but the chinese are shown to have been the model that many racial supremacists used since it was an ethnic cleansing which went so well.
I didnt know that two major figures in Malay politics had Indian ancestry. An Iyer grandfather for Anwar Ibrahim!
—
It is piquant that Mr Mahathir Mohamad, who ruled Malaysia from 1981 to 2003, and discovered — perhaps invented — its Arabist Islamic soul, is descended from Keralite migrants. Mr Anwar Ibrahim, the former Deputy Prime Minister and opponent of both Mr Mohamad and current Prime Minister Abdullah Badawi, is of Tamil descent, said to be proud of his “Iyer grandfather”.
Razib, every race has had some sort of “genocide” commited against them, but you cant tell me that when white people consider you “more human” then the other groups, then it doesnt matter what Indonesia thinks of you.
oh. i was wondering what happened. i think as late as the 90’s it was chinese-indian-malay. very sad.
but you cant tell me that when white people consider you “more human” then the other groups
yes, but you’re wrong. you used one data point in south africa to illustrate your argument, but it’s really totally false. when the number chinese increases and they aren’t just a marginal group they quickly become subhuman #1. anyone with a casual familiarity with yellow peril hysteria in the united states would know that. brown people (asian indians) were discriminated against and excluded in part due to the oriental exclusion acts and their affinal laws. in other words, south asian subhumanity or otherness was derived from east asian subhumanity and otherness. you aren’t going to admit you’re wrong, but i thought i might as well make it clear how wrong you were in case someone else picked up the banner of “but the yellow man is privileged!”
It’s not just Malaysia. In Myanmar, Indians, known derogatorily as kalas are discriminated agaisnt. In the case of the Bengali-spekaing Rohingyas, they suffer occasional ethnic cleansing. As in malaysia, they’re at the bottom of the ethnic heap. However, unlike Malaysia, it’s the Muslim Indians that suffer most, as the Hindu Indians fit in better with the Buddhist Myanmar elite.
This whole “model minority” thing is a peculiar US delusion.
p.s. the general point i’m trying to make is hostility of a majority to a minority (or a dominant to an inferior) has less to due with the relationship between the two groups in substantive terms then the numbers and power dynamics. the chinese in alabama were a small middle-man minority and so were not subject to pogroms. the chinese in the american west were a substantial minority in many states for a few years (like i said, idaho 25% chinese!) and so they were the yellow peril. an interesting example are the contrasting treatments meted out to eurasian minorities in the british empire: quite often those who were british + something else were treated with far less respect than those who were iberian + something else.
Indians in Malaysia can slowly see their community whither away as they suffer from being modern day dhimmis or they can emigrate. Its as simple as that. Mass emigration from Malaysia is going to be very painful but from what I hear Uganda, Kenya and South Africa are welcoming towards Indian immigrants.
Re #25:
Some of the “Indians” in Malaysia have been there since 1511. They have no other “home country”. How many millenia have to pass before they are existance is recognized as legitimate?
Its as simple as that. Mass emigration from Malaysia is going to be very painful but from what I hear Uganda, Kenya and South Africa are welcoming towards Indian immigrants.
Out of the 7% maybe 1% (15% of total) are part of the elite. They can buy their way into canada if need be or buy big bungalows in Chennai as “insurance.”. The remainder are poor and don’t have the skills the first world countries want.
I doubt things are going to get better for Malaysian Indians, if anything things will get worse. Most of these Indians don’t have skills thats why I recommend they go to one these African nations in which it is easy to get residency for even unskilled workers. The prime minister of Uganda is actively trying to rebuild the Indian community in Kampala. He even returned the temples seized by Idi Amin.
In another world the Malaysian Hindus would be able to live as equals in their own homeland – in real life they need to get the hell out to preserve their religion and culture.
The more a country values a person based on his/her merit in a free-market system, the greater the chances that desis end up as a model minority. The more a country values a person based on race/ethnicity/religion/, the greater the chances that desis end up at the lower end of spectrum.
M. Nam
They should continue to agitate along with other minorities and secularist Malaysians. One thing — unlike Burma, Malaysia is very much integrated into the global economy, and scrutiny of its racialist system of governance and the embarassment wider exposure of it will cause should affect them. Their prosperity depends on the western/japanese presence of manufacturing (who can also be embarassed), and not on oil, possesion of which leaves makes you king of the world and immune to any interventions!
We have been covering this story for a week or two, the latest twist is that the Govt. has decided to accuse the arrested minorities with having terror links. It is kinda funny because they were initially charged with attempt to murder (the cops) when the protested.
So there goes the suggestion that “they should agitate”, any one else found supporting them will be labeled a terrorist and the Indian government has decided to distance itself now.
If the international community ignores their plight and India refuses to speak up for them, Malaysians descended from India should adopt some more aggresive tactics until India works up the courage to take the Malaysian envoy to task.
So there goes the suggestion that “they should agitate”, any one else found supporting them will be labeled a terrorist and the Indian government has decided to distance itself now.
Not really. One can also agitate from abroad. The leader of HINDRAF is on a world tour at the moment. Its better than getting out the guns.
Situations like this make me wish that the modern state of India went through a “manifest destiny” stage. Malaysia has awesome beaches….
India is having a hard time getting in with the ASEAN group and China is playing its usual dirty tricks (they have clout even though they are not a member). India won’t do anything to alienate an ASEAN member country. It makes me sad that the ASEAN countries, whose high culture is significantly Indian in origin, has decided to become vassal to the PROC. As usual India is late to the realpolitik game
It makes me sad that the ASEAN countries, whose high culture is significantly Indian in origin,
South India was also substantially more influential when the region Indianized. It is no longer. Bottom line: It’s about power, you know–the kind that comes out of a gun.
I see what you mean, though I think it is unlikely to happen like it happened with the Chola empire. But expanding the sphere of influence need not be through military means, of course.
I have one question for readers here – the article on Malaysia mentions Wahabbi Islam and Pakistani clerics as being two contributing factors to de-Indianize Malaysian society. Could somebody evaluate that statement – is there a genuine religious angle, or is it just a confounding factor in an ethnic conflict?
My past discussions with a number of Malaysian-Indians and Malaysian-Chinese in Sydney have indicated a shift away from the more open Islam to one that is quite rigid. It is now closer to Wahabbi teachings. This shift away from moderate Islam is also seen places like Hyderabad, India. The new mosques funded by Saudi returnees preach Wahabbi Islam/one that is quite close to it. This is a problem that is recognized by the Indian govt. There have been some articles mentioning this in the press (sorry can’t provide the references), I believe SAAG.org also had a couple of articles mentioning this shift to Saudi funded wahabbism.
I am glad to see you rebelling against Da Man by rejecting his language….
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About that economic layer cake, Razib, Manju, and anyone else who’s interested: it may have been chinese>indian>malay before independence, but most definitely not as recently as the 1990s, Manju. In fact I sort of doubt that was the case even before independence, though I’d have to look it up. There’s a very small Indian middle/upper class (consisting largely but not entirely of Jaffna Tamils), but I’d say the vast majority — the rubber tappers and labourers — were living in abject poverty even back then, and the situation hasn’t improved for them. (Still, the model/non-model-minority dichotomy is a bit simplistic here. Much as I champion the cause of Indians in Malaysia, I must emphasise that there is some socio-economic diversity — we’re not all drunken paupers 🙂 .)
The government, of course, has dismissed the November 25th protesters’ grievances as lies, blamed them for causing civil unrest, and jailed 31 of them. According to a newspaper clipping my parents sent me, any undergraduates (of local universities) who participated in that protest will not be allowed to graduate (participating in protest marches is forbidden to students by the 1971 Universities and Colleges Act). How’s that for freedom of speech? I agree that Malaysian Indians should continue to agitate, but it’s easier said than done. The most feasible option seems to be to agitate from abroad; yet it isn’t easy to be heard. There are so many urgent causes out there, and Malaysia isn’t Rwanda or Iraq or Zimbabwe. There are no wars or genocides or natural disasters; people aren’t dying of AIDS. It’s really, really hard to make the rest of the world notice the small, everyday atrocities that happen in a small, faraway country where the standard of living is relatively high and the economy is growing.
Brownelf – Most of the tech companies with major presences in Malaysia have Indian-Americans very high up the food chain. They could certainly be called on to make some noise as a starting point. It’s a matter of will. Besides the theocratic creep, the police brutality, surprise midnight arrests, etc. directed against the Indians, Malaysian system is grossly racialist–its really escaped sustained attention for too long.
The more a country values a person based on his/her merit in a free-market system, the greater the chances that desis end up as a model minority
Because desis are so much better than all other people? Is that why India’s per capita income $600/annum?
Ikram, it sure wasn’t planned that way, it’s just the flip side of having selected overeducated Desis in the first place.
Selective and forced migrations.
The Chinese Dovt. seems intent on assuming control over people they consider racially close, and maybe seizing their land, whereas the Indian Govt. does nothing to claim the people who are religiously and ideologically closer to India– never mind claiming their land. I think we’re too close to 1962 for Amardeep not to take us back to the Ramchandra Guha book.
Risible (#42): a good suggestion, but how does one begin to call upon these tech companies? They know the system exists and have chosen to invest in Malaysia nevertheless and done nothing to distance themselves from government policy, simply because the system doesn’t affect affect the private sector that much (it does to some extent, but it’s possible to prosper if you ignore it and get on with your own business, as the Chinese have done for the most part). You are right about the gross injustice — but again, it’s hard enough to get sustained attention for explosive human tragedies, let alone these quiet, festering ones. Still, I’ve been devoting a lot of thought recently to the world’s attention — how did black South Africa, for instance, finally convince the rest of the world to take notice? Holler if you have answers to these questions — not just Risible, but anyone.
Amrita #62 — I’m not sure I totally understand your point, but I’m a little wary of the idea of being “claimed” by the Indian government. The word suggests a proprietary hold that, frankly, skeeves me out — I’d rather have the global community, not just India, take a stand and condemn blatant racism wherever they find it. The trick is not to further racialise things (why should only India be able to protect Malaysians of Indian descent?), but to resist that kind of thinking.
Er — sorry, in the comment above, I obviously meant Amrita #44, not #62.
Thank you SM for posting this story.
It is very important to highlight stories from the global Indian diaspora.
The experiences are varied, but the people are ONE.
Is India a free-market meritocracy like the US? Since the mid-1990’s, when India took baby steps towards re-becoming a free-market mertitocracy (as it was eons ago), hasn’t it improved significantly (although it has a long way to go).
M. Nam
I think every Indian or person of Indian origin who through a giving attitude makes members of the host community feel glad that he/she lives and works in their midst performs a great service. This could mean charitable or voluntary work, helping people through good, creative listening, bringing to whatever job one happens to be doing a deeper engagement than strictly defined duty calls for, and other initiatives. It means more than doing well by oneself and one’s immediate family.
brownelf on December 7, 2007 07:53 PM There’s a very small Indian middle/upper class (consisting largely but not entirely of Jaffna Tamils), but I’d say the vast majority — the rubber tappers and labourers — were living in abject,
risible on December 7, 2007 09:58 PM Brownelf – Most of the tech companies with major presences in Malaysia have Indian-Americans very high up the food chain.
Dont think the Tech indians are going to be supportive of the “rubber tappers” and more than the Indian middle/upper class/Jaffna tamils did previously. More likely distance themselves. Because even though they may be of the same “minority” in the view of other a chasm of issues based on class/education/caste seperate them.
One does not have to go to Malaysia to see this dynamic in effect. Its right next door, in Assam (adivasis) and Sri Lanka (on second thoughts right there in India. In Sri Lanka, the Jaffna Tamils in the North have very little to do with the indentured labor crowd in the Hill country. Even the LTTE has be reluctant to make overtures or inroads into that community. Or if overtures were made they were rebuffed.
Given the above, find it quite hilarious to link the Malay “adivasis” with the LTTE. Hey, as a Govt you should use whatever ammunition you have in your arsenal.