Indolink.com carries a good article highlighting a study by Samir Patel, Nausheen Rokerya and Maneka Singh at Cornell University titled, Switchovers: Indian American Drinking Culture at Cornell
. The study claims to be the “first academic survey of ‘Indian American drinking culture’ in a college campus [setting].” The study sought to lock in on incoming desi undergrads who saw a particularly significant shift in their attitudes about alcohol (from something viewed as strictly taboo to something very normal and even necessary to have a good time).
Who were the subjects of this study? They were 12 Indian-American Cornell undergraduates – five male, seven female – who began drinking only after their freshman year of college. Demographically, nine were from the northeast, one was from the Midwest, one was from the west, and one was from the south. When questioned about their religious affiliation, three students identified themselves as being Jain, and nine as Hindus. [Link]
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Since most of the people that read this site have graduated from college, the rest of this will be a bit nostalgic (and may even make some of you nauseous). If you find yourself getting angry or thinking, “kids these days…” it means you are getting wiser (AND possibly that kids are getting dumber).
First of all the study reveals that all of the freshman students were shocked upon arriving at Cornell and witnessing the heavy drinking atmosphere among their senior Indian counterparts. All interviewees also indicated a struggle between a desire to maintain roots and yet still get the full experience of American college life.
The authors argue that the “switchovers” adopted mainstream American culture and that the “adoption of this culture and consequent ideological shift was caused by a combination of socialization needs, avoidance of fears, and academic pressures,” including the desire to be popular among the opposite sex.
The study begins by claiming that the abstinent culture of the average Desi student can be attributed to the strong Hindu background and their parents’ primarily educational immigration motive.
However, upon entering college, the same Desi students realize that the culture found at Cornell is radically different from that which they were used to at home. They were particularly surprised that this culture, which so heavily promoted drinking and partying, was so willingly embraced by the college Indian community. One student did not “expect that this many Indian kids would drink” and was stunned as to how much Desi students did drink. They found that this new culture assigned significant value to “having fun” and recreation, as well as doing well in school: the “work-hard, party-hard” mentality that many of their non-Indian high school friends embodied, was also a value for many Desis at Cornell. [Link]
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p>So let me break down for the researchers what I observed in college. For an increasingly greater number of students (desi and otherwise) “getting wasted” becomes a reward. It is something you deserve at the end of a long week for being an overachieving Indian student (even if your grades suck). Plus, everyone else is doing it and it might make it easier to talk to that girl/guy because, you know, maybe you aren’t that interesting otherwise. Another reason you may want to get wasted is because you don’t know how to tell your parents that you don’t want to be a doctor:
Many of the students apparently altered their life goals between the time that they entered college and the time that they began drinking, the study notes. According to the authors, this indicates a shift in ideology.
For example, one student’s goal during her freshman year was to do well in school so that she could prove to herself and her parents that she could in fact handle a Cornell workload. She never anticipated partying and socializing as being a big part of her life, but “the people [she] lived with went out to parties a lot so she went with them once in a while” and became exposed to alcohol. Similarly another student’s goal was to maintain a primarily academic focus. His goal was to excel academically, compensating for the fact that he did not get into MIT. During his freshman year, he placed “an emphasis on school work, not being social,” going out to parties only occasionally. Another male student said that his goal during freshman year was to “do well academically and get a high GPA.” A third male student’s goals were “not to get kicked out of Cornell, not to drink, to make good friends, to have a girlfriend, and to socialize…” [Link]
In August I attended a conference here in Houston titled, “Alcohol & Drug Abuse Among South Asians.” I was actually there to register people for the South Asian bone marrow registry but I did spend a good portion of the time listening to some of the talks. I was pleasantly surprised to see quite a few desi teenagers there with their parents. The better informed these parents are, the less of a chance their children will be shocked when they get to college.
After the students had switched over, they found themselves to be better assimilated into the Cornell culture. Whereas before the students often preferred to stay at home on weekends to study or relax, they now blended in with the rest of Cornell’s Indian drinkers, often starting their weekends off on a Thursday or even a Wednesday night. One student said that now he frequently “goes to the bars on a Thursday. Sometimes, [he’ll] even go on a Monday, Tuesday, or Wednesday, if [he doesn’t] have anything due the next morning.
The study concludes that desi students’ alcohol consumption served as a rite of integration.
A student promptly summed this up in her description of the Indian drinking scene at Cornell. “There were times when people got drunk, but most of the time, people were just buzzed. At a typical party, you’d see a couple of kids that were wasted, and everyone else would be pretty normal.” Another student recalls that even when he thought his friends were very drunk, they could act normal when they had to. He remembers, “Once my friend’s mom called him while we were walking home from a party. I thought he was going to say something stupid, but he played it off pretty well. She still doesn’t know that he drinks…” [Link]
So naturally, you know how this post is going to end. Let’s have it you anonymous commenters whose parents (unlike mine) are not reading this. Tell us about your first experience with alcohol IF it was in college like the students in this study. Let the college students of tomorrow learn from your collective experience 🙂
i have to agree. if only all women were as decent, refined, unbiased, and honest as men, wouldn’t relationships and the world at large be a much better place where butterflies flutter and unicorns loll around in verdant green fields edged by radiant rainbows?
I think you should try being sarcastic once in a while, maybe add some flowery words to make your point all the more effective.
verdant green fields edged by radiant rainbows
By the way, this made me want to eat a bowl of Lucky Charms.
i will try if it gives you joy.
i will try to use small words from now on. easy for you?
see, all less than five long!
i will try if it gives you joy.
Dont do it for me, do it for you, it’s kinda therapeutic, so Ive heard.
whoa!
instead of bottlingall this up, how about taking a chance. I am in sales. I know. 🙂
but i am beta (gamma? zeta?). i live to bow to alpha men like you and make you happy. but i will stop now, boss, if that is your order.
big word. i am not as well read as you are. does Mystery use it?
I’ve seen this among my peers too. Students who had to consciously work harder just to get to college are generally more aware of why they’re in college in the first place, and try to stick to some academic goal (I think this partly also applies to students whose parents are big guilt trippers and pressure cookers, e.g. a lot of desis). The operative word here being ‘try,’ because I’ve seen some of my peers try and fail because they can’t quite resist all the freedom of college (& free booze). Some of them have their heads screwed on real straight though.
Heh, I knew a boy who would ingest all sorts of drugs, gamble, get into fights, have sex, but he wouldn’t drink because it was ‘against the Koran’ (his words, not mine). But most of the brown kids in my high school were B’deshi Muslims, and not many were strictly religious from what I could tell (at least the ones that I was friends with weren’t). They experimented with alcohol and dating, but always in moderation and never overboard.
That’s not my case. My husband is very, very handsome. However, like most males he is self-conscious about genital size. Some brag about it verbally but in actual darshan it is quite small. Others fear their’s is too small when in reality it is about the average size. For some reason guys got alot of issues around this. I simply stated that my husband was small compared to a few previous lovers I’ve had, and he was not experienced in bed because he did not date or sleep around before meeting me (thank god!). However, that worked well for both of us because I was able to teach him what I liked and he was a willing learner and didn’t have that common arrogant attitude that alot of guys have where they think they are already perfect lovers and therefore don’t need to be taught anything new.
My husband is ALPHA to me and I chose him over a host of other guys for his wonderful qualities. The fact that he happens to be good-looking to boot is an added bonus. That being said, still I have fantasized about other men and I’m sure he has probably fantasized about other women too. That’s just what the mind does every once in a while. It doesn’t mean we want to be married to other other people.
Manju,
I’m sure Hillary Clinton is not attracted to the assholery of her husband. In fact, he probably wasn’t being an asshole when he was courting and first married her. However, after years of marriage, having a child, and running a country together, she finds herself in a situation where she is tolerating his assholery, not celebrating it. There is a difference.
And can we define what “alpha” means in the human context here?
Lot’s of money? Lot’s of muscles? Popular in social circles?
All of the above?
The fact is all humans are insecure and desperately in need of love and approval.
OH SNAP! Schooled, son.
“I think drinking hard is definitely a norm among Indian college kids – at least where I was (yes, I went to one of those party colleges – Xaviers, Mumbai)”
Hey Munira 🙂 Nice to find a fellow Xavierite on SM.
I live in a mid-size city here in the US, and my husband and I live in downtown (where all the bars,clubs, tattoo parlors and fancy restaurants are) as opposed to surburbia with chains (arby’s, chilli’s , strip malls etc). We go out regularly ( say 2-3 times a week) and in the 1.5 yrs I have lived here, I have rarely come across South Asians (Indians etc) downtown. From a few of them I have heard, the impression is downtown is a devil’s lair and all ‘internationals/ immigrants’ only live in certain safe areas of the city. When my parents visited the US, they were surprized that booze was not available on sundays. My parents (and rest of my family too) are social drinkers and on the night of my graduation, my mom, dad and me together finished an entire bottle of really expensive champagne, wine and cognac. They were really glad I would finally stop mooching off them and getting a real job!
Nice little parade of personalities there, Pardesi Gori.
Up to the old trolling tricks with the pompous pop psychology, Sanskrit references and TMI about your fantasy spouse/fiance/etc. Crying for attention and love.
Whenever given enough rope, you always hang yourself.
Tara,
To understand Alpha/Beta and the evolutionary biological side of things, please check out Robin Baker’s Sperm Wars. It’s a book written by a scientist for the general public. The scientific justification of the ideas presented in Sperm Wars can be found, as referenced, in his book Human Sperm Competition (which I have not read).
Fundamentally speaking, women like alphas and betas for different reasons, that doesn’t mean women don’t like them, or they are incapable of controlling their behavior. It does explain, with solid justifications/examples, different strategies employed by men and women (straight, bi, and homosexual) to ensure they have the best success for reproduction and passing their genes along (not merely reproducing, but ensuring their kids have the best chance to do so, also). Depending on the situation of the person, the strategies vary. Trying to explain it all in this forum won’t do any justice to it, though.
What about for people who don’t want to have kids? Do they prefer beta types?
Zing! But really, we have all suspected this but were really thrown off by all the Vanguard-loving “Tara Watabe” was throwing around on another thread. Same strident, dismissive tone. Same ‘knowledge’ dropping about India. There are quite a few commenters on SM, right now, who may have never encountered ole PG in her pomp.
Since this thread ballooned, I might as well respond to this:
“I’m hardly to be blamed for taking this absurd position to its logical extreme, knocking it down and pumping my fists in the air.”
In fact, that’s exactly what you should be blamed for. It would be if you had said, “Most of the men out there cheat on their girlfriends/wives”, and I responded with, “What? you don’t think there is a single man out there that hasn’t cheated?” You’d cry foul, would you not? thats exactly what your response was to me.
And It’s not only personal, and observed experience I use to back it up, the phenomenon is also corroborated by a female psychiatrist.
There was this wet noodle in my last workplace who struck me as gamma, not beta; the lady who worked for the big boss wanted to jump the wet noodle’s bones.
All that is great and wonderful, but again, that whole reading thing just doesn’t seem to be catchin. Did you get the Halle Berry reference? I’ll further decompose what I’m saying. On average, “beta’ism” is an inclusive set, so you found someone as beta (or gamma or whatever) but someone else didn’t, but chances are that whoever you find as alpha, she would also. Alpha / beta in an evolutionary context, is not completely subjective.
Why am I not surprised you were unable to stick to your resolution, HMF (though I note that you seem to think this thread ‘ballooned’ by itself, without your help). Some day you’ll learn life is not one long high school debate tournament.
Firstly, I did you the favour of ignoring your Halle Berry ‘point’. It wasn’t a point at all, but like so much of your argumentation, a blanket generalization based on anecdotal evidence. Since I can find one man who thinks H.Clinton is sexier than Marilyn Monroe, I’m sure I’d have no problems finding a man who does not want to jump H. Berry. Let me guess, you can find a female psychiatrist who’s proven ALL men want to do her.
With respect to taking your position to its extreme: in fact, you didn’t have the honesty to make a statement like ‘most women are attracted to assholes’. This would have pinned you to the position that it’s true in a majority of cases. Instead, you disputed my use of the word ‘occasionally’ with a snide comment implying that women are attracted to assholes on every occasion possible. You want to specify here? Does that translate to eighty percent of the time, sixty percent, what? A majority of the time? Of course I’m going to knock down your position when you have left it so completely vague.
Speaking of poor reading skills, you clearly didn’t read the wet noodle anecdote carefully. My coworker found the wet noodle to be an alpha, not merely ‘not a beta’ (nice obfuscation). I found him a gamma. And I bounced off someone I found alpha to her, and she responded with shock and revulsion. Happens all the time during girl talk (something I gather you’ve been very rarely exposed to). Humans are infinitely complex beings.
Btw,has it not occurred to you and your cohorts that a man may be a great lay AND a good, kind, caring husband? Why is this an either/or scenario for you?
Bye. I’m bored.
Hi:
Just want to say that it’s too bad that so many Indian students are being coerced and cajoled into drinking when at the time they showed up on US soil they were not disposed towards alcohol. Rather than joining Americans in their drinking excess, it would be better for them to try to talk some of the Americans into drinking less. That would be called leadership.
Americans drink too much, and college kids drink way too much. However not all college kids drink way too much, so there’s no reason why Indians can’t socialize with the non or light drinkers.
I was noticing how many of the Indian posters on this thread referred to “whites”, when they should have been using the term “Americans” or if we’re talking about universities in England, “English”. How color-centric you are! It makes no sense to talk color, rather, it makes sense to talk nationality or culture. I know a Canadian born Indian who drinks as much as any “white” (to use your lingo) and smokes a lot of pot too. And in case you didn’t know, many whites don’t drink at all, either out of choice or due to religious affiliation.
Hmmm…. you Indians are an interesting bunch. Interesting but also odd. I think I should start a business in which I help Indians to aculturate to the USA, so that you don’t have misunderstandings and so that you don’t lose those parts of your Indian identity that are valuable. The reason we find Apu (on The Simpsons television program) humorous is because of his incomplete understanding of American culture.
Do you know that I once saw a group of 30-something Indian men in Yosemite national park wearing business attire while hiking the trails? Everyone noticed how out-of-place they appeared to be. And I noticed they did not interact with anyone outside their group. They seemed like the new kid in the class, who no one will talk to because of geeky appearance, and who is too shy to take the initiative to make new friends. Now if they had taken my course in American aculturation they would have been wearing cool looking hiking attire, and they would be able to strike up casual conversation with anyone.
But my course in American aculturation will not just teach Indians how to fit in, but also how not to succumb to vices and other American stupidities, like jumping into the sack with an easy chick. I would also teach Indians how to size up Americans with respect to the potential for a good friendship or business relationship, and how to avoid disfunctional types. An Indian can socialize with an American without resorting to drinking. That is the fact of the matter.
Lessons in American aculturation: Rob Harvey robharvey at compuserve.com location: Los Angeles No charge for Saturday afternoon lesson if you arrange for me to have a date with a beautiful Indian woman, age approximately 30, good sense of humor, preferably NOT university educated, any caste is OK, even Dalit. No dowry necessary should marriage occur. We Americans don’t care about that stuff.
Coach Diesel (#164): Nice to know you still lurk…and thanks for saying what I’ve been wanting to say too but held back from. Pardesi Gori has some REAL seriously messed up issues to deal with in life. She’s getting better at masking herself though…I didn’t realise Tara was PG until other people started pointing it out (though I did think she was a freak).
That’s not me either. “Rob”–could you add a surname initial or something, to prevent confusion–thanks.
Rob, it would also be interesting to see how many strictly vegetarian Indians resort to meat eating upon coming to USA. In my opinon that is worse than drinking. Several of my cousins claim it was almost impossible for them to maintain a veg diet here, yeah right!
HMF, if you say more women than not prefer and get with assholes, basically what you are saying is that most men are assholes, right? Because that is who the majority of women choose. What confuses me is that first you talk about aholes and then alpha males, so are the two one and the same? I still don’t quite get what an “alpha” is, in the context it’s being used here. Can someone be alpha and beta simultaneously?
Things tend to become ‘impossible’ in inverse proportion to how much you want to do them. (I’m sure the same applies to desi kids who only break their teetotling lifestyles out of peer pressure.)
If it wasn’t for the fact that Pardesi Gori really sucks at masking her style, I’d think Rob (#70) was a sockpuppet of hers. Rob, instead of looking for Indian chicks on SM, why don’t you hook up with PG (tara watabe)? She already has an Indian husband, but since he’s a figment of her imagination, that shouldn’t be an obstacle.
things have no doubt changed much since i went to uni, but i just realized to what extent i had succumbed to peer pressure – all in all I think it was healthy because it helps clarify one’s options and say a confident ‘No!
I didnt (at all) succumb to peer pressure. in hind site, that might have decreased the quality of my student life.
Just curious, how did you manage? One way I can see this happening is if there was a bridge from the pre-uni life and the university. Otherwise at least I did not have the fortitude then to have a social life and yet stand apart. I screwed my life so much that the guilt trip took me through grad school (whih I paid for myself after a loan for the first semester) through which I remained a very good boy. 🙂
I just have always taken a really dim view of these kind of behaviors since high school. It has been a struggle for me to ‘fit in’ in college. Its still gotten “somewhat” better in the 6 years since college. I planned the next 30 years of my life when i was 18, and have stuck to plan (so far). Its had a lot of benefits in that I have avoided a lot of downside, but the problem is it kind of leads to (slight) social ackwardness for me due to me behaving in a different way from everyone else in the world.
things have no doubt changed much since i went to uni,
Just curious, are you from Australia
Tara, I like this question, and I do have a reply for you, but it’s long, and don’t want to clog up the thread. email me if you want it.
ah F*ck it.
Well, if you go back to noblekinsmans original phrase (#73), he used “assholeyness” to imply some kind of “asshole-ish” behavior, and from what I gather, I think he meant it in the sense of ‘not caring what people thought of him’ and aggressiveness in social situations, which I think stands in contrast to the hallmark card nonsense of “nice caring bla bla bla”
and the alpha-beta discussion really only came up later in #115, when DQ made a claim that all women want is someone to change diapers, etc.. to which I said they are betas who women go to for security, social sanction, caring, etc.. (mostly social reasons), but that’s different than the “assholeynes’ alphas who spark attraction.
Secondly, DQ also made points that such “assholeyness” guys may get banged every night, but will never succeed in getting married, but as far as evolution & reproduction is concerned… getting banged every night is success, a lasting marriage (while a lofty and noble goal) is a social construct.
Alpha as I use it, is an evolutionary bio term that by definition implies two things. 1. that other males will defer to him 2. that females will be naturally attracted to him (because of perceived high reproductive survivability)
This definition implies a low variance from person to person, all the discussion of “I found someone to be alpha but so and so was repulsed” is really a misuse of the term alpha.
I don’t think anyone would dispute (unless the person simply disputes what I say for the heck of it) that 99% of heterosexual adult males would consider Halle Berry an alpha female, for her high reproductive survivability, and would want to sleep with her. Are there men who prefer Angelina to Halle, or Ash to Halle? sure, but those preferences have nothing to do with the alpha-beta dichotomy.
Now coming to your point of alpha beta co-existence, in the animal kingdom, I think no, it’s impossible to be both alpha and beta, however with human beings, it’s fuzzy, I think because our linguistic capabilities are unique, we as humans (especially male humans – as a female’s assessment of reproductive fitness goes beyond the physical much more so than the males) have the ability to send mixed signals (indeed that’s one of the first chapters of Robert Greene’s the art of seduction), precisely because all women do possess the categories of alpha-beta evolutionarily hardwired (and this is agreed upon by many scholars).
So to answer your question, it’s yes and no. you can not simultaneously be both, however, if a guys intent is marriage [and one where your spouse isn’t constantly getting her fuck on with someone else who’s more ‘alpha’ (in thought or deed)] then you can essentially flip back and forth (for example, I can have body language that says ‘I don’t give a fuck about you’, but pull a chair out for a women, or open a door, or complement her necklace or whatever), and I think the guys who master that, have the most long term success.
i KNEW you couldnt resist…
Hey hey. don’t act like I’m the only one.
nah. i was actually sitting there wondering when it would show up.
well, with your whole alpha /beta dichotomy HMF, the way to deal with that if you want to be a nice guy and stick to your guns on treating other people with consistant respect is to:
sounds lame, or shallow, but i think it is true. people perceive a (financialy) successfull guy in a different way than they perceive some poor schmoe.
vig?
yes, vig. vigorish. money. moolah. get paid.
J Howard Marshall was rolling in it at age 80, and had anna nicole, he was as beta as can be.
well..thats an extreme case. i mean the guy thats fairly normal, if a bit beta. but, cranks up the vig. if a complete beta 80 yer old can land anna nicole, imagine what the slightly beta younger guy with vig can do…
True, you’re right, it is a special case.
But I’d argue that the same alpha/assholeyness qualities that attract women are the not completely independent (high overlap) to the ones that allow one to accumulate wealth in the US (especially in the US).
debatable…dont want to get into that though. most very successfull people i know are very honest straightforward types. they are just not as noticed publicly because they are not so flamoyant.
in any case, alll im sayin is that it is possible to up ones alpha factor without comprimising ones principles.
I think we’re talking about different things, you’re talking about dishonesty and manipulation (hence the phrase “maintain one’s principles”) as assholeyness. I’m talking more about aggressiveness, not caring about what others think, and a certain level of obnoxiousness.
oh the irony!
nah. im saying if its one of your principles to be nice and not obnoxious, and caring about what others things, you can still be ‘alpha’ without selling out these principles.
HMF, I’m still confused.
Berry is an attractive woman, probably no one would say she is “ugly”, however what do good looks have to do with high reproductive survivability? Some of the most beautiful people in the world may be infertile, so I do not see the connection between looks and reproduction.
Self-determination, confidence and assertiveness are worthy qualities for both men and women to emulate. However, not giving a damn what others think of you and being “agressive” to the point of outright rudeness in social situations is not attractive in either sex. It displays a lack of good upbringing or apathy to one’s environment. And again, that devil-may-care aggressive male with great looks and $$$ may be infertile as well, so than how would he qualify as “alpha”.
When reading works on gender (many highly speculative), I am always struck by how culturally relevant or irrelevant they are, depending on which culture is being thought of upon reading. Usually they are accounting only for the North American or Western European male/females/cultures.
In many parts of the world, the devil-may-care attitude coupled with aggressiveness will not get you mates. Take for example India where the joint family system, deference to the advice of elders, and other things along those lines are highly valued, even self-determination and assertiveness, which are generally considered valuable human traits in this culture are sometimes suspect as being “too independent”.
So as all these things vary from person to person and culture to culture, I can’t accept it as an “absolute truth”.
Then I dont buy that. I have loads of personal trial and error to corroborate. Money alone cannot make you alpha,
it helps…alot..
machang! that’s intense. I may be presuming too much but I can see why it leads to awkwardness. at least in my opinion plans are a barrier to emotional intimacy.
nope hmf. from toronto – like all the cool people on the board.:-)