Indolink.com carries a good article highlighting a study by Samir Patel, Nausheen Rokerya and Maneka Singh at Cornell University titled, Switchovers: Indian American Drinking Culture at Cornell
. The study claims to be the “first academic survey of ‘Indian American drinking culture’ in a college campus [setting].” The study sought to lock in on incoming desi undergrads who saw a particularly significant shift in their attitudes about alcohol (from something viewed as strictly taboo to something very normal and even necessary to have a good time).
Who were the subjects of this study? They were 12 Indian-American Cornell undergraduates – five male, seven female – who began drinking only after their freshman year of college. Demographically, nine were from the northeast, one was from the Midwest, one was from the west, and one was from the south. When questioned about their religious affiliation, three students identified themselves as being Jain, and nine as Hindus. [Link]
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Since most of the people that read this site have graduated from college, the rest of this will be a bit nostalgic (and may even make some of you nauseous). If you find yourself getting angry or thinking, “kids these days…” it means you are getting wiser (AND possibly that kids are getting dumber).
First of all the study reveals that all of the freshman students were shocked upon arriving at Cornell and witnessing the heavy drinking atmosphere among their senior Indian counterparts. All interviewees also indicated a struggle between a desire to maintain roots and yet still get the full experience of American college life.
The authors argue that the “switchovers” adopted mainstream American culture and that the “adoption of this culture and consequent ideological shift was caused by a combination of socialization needs, avoidance of fears, and academic pressures,” including the desire to be popular among the opposite sex.
The study begins by claiming that the abstinent culture of the average Desi student can be attributed to the strong Hindu background and their parents’ primarily educational immigration motive.
However, upon entering college, the same Desi students realize that the culture found at Cornell is radically different from that which they were used to at home. They were particularly surprised that this culture, which so heavily promoted drinking and partying, was so willingly embraced by the college Indian community. One student did not “expect that this many Indian kids would drink” and was stunned as to how much Desi students did drink. They found that this new culture assigned significant value to “having fun” and recreation, as well as doing well in school: the “work-hard, party-hard” mentality that many of their non-Indian high school friends embodied, was also a value for many Desis at Cornell. [Link]
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p>So let me break down for the researchers what I observed in college. For an increasingly greater number of students (desi and otherwise) “getting wasted” becomes a reward. It is something you deserve at the end of a long week for being an overachieving Indian student (even if your grades suck). Plus, everyone else is doing it and it might make it easier to talk to that girl/guy because, you know, maybe you aren’t that interesting otherwise. Another reason you may want to get wasted is because you don’t know how to tell your parents that you don’t want to be a doctor:
Many of the students apparently altered their life goals between the time that they entered college and the time that they began drinking, the study notes. According to the authors, this indicates a shift in ideology.
For example, one student’s goal during her freshman year was to do well in school so that she could prove to herself and her parents that she could in fact handle a Cornell workload. She never anticipated partying and socializing as being a big part of her life, but “the people [she] lived with went out to parties a lot so she went with them once in a while” and became exposed to alcohol. Similarly another student’s goal was to maintain a primarily academic focus. His goal was to excel academically, compensating for the fact that he did not get into MIT. During his freshman year, he placed “an emphasis on school work, not being social,” going out to parties only occasionally. Another male student said that his goal during freshman year was to “do well academically and get a high GPA.” A third male student’s goals were “not to get kicked out of Cornell, not to drink, to make good friends, to have a girlfriend, and to socialize…” [Link]
In August I attended a conference here in Houston titled, “Alcohol & Drug Abuse Among South Asians.” I was actually there to register people for the South Asian bone marrow registry but I did spend a good portion of the time listening to some of the talks. I was pleasantly surprised to see quite a few desi teenagers there with their parents. The better informed these parents are, the less of a chance their children will be shocked when they get to college.
After the students had switched over, they found themselves to be better assimilated into the Cornell culture. Whereas before the students often preferred to stay at home on weekends to study or relax, they now blended in with the rest of Cornell’s Indian drinkers, often starting their weekends off on a Thursday or even a Wednesday night. One student said that now he frequently “goes to the bars on a Thursday. Sometimes, [he’ll] even go on a Monday, Tuesday, or Wednesday, if [he doesn’t] have anything due the next morning.
The study concludes that desi students’ alcohol consumption served as a rite of integration.
A student promptly summed this up in her description of the Indian drinking scene at Cornell. “There were times when people got drunk, but most of the time, people were just buzzed. At a typical party, you’d see a couple of kids that were wasted, and everyone else would be pretty normal.” Another student recalls that even when he thought his friends were very drunk, they could act normal when they had to. He remembers, “Once my friend’s mom called him while we were walking home from a party. I thought he was going to say something stupid, but he played it off pretty well. She still doesn’t know that he drinks…” [Link]
So naturally, you know how this post is going to end. Let’s have it you anonymous commenters whose parents (unlike mine) are not reading this. Tell us about your first experience with alcohol IF it was in college like the students in this study. Let the college students of tomorrow learn from your collective experience 🙂
no actually that’s not it. the main benefit of drinking is simply getting drunk–for some it is a way to move past their own discomfort in social situations and for others there are other benefits. You do not necessarily puke, lose control, or even have a less than tolerable hangover. It is also quite easy to get drunk on a budget–most people who drink regularly (and are not in the top income bracket)do so with efficiency and not solely with overpriced mixed drinks at high end bars. Get your substance-imbibing shit straight.
the main benefit of drinking is simply getting drunk–for some it is a way to move past their own discomfort in social situations and for others there are other benefits
That’s not how most got started, particularly at my school. My frosh year roommate came to school with a staunch “I dont drink” the first party we all went to, he was front and center, by the end of the first month he was pissing in the hallway. laughing it up about how wasted he got. somehow I dont think he would have done that had he went to a corner alone with a bud. Most do it fit in.
And doesn’t “getting drunk” imply a level of lost control (maybe not to the point of puking), but definitely a noticeable hangover?
It is also quite easy to get drunk on a budget–most people who drink regularly (and are not in the top income bracket)do so with efficiency and not solely with overpriced mixed drinks at high end bars.
How bout you put up some numbers? how much do you think someone in college spends on drinking, say.. per month?
once again fella, i think you need a bit more experience in buying alcohol. Where I live, a 24-can case of Milwaukee’s Best costs a whopping $8 at Wal-Mart. A handle of Aristokrat vodka costs no more than $10…i could go on and on, but you would know what I’m talking about if you had any experience in the drinking culture and weren’t snidely sniping from the teetotalling sidelines. I spent far more on ganja during my college career than anything else–alcohol included.
I think the main difference here is that most desis at my school were drinking, smoking, snorting (and in some cases mainlining) before they got there.
Where I live, a 24-can case of Milwaukee’s Best costs a whopping $8 at Wal-Mart
Not sure where that is, maybe all that’s there to do around there is drink? who knows? Id say the average student at my school spent ~25-75 per month, mutiply by 10 you get 250-750 dollars per year, not a trivial aamount for a college student (especially one from a modest financial backgrond like myself) (Walmart options weren’t thre for us, college town, not everyone had a car, so most were reliant on local bars and convenience stores, who’d obviously jack prices up a bit)
I think the main difference here is that most desis at my school were drinking, smoking, snorting (and in some cases mainlining) before they got there.
I don’t even know what #3 and #4 refer to.
I’m talking about if you had any experience in the drinking culture and weren’t snidely sniping from the teetotalling sidelines.
The rest of the world can inject alcohol intravenously and I dont give a shit. I found that most of the desi drinkers at my school try and force it on me, why ? because they just felt so guilty, they needed little ol me to validate their behavior. I’m not sniping at all, and didn’t even know what a teetotaller was till after college. but thanks for assuming!
I’m in college right now and I drink socially (but rarely). I’m in engineering, so we’re quite the booze-loving bunch as a whole (and it’s definitely of the ‘work hard, party hard’ mentality). I’ve observed that there are definitely a large proportion of brown folk who abstain from drinking completely, but there are also a lot of brown social drinkers who keep their parents in the loop, etc. No one really minds either way and there’s no pressure to ‘conform’. However I will say as a female that I get a lot of comments (with negative undertones) from brown guys expressing surprise that I drink (even if it’s just tossing back a beer to celebrate the end of midterms). But that’s another issue entirely.
Really, where do you go to school, in the U.S. or elsewhere? I can’t imagine any guy I know expressing that attitude.
Canada. To be fair, most guys don’t care – it’s just that these particular comments stuck with me. They were drinkers themselves, but apparently drew a line when it came to girls drinking because it’s not ‘proper’ or ‘ladylike’ or some such BS. I passed it off as a few random hypocrites, but I’ve since met a few more and had the same thing happen. I haven’t figured it out, and I don’t know these particular guys well, but I assume they have other nonsensical issues with the place of women in society. I just ignore and carry on.
very few desi families of my parents’ generation or earlier have both partners who drink. Often it is just the Dad who imbibes. Your desi peers probably see their MaanJi or Auntieji in you. How’s your aloo gobi?
-ducks for cover-
🙂 I jest.
Murali, Ha! The statement and its implications are true either way, though – no? You just can’t date/marry an asshole…
HMF, I’d say your opinion has been frequently voiced in the history of mankind. So often as to become the equally trite version of the feminine ‘all men want are bimbos!’ Women will readily admit to being attracted to the occasional asshole (no comments from you, MM). But they won’t admit to wanting them, because they don’t. They have a strange way of wanting men who change diapers, take out the garbage and cuddle them when they have PMS.
and with a handle like dxdydz, it seems like you do multivariate integration too! hai raam, maths aur beer? what is the world coming to?
I’m a college student and journalist who, incidentally, is working on an in-depth article about binge culture among South Asian Americans. Binge drinking obviously falls under that topic. I think this study is definitely noteworthy, given that very little research has been done in this area. The subjects interviewed provided an interesting insight into the motivating factors for their ‘switchover’—a process which is familiar and recognized among South Asians. It’s important that the study acknowledged the ‘study hard/play hard’ culture of Cornell, because that culture resonates not just among The Ivys but especially on Big Ten and large public universities. I attend the University of Illinois, at Urbana-Champaign, where we have more than ten on-campus bars and you only have to be 19 to enter them—so, the ‘partying’ isn’t limited Thursday-Saturday when the bars are always.
For me, personally, the intrigue of binge drinking among South Asians lies more readily in the greater cultural implications. This study focuses on students who started drinking after college; the switchover effect. I’m more focused on how South Asian identity (both in terms of individuality and as a collective sub-culture group) has affected the development and perpetuation of the binge drinking culture among South Asian American college students and young professionals. Geographic location/religion/upbringing/ideology are all huge factors to consider when trying to understand the S.A identity most commonly reflected on certain college campuses. There are clear differences between South Asian communities in the West Coast, Midwest, and East Coast and those nuances affect the prevalence of binge drinking among college groups. I think the Cornell research touched upon these factors. I’m hoping this research opens the door to a lot of discussion about this topic, especially among contemporary-focused scholars and academics.
They have a strange way of wanting men who change diapers, take out the garbage and cuddle them when they have PMS.
perhaps years after banging assholes and when their looks begin to fade and they lose confidence in playing the “game” anymore.. i’m not complaining, i think its important to embrace your inner asshole. a friend told me once in the midst of my frustrated attempts to woo a girl, “don’t be the nice guy that you’re not”.. great advice, it worked and i had plenty of opportunities to be sweet to this girl later..
Rar – so the girl didn’t ditch you when you turned sweet, huh? See. Sounds like your friend was just telling you to relax and be yourself.
Women will readily admit to being attracted to the occasional asshole (no comments from you, MM). But they won’t admit to wanting them, because they don’t. They have a strange way of wanting men who change diapers, take out the garbage and cuddle them when they have PMS.
Hi, nice backtracking. now it’s the “occaisional” where, thata occaison happens to be, mothers day, fathers day, christmas, easter, arbors day, national squash day, international pirate impersonation day…
As for the latter, it fits perfectly into the “alpha/beta dichotomy” I think most guys spend much to long of a time being that beta male, (providing, supporting) while the women gets her fuck on (either in thought or deed) with the alpha “asshole” The problem is, guys like us have witnessed over and over again certain “asshole” behaviors disproportionately yield success. With data that skewed you can see why it rings dubious when the standard “nice funny caring bla bla” is trotted out like a broken record.
Hehe, American beers. In my country they are generally derided as tasteless substances. I have never tried one myself, because of your silly law of no drinking under the age of 21.;)
HMF & DQ, plz to be taking this elsewhere. I’m sure I’m not the only one who is annoyed by all this endless baiting.
I’m a college student and journalist who, incidentally, is working on an in-depth article about binge culture among South Asian Americans
Rupa, a couple Q’s, what do you mean by binge culture if not binge drinking? do you include excess of everything?, like binge smoking, binge TV watching, etc..?
also have you observed any correlation between economic background and receptiveness/participation in binge culture? Thanks.
They should ban the phrase “work hard/play hard” (or any variation thereof). I automatically roll my eyes at anyone who uses this term to describe themselves or their lifestyle. It has the same effect as announcing that you live a “hip” lifestyle. Please.
That is so dead on. Work Hard/Play Hard is even worse than someone claiming to live a “simple” lifestyle.
More nauseating than the phrase itself are the people who use it- the megalomaniac, utility maximizing jumbo douchebags obsessed with efficiency. But as long as we’re banning phrases, I select “down to earth” which every careerist seems to think they are when they are at a loss for words for why they aren’t a jerk. Don’t be stealing a phrase that rightfully belongs to potheads.
HMF,
Those who think of women as humans prefer to use qualitatives like ‘some’ ‘occasionally’ ‘certain’. Clearly you’re not to be confused with such, since at every opportunity you reduce females to machines which act and react according to fixed programming. Are you seriously suggesting women are automatically turned on by ALL jerks? Facile, indeed. It’s laughable how you deem your own cliches about women as ‘data’, whereas the mere suggestion that women might actually want to pair up with decent human beings – not a great leap of logic – is dismissed by you as ‘a hallmark cliche’.
And btw, one woman’s alpha male is another’s beta…so there’s hope for everyone.
My vote goes to “goal oriented”…. and “self-starter”. Sounds like a vespa, for godsakes.
I am a connoisseur; a marvellously natural one at that. Cheap drinks and binging just don’t agree with my palate; not for me the frothy, burp-inducing Beers. Nor would I ever be caught holding a drink with toys, umbrellas and various other fruity bits floating in it; Cocktails were invented by imbeciles trying to masquerade putrid spirits as Posh. Unfortunately, fellow imbeciles buy into the Cocktail hype; not me, I’m a true connoisseur. I usually start my mornings with a shot or two of Auchentoshan 1973; it works like magic on my throbbing head and sets me up for the day. I work with a bunch of prudes, so, before setting off for work, I fill my discreet Hip-flask with Sazerac Rye 18 Year Old which usually lasts me till lunch and numbs the pain during various Power Point Presentations. I prefer elaborate lunches and usually down a bottle of Chteau Latour Pauillac 1990 or such during the course of my meal, followed by a triple-shot of espresso; I take pride in my efficiency and am back in the office in two hours at the most, nice and snappy. At 4 pm sharp, I have a shot of Timeless by Hennessy with my Cuban Cigar before I head off for 9 holes of Golf. Since they don’t serve drinks on the course, my other Hip-flask comes into play, and it’s usually some nice and refreshing Sherry from the South of Spain. Post Golf, post shower, I down a couple of G&Ts with my associates before heading out for dinner. I only have Italian food for dinner, but, insist on French wine, usually some Le Montrachet or Romane Conti, depending on the dish. My nightcap is some warm Cognac served in a cold glass and I sleep like a baby. If managed with elaborate care and appreciation drinking is an extremely fulfilling and life-enhancing experience. Frankly, I cannot imagine a day without drinking, it’s that good. People who resort to binging on the weekends and consumption of cheap booze are cheating no one but themselves. Shame on their ilk; cheers to all the true connoisseurs out there.
since at every opportunity you reduce females to machines which act and react according to fixed programming.
You’re right. I do. but I do the same for males also, because at some level, we are all slaves to our genetic and evolutionary programming.
Are you seriously suggesting women are automatically turned on by ALL jerks?
tadaa. exaggeration 2.0. did you bother to read? I said:
“The problem is, guys like us have witnessed over and over again certain “asshole” behaviors disproportionately yield success”
Is this an absolute statement? no, so why turn it into one? because instead of admitting the obvious truth of the above, your only recourse is to twist what I said, and pump your fists as you knock your own exaggerated perception of what I said down.
And btw, one woman’s alpha male is another’s beta…so there’s hope for everyone.
so by your own reasoning, wouldn’t it make most sense to be as “alpha” as possible?
likewise, one mans idea of beauty is another man’s “after 5 beers”, yet show me a male who wouldn’t want to sleep with Halle Berry? Even UT members would be all over that.
Now I really REALLY dont want to continue this on the thread here, because
I usually ask them if they accidentally swapped their bottles of Viagra pills and vitamins. There are many, thanks to me, who are now able to work soft and play soft.
Well, alright HMF, but since I’m female I get the last word (see chapter 1, section A, subsection i) of the manual).
You objected to my saying that women are ‘occasionally’ attracted to assholes, implying that such occasions are very frequent, and referred to the ‘disproportionate’ success of assholery. You back all this up with so-called ‘data’ gathered by a hypothetical cabal of ‘guys like us’. I’m hardly to be blamed for taking this absurd position to its logical extreme, knocking it down and pumping my fists in the air.
Re: alpha/beta. If you really just want to be banged-the-life-out-of, you’re bound to find some chick who thinks you’re ultra-alpha. It varies radically from woman to woman, despite our ‘evolutionary programming’. There was this wet noodle in my last workplace who struck me as gamma, not beta; the lady who worked for the big boss wanted to jump the wet noodle’s bones.
certain negative traits get a disproportionate amount of attention. like being uber agressive. and, oddly enough….ignoring women. i could never figure that one out…
Again, I ask what type of woman is consistently attracted to assholery? I picture a very young, silly and emotionally immature one, probably 15-24 years of age. I don’t picture an intelligent, highly articulate, well-traveled,cultured and confident woman.
When it comes to settling down and creating a life with someone, both women and men tend to desire someone who shares their goals and can provide them with the type of peaceful, supportive atmosphere they need in order to reach those goals. In other words, drama is out. Now, the type of person one fantasizes about is different, and that is precisely why it’s a fantasy. How many people here can say that they have never fantasized about someone else while making love to their partner? And usual that fantasy consists of a person with better physical attributes than one’s partner, right? But that is where it begins is also where it ends – visual fantasy.
So HMF, if you want to be wanted by those silly girls who want assholes, well, maybe you need to start emulating assholes. But in that case you miss out on your chances with quality women.
Serenity now.
Serenity now.
I can answer all of these points in another venue. Pinda, I also have an answer for your point as well, which I think is an important one to make.
I didn’t any exposure to other Indians until I got to college. The first couple of parties I made it to were real eye-openers. I had never seen anything like it: NERDS… drinking.
I was at SASA 2K and heard this girl complain about the way guys were behaving–inappropriate touching and grabbing. Well, I graduated a few years after that and left what little I knew about the Indian scene behind me. There was a good run of 5-6 years where I didn’t attend any Indian college parties. Then, this Labour Day I was in Houston for a wedding. I don’t know why, I was so shocked that after all these years, these parties have not changed much.
As an undergrad, I had always thought that these parties were ‘temporary arrangements’ and eventually, once people discovered a more classier way to hold get-togethers, it would go out of style.
But after my Houston experience, I’ve come to realize that ass-grabbing will never go out of style.
I drank a lot more hard liquor in India than I do here. There was no “showing ID” stuff when I was growing up and booze flowed at parties. Screwdrivers and rum and cokes were the norm. No one asked your age – if you wanted to drink, you did. One night my best friend and I bought a bottle of vodka which we essentially finished over the course of the night. I think drinking hard is definitely a norm among Indian college kids – at least where I was (yes, I went to one of those party colleges – Xaviers, Mumbai) We generally went out as a group and usually someone more sober than you knew to pull the plug if they thought you were getting out of hand. The funny thing is that it was a lot easier to get alcohol than to get into an “Adults” rated movie in Bombay. I once was denied entry into a movie but I sure as heck could go out and by myself a bottle of gin.
Naturally my parents were clueless – I stayed over at the house of a close friend a lot! I grew up in a very conservative Muslim household and I cannot even imagine what my parents would have done.
I didn’t drink very much in college here in the US mainly because I didn’t have a close group of friends at that time. Also, getting smashed and still being functional is not something I do very well and failing out was not an option.
Now I’m considerably older and so on the occasional night out with friends, I may drink a couple cosmos or wine, and thats pretty much it. Its too hard to risk a hangover when you know your kids will wake you up at the crack of dawn the next morning 😉
Is it the Indian guys doing this or others as well?
Please can we NOT entertain yet another conversation on whether women are attracted to general assholery?
dxdydz, I definitely saw the same phenomena. Women who drank were either a) scorned, or b) “good for fooling around with, but not for taking home.” Of course this was not applicable to all desi guys, just a very small subset who had weird ideas of how (desi) women ought to behave.
By the way, similar to item #1, that last line is not an invitation for us all to engage in a “how should/do women behave?” conversation.
People in college thought i was gay because i didnt mistreat grls at parties, or try to take home a very drunk grl and take advantage of them.
This soceity is increasingly becoming cultureless.
Picture again, Tara.
Woulda been 10x funnier with laura bush’s pic.
Nah. It’s gotta be misogynistic assholery–sexual harassment, adultery and the like–not political.
Haha, Manju. But Bill’s not an asshole. He’s a weasel. Two entirely different species.
unless you meant laura kissing bill…heh, heh
Nah. It’s gotta be misogynistic assholery
G.W. Bush asked by the Hartford Courant in 1998, “When you’re not talking about politics, what do you and your father talk about?” George W. replied without hesitation, “Pussy.” link
1. Please can we NOT entertain yet another conversation on whether women are attracted to general assholery?
I think the correct way to phrase this request is:
Seriously speaking, I’ve heard that phrase (from men and woman) and while some fall under the megalomaniac douchebag type, most were just regular folks who actually liked to work hard/party hard. Some may use it to show off they’re ‘hip’/’cool’ or a variation of – but plenty in my experience simply use it because that actually reflects their reality and they aren’t creative enough to find a different set of words to describe it differently in a normal conversation.
I’m positive that phrase has ‘jumped the shark’, and maybe that’s where some of the animosity towards it comes from. It’s just used by whole damn village and that’s what makes it annoying.
Does it matter? I would hope that everyone is judged on the same moral scale. Personally, I find the behavior revolting.
I would also point out that college is just one environment that puts pressure on drinking.
I have a cousin, Microsoft Tool v2.0, pressure on tee-totalers is immense in that dash to the top. And there is the everpresent fear that salad and iced tea won’t have what it takes, to get you there.
I do have another funny story. In undergrad, the first party I ever went to, this poor guy just took a headfirst dive into a bush. His ‘crew’ kinda melted away… didn’t even bother to help him. A friend and I, picked him up.
Just made scene look very much like the gathering of spoiled rich kids that it was.
I don’t think we’ll be able to do anything about that for a while. So, at what point do you become too old for this type of thing? Or are we going to continue partying like rockstars well into our 40s and 50s?
“So, at what point do you become too old for this type of thing? Or are we going to continue partying like rockstars well into our 40s and 50s? “
Well in some jobs I see that drinking really helps you in a social atmosphere where you attend these ‘happy hour’ and mingle/network so sometime i do wonder about this question myself.
I would hope most people (inclusing myself) just refuse to live up to any peer pressure especially after college and just be congnizant of our behaviour if drinking.
In a lot of unis in the UK nowadays there are some alternative approcahes as there is a massive binge drinking problem. More people especially muslims are requesting cafe style areas rather than bars in student unions and before the smoking ban i did see the hookah restuarants being the social outpost for many teens. They can have smoothies, non alcoholic drinks and still be in a setting with a ‘lounge’ experience. Not sure what’s happened to these now hookahs are not allowed in London but it was a refreshing concept.
HMF, given that women on sepia do not develop giant crushes on you (and your ilk), there is at least some evidence that women won’t automatically be attracted to general assholery (however, general nuisance value combined with some expensive baubles and extravagant gestures will inevitably make us h0t 4 u).
sorry, couldn’t resist that one. i feel obligated to respond to HMF’s misogyny (disguised or otherwise) and patronizing attitude.
HMF, given that women on sepia do not develop giant crushes on you (and your ilk),
I have ilk?
sorry, couldn’t resist that one.
Don’t apologize, not to me anyway.
Tara Watabe,
It is not surprising that you are fantasizing about other guys, given that you admitted on the other thread that your husband is both not that good looking, socially adept, well endowed or giften in the sack. In fact, he is the perfect “beta” male that HMF describes, and your case seems to be a perfect example of the phenomenon he is describing (women being attracted to alphas but later settling with a beta for security). Perhaps that is why you are arguing so vehemently, it hits a little too close to home?
Jordan fades back, goes for three.. swish… nothing but net.
Of course, I believe all women hold this categorization to some degree, however for some it is more pronounced.
unfortunately, the rise of women in the workplace is going to put a damper on us boys having a good time. the other day, i was even forced to wait for all the women to clear the room before i could start with the cigars and manly talk. sad times indeed.
i have to agree. if only all women were as decent, refined, unbiased, and honest as men, wouldn’t relationships and the world at large be a much better place where butterflies flutter and unicorns loll around in verdant green fields edged by radiant rainbows?