Via SALDEF, a report on a local Fox affilate about a probable hate crime that occurred in Burtonsville, MD, on September 15. (Warning, the images below are a bit graphic. You might want to finish your breakfast first.)
This particular story caught my attention because, first of all, the area is very close to where my parents live in Maryland. It’s a very safe area, and my folks go out for walks all the time, sometimes around dusk — this could have been someone I know (though in fact, I don’t know this particular family). Secondly, the gentlemen who were attacked are in their 70s, close to my grandfather’s age — and I’m particularly disgusted at the twisted version of national pride that might lead a group of teenagers to attack the elderly in this way.
The day after the two Sikhs were attacked, a Muslim man was attacked by a group of teenagers in the same town. That incident has not been detailed in the media, and I don’t know how badly the man in the second attack was injured.
Luckily, two arrests have been made. I’m not sure yet how they found the kids responsible, or whether further arrests are in the offing; we’ll probably hear more in the coming days.
Recently, Thomas Friedman wrote a column entitled, “9/11 is over.” I wish it were true — I gather he does too — though sadly that is clearly not the case.
There is a growing racist, xenophobic tendency (hatred?)in many (not all) non-muslim African Americans towards muslims, people of eastern decent and others whom they believe to be muslim.
America as a whole and black Americans in particular need to address this, pronto.
Here we go again. why bring the race here? it could be any group of teenagers. I don’t understand why desis have such a nasty attitude toward blacks.
we dont well i don but sum1 in anotha post sed dey wer black but itz happnin jamaican n somali beef n stuff
If the assailants were white, believe me, the attitude displayed would be worse. We tend to be more PC when it comes to blacks because of the “unity in struggle” concept mentioned above in post #46, a desire to be seen as PC, or we are just more afraid to speak out about these issues when it comes to black people rather than white people.
Regarding “unity in struggle”, yes, some people of color see an idealistic common ground, but on a practical level I think each community’s “struggle” is quite different, meaning we are all struggling for slightly different things. If you break it down further to the individual level, each individual is struggling for something different.
It’s not a nasty attitude to acknowledge that prejudice against muslims and perceived “foreigners” is a growing problem in the USA right now.
its somewhat interesting that the alledged perps are black. but at the end of the day its probably just a reflection of american xenophobia more than anything else.
b/c now we know its not a hate crime…since blacks can’t be racist
jk’s the only person in the history of mankind who was able to pull off the virtually impossible comb over. normally, those who engage in this practice only expose their state of denial to the world, as those thin sweaty strands of hair never look like a full head. But jKs side hair was so thick they could actually pass for top-of-the-head hair.
amazing man indeed.
“(Warning, the images below are a bit graphic. You might want to finish your breakfast first.)”
Why are desis never angry? I am not advocating anything illegal, but I have seen many times over that desis, faced with stuff like this, are never angry. They are always “sad it happened”, will justify stuff saying ‘it’s all fate’ or ‘what’s the point; or ‘it shows their ignorance about us’ etc etc. No one ever is outraged, angry to pursue for a reaction or to do anything about it even legally.. always “sad”, and then it’s back to the comfortable couch or armchair, or a potluck or a cricket match on TV.
In the end american/british comforts are worth a few insults and black eyes, eh, people? I mean, what’s the point in keeping up ones self-respect and pride if it means keeping the Indian passport and possibly going back to that dusty dirty country? Ofcourse, there’s the supreme joy of taking orders from Sonia Gandhi, still..
oh, des_punjabi_rexdale, i don’t speak jive.
never heard limb-“augh-some” saying that. is that true, manju?
to me, it’s not about unity in struggle, it is basic decency.
but to behave, in the absence of any evidence, as if it is a problem especially prevalent among black americans is.
When the assailants in such situations are white (has happened before), then is it a problem especially prevalent among white Americans?
no, it isn’t. i think manju @55 has it right.
i think the real problem is teenagers. i hate those people.
Maybe. Maybe not. We’ll have to hear from the assailants themselves what it was. Nevertheless it was posted by Amardeep as having something to do with how muslims or people perceived to be muslims have been treated since 9/11.
Why are desis never angry?
A thousand years of slavery and dhimmitude. Aint that right, Nussbaum ki Aulad Amardeep.
Tara, I am finished with this issue. I was trying to be straightforward. It’s awesome that you would repay my attempt at sensitivity with a blunt pronouncement with how I’m flawed for being turned off by your over-the-top, judgmental obnoxiousness…when any normal person would feel that way after how you’ve carried on. Landmark doesn’t mean shit to me. A friend went through it and benefited from it. Don’t take my “good-will” too literally; I don’t ponder Landmark on a daily or even yearly basis.
You might want to examine why you feel the need to shove Landmark down everyone’s throat and how you make it seem like a cult vs an opportunity for growth. Is that an unkind thing for me to say? Well, now you know how you made me feel, which is something useful since you seem to over-dwell on “get over it” vs. compassion or comprehension.
You actually characterize yourself as an “unknown poster who is over-zealous” about something? If that’s what you think, perhaps you should follow your hallowed advice and get over such a misinterpretation. Your “comeback” was inappropriate and further proof of insensitivity/an obtuse inability to sense how one is being perceived; did you not notice how you were being gently lampooned by others here? Did Landmark overlook self-awareness? If so, ask for a refund.
As far as I can recall, most of the attacks on Sikhs have been in the bigger cities: New York/Queens, Maryland/DC, Pittsburgh (I think?), San Fransisco (Balbir Singh Sodhi’s brother) and Mesa, Arizona (Balbir Singh Sodhi) (Note: sorry, but I’m not sure how large Mesa is).
I wonder if there are any records of the incidence of hate crimes in more “rural” areas, eg Minneapolis, Madison, Bloomington, Cleveland, etc. The low rate of attacks could be due to the fewer non-Whites/Blacks there, but if the number turns out to be low proportionate to the population of the city, then maybe, after removing the variance in the data due to the prevalence of crime in older urban areas, the number of hate crimes may not be that high at all. SALDEF does a heckuva job in keeping things in the public eye and more power to them, but if we don’t know whether the number of hate crimes (on all non-Whites/Blacks) have been increasing over time, then it’s hard to say whether the phenomenon is receding or ramping up and how things are changing across locations (big/small cities).
Sorry if this is a bit of a ramble…
As violence rises against Sikhs and Muslims and anybody who looks Muslim in the US, the US Congress is still concerned with the growing phantom anti-semitism in the US while ignoring the threat to Muslims and people who look Muslim.
Desi Disgusted (#58),
RTFP. Read the rest of my original post. I said:
and I’m particularly disgusted at the twisted version of national pride that might lead a group of teenagers to attack the elderly in this way.
How is that not angry?
Incidentally, the whole point of organizations like SALDEF, Sikh Coalition, AALDEF, etc. is enable victims of hate crimes and other kind of oppression to “do something about it legally.” If you want to support these victims, send a check to SALDEF. Or better yet, get a law degree.
i’m guessing you’ve never broken any of the bones in your face before. Depending on the severity of the fracture, and it’s location, it’s not an injury that you forget about in a week. Even the slightest hairline fracture will remind you of the event that caused it, sometimes months after the fact. A colleague of mine sustained a similar injury, suffered from glaucoma for a month and went through surgery to repair and reorder the bones around her eye. But if you think it ain’t a big deal, I heartily encourage you to pick a fight with a big person and proffer your eye socket as a target. Perhaps then you will develop the capability for empathy if not sympathy.
.
this is tantamount to justifying domestic abuse with the tax benefits of filing as a married couple. If i want pain and suffering, but for fun, I’ll go to the friendly, neighborhood dominatrix–not the ICE. Prospective citizens should pay only the time debt, taxes and registration fees that are required for citizenship. Sparta is dead and gone, masochistic desires for black eyes and ‘struggle’ notwithstanding.
Manju, was that really necessary?
dravidian, I understand and agree with you. I apologize for being loose/fast with my characterization. I think there is an underlying assumption that Sikhs, because they have been targets for violence/discrimination, ought to be sympathetic to issues of discrimination as they face Muslims/Arabs. This is the same underlying logic when people find themselves disappointed in POC-on-POC violence. It’s not a fair assumption to make, and we’ve seen that isn’t accurate, even if it is an ideal (i.e. inclusivity) worth working towards. I’m with Tara on this one — issues of nativism and racial violence are not exclusive to white folks in America.
Harminder, there have definitely been cases of hate violence towards Sikhs in middle America, also. I wish I could remember more specifically, but right after 9/11 there were a series of incidents in Ohio, and there may have been a few in Indiana/Illinois as well. I’m sorry I can’t remember more clearly, but I have a feeling SALDEF or Sikh Coalition will have previous press releases on their sites about it. There was definitely a mini-documentary that came out about two young (30s) Sikh guys who were attacked at a Cleveland Indians football game.
To piggyback on murali’s comment, I also find it sickening that so many attacks from 2001-present have been directed towards the elderly. Again, my memory is fuzzy, but there were attacks on an elderly couple way back around 2002 as well. These kind of injuries, while violent and horrific in and of themselves, can be life-threatening for an older person.
ha ha ha Manju. I love you. 🙂
Hell so how is it a hate crime,so if I get jumped it’s a hate crime,some people just get jumped because the perps are assholes,few people out there think they can beat somebody down because they have the numbers game on them. I also agree with what the other poster said I hate teenagers because they can sometimes be assholes. I know I didn’t read through this like I should have but were racists slurs shouted and I live in the area and did not hear about this.
WTF? I personally don’t give a shit if non-Hindus use Hindu expletives (um, not that it’s that common), because I think once we’re wandering into the land of such expletives, I think it’s pretty much understood that we’re not insulting the word we are using so much as ‘expressing disbelief,’ as you said. It’s not like I said, ‘Fucking Christians who believe in Jesus fucking christ’ or ‘Fucking Muslims and their fucking Allah’ or ‘Fucking Sikhs and fucking Guru Nanak.’ I don’t think someone cursing to express their disbelief is the same as insulting all followers of that religion. And seriously, PLEASE don’t equate an expletive phrase in ANY way to these attacks. I’m done talking to you.
I was curious because most of the really virulent, hateful racism (like this) that my family and brown friends have faced in the NY tri-state area post-9/11 has been from African-Americans. Whereas the things that white people do tend to be a different type of racism like ‘Report brown neighbor to the cops because they have too many other suspicious-looking brown people visiting them over the weekend, or Tell MTA authority about that brown turbaned man with a big bag because he looks suspicious.’ I’m not saying that this is how it is ALWAYS, I’m just saying that this is how it tends to be in my EXPERIENCE. I think it’s basically what Camille said–that nativism isn’t only found among white Americans, but also among black Americans. Because pretty much no one among my family or friends has encountered such racism from Latinos or black Caribbean or African immigrants, interestingly enough.
I don’t think being curious amounts to ‘having a nasty attitude toward blacks.’ Personally, I find inter-minority relations interesting, so that was another reason I asked.
P.S. I am fucking SICK of desis (and Asian-Americans on a larger scale) being told that they are being beat down upon because they are ‘racist’ and ‘exclusionary’ themselves. Stop hating and stop blaming the victim.
We might have a healthy sense of detachment from the goings on in the material world?
this question as to their being black, etc. all goes towards how slippery and genuinely wrong “hate crime” designations are. You are allowed to hate. You are not allowed to hit. Hitting and hating at the same time should be illegal for the hitting and not for the hating. But then it gets to the question of how to choose a victim. For example, in new york lately there’s been a case where some kids (of I think mixed background but the main one or solicitor was white) found a black gay guy on Internet, told him to come to Bay Ridge for sex, robbed him and chased him into oncoming traffic, boom dead. It is being prosecuted as a “hate crime” as in “let’s find a faggot and rob him because we hate gay people” as opposed to simply “let’s find a gay guy to rob because it’s easy to rob gay people when they’re looking for sex late at night.” Defense lets us know that it turns out the perpetrator is gay, hence it “can’t” be a hate crime. Fact is, it still COULD be a hateful crime. No doubt alot of homophobic violence comes from closeted gay people.
black people are far more overt and public with their haranguing of other minorities, especially in public. They are more likely to make ching chong jokes and fuck with chinese people, to say shit about turbaned people or muslims, etc. on the train. But when it comes to beating someone up, is it that they genuinely “hated” either the sikh or the muslim or anything else, or that they saw a turban and thought it would be a fun thing to hit. I am guessing the latter, which is why the whole idea of “let’s let them know that we’re not muslims” approach is not only unethical in a way, but also ineffective, when it comes to preventing assaults on sikhs.
well, i brought up the demographics really quickly because i’ve seen SM threads on hate crimes bring out people who want to talk about how all white people are naturally racist and that this is all you can expect from redneck crackers. i figured adding different possibilities by posting the demographics into the mix would prevent people from jumping the gun.
I also felt that this page may turn into an anti-white riot. I’m not “happy” that these two men got attacked, nor am I “happy” that it was by black kids, but I think the fact that it was may make those who might’ve jumped on the “see, all white people are racist pigs” bandwagon, think twice. I believe that had the kids been white we would be seeing such types of comments, we’ve seen them before. My comment that we as desis tend to steer away from making similar assessments about black people is based on the fact that I see much less vitrol spewed against them when it comes to situations like this. I believe that is due to fear. Fear of being perceived as non-PC, fear of being perceived as being racist towards other people of color, and maybe just fear of black people in general.
My comment that we as desis tend to steer away from making similar assessments about black people is based on the fact that I see much less vitrol spewed against them when it comes to situations like this. I believe that is due to fear. Fear of being perceived as non-PC, fear of being perceived as being racist towards other people of color, and maybe just fear of black people in general.
it isn’t a desi thing, it is a white thing. specifically, many brown americans are socialized to be sensitive toward issues of group conflict and cautious about generalizing racially in public forums. except when it comes to whites (again, this isn’t a brown thing. many white liberals will generalize about “european patriarchy” blah, blah, blah pretty quickly while being cautious about trying to understand why the aztecs practiced cannibalism after their flower wars in the context of their cultural traditions). many non-american browns don’t have the same issues obviously. it is a testament to the civilized nature of SM readers that they tend to flinch from turning a black-on-brown crime into a black vs. brown dynamic. but, i wish we’d see this a little more when it comes to whites.
this is terrible. i suppose the elderly are being targeted because they are more vulnerable. =( i can’t believe this is still happening six years later.
i don’t think the warning was for people who have “gone soft”. amardeep and murali already responded to this, so i won’t rehash the issue. i completely echo amardeep’s comment @ 69.
i think a lot of problems with speaking out stems from the way that the older generation perceives american sentiment (whites and blacks) towards themselves. i mean, if the media is hesitating on calling it a hate crime (though i don’t know why they would) i’m not surprised that the older generation would hesitate to protest strongly. i’m not saying it’s right, but i can see the pov. furthermore, when there have been protests for south asian rights, (ex: bhairavi desai and the south asian taxi drivers) how much of a difference did it really make, in terms of different treatment of south asians as a whole?
~ deerstalker (formerly divya, but i found out that there was other divya who posted on SM first… yeah.)
Blacks are the most maligned group and desis in general seem to share the worst stereotypes about the blacks. The level of hatred desis have for blacks is shocking. But not surprising since desi culture promotes things like ‘fair and lovely’ and detests things that are black.
Native americans are much maglined group. There is no need to heap further insult on this group. I am surprised that people are saying that they need kick a horse that has already been flogged to death for centuries.
yet another desi – what is your point? what does it have to do with this post or with what anyone said so far? NO ONE has said shit like ‘oh figures they’re black.’ so, again, what is your point?
oops, my comment was intended toward the first yad (#82)
Razib carvaka,
You mentioned how liberals hesitate to talk about certain practices of native americans. Along the same lines, do you expect the liberals who condemn holocaust to quote shylock’s lines from the merchant of venice whenever they condemn holocaust?
I love Shylock – favourite character in the entire literary universe.
i wish we’d see this a little more when it comes to whites.
The problem is you’re equating white as “just another ethnicity” when in fact that’s not true. The white identity is formed in tandem with racial superiority. The two concepts are inseparable, so when a black/hispanic/chinese/eskimo attacks a south asian, based on race… it really can’t be tied to a legacy of supremacy, certainly not any kind of ‘black’ supremacy. However when a white (or group of whites) attack and say thing such as “get out of our country, etc.. etc..” it speaks to a legacy that simply doesn’t exist for other groups, here in the US.
I also felt that this page may turn into an anti-white riot.
…and if we just look at it from a practical point of view. Every race has it’s perceived perceptions, why do we get mushy about one’s that apply to whites? I walk into a public forum, I need to essentially “prove” I’m not a boxcutter wielding terrorist, blacks have to worry about cops mistaking their wallets/fingers/candy bars/wreaths/eyelashes/toe lint as a gun, so whats the big deal with white people having to go that extra mile to show they dont have racist thinking in their heads.. when all logic would predict they have more likelihood to practice that kind of thinking (whether it’s practiced in a virulent or subtle way)? Why bend over backwards to make sure the poor white folk aren’t misunderstood? It’s that white privilege that supposedly doesn’t exist.
HMF – don’t forget, talking about race means that you’re seeing things that aren’t there, you just want something to bitch about, you’re ‘too angry,’ and you’re really the racist one!
just as i wouldn’t prejudge blacks or (even) you till you voiced your opinions, i wouldn’t want to prejudge whites either. it’s not their privilege, it’s just the common courtesy of human interaction.
HMF – don’t forget, talking about race means that you’re seeing things that aren’t there, you just want something to bitch about, you’re ‘too angry,’ and you’re really the racist one!
You should have been around to join the others telling Rosa Parks and Medgar Evers that…
just as i wouldn’t prejudge blacks or (even) you till you voiced your opinions, i wouldn’t want to prejudge whites either. it’s not their privilege, it’s just the common courtesy of human interaction.
oh but give me a break man, do you honestly think in a general sense people have the same level of pre-judgement of whites and non-whites? it is their privilege that they are immune to collectivization (or at least, less immune to it)
I agree with the general gist of what you’re saying, but I don’t agree with this. Per Avenue Q, “Everbody’s a little bit racist…”
i thought tara was talking about attitudes on this thread. and in any case, i don’t think the answer to one pernicious attitude is to foster other poisonous ones.
I think you need to get your sarcasm-dar updated.
HMF, nala is being sarcastic.
(I think??)
Agreed that it is “not the same thing” to discuss white on brown hate vs. brown on brown hate. Again, I don’t want to get into it, but I think folks really like to believe there’s a “zero-sum” game around race relations. That’s all well and fine if you don’t live in a society predicated upon the racial superiority of one group over all else. That doesn’t mean that we aren’t complex creatures with multiple identities and issues going for us, but it’s not the same playing field. By analogy, it would be like arguing that the Murdoch “news” corp and an indie blog are on equal footing because they’re both media outlets. We know this is not the case.
I agree with the general gist of what you’re saying, but I don’t agree with this. Per Avenue Q, “Everbody’s a little bit racist…”
Then you just don’t understand the nature of what whiteness is in the United States, it’s socially defined as much as biologically. That’s why when irish, italians, greeks etc… weren’t considered ‘white’ until they started playing ball.
i thought tara was talking about attitudes on this thread. and in any case, i don’t think the answer to one pernicious attitude is to foster other poisonous ones.
well, I’d again disagree that the attitude that whites are more predisposed to make judgement calls based on race is “fostered” by non whites. Rather it’s been shown by 400 years of behavior.
No actually, I agree that on an institutional level whites benefit from their privilege and minorities lose out. But on a social level, all sorts of racism exists. I don’t feel any less resentment toward a Latino person who hates Indians than toward a white person who hates Indians, for instance. I may try to be more forgiving toward the Latino person because of that ‘unity through struggle’ principle, but my visceral reaction is still the same. I think that acting like only whites are capable of racism trivializes brown-on-brown violence–but I do think it is important to recognize that it is a white-ruled system that brings about this type of violence anyway (e.g. the black-Latino gang violence in L.A.)
I don’t feel any less resentment toward a Latino person who hates Indians than toward a white person who hates Indians, for instance.
Sure, and you shouldn’t. Just the same as you shouldn’t forgive an indie blog making a factual error, as much as you’d not forgive Fox News. However, which entity has more power, breadth and reach to control public perception? And which has more of a legacy of making those types of errors? These things must always be understood in that context.
whites don’t have a white identity in the US anymore. that’s white privilege