USA Today recently reported that the CIA has seen a boost in its minority hiring in the last few years. Ordinarily this might be great news, however, the Agency may not be recruiting the “right type” of minorities to come down to their Farm for training:
More than one in four recruits offered jobs as undercover spies by the CIA this year are members of racial or ethnic minorities — a record high percentage, the agency’s top spy says.
But the CIA continues to lag in fielding spies from the Middle Eastern and South Asian backgrounds deemed most critical to the war on terrorism, said Jose Rodriguez, the outgoing director of clandestine intelligence gathering, in an interview with USA TODAY. Only about 5% of the agency’s current undercover spy force is from an Asian background. [Link]
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I know plenty of South Asian Americans who would be a perfect fit at the CIA. Almost all of these folks would say “no way” to the idea, however. The problem is glaringly obvious. How is the CIA supposed to recruit from a pool of much needed, patriotic South Asian Americans (or anyone else for that matter) when that pool of recruits is worried that they will be asked to de-humanize (potentially innocent) suspects by order of the Executive Branch. From today’s NYTimes:
When the Justice Department publicly declared torture “abhorrent” in a legal opinion in December 2004, the Bush administration appeared to have abandoned its assertion of nearly unlimited presidential authority to order brutal interrogations.
But soon after Alberto R. Gonzales’s arrival as attorney general in February 2005, the Justice Department issued another opinion, this one in secret. It was a very different document, according to officials briefed on it, an expansive endorsement of the harshest interrogation techniques ever used by the Central Intelligence Agency.
The new opinion, the officials said, for the first time provided explicit authorization to barrage terror suspects with a combination of painful physical and psychological tactics, including head-slapping, simulated drowning and frigid temperatures. [Link]
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p>I would think that the agents best suited to infiltrate Al Qaeda’s network are those that would have the most (or could best exhibit) sympathy for the myriad of underlings and middle-men near the bottom of a terrorist group’s hierarchy. These potential agents would not take a job that would require breaking innocent lives, lives they could possibly relate to, in order to satisfy the whims of chicken hawks and neocons. If the CIA continues to be associated with extraordinary rendition and torture, its going to keep hurting their recruiting efforts, not to mention “The War on Terror.”
CIA critic Tim Roemer, a former Democratic member of the House Intelligence Committee who sat on the 9/11 Commission, said Rodriguez’s comments show the CIA has “more work to do,” especially in recruiting speakers of Middle Eastern and South Asian languages. “Our target has radically changed,” said Roemer, president of the Center for National Policy, a Washington group that researches intelligence issues. “We need people who can tell us the potential threat posed by four guys in a cave in Afghanistan…” [Link]
We should be against torture because it’s wrong, simpliciter. no need for the instrumental argument that it hurts recruiting us desis into the CIA–that almost cheapens the argument, IMHO!
That was implied:
well, not to be cynical, but most CIA folks are analysts anyway. sure, human intelligence is important having the swarthy look and being able to spout off some surahs (which i can 😉 would help; but knowing the languages is a basic issue from what i have read. but as for recruiting, i hear that the “best and the brightest” simply aren’t going into the CIA anymore. they’d rather go into management consulting.
Only about 5% of the agency’s current undercover spy force is from an Asian background vs. This year’s undercover recruit class was about 27% minority, compared with about 13% in 2006
these data are really difficult to parse.
1) you’re comparing apples to oranges time wise (this year vs. the current stock).
2) asians includes east asians and excludes middle easterners, who are classified as white on the census.
also, south asians from hindu backgrounds better not try and be “undercover kuffar” 😉 you see europa europa where the jewish boy was terrified of being seen naked by all the germans cuz his lack of foreskin would have tipped them off to what he was? you’d have an inverse situation. an arab christian would be a better candidate if they were fluent in arabic.
all intelligence work is NOT related to terrorists alone and DOESN’T necessarily involve dehumanizing activties…in that event the question to ask is whether “patriotic” (american), “desh-loving” south asians or “patriotic” ( desh ), “american-dream loving” south asians will sign up for CIA if the work involves SOUTH-ASIA ?
Sounds like my wedding night after the arranged marriage ceremony. LOL.
It doesn’t matter. That’s my point. Right now CIA=torture.
The CIA’s website lists career fields, which are the following:
Clandestine services are only one component of the organization. If one is uncomfortable with a particular type of job duty, there are several other positions that one can apply for that allow for significant contributions. It’s also a bit presumptuous of those who aren’t applying to think they’re ‘in’. One would have to jump through all the hurdles and hoops involved, especially in clandestine work, to even become eligible. The problem is that you need a certain volume applying for said positions to ensure after all the evaluation of requirements/qualifications and necessary tests, you have viable candidates left once attrition has thinned the ranks.
Obviously a need exists, but I don’t think those who believe they would have applied had the CIA not been involved in shady business are being completely honest with themselves (nothing insidious, it’s just the same excuse one hears from the overall population about other government service sectors that have some darker sides, like the military). There are positions for analysts, language experts, accountants (my college room mate had an offer from them), IT people, technical personnel of various job functions etc. There are also other intelligence agencies like the DIA, NSA, or law enforcement like the FBI, ATF, or State Department jobs overseas that does interesting work. Those on the front lines are merely the tip of the iceberg. There is an incredible support apparatus that provides the necessary bits and pieces to ensure the mission by those select few gets accomplished.
As said above, most people (the American population at large) have many options for their college degrees that government service in itself doesn’t seem all that appealing. Again, if your pool of potential candidates in itself is small, after all the weeding out, you’re not left with too many. In the long run, I don’t think it will be a major issue since many returning veterans, just like after every war, will eventually find their way into government service due to the points preference, military training (including language), and miscellaneous benefits. It’s an uphill climb anyway trying to keep up with a more fast paced dynamic world. The Cold War had static lines and you knew your enemy. It ain’t Spy Vs Spy anymore….
Does an intelligence agency really want personnel that are going to judge based off an impression? The CIA was never a bed of roses, I mean, they’ve always been known for shady business. You’re a fellow gubment employee, especially one within a highly competitive organization.
If someone walked up to you and said they’d rather not go to NASA, because it’s synonymous with poor quality assurance and shuttles falling out of the sky, would you take most of them seriously? There are plenty of cool jobs in NASA that one could make an impact at. It’s just the astronaut corps is the most famous and popular, the face of the organization, just like spies are for the CIA, yet both are just a facet of these impressive organizations.
“physical torture” may be abhorrent but what about “psychological brain-washing/torture” when you have to hear a seminar ( possibly post 9/11 paranoia ) at your place of work by Oleg Kalugnin an ex KGB agent who defected to USA organized by CIA and/or FBI ( who knows )? the reason i call it pychological brain washing/torture is because the seminar aimed at a diverse audience from different national backgrounds was peppered with sickening speculative statements such as “….CIA killed Indira Gandhi…”, “…buying hoardes planes from Russia..” etc. though the context was about rumours and underhand dealings of resurgent russia, the day I heard this i realized that CIA was not for me since i am second generation american and have some emotional connections directly and indirectly to desh. Probably if it had not been for that seminar I would have been still open to CIA career. Maybe 2+ generation with less ties to desh will have no compunctions abt CIA.
And here is a wiki-link to Oleg Kalugnin
gGujudude, you are right about there being more acceptable jobs within cia. but lets say you are assigned to desh and or the work involves desh. nowadays considering that the indian govt gives the PIO card to indian-americans ( so that you have don’t have to take a visa to enter desh ) i may be a be a very good candidate for that. now will american patriotism be greater than desi affliations ?
It’s a valid point – people actually get rejected on this often. As in, their affiliations/social networks run too deep…and it’s not just the CIA, but other sensitive areas too.
A friend of a friend, whom I am acquainted with, interviewed with the NSA. After his polygraph test, they declined him saying he failed on the ‘drug question’. That was hilarious, because the dude in question didn’t even drink alcohol and was brilliant. His suspicion was that since he was a Russian immigrant and a Jew, with very strong affiliations in both communities, he was deemed susceptible to other pressures. Security clearances, back ground checks, psychological tests, etc. weed a lot out. I think if one is concerned about conflicting emotions, those who are tasked with finding the right candidate will generally weed em out.
If people want to serve, yet are turned off by the nastiness of it, then why not join and help change it for the inside out? It’s because that career path was never seriously an option anyway.
His suspicion was that since he was a Russian immigrant and a Jew, with very strong affiliations in both communities, he was deemed susceptible to other pressures. Gujudude,
Most of them are analysts at CIA who do desk jobs**.
I do not think CIA needs PIO card etc – they have thousands of covers – from embassies, ngos, hippies, mncs.
In fact, if you read CIA*** history has always picked two kinda of people: a) preppie kids on power trip, b) people with multiple affiliations because they have perfect covers, and are often very eager recruits. Duller the personality, the better the cover you have.
** John LeCarre calls secret services as circus. Read him sometimes, you will know how dull most of their job is.
*** In cold war, they used get immigrants/ defecters from behind the iron curtain to work from them. A common trick used to be get scientists/ artists often (recruited during conferences) who travel quite a bit as operatives. In 1950s, sometimes only scientists and artists had accesses to areas traditionally hard to penetrate. An example would be high energy physics conference in 1950s somewhere in Europe, where a CIA operative would try to get a feel what USSR scientists are upto – just talking to them, listening to their presentations, reading between the lines, and that would give a feel for their technology.
Also, secret services use certain personalities for their core groups, and that changes from time to time.
Almost all of the early CIA top brass were Skull and Bones WASPS.
In 1950s, a large majority of MI-5 were Oxbridge closeted homosexuals – why – because MI 5 thought they could have undivided loyalty for keeping their secrets. Later, it was found out almost half (more than half) of them were double agents – like Kim Philby, Anthony Blunt, and many others
Regarding my example for dual affiliations – one of the most well known is Klaus Fuchs (one of the top Russian agent*** who helped them build the bomb) who was a German physicist and worked in America in the Manhattan Project at Los Alamos Laboratory.
*** Some of the top Russian agents were never Russians – a lot of them were Brits. Same goes for CIA, and others
More on Klaus Fuchs
Kim Philby Cambridge Five
James Jesus Angleton
They all had very nondescript personalities.
Klaus Fuchs was an extremely competent physicist.
Believe it or not, I actually applied a few years ago. It was post 9/11. I was single, well educated, and exceptionally patriotic. The interview process went fine till they asked if I had ever smoked marijuana. I replied that I had smoked a few times during college (a handful, perhaps). They asked when when was the last time. I told them about a year earlier at a random party I had attended. I was told that if it been 2 or more years, it would be fine and that this would come up during the polygraph. They told me to re-apply in a year.
Of course, my life situation changed. I’m now married and well established in a great career. Too bad for the CIA.
p.s. With a muslim background, capable of speaking a language common in Pakistan and with the cultural understanding to boot.. the idea of the CIA rejecting me for having smoked a little pot struck me as absolutely ridiculous.
Kush,
Shhhhhh!!!—Pls. try to keep this on the “down-low,” or I shall have to exit the (virtual) room!!
Kush,
You’re right and I’m familiar with the history. But the dude was applying for the NSA, not CIA. I don’t know their profiles, but I do know from first hand experience when you’re getting a clearance and if you’re interviewed, you will be asked to define your out of country relationships. Plus, it was that friend’s impression. He must have got a feeling that he set a few ‘triggers’ off. I know for sure the guy was clean as a whistle. Never any drugs or alcohol. Just odd that they would call him out on the polygraph for the drug question.
In Sageman’s book, Understanding Terrorist Networks, he talks about using men who tried out for Jihad but failed at really getting anywhere. Instead of prosecuting them or going after them for publicity, it was recommended that such low key guys be recruited to be the flys on the wall, to get intel.
He must have got a feeling that he set a few ‘triggers’ off. I know for sure the guy was clean as a whistle. Never any drugs or alcohol.
I do not think any spook agency cares about these things – I think they have to in their mind convince (like closeted homosexuals in British spy agencies in cold war) that they have a hook on you – you will do their bidding, you have the personality for their agency, and not be tempted. I do not think they will ever tell the real reason for rejecting. That is why they pick like themselves for top brass.
A lot of Cuban “shadey” personalities have been CIA operatives because they are rabidly anti-Castro.
Kush,
True! Skull & bones & lack of alcohol are like, well, oil and water!
Talking of squeaky clean Sex and spying
A lot of East German spies recruited by Misha Wolf were young men who would have relationships with lonely older women in West Germany, and get some intelligence in return.
The exact location of Iraq nuclear reactor was found out by a young female mossad agent.
Ian Fleming (a spook himself in real life) once said that “Bond would not survive 5 minutes. He would blow his cover immediately“
Some ex-female CIA agents have a class action lawsuit right now that their career was over once they had relationships with their foreign operatives, whereas men have been encouraged to do so.
The site now says that 12 months is the ‘cut-off’
i think the bigger problem in recent years has been the complete politicization and destruction of morale by political hacks, for example, the outing of plame for tawdry political ends, as well as the tenure of goss where lots of good leaders were fired/made to resign. i assume that things are improving some under hayden (although i assume the moral climate is still shaky given hayden’s advocacy of warrantless wiretapping when he was director of the nsa.
does the gay get cured in that timeframe too (if you are not ted haggard, that is)?
and how can desis become spies? mommy and daddy won’t exactly be proud of you if they think you are a computer salesman.
does the gay get cured in that timeframe too
Gotta love those priorities. As Jon Stewart put it: “Apparently the only thing worse than a terror attack would be a gay hero stopping it.”
CIA will start hiring desis when they start paying salaries which desis like. A close buddy of mine with multiple professional graduate degrees from a top Ivy League school recently got a job at the CIA and is getting paid $60 a year. Others with less experience sometimes start at $50. Now $60 a year is certainly liveable but probably not enough to attract desis, especially in DC.
Also almost all desis have close relatives who are foreign nationals. If you get a job at the CIA, NSA, certain Homeland Security jobs, the clearance process takes close to 9-12 months after you get the job. So you are supposed to put your life on hold for a year after you get the job! Thats rather silly. They need to streamline the process.
5 razib:
also, south asians from hindu backgrounds better not try and be “undercover kuffar” 😉
it’s easier to remove than to attach back on 🙂 A minor surgical procedure should not be a problem, since spies go to considerable trouble to mask their identity.
That is bizarre. Especially when you were honest enough to confess it. Judging by the 3 year guideline, it is obvious the illegality of the action does not bother them. MAybe they think they do not want a potential addict and a 3 year time limit would “weed” out the addicts which is still a ridiculous line of reasoning. They could use the same reasoning for anyone who said they like to party and drink alcohol.
I wouldnt mind 60K if it meant adventure and a decent expense account(like in the movies, but not in reality for everyone).
By the way, one of the former Indian Prime Ministers Morarji Desai has been accused by Hersh of being paid off by the CIA(forget if it was on a one time basis or more frequent). At one point, I gave Desai the benefit of doubt. But after reading more of Hersh’s stuff in general, and getting a better sense of Indian politicians, I believe he may have colluded at some point to get back at Indira Gandhi, even if he didn’t mean to sell out his country. Besides, Desai called Kissinger as a witness. And we all know how truthful Kissinger can be, heh. BTW, I hope no one here has ever tried drinking Morarji Cola.
Off topic, but the US could make a lot of money if they legalized pot. I have never seen a pothead beat up his wife or get into a barfight. I have rarely seen a toker have problems quitting like cigarette smokers. If the CIA is googling me now, I have not taken pot ever. So calm down. And yeah, I misspelled my name too.
Now, let’s see. Suppose I have ‘advanced’ analytical skills as proved by the courses I took post-B Tech from a TN engineering college. I speak fluent Tamil and know the dialects of not only the various districts but also can do crossover accents of sri lankan, malay and singapore tamils. I hate what the SL goons have done to TN and witnessed the gunning down of a rival honcho in Pondy Bazaar. I diligently went to American Center and British Council libraries and my nerd quotient is high. Now I am naturalized and feel a certain admiration for things American and have even started thinking Conservative.
Would I want to go and be recruited to listen day-in and day-out to radio transmissions out of jaffna jungles and transcribe the words in tamil so some south asian studies wasp can sit in judgment over what is important to make it into PDB? Not to speak the 9 months of background checks when chennai consulate decides to deploy an alex selvaraj or some such dude to go check into if I ever bought a book by Mir publishers. There are fundamental chasms that the establishment must cross to get quality product.
Yea, it’s great for movies, but one would be running with a giant bullseye on the back. Drawing attention isn’t a good way to stay under the radar, especially when it’s your task to do so.
No, you don’t necessarily put your life on hold. A command or organization can take an individual upon with an interim clearance. It all depends on the requirements of the job.
No, you don’t necessarily put your life on hold. A command or organization can take an individual upon with an interim clearance. It all depends on the requirements of the job.
The CIA does not give interim clearances unless you are some sort of an independent contractor working on a specific job.
my dad recently got called on by two CIA agents (for a kind of bull$hit reason, but whatever) and one of them was brown… my dad thought it was funny that they ended up speaking to each other in hindi for a bit.
I should probably rephrase that as ‘CIA officers’ instead of ‘CIA agents’ … they were doing a regular interview, not unconstitutionally locking him up and torturing him.
the reason desi’s don’t join is ovbious. We are too busy doing desi things like becoming doctors, studing for degrees and watching cricket.
Who has time to be a covert under-cover secret agent? Your mother would freak out if she ever found out… she’d be so embrassed to tell auntiji… “oh, errr, ya, my son, you know, he, he, is a spy”
although if they offered a fast-track to GreenCard I may consider it. But like all good desis – I’d quit and find another job soon afterwards.
One my relatives recently signed up for a role in the defense establishment (multiple grad degrees from Ivy League institutions).
He is getting relatively long in the tooth and has a family to and the position is not going to pay anywhere close to what someone with his qualifications could earn in the private sector. Most of all he has a strong liberal streak in him (even to the extent of getting sued by a right wing blogger)
Naturally I was surprised and asked him why
His reason was that the defense institutions does a lot of work in combating diseases and was the only major institution developing immunizations for a host of tropical diseases pre Gates foundation. As a biophysicist he felt that he could do far more good to humanity as part of the US Armed forces, than in the private sector.
(That said I guess probably ought to also to curry favor in anticipation for the day he water boards me in Cuba for bringing Vibudhi from desh).
Al Chutiya: Out of curiosity .. are CIA recruits allowed to say that that they are going to work for the company?
I always thought it would be cool to be a CIA agent, and actually considered trying for a job doing translation/linguistics work, but my actual politics just don’t line up with those of the CIA and I’d just feel dirty. It’s so much more glamorous when Sydney Bristow does it…
I don’t get why you think this would be the reason, Abhi. Why are South Asian Americans and Middle Eastern Americans any different in their tolerance for dehumanization? The CIA seems to have no problems (at least not mentioned in this article) recruiting people of other races.
I feel like this is a reason that some desis (and other groups) would not even apply to the CIA. I mean, what would you do if you were hired by the CIA and then asked to spy on a south asian country (or wherever your family is from)? I don’t know that I would ever want to be in that position.
P.S. I am not saying I am not patriotic in any way. I’m just saying it could be a potential problem for some people depending on their nationality (at birth) and their individual ties to whatever Motherland. I feel like it might be something that came up once in a while in a job like that…but I’m not sure, anyone have any insight on this?
Abhi,
Although your moral dilemma proposal is kind-hearted, for some reason, I doubt that those scruples would be the main problem in recruitment. I think in the US it is probably more due to the financial mindset that many of us have inherited. We are seeking big bucks in only a few limited professions to which we have been exposed. Doctor, dentist, or lawyer (the default for those that are not good at science/math). Yes, this is a simplification and doesn’t encompass all, but it does encompass the majority. CIA operatives don’t make as much money nor are they given the status and prestige that too many of us are seeking.
yengineer i(yengar) banker
Dunkin Donuts, Baskin Robbins, Taxi Driver.
Yeah as if CIA wont be a step up.
the guys the cia wants aint those guys. its the yengineer type crowd.
welcome to sepia mutiny, senator joe biden. or is it conrad burns?
though i would bet that the ‘dunkin donuts/taxi driver’ types are the ones who actually know shit about south asia. as opposed to everything-served-on-a-platter-to-them identity-crisis types.
actually, taxi drivers make more than you would expect (at least $40,000 per year among nyc yellow cab drivers i think, and if they aren’t the only breadwinner in the house [which they usually aren’t, b/c the women generally find something to do, whether it is running a brown daycare out of their house or selling chapatis] that’s not too bad for the outerboroughs). and if you have the startup money to establish a dunkin’ donuts franchise, you can’t be too bad off. also, a lot of the brown-owned convenience stores/gas stations/dunkin’ donuts/7-11s are in ghetto areas, where they end up looking like a diamond in the rough. but no matter the amount of money these ‘types’ make obviously there will always be other people looking down on them, brown and non-brown alike, though they are living their own version of the american dream (one that doesn’t involve torture).
oops, the quote in that should be:
Don’t be hatin’ on us abd’s! 😉