So…despite what some might allege, I do NOT keep dosa pr0n up on the main page for an extra long, torturous time, not on purpose, at least. To prove this, I wanted to publish something newer for you mutineers. Off to the News Tab I went…and then I saw this:
Karunanidhi calls Lord Ram a ‘drunkard’, Advani fumes
WOW. Look, I don’t pretend to know about either the Ram Setu controversy OR politics in India, but like any idiot with half-a-functioning brain, I do know (Mandink-aaaa) that it would be disrespectful and hurtful to call a revered religious figure a “drunkard”, especially in uber-devout India. Some of you may be asking, what is going ON over there? Well, for those of you at home who haven’t been following this controversy (coughguiltycough), here’s a brief explanation:
The Sethusamudram Shipping Canal Project proposes linking the Palk Bay and the Gulf of Mannar between India and Sri Lanka by creating a shipping canal through the shallow sea sometimes called Setu Samudram, and through the island chain of Rama’s Bridge, also known as Adam’s Bridge. This would provide a continuous navigable sea route around the Indian Peninsula. The project involves digging a 44.9 nautical mile (83 km) long deepwater channel linking the shallow water of the Palk Strait with the Gulf of Mannar. Conceived as early as 1860 by Alfred Dundas Taylor, it recently received approval of the Indian government. [wiki]
According to the Hindu scripture Ramayana and beliefs, Sri Rama and His Vaanar Sena built a bridge from Rameshwaram to Sri Lanka thousands of years ago. Some Hindu organizations and religious figures, including the Shankaracharya of Puri, have opposed the project, pointing out that it would destroy the “Ram Setu”.
Others have opposed the project on environmental grounds, and fears of the effect it will have on the livelihood of some 20 million fisherfolk in the coastal districts.
The Union government admitted in late 2007 that there was no historical evidence to establish the existence of Ram or the other idols in Ramayana. In an affidavit filed before the apex court, the Archaeological Survey of India too rejected the claim of the existence of the Ram Sethu bridge in the area where the project was under construction. A day later, the affidavit was withdrawn under pressure from Hindu fundamentalist parties. However, the State government of Tamil Nadu continue to maintain its official stance and refused to review the project. [wiki]
Got all that? Good.
The Chief Minister of Lemuria, Karunanidhi, is an atheist. That is why he is extra vexed about any religious-based objections to this shipping canal. A Senior Leader of the BJP, Lal Krishna Advani, thinks Karunanidhi has got some nerve on him.
The war of words over the Ram Setu degenerated into a bitter slander match on Thursday with Tamil Nadu Chief Minister M Karunanidhi calling Lord Ram a ‘drunkard’ and a ‘big lie’.
Karunanidhi reacted with these bitter words after senior BJP leader Lal Krishna Advani on Thursday asked him to withdraw his statement about Ram, saying “people at the helm of affairs do not force contempt on others as far as religious affairs are concerned.â€
“I want the Tamil Nadu CM to withdraw his statement about Ram. I respect Karunanidhi for being an atheist. But people at the helm of affairs do not force contempt on others as far as religious affairs are concerned,†Advani, the Leader of the Opposition in Lok Sabha, said…[IBN]
…to which, the Chief Minister replied…
Karunanidhi shot back in no time, saying he remains firm on his stand. “I will not withdraw my statement.“
“Ram is as big a lie as big as the truth of the existence of the Ganges and the Himalayas,” he said. The TN Chief Minister even went on to call Lord Ram a ‘drunkard’.
“Even Valmiki has said that Ram was a drunkard. I urge Advani to get into a debate with me after reading Valmiki’s Ramayana,” Karunanidhi said.[IBN]
Oh, my.
Lately, Ram Setu has popped up on at least one SM thread, specifically the uproar over calling Ram fictional or mythical:
In the wake of the Ram Setu controversy, Karunanidhi had described Lord Ram as a ‘mythical hero’ and vowed to not go back on the Sethusamudram project.
“Is there any proof of Ram having built the bridge, or that he had the engineering expertise… There was no person in the name of Ram. The story of Ram is authored by Valmiki in Ramayana. There are so many things that Valmiki has said about Ram,” Karunanidhi said.[IBN]
I do believe that at one inappropriately hilarious moment during this fustercluck, Karunanidhi tried to make a point by asking where Ram went to engineering school? What the…? I mean, obviously he went to IIT. Just like Jesus went to Harvard.
No, seriously, what kind of pointless, snickering question is THAT? And doesn’t this man value his LIFE? Or, I don’t know, his family’s?
On Tuesday evening, Karunanidhi daughter Selvi’s house in Bangalore was attacked by unidentified miscreants in a development that was seen as a fallout of his comments. Karunanidhi slammed the attackers, saying “they showed the culture of Ram Bhaktas (worshippers). I treat these things like a speck of dust. I welcome such opposition.â€
He likes to talk some smack, doesn’t he? Yowza.
”The Ram Sevaks have proved their culture. I reiterate what I had said. There is no historical proof that Rama existed or of the bridge been built,” he said.[IBN]
I know that some of you are outraged over this (and I sympathize completely…I may not be of the same faith, but I’m a person OF faith), so I hope we can all take a collective deep breath before discussing this. I know I’m not the only one who is interested in reading what some of you have to say.
…it’s fine that you look down on people like me or Runa, because we are “irrational”, but the point of this post was respect. Disagreeing with others doesn’t mean you have to mock them. That’s been stated repeatedly on this thread.
I’m saddened and a bit surprised at how difficult that tolerance is for some of you.
#250 (I have Tam bram hardware–software is some mixture of Anglo, North-Indian, brahmin, global fusion)
There is no TamBram hardware. It is all software. Trust me.
I really do not understand why religious people feel the need to lambast atheists.
I will admit that I personally agree with some of Sam Harris‘ points (and also Richard Dawkins’) about religion being taboo and therefore frequently immune to criticism, when literally no other area of thought is afforded that luxury.
I also agree with his retorts when very religious people claim that religion is the fount of morality in human civilization, when in fact nothing could be further from the truth. Generally, the most highly religious and pious societies are the most intolerant, and the most immoral. His favorite example is Sweden, which is a secular atheist country, but took in far more Iraqi refugees than any other country after the American invasion.
I definitely do not agree with his notions on torture and a bunch of other crazy stuff, though.
For instance, I think the idiocy of forbidding research on human embryonic stem cells is ridiculous, especially when you understand the crazy near-Talmudic-scholarly approach to NP vs. “Presidential” research and federal funding (literally divvying a lab up, and everything in it, into “prez” and “non-prez” areas, right down to the trashcans and glassware, and insuring that no words, people, or work cross that divide.
And since I was a kid, I’ve always wondered how “profound believers” could overlook the fact that every deeply religious person in every competing religion also believed the same way. I mean, they can’t ALL be right. And isn’t it just slightly nuts to be adamantly sure that your religion is right, and no other? No one ever allows the possibility that, umm, well, we think we have it right, but you never know…
Note that I am not saying that religions are WRONG, inherently. But I do not believe that any human endeavor is perfect, nor should any organization or collection of individuals be immune to criticism or scrutiny. Because the one thing that I am absolutely certain of (and any objective reading of history will back this) is that given those forms of “protected waters,” the absolute worst sides of human behavior quickly come into play.
You need not look any further than the American Catholic church’s recent child-abuse scandals, the Reverend Jim Jones’ totally nutty and devastating impact on his followers, the rise of the Muslim suicide bomber, the scizophrenic evangelical agenda for America (pro-life, but also pro-war!), the Gujurat riots, the Ayodha controversy, the Lal Masjid, the Golden Temple, etc. The list just goes on and on. In each case, deep-seated belief has given way to highly immoral and incredibly damaging behavior, all done in the name of religion, and purportedly, all therefore actually supposedly very very moral.
There are two problems here. One is the relative anger with which Karunanidhi seems to be condemning Hinduism. The ability to believe and speak as one desires is inherent in the concept of free speech. This applies even to politicians. If the people in the area disagree with the words of a politician, they should vote him out in the next election. Fair enough.
The other problem runs deeper, however, and that is Karunanidhi’s, and perhaps many ‘left’ leaning figures in the Indian political scene, propensity to reserve the right to ‘insult’ religious sentiments particularly against the Hindu majority. Karunanidhi calls himself a true atheist. If this is the case, why was the Da Vinci Code so arbitrarily banned in TN when the small Christian minority protested. Karunanidhi, the same could be said in many cases(to a lesser degree) of the Congress Party, applies secularism very inconsistently.
I am an atheist myself, and certainly no supporter of the BJP or other communal organizations. I believe in strictly secular government, when it refers to the separation of Church(temple/mosque) and state. What I do not believe in is the hypocrisy which is so obvious in the major ‘secular’ groups in India. This double standard leads to such facets as a subsidy for Hajj pilgrimages, the ridiculous system of Islamic Personal Law, and obscene levels of control of non-representative Muslim councils over many of India’s historical and architectural treasures. This leads to at least 50% of the problems in Kashmir, where the special status of the state maintains its separate identity in the minds of its inhabitants. India has an unfortunate cultural tradition of treating people as members of a group, while true secularism results from treating all people as individuals.
oops. last paragraph was going to be a whole other rant. Feel free to ignore that, or just move it up to be the third paragraph. 🙂
301 A N N A
I’m saddened and a bit surprised at how difficult that tolerance is for some of you.
–> To me, tolerance doesnt mean treating every hare brained scheme(which most practicing religions/sects are) equivalently worthy of my respect. If by refusing to treat them equivalently worthy of praise(or neutrality as the case maybe), I end up hurting fellow posters’ sentiments, I plead guilty.
As for mocking the posters, my intention was to point out the pedestal that religious belief is put on is wholly unwarranted. It wasnt intended to mock the poster himself/herself. If I have done so, my apologies.
Thanks Risible, so Karuna seems to have learned from his predecessors that attacking non-Brahmin Hindu institutions would be self destructive. It’s too bad that the Rationalist movement didn’t evolve along different lines…instead of Brahmin baiting simply attacking the idea of hereditary rights or ritual purity. But then again this was as much about political expediency as social reform.
On another note, I have asked my non-Brahmin DBD born relatives if there was much storytelling based on the Ramayana & Mahabharata when they were growing up…the answer was “No”. But interestingly Ramaswamy is a fairly common name. There’s absolutely no animus towards Rama, except among party ideologues who are considered cranks even by their relatives, and people will worship at Ram temples albeit not with the frequency with which they patronize Muruga/Shiva institutions. I look at the Ravana celebrations as performance art, it’s certainly mainstream. And quite unecessary given that, from my recollection, both the Valmiki & Kamban versions show him to be great in many ways with a few character flaws (i.e. not a one dimensional villain)
Meant to say that it is NOT mainstream
Neither do I .I also do not understand why atheists feel the need to lambast religious people.
I am going to bow out of this thread now because I think its at impasse. All that I can say is personally I do not hold with anyone saying their truth is the only truth – whether it is belief in a particular organized religion/a Supreme being/atheism etc etc
and THAT is what I was trying to prevent. I don’t mock or disrespect atheists, I wish they would extend the same courtesy my way.
Why do 90% of SM posts turn into a Scythian vs. Dravidian thing? or Scythian-bashing by Dravidian lurker/Razib/Rob/Pind USA/etc?
Salil and other atheists, Apologies. I was referring to Karunanidhi himself, not atheists in general.
I also agree with his retorts when very religious people claim that religion is the fount of morality in human civilization, when in fact nothing could be further from the truth. Generally, the most highly religious and pious societies are the most intolerant, and the most immoral. His favorite example is Sweden, which is a secular atheist country, but took in far more Iraqi refugees than any other country after the American invasion.
be careful about quoting harris’ “data.” he isn’t always faithful to the truth 😉
Post-Christian, but not secular, Europe.
All that I can say is personally I do not hold with anyone saying their truth is the only truth – whether it is belief in a particular organized religion/a Supreme being/atheism etc etc
some things are normative and some things aren’t. if you’re an atheist or a theist you think that god exists or doesn’t, don’t you by definition believe that your truth is truth and those who have other truths are actually wrong? you might give a probability value to your truth, but when making factual assertions there is a reality or there isn’t. when it comes to other things things aren’t as cut and dried. even if you believe that there is no one truth, you do believe in one truth because you are saying there isn’t one truth.
on the other hand, the contentions about whether religion is “good” or “bad” doesn’t have one truth, because good or bad is evaluated by the norms, the axiomatic values, you bring to the table. that’s a separate issue, and to some extent orthogonal to whether god exists or not.
Exactly! But being a bit hot blooded I cudn’t resist the temptation of goin on the offensive against a few ppl in this thread. Anna, I’m sorry for being a bad boy……
Where are the moderators?! Anna? SM Intern? Its rather amusing to see Dravidian lurker/Razib/Rob/Pind USA/etc bash North Indians/Scythians.
Brown daddy is off to nob a few Scythian birds before the Dravidian blokes have a chance ; ). Peace.
Brown daddy is off to nob a few Scythian birds before the Dravidian blokes have a chance
it speaks to scythian female moral character that you have to get ahead of the line 😉
what? have we left as many as 10% of SM posts untainted by this important question? i am so sorry. thanks for bringing it to our attention, 6-3SpciyBrownScythianMunda.
Well…they started it. Now it’s more of an inside joke, except when it comes to 6-4 whatever…I don’t know/can’t vouch for him, though the esteemed Razib thinks he’s a sly troll.
It’s not Scythian-bashing so much as a virtual manifestation of our collective eye-rolling (our = all of us inferior darkies). We got nothing but love for Scythians. Our love don’t cost a thing. Even if you were broke, our love don’t…oh, sorry. I’m still mad at J.Lo for python clutches. Anyway, it’s now a cherished, long-running joke. And it’s more “Scythian vs. Lemurian”, this is not a Dravidian thing.
304 Arjun
I believe in strictly secular government, when it refers to the separation of Church(temple/mosque) and state. What I do not believe in is the hypocrisy which is so obvious in the major ‘secular’ groups in India.
India has an unfortunate cultural tradition of treating people as members of a group, while true secularism results from treating all people as individuals.
–> I think it follows from the indian constitution which has explicit protection against hurting religious sentiments of minorities which, in hindsight, shouldnt have been there. That difference of treating religions as integral to the government instead of separate from the government is coming back to bite us. For that, a lot of the blame has to go to the religious elements in congress and other post-independence leaders. I think Nehru would have been more than happy to blast religion out of government given his dismissive view of it.
It is disingenuous of MK’s daughter, Kanimozhi, to make this comment about other faiths not being in the way of development.Given indian constitution guarantee of protection to religious sentiments of minorities, a decision on development would have to take their sentiments into account.
We got nothing but love for Scythians. Our love don’t cost a thing.
true, scythian women leave the wallet intact from what i hear. the only payment necessary is 8-inches of bong.
Razib wrote: the only payment necessary is 8-inches of bong.
That is, two or three Bengalee men.
Thanks Risible, so Karuna seems to have learned from his predecessors that attacking non-Brahmin Hindu institutions would be self destructive.
Thats why he has no problems sharing a dias with Sai Baba, the non-Brahmin, but will give lip to the Kanchi Shankaracharya (head of a Smartha-Advaita monastery, thoroughly Brahmin). Ram they associate with “varnashrama dharma” the four-fold caste order, and thus “brahminism”.
lc @273, interesting points. although, risible @322, didn’t mk make some statements to the effect that he didn’t go to see sai baba, it was sai baba who came to see him, analogizing himself to (the non-existent, of course) god?
Actually no, I think it is Nehru who is responsible for not pushing down reforms in the personal laws of minorities the same way as he successfully pushed down the reforms for Hindus.. He rode roughshod over all the religious Hindus in his cabinet and party. That’s the reason for both Shyama prasad Mukherjee, founder of jan sangh (pre cursor to BJP) and Ambedkar to quit the cabinet though for opposing reasons. Mukherjee complainging against reforming Hindu laws giving more rights to women and Ambedkar complaining against the slow pace of progress. If Nehru had similarly pushed down the reforms on minorities there was literally no one to prevent it. He went by the advice of “Maulana” Azad. Also Congress treated the “regressive elements” of the Deoband (mentos of Taliban) with kid gloves both prior to partition (starting from the khilafat movement to later using them against Jinnah) and the sad part is it continues till now..
Yes. It is hard to believe that she doesn’t know of the problems that obstruct women’s development in other communities..
it was sai baba who came to see him, analogizing himself to (the non-existent, of course) god?
LOL. In my book if you are self-solipsistic enough to consider yourself divine, then you cannot be an :”athiest.” You are an onanistic sect of one.
Yesterday a Vaniyar body (a Tamil caste) issued a statement saying that as Hindus, their feelings were hurt, and went on to enquire why Karunanidhi launched his TV station on an auspicious Ganesha day, and not two days later, on Periyar’s (the progenitor of Self-Respect) birthday.
That is, two or three Bengalee men.
ew! 2 or 3 8 inchers one after the other! watch out for drying glue!
Thanks, Anna.
North India (Jatts, Jats, Rajputs) feeds (farming/agriculture) and protects (army) the country of India – so Karthik Rao Subramanian can concentrate on studies/education 100%. Without Jatts/Jats/Rajputs, Karthik Rao Subramianian (or any Guju/Bengali/South Indian) may be Kader Ali Pathan a starving South Indian/Guju/Bengali.
the scythian is the sword the guju is the hand the jatt are the arms the cowbelt are the torso and legs the southies are the brain and the bengalis are the mouth and cock
Ahh, so that’s why everyone is starving in Sri Lanka–no, wait, they have, uhhh–high literacy rates and plenty of food. Odd conjunction, given your view. Sheesh–I’m not even a “Southie”–I’m just what Anna calls an “eye-roller” on this issue.
324 Ponniyin Selvan
Actually no, I think it is Nehru who is responsible for not pushing down reforms in the personal laws of minorities the same way as he successfully pushed down the reforms for Hindus.. He rode roughshod over all the religious Hindus in his cabinet and party. That’s the reason for both Shyama prasad Mukherjee, founder of jan sangh (pre cursor to BJP) and Ambedkar to quit the cabinet though for opposing reasons. Mukherjee complainging against reforming Hindu laws giving more rights to women and Ambedkar complaining against the slow pace of progress. If Nehru had similarly pushed down the reforms on minorities there was literally no one to prevent it. He went by the advice of “Maulana” Azad. Also Congress treated the “regressive elements” of the Deoband (mentos of Taliban) with kid gloves both prior to partition (starting from the khilafat movement to later using them against Jinnah) and the sad part is it continues till now..
–> I think it is unfair to dump on Nehru(especially with regards to khilafat movement. Wasnt he one of those young turks, till 1930 congress, who went against wishes of congress elders like Gandhi ?) for what was essentially the failure of the rest of congress to address the negative effects of religion. Nehru was (mostly) unquestioned leader of congress(with few snipings from religious retrogrades and contemporary congress leaders like Rajaji and Ambedkar) at that time but that doesnt take away the power others had of obstructing his measures(Didnt Patel’s protege Rajendra Prasad slip in religious influences, contrary to Nehru’s wishes ?). For someone like Nehru who placed such importance to democratic procedures and discussions, it would have been difficult to ram through his ideas in all spheres without participation from the party.
I dont think it would have been prudent of him to go blasting all religions from government from the get go(given religions’ unholy hold on people). So,he started with the majority religion and proceeded to other religions.
I am still not sure why he didnt succeed with islam. Given his equal opportunity disdain, I would have thought he would have been far more successful.
“I do not hold with anyone saying their truth is the only truth – whether it is belief in a particular organized religion/a Supreme being/atheism etc etc “
This is basically the crux of the ‘moderate’ religious argument against atheism. That all ‘truth’s are equal. However these people only add to the confusion…..it is like saying Intelligent Design is a theory just like Evolution. There is a big difference between atheist ‘truth,’ which is based on a systemic evaluation of the known universe, and religious ‘truth,’ which is essentially a conjecture on the nature of the unknown universe. They are in no ways equal. An atheist is not ‘fundamentalist’ if he claims that all religions are false, that is the very essence of his beliefs which he has the complete authority and right to express. This is different, of course, from going out of one’s way to denigrate another…which is just bad manners.
Krishnan… Nehru certainly had many of the ‘right’ ideas about secularism, at least compared to those that followed him. He probably had the ‘right’ ideas about many things…he was an idealistic man. However he missed the fundamental problem with the India he created…the government possessed far to much power over the ordinary lives of people. Separation of church and state becomes a much smaller problem if the government has little power to implement its control over individuals’ personal lives. For example if there was no government censor body, the government could not even respond to demanding minorities by say banning the Satanic Verses.
He went by the advice of “Maulana” Azad
Jinnah used to call Maulana Azad ‘the show boy of Congress’.
Ponniyin: I know you enjoy attacking the secular credentials of Jinnah based on his public pronouncements. Dig up Maulana Azad’s famous speech of 47 where he is asking the Muslims to not leave for Pakistan and stay in India. He talks about us (Muslims) ruling them (Hindus) for a thousand years and why we (Muslims) should not leave Delhi because of our Scythian/Pathan/Turk/Central Asian ancestry and and so on. You will have a lot of fun with the speech 😉
Also Congress treated the “regressive elements” of the Deoband (mentos of Taliban) with kid gloves both prior to partition (starting from the khilafat movement to later using them against Jinnah) and the sad part is it continues till now
Yes, but it was Nehru’s daughter Indira Gandhi who engineered the split in Deoband and Deoband now is for the most part irrelevant. So Congress Party under Indira Gandhi did play a role in bringing down Deoband. Next time I go to India, I plan to visiting Deoband. At one time Deoband was the intellectual hub of Islam in Central/South Asia. Now its mostly a joke with clowns running around dropping fatwas on a dime.
*plan on visiting Deoband.
“There is a big difference between atheist ‘truth,’ which is based on a systemic evaluation of the known universe, and religious ‘truth,’ which is essentially a conjecture on the nature of the unknown universe. They are in no ways equal. An atheist is not ‘fundamentalist’ if he claims that all religions are false, that is the very essence of his beliefs which he has the complete authority and right to express.”
just as not all religious people are “equal” in their rigorous understanding/evaluation/knowledge of their religions, not all atheists are equal in their rigorous, systemic evaluation of the known universe – some atheists are atheists not so much because of systemic evaluation of the known universe or any real knowledge of the known universe but more because of rejection of religion and its conjecture on the nature of the unknown. i don’t think atheists can claim their belief is based on complete authority either (but they have a right to express themselves)- it’s based on incomplete authority.
Long long post.
I grew up in Coimbatore, TN. A cosmopolitan city. In 1989, I was 15-16 yrs old, I went to my friend’s (Brahmin) house to visit him. A puja was going on, I didn’t know about when I entered. As I entered, I was dragged out of my friend’s house by his grandpa (who knows me very well) and left me in the streets because in his words my presence would pollute the Puja because I’m not “pure” and I’m a meat eater! That incident was shocker for me and I’m supposed to be an upper class Hindu 🙂
My friend and his father immediately apologized to me. Anyway, that incident left a really bad taste and mark in my mind. I never went back to their home again. We stayed friends, played together and are still friends. It made me understand the DK and other anti-Brahmin sentiments in TN. I’m glad that generation died with the “dirty” grandpa. I can imagine how people might behaved during the grandpa’s times and the rampant discrimination that existed in TN and still exist. Funniest and ironic thing is that the same grandpa does not like wasting “human waste”, considers it as a natural pesticide and will pour the filth to the coconut tries in his house and the whole neighborhood would smell shiit. I swear man, this is 100% true and only will happen in real life!
Another incident that affected me, In 1997, I was living in Caribbean countries and one of my friends mom came to visit him from India. They are Brahmins. One day, while visiting I asked for water, my friend brought a glass of water but his mom stopped him, washed the glass again and then gave me water. My friend was puzzled. She remarked, the glass was cleaned by the “lower class\caste” girl, refering to the African-American girl provided by the company to clean the house and keep it in order. Man, I couldn’t drink the water at all. She was such nice lady educated lady and I couldn’t believe it coming from her!
I think these are the type of people reasonable for the success of DK movement in TN. Personally, I think DK movement is natural thing to happen in society like that. Both the rationlist movement and the political movement had a strong legs because of widespread existence of discrimination and casteism. Otherwise it would never would have gotten the approval of TN People. It is true Brahmins are not the only caste to discriminate against lower caste people, in fact my uncles and aunts are equally worst and even my mom to an extent. But the reason they did that is because of their maligned Hindu belief system in castes and their belief in the order of levels(high & low caste) according to your Hindu karma. This is the reason, I think Periyar attacked Hinduism, Hindu gods directly rather attacking their followers. Periyar himself was a high-class Hindu but he thought the system is wrong, not the people following it. So he said let’s change the system. He used shocking methods like, create a statue, slipper garland it and then break it. Erected monuments on the corner of streets saying “There is no GOD, one who believes in GOD is a fool and a barbarian etc..” Some of the still survive in TN streets and can be seen in front of some DK offices. DK-DMK also opened libraries in the neighborhoods but failed miserably. I think Periyar was brave and honest enough to go after Hindu system of belief rather than people believing it because Brahmins were not attacked during the movement only their system of belief. DK people did not attack other religions because those religions did not have inherent discrimination built into their belief system. So it was more of social movement than a pure religious movement. of course adding fire to it is the idea that Aryans had hijacked the language, culture, people and gods of Dravidians.
Karunanidhi comes from this ideology and irrespective how he used it to politically to gain power, he is staunch believer in it. He will not back off. I actually think, these kind of debates makes a society move forward. It is healthy as all long as people don’t kill each other. Also it is unique to Hinduism that it allows all system of thoughts and open to criticism and debate. In fact, essence of Hinduism is about going after the truth not just god. It is oxymoronic to be a Hindu and not question God and reality of the world etc… In fact, by Nastika school of Hindu thought allows atheism and Samkhya and Mimamsa school are example of that. And two other religions to come out of India, Buddhism and Jainism are borderline atheistic and openly agnostic! So I’m sad to see debates(not matter out outragious it is) suppressed in the name of Ram. oh, I forgot all about the Bridge Adam! DAMN!
Amfd,
Yes, I’ve attacked Jinnah because he is not “secular” by what we mean “secular” now. He is as secular as “Bal Thackeray”.. But to tell you the truth, i’d have preferred Jinnah to have switched roles with Maulana Azad.
I know that all the regressive Islamic forces were with the Congress (atleast during the early 40s..) not because of any love for Indian secularism / rationalism but because of their valid (and later proven) fear that by partitioning India, Muslims would be relegated to obscure regions in the borders and their political power (that is considerable at that time) would considerably diminish by following the hare-brained scheme of Jinnah..
But there are lots of variables around that time.. Jinnah would not have expected such a solidified central power in the hands of Hindus ruling a vast country bulldozing the 500+ princes and neatly integrating those.. Afterall Hindus were not known for ruling themselves over the previous 1000 years.. 🙂 If you read the various pronouncements of various leaders / western reporters around that time not many gave a chance for India with its million divisions to stay a united country after the British left..
d00d. jealousy ain’t becoming.
p.s. andhra pradesh is the ‘rice belt’ of india AND hyderabad is rapidly modernizing, so you can take your phulka and stick it in your .. mouth.
“i don’t think atheists can claim their belief is based on complete authority either (but they have a right to express themselves)- it’s based on incomplete authority.”
You are confusing their personal belief and the idea of atheism. When a person claims he is an atheist, he does not have to do any of the research or understand any of the science personally. All he has to do is implicitly agree that he believes in the process that we should shape our beliefs about the world based on systemic inquiry into its nature. For example my personal belief in Atheism is hardly the result of examining all the religions, and all of science in its entirety and therefore choosing my belief system. There are very few people with that sort of time. I form my beliefs based on a trust in science as the foundation of all knowledge. If I am confused about a certain phenomenon, I look in the scientific literature to find my solution. In this way it is similar to religious people, who may perhaps read scripture to look for their answers.
An atheist can claim that he only believes what he has observed(or others have observed and documented for him), and over that he has complete authority. A religious person can never claim that.
An atheist can claim that he only believes what he has observed(or others have observed and documented for him), and over that he has complete authority. A religious person can never claim that.
this is going into alt.atheism.moderated territory, but this isn’t strictly true. some religious people worship god-men, who they believe they’ve seen manifest supernatural powers and properties. so that theism can be based on a factual observation.
Tambrahms from Madras(and I make this specific distinction because the orthodoxy is mostly geographically confined) are among the most segregated and caste-conscious lot. My point and I agree with Noname is that the DK movement was essential for TN. I’d give examples but it boils down to the same… barred from temples, considered polluted etc. The tragedy of the DK movement may well be that it was too successful. The posts of the self described TamBrahm in the post above illustrate the generic need they now feel to feel superior in any fashion at all. I don’t know if anyone has latched onto the social networking site called Orkut. But a look at the posts in the Tambrahm community is quite .. educational. Anywho, what that means is that some of them(and lets be clear on this. I have loads of Tambrahm friends. Not all people are bigoted but I find that very few vocal bigots can give a group a bad name) continue to feel and, more importantly, act superior and consequently get actively disliked by the rest of the populace.
All of this was by way of explaining why the people of TN don’t particularly care about Karunanidhi attacking religion. Quite simply(or if you are so inclined, ‘simbly’) because religion has been used for too long as an instrument of oppression.
331 Arjun
Krishnan… Nehru certainly had many of the ‘right’ ideas about secularism, at least compared to those that followed him. He probably had the ‘right’ ideas about many things…he was an idealistic man. However he missed the fundamental problem with the India he created…the government possessed far to much power over the ordinary lives of people.
–> Those were the times when government intrusion into ordinary lives of people wasnt considered to be that bad. In hindsight, there are lots of reasons why complete separation of church and state should be the goal instead of what we have in India.
336 Ponniyin Selvan
If you read the various pronouncements of various leaders / western reporters around that time not many gave a chance for India with its million divisions to stay a united country after the British left..
–> Isnt one due now ? Amidst the general positive features on India, that book can garner good sales. 🙂
All of this was by way of explaining why the people of TN don’t particularly care about Karunanidhi attacking religion. Quite simply(or if you are so inclined, ‘simbly’) because religion has been used for too long as an instrument of oppression.
Attacking Hinduism not “religion.” The end result is not an enlightened republic of Self Respecters but the Christianization of TN. The Census says 7% but it looks more like 25%. The Christian channels verbally assault Hinduism with impunity, and why shouldn’t they, the politicians do it too. But perhaps Hinduism deserves it. Its funny though that now the Brahmins have left, the “oppressed” continue to marginalize the dalits with utmost impunity.
i think it is perfectly fair to blame Nehru for things after 1947 – 64. he was literally the uncrowned king after patel died and he forced tandon out of the congress leadership.. if you read my comment i blamed the congress for the khilafat not nehru.. he had this paternalistic / patronising feeling about the minorities which i believe was counter productive..
where did u get the number from??.
this is right.. DK/DMK is mistakenly taken as some kinda lower castes taking over from Brahmins.. If you look at the leaders of the Justice party, they are all wealthy landlords / business people etc.. etc.. who are mostly from non Brahmin upper – middle castes.. and that tradition continues till now. They just pushed out the Brahmins..
“JAI HIND, JAI SRI RAM.”
^^^ Wow rediff style comment !
hey bhagwan kya ho raha hain? SM Intern, Anna help!
^^^ with so many athiests around, i doubt He will help. 😛
The lord is facin an identity crisis! hey ram….. LOL!
“This is going into alt.atheism.moderated territory, but this isn’t strictly true. some religious people worship god-men, who they believe they’ve seen manifest supernatural powers and properties. so that theism can be based on a factual observation.””
Razib I don’t think you got my point. It doesnt matter whether they BELIEVE they have seen factual evidence of divinity. An atheist’s facts are different because they must be based on accepted scientific literature.(i.e. the quality of which must pass a strict peer-review process) This is not the same as god-men identifying their dreams as reality.
An atheist’s facts are different because they must be based on accepted scientific literature.(i.e. the quality of which must pass a strict peer-review process)
hm. i disagree with this. atheists can be religious after all, there are variants of hinduism that verge in this direction. and many marxists atheists believe in “facts” (the marxist idea of the end of historical determinism) which i really don’t think have gone through the scientific peer review process. i think you’re conflating atheism with scientific materialism.
I’m a bit of lurker on this site…never commented before, but like reading the articles.
Anyways, Anna, when I read the MT thread I was wondering how a believing Christian would feel after reading some of those posts-and now I think I understand where you were coming from….
But anyways, I was wondering…does “Dravidian” only refer to Tamilians who are non-Brahmin, because Rama is pretty widely worshipped in AP regardless of caste-even small non-brahmin villages often have shrines to Rama, plus there’s several important Rama temples like Bhadrachalam, Lepakshi, Kodandaramaswami, etc…the Kamban Ramayana never made its way north. Venkateshwara is pretty much the patron deity of the state, and Tirumala is technically a Vaishnavite pilgrimage site.
That said, this Karunanidhi guy should at least be consistent-if Murugan is the “Tamil God”, let’s not forget that he owes his origins to the war god of the Shakas and Kushanas-why not garland him with slippers and break his idol? The chief god in the Silappadikaram is Indra-so does that make the epic Aryan? Plus doesn’t Manimegalai convert to Buddhism-another import from the evil Aryan north? The DMK was also outraged once when the TN centre wanted to ban animal sacrifices on the grounds that to ban them would be against Dravidian culture and Aryan imposition-well, weren’t animal sacrifices part of the old Aryan religion, weren’t many of the saints that came from South who spoke out against caste and meaningless ritual against them? In fact, what is pure Dravidian culture?
As far as those saying that Hindu “apologists” try to cast aside any negative practice or ritual as an aberration..why does that make you an apologist? Or is the only way to not be a “real Hindu” is to go back to religion as mentioned in the Rig Veda? What about the various saints throughout the centuries-were they all “apologists” as well-many went against the mainstream in their thinking…are the writers of the Upanishads “apologists” for the Rig Vedic religion? Or do you consider the Upanishads to be outside the realm of Hinduism altogether? There is no precise date for the Manusmriti but everyone knows that the text itself has undergone several different edits and additions as well as deletions from various authors (As is the case with Ramayana)…so then why can’t such things continue today-or in order to practice our faith today, we have to fossilize everything?
I don’t understand why both the extreme right and the left go out of their way to try and portray Hinduism as this giant monolithic entity=one romanticizes it and the other demonizes it, and both try their best to ignore history as much as possible when it doesn’t confer with their world view. What doesn’t fit gets thrown out, and what does is often overstated for maximum possible effect.
Arjun, we all “know” that all things in this world are made of electrons, protons and even smaller particles. Have you personally seen FACTUAL evidence of this with your own eyes (unless you work in Fermi Lab or something, I doubt that you have)? Or did you read about it and BELIEVED it because you have faith in what the scientists say?