So…despite what some might allege, I do NOT keep dosa pr0n up on the main page for an extra long, torturous time, not on purpose, at least. To prove this, I wanted to publish something newer for you mutineers. Off to the News Tab I went…and then I saw this:
Karunanidhi calls Lord Ram a ‘drunkard’, Advani fumes
WOW. Look, I don’t pretend to know about either the Ram Setu controversy OR politics in India, but like any idiot with half-a-functioning brain, I do know (Mandink-aaaa) that it would be disrespectful and hurtful to call a revered religious figure a “drunkard”, especially in uber-devout India. Some of you may be asking, what is going ON over there? Well, for those of you at home who haven’t been following this controversy (coughguiltycough), here’s a brief explanation:
The Sethusamudram Shipping Canal Project proposes linking the Palk Bay and the Gulf of Mannar between India and Sri Lanka by creating a shipping canal through the shallow sea sometimes called Setu Samudram, and through the island chain of Rama’s Bridge, also known as Adam’s Bridge. This would provide a continuous navigable sea route around the Indian Peninsula. The project involves digging a 44.9 nautical mile (83 km) long deepwater channel linking the shallow water of the Palk Strait with the Gulf of Mannar. Conceived as early as 1860 by Alfred Dundas Taylor, it recently received approval of the Indian government. [wiki]
According to the Hindu scripture Ramayana and beliefs, Sri Rama and His Vaanar Sena built a bridge from Rameshwaram to Sri Lanka thousands of years ago. Some Hindu organizations and religious figures, including the Shankaracharya of Puri, have opposed the project, pointing out that it would destroy the “Ram Setu”.
Others have opposed the project on environmental grounds, and fears of the effect it will have on the livelihood of some 20 million fisherfolk in the coastal districts.
The Union government admitted in late 2007 that there was no historical evidence to establish the existence of Ram or the other idols in Ramayana. In an affidavit filed before the apex court, the Archaeological Survey of India too rejected the claim of the existence of the Ram Sethu bridge in the area where the project was under construction. A day later, the affidavit was withdrawn under pressure from Hindu fundamentalist parties. However, the State government of Tamil Nadu continue to maintain its official stance and refused to review the project. [wiki]
Got all that? Good.
The Chief Minister of Lemuria, Karunanidhi, is an atheist. That is why he is extra vexed about any religious-based objections to this shipping canal. A Senior Leader of the BJP, Lal Krishna Advani, thinks Karunanidhi has got some nerve on him.
The war of words over the Ram Setu degenerated into a bitter slander match on Thursday with Tamil Nadu Chief Minister M Karunanidhi calling Lord Ram a ‘drunkard’ and a ‘big lie’.
Karunanidhi reacted with these bitter words after senior BJP leader Lal Krishna Advani on Thursday asked him to withdraw his statement about Ram, saying “people at the helm of affairs do not force contempt on others as far as religious affairs are concerned.â€
“I want the Tamil Nadu CM to withdraw his statement about Ram. I respect Karunanidhi for being an atheist. But people at the helm of affairs do not force contempt on others as far as religious affairs are concerned,†Advani, the Leader of the Opposition in Lok Sabha, said…[IBN]
…to which, the Chief Minister replied…
Karunanidhi shot back in no time, saying he remains firm on his stand. “I will not withdraw my statement.“
“Ram is as big a lie as big as the truth of the existence of the Ganges and the Himalayas,” he said. The TN Chief Minister even went on to call Lord Ram a ‘drunkard’.
“Even Valmiki has said that Ram was a drunkard. I urge Advani to get into a debate with me after reading Valmiki’s Ramayana,” Karunanidhi said.[IBN]
Oh, my.
Lately, Ram Setu has popped up on at least one SM thread, specifically the uproar over calling Ram fictional or mythical:
In the wake of the Ram Setu controversy, Karunanidhi had described Lord Ram as a ‘mythical hero’ and vowed to not go back on the Sethusamudram project.
“Is there any proof of Ram having built the bridge, or that he had the engineering expertise… There was no person in the name of Ram. The story of Ram is authored by Valmiki in Ramayana. There are so many things that Valmiki has said about Ram,” Karunanidhi said.[IBN]
I do believe that at one inappropriately hilarious moment during this fustercluck, Karunanidhi tried to make a point by asking where Ram went to engineering school? What the…? I mean, obviously he went to IIT. Just like Jesus went to Harvard.
No, seriously, what kind of pointless, snickering question is THAT? And doesn’t this man value his LIFE? Or, I don’t know, his family’s?
On Tuesday evening, Karunanidhi daughter Selvi’s house in Bangalore was attacked by unidentified miscreants in a development that was seen as a fallout of his comments. Karunanidhi slammed the attackers, saying “they showed the culture of Ram Bhaktas (worshippers). I treat these things like a speck of dust. I welcome such opposition.â€
He likes to talk some smack, doesn’t he? Yowza.
”The Ram Sevaks have proved their culture. I reiterate what I had said. There is no historical proof that Rama existed or of the bridge been built,” he said.[IBN]
I know that some of you are outraged over this (and I sympathize completely…I may not be of the same faith, but I’m a person OF faith), so I hope we can all take a collective deep breath before discussing this. I know I’m not the only one who is interested in reading what some of you have to say.
regarding comments of 6-4 Scythian: would someone who puts Gujarat in “southern India” really know much about India? Or perhaps just have a poor sense of direction. I don’t know about all this Scythian stuff– at least in theory, their presence had too wide a range for descendency claims to have much meaning. Looks like everybody from Ireland to Bangladesh could find a few in their family tree. Just a matter of degree.
razib, “most humans are stupid, and they’re born that way.”
Thanks–now I understand why I feel so alone.
tb @ 249, i think you are mistaking our (ABD) opinions for a perception that we might have (substantial) political clout. yes, politicians are really only responsible to their constituents. but karunanidhi did make a statement that impacts the sentiments of all hindus – wherever they may reside. i don’t expect my comments to require politicians to act ina different way – but what prevnts anybody from expressing an opinion on any topic, esp. ones that affect something that is so personal? and in any case, this is not much different than editorials in indian newspapers re the american government (on issues that both do and do not impact indians) – i think all the opinions should be considered – some may have high value for policy, regardless of from which country’s citizens they come.
and i hypothesised that he found it unusual possibly because christianity doesn’t have magical creatures/talking animals etc. front and center just as much.
There’s Balaam the talking donkey in the old testament. Jewish and Christian scholars argue that it is only a metaphorical talking donkey, but if you’re a literalist, you’re stuck with the notion that God speaks from an Ass.
Don’t Muslims believe that Mohammad ascended to heaven on the back of a fire breathing donkey with wings? (Conveniently from the site of the Al Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem, which was identified when the Muslims had conquered that city, hundreds and hundreds of miles from where he actually died)
I can’t watch the talking donkey in the Shrek movies voiced by Eddie Murphy without thinking of this.
This winged donkey even had a name. He was called Buraq. And so Mohammad ascended to heaven on the back of an ass. Sounds like a Hindu thing, flying animals and the such like. But nothing really beats Hinduism’s armies of monkey warriors. But a flying ass comes close.
I messed my quotes up. The bottom half of the last comment is mine. Maybe Buraq cursed me or something.
I will not feed the troll I will not feed the troll I will not feed the troll
Correction: Balaam isn’t the name of the biblical talking donkey. Balaam is the gentile magician that the donkey talked to.
The talking donkey has no name.
I’m late to this thread, as usual.
Karthik:
Way late, I know. But it’s not necessarily an atheist’s goal to offend as many people as possible. You know that.
I think Razib did a pretty good job of explaining it all. Nice analysis.
Onto this point being made later on. My question is, when did the term for donkeys ever become conflated with the term for posteriors? Why are they both “asses?” What’s up with that? I think the only reason the concept of “God speaking from an ass” would be remotely offensive or blasphemous is that the term can be used either way. Otherwise, it’s god talking from a donkey, which is slightly ridiculous, but hey, donkeys are great animals. And there were probably a lot of them around in the Old Testament, you know?
I guess this would be the equivalent of God talking from a Nissan Maxima with chromed rims in Southern California. It’d be fairly miraculous either way, you know what I’m saying?
99 chachaji
Since this thread is at least partly about Karunanidhi’s person and personality – I’ve always been curious why he (and MGR before him) always wear dark glasses all the time, including indoors. It’s one of the things about him that irritates me – irrationally, of course :)Anybody care to share some wisdom in the matter?
–> From what I have heard, both had issues with their eyes. MGR used sunglasses to build up his image while MK used it to neutralize MGR’s image.
244 Ponniyin Selvan
Well, I like how this is playing out.. I think Congress is in a bind as it has to worry about the “Aryan north” which Karunanidhi can coolly ignore. And BJP is milking it to what is worth. Just point out Manmohan / Sonia / Ambika Soni are all non-Hindus and how they have denigrated Ram and reap the dividends..
–> (My speculation)I think BJP and ADMK will get together, DMK and left will get together and Congress will get together with PMK and MDMK.
248 Ponniyin Selvan
Thinking back, I have a vague remembrance that I studied some verses from the “Raavana kaaviyam” (praising Ravana) in my Tamil class when I was a kid along with “Kamba ramayanam” Kamban’s version of Ramayana.
–> Do you know where I can get this ? I have been trying to get hold of it for some time with no luck.
250 my_dog_jagat
(I have Tam bram hardware–software is some mixture of Anglo, North-Indian, brahmin, global fusion).
–> From what I have seen of SM, the caste identity seems to be hyper among tamil section(with exceptions, of course), lots of them proudly self-identifying themselves as tambram.
Divya #238… i love your comment, totally agree. sometimes i wish there was a tradition in hinduism of reading texts and questioning them like in judaism. (maybe there is and i’m just not aware of it?)
hee. …i’m off to call some relatives.
That would make me a ‘TelKam.’ somehow, it just doesn’t have the same ring to it.
Is this getting sensationalized by misleading headlines/news by media ( including this SM post ). Karunanidhi did not call Ram a drunkard. What I gather from the reports is that, he said something like, if you believe everything written by Valmiki about Ram, then you should also believe when Valmiki said Ram is drunkard.
So its Valmiki who calls Ram a drunkard not Karunanidhi , who just used it as a debating point.
I don’t know where in Ramayana Valmiki says this, it will be interesting to find out.
LOL!, well you need to popularize the term a lot more…. we can even have ‘telchow’ or ‘telred’
telkam = telchow. (uh, right? i don’t know $hit, like is there actually a difference between the customs of kammas and reddys except for being born into one family or the other (and one dominating telugu cinema)). but anyway, neither sound very good.
The donkey with no name. How mystical.
Aw, Manju misses Rahul. 🙂
Just want you all to know that even though I am 6 ft 4 in tall, I think height-ism is totally unfair and ridiculous…
Well the differences between a brahmin and a lot of non brahmin cases can actually be , in some case, as severe as those between two people of different religions. My sis married a Telugu brahmin which ended in divorce. We are Telugu kamma. Geez. the differences in customs and his parents orthodoxy killed the marriage.
My best friend is a Tamil brahmin. But I notice a big difference between his behavior and the other Tamil brahmin DBDs who go to college here in the US.
I agree with Nala on the kamma – reddy crap. We have plenty of Reddy friends. I cannot identify a single cultural difference between the families. NOT ONE. Yet these morons have two telugu associations becasue they cannot get along.
Krishnan:
I guess it’s a famous book. isn’t it available in stores??. You can try the book fair during Pongal in Chennai.. Or you can contact the DK folks. they would be more than interested to help you. 🙂 I read their newspaper often and the sunday edition carries stories from Hindu Puranas (generally with a lot of ridicule). It’s fun.
http://www.viduthalai.com
link
. . .
Nala, about ‘Telkam’… Actually, that correlation makes a lot of sense to me, as I have noticed that there is an unusually large number of very tall people among this group of people…
The only other difference I can think of is that Reddys tend to put Reddy as their last name and their more specific family name as their middle name. Yeah, not a real big cultural difference… it’s more a source of amusement among 2nd gens. (But, in my family’s social circle, it seems like more reddys immigrated as doctors and are filthy rich, whereas more kammas immigrated as IT professionals and are solidly upper middle class. but it’s not like that’s a big class/cultural difference anyway. BUT it does seem to me like reddy families in the U.S. are more westernized, maybe because they were richer to begin with upon immigrating/more likely to be from richer families in andhra. i’m just wildly extrapolating based on what i’ve seen among family friends btw.) While the Telugu community in the NY area is friendly outside of cultural organization politics, I’ve noticed people are closer with people of their own caste (and district/region of origin, to a lesser extent) than with others. …and this is what I have to show for weekend after weekend being spent at boring Telugu house parties for most of middle & high school.
Once I asked my mom what the difference between kammas and reddys is, and all she said was ‘kamma is k-a-m-m-a and reddy is r-e-d-d-y.’ LOL. but she still holds on to some farfetched dream of me marrying a kamma boy from Guntur… haha yeah right. even her aunt, when she visited the U.S. from india, thought it was ridiculous that people still hold on to kamma/reddy, telangana, etc. feelings.
My aunt married a Reddy back in the 80s, and while her mother-in-law probably would’ve been horrible to her anyway, she has been so so much worse because of the caste (& class, my aunt from a rural background vs. her husband’s family settled in Hyderabad earlier) difference ever since. And my first boyfriend was a reddy (our families are friends) and it was probably pretty obvious to everyone what was going on, and his mother still hates me. and i’m still scared of her. she’s pretty close to the bottom of my ‘auntie rankings.’
unfortunately, my immediate famils isn’t among them!
There have been some statements to the effect that Karunanadhi would attack any god as an atheist. The man is also a pragmatist….he has stayed away, as far as I know, from insulting the gods that are the primary focus of non-Tambram worship. The worship of Muruga, the various village goddesses affiliated with Shakti, and Shiva in temples officiated by pandarams (i.e. as opposed to Brahmins) have never been attacked by any of the “Dravidian Rationalist” parties. If anyone has references that contradict this, please let me know…..
uh, that would be my family. i don’t know what famils are…
Yes, i think that’s right.. That fits in with the local gods / foreign gods theory (mini version of Savarkar’s larger version) .. Muruga is the local god whereas Rama is the Aryan god. I have read that Muruga is the local god for tamils with his tribal wife Valli and he has been absorbed by the Hindu pantheon by making him “subramanya” son of Siva and was given another wife deivanai.. plus all the important pilgrimage places for muruga lies within Tamil nadu.
yeah, that’s what my father thinks too. non-brahmins outnumber brahmins by a lot, and generally only brahmins pray to rama in tamil nadu apparently.
…i still think it’s tactless, and i’d like for the ‘bridge’ to be preserved as a cultural artifact at least (i kind of doubt that it would help trade THAT much, plus there’s the environmental damage that people mentioned upthread). don’t people on the sri lankan side make pilgrimages there, worship it, etc.? has the sri lankan government agreed to getting rid of the bridge/whatever it is, or is it exclusively tamil nadu’s decision?
Votebank politics basically…. DMK would not dare to demolish temples n statues of the various ‘amman’ temples in villages fearin a backlash. But will go on the offensive against the so-called-tambram-gods, as the tambram community doesn’t bite. I wonder how most ‘Pillayar’ temples are untouched?
There is more to it, that Karunanidhi is questioning Rama because he is an atheist.
One,
He is trying to preempt any political capital BJP might get in South. Some of the RSS ideologue are now supporting the project, providied Ram Setu/ Adam’s Bridge is untouched, or minimally touched.
Second,
Sethusamundram Canal Project actually benefits Tamil Nadu a lot, and he is not going let the possible economic benefits away in political musical chairs.
The most important Muruga (Skanda) shrine is in Sri Lanka where it is believed the God actually resides.
http://www.kataragama.org
Cant resist, Would i get ‘TelKam powder’ if i grind some TelKams ? Ah, & ek TelKam vada pav dena ! 😛
🙂 Telkam vada pav mein kya mazaa?
So is Venkateshwara worship considered part of Vaishnavism. And how come he is not considered an avatar of Vishnu? Because he was not reborn as a baby but just changed forms as an adult?
well.. the “aru padai veedu” (6 temples) are all in Tamil nadu. I agree that “kadirgamam” is a famous Muruga temple.. but most important, i doubt it..
The most important maybe for Jaffna Tamils & Karagama’s Buddhist devotees. For us Indian Tamils, Palani is the holiest Muruga site
Wat abt ‘palani malai’?
“Telkam vada pav mein kya mazaa?”
Koi mazaa nahi 🙂 but, I thought some of the trans fat conscious might like that. FYI, they do serve vadapav with whole wheat pav.
The worship of Muruga, the various village goddesses affiliated with Shakti, and Shiva in temples officiated by pandarams (i.e. as opposed to Brahmins) have never been attacked by any of the “Dravidian Rationalist” parties. If anyone has references that contradict this, please let me know…..
The Self-Respect openly attacked the (non-Brahmin) Shaiva Siddhanta aadheenams and got good lip back from them. See a book called “Notes Towards a Non-Brahmin Millenium”
The problem with valorizing Ravana as a dravidian “hero” is the fact that he’s a brahmin himself!
Quoting risible:
True. I quote below from an article on TamilNation (which is NOT an endorsement of TamilNation):
I suppose that one bathes in “Brahmin bath water” before applying TelKam powder on oneself? 😀
The recorded history of our species (human) cultural identity probably goes back to – say may be 10,000 years or so. It is amazing how few so-called ABD’s and most DBD’s still carry the baggage of yester year and get into discussions (sometime vehemently) when it comes to my God or your God. Don’t you think it’s time for us all to grow up and get a life, and stay away from silly disussions once for all. Ther is a bold new world out there, and the poor frog can only see the rim of the well!! I am just saying !!
Well for all the Indian Tamil pilgrims I’ve met at Kataragama it’s the most important shrine.
Amen, Yo Dad! Can I get a halleleujeah!? 😀
Or an equally fervent non-religious term?
Human societies of every level of technological advancement have had, and still have something analogous to ‘religion-culture-mythology’. It can lead to a silly discussion pretty quickly, as we have seen on this thread, but let us recognize that it does in fact fill a socio-cultural and psychological human need, and arises spontaneously in all human societies. People have, of course, fought over ‘religion’, so at some point it does become completely counterproductive, and let us oppose that, when it happens. Similarly, I would stridently oppose any organized religion that captures government and discriminates at an individual or group level, but still recognize that at an individual and social level, some good can come out of ‘religion’.
So the sensible response would be not to wish it away or replace it with a ‘scientific rationalism’ (partly because that will not explain everything that needs explaining, ever) – rather, to acknowledge religion as a separate, but inescapable, and probably necessary part of human life. Larger issues (such as the Sethusamudram project) need not be hostage to such religious belief, but that does not mean ‘atheists’ of any stripe should gratuitously insult people’s religious belief either.
you make no sense… (i.e. in case you weren’t saying something totally random :P)
Well said (as always), Chachaji. 🙂
chachaji, Thank you for injecting some sensitivity into this discussion. Someone mentioned this earlier: The last thing I’d like to see is to have SM becoming like rediff message boards …
I know plenty of wonderful people who are deeply religious. I know plenty of other wonderful people who are atheists. I’d hate to take a stance one way or the other and condemn either group outright.
But they insult / deride / kick against religion with a religious convert’s zeal, funny that eh?
Scientific rationalism has never claimed to “explain” everything. I am not sure about the other counterpart!Let us not confuse Sprituality with being Religious. The intent was not to insult or belittle religious or (even) atheist folks. It is just that it is time to rise above these petty diffrences in opinion and look at the broader picture. Let us toast to each his/her own cup of tea, or shall I say “dosa”, could we?
My apologies to chachaji(and if it happens, a completely unnecessary side thread on religion and its uses per se).
Human societies of every level of technological advancement have had, and still have something analogous to ‘thievery’. It can lead to a silly discussion pretty quickly, as we have seen on this thread, but let us recognize that it does in fact fill a socio-cultural and psychological human need, and arises spontaneously in all human societies. People have, of course, fought over ‘thievery’, so at some point it does become completely counterproductive, and let us oppose that, when it happens. Similarly, I would stridently oppose any organized thievery that captures government and discriminates at an individual or group level, but still recognize that at an individual and social level, some good can come out of ‘thievery’.
So the sensible response would be not to wish it away or replace it with a ‘organized police protection’ (partly because that will not solve everything that needs solution, ever) – rather, to acknowledge thievery as a separate, but inescapable, and probably necessary part of human life. Larger issues (such as arrest of celebrities) need not be hostage to such thievery belief, but that does not mean ‘athieverists’ of any stripe should gratuitously insult people’s thievery belief either.
Razib@#19 in his point #2..
I think atheists being a minority is hardly fundamental enough to be a “fact of this universe”.
It seems to me that religion is just a hangover of the medieval ages (most of its principles and tenets, etc. were roughly from around time when humankind probably just achieved literacy or some sort of a widely prevalent linguistic ability, etc. and I don’t deny that they probably were strategic enough for that time, and even made sense considering the reality back then…) But unfortunately for religion, the fact that its principles can never be changed was set in stone and this rigidness that it brought upon itself will make it more and more absurd and out of place as time progresses and humankind advances. This is even evident through statistics and although not yet quite the norm, I gather that atheists are a very rapidly growing group(probably the most rapidly growing group, if I’m not mistaken). Even those who claim they are religious now, I believe, would have been a 100 times more so if only they lived like 500 years ago… So, I don’t agree with your view that atheism is universally a minority (in a timeless sense) or atheistic proclivity is privy only to specially designed human brains. And I am fairly convinced that, say 500 years down the line or something, “religion” will only come up while studying the historical development of human civilizations…