So…despite what some might allege, I do NOT keep dosa pr0n up on the main page for an extra long, torturous time, not on purpose, at least. To prove this, I wanted to publish something newer for you mutineers. Off to the News Tab I went…and then I saw this:
Karunanidhi calls Lord Ram a ‘drunkard’, Advani fumes
WOW. Look, I don’t pretend to know about either the Ram Setu controversy OR politics in India, but like any idiot with half-a-functioning brain, I do know (Mandink-aaaa) that it would be disrespectful and hurtful to call a revered religious figure a “drunkard”, especially in uber-devout India. Some of you may be asking, what is going ON over there? Well, for those of you at home who haven’t been following this controversy (coughguiltycough), here’s a brief explanation:
The Sethusamudram Shipping Canal Project proposes linking the Palk Bay and the Gulf of Mannar between India and Sri Lanka by creating a shipping canal through the shallow sea sometimes called Setu Samudram, and through the island chain of Rama’s Bridge, also known as Adam’s Bridge. This would provide a continuous navigable sea route around the Indian Peninsula. The project involves digging a 44.9 nautical mile (83 km) long deepwater channel linking the shallow water of the Palk Strait with the Gulf of Mannar. Conceived as early as 1860 by Alfred Dundas Taylor, it recently received approval of the Indian government. [wiki]
According to the Hindu scripture Ramayana and beliefs, Sri Rama and His Vaanar Sena built a bridge from Rameshwaram to Sri Lanka thousands of years ago. Some Hindu organizations and religious figures, including the Shankaracharya of Puri, have opposed the project, pointing out that it would destroy the “Ram Setu”.
Others have opposed the project on environmental grounds, and fears of the effect it will have on the livelihood of some 20 million fisherfolk in the coastal districts.
The Union government admitted in late 2007 that there was no historical evidence to establish the existence of Ram or the other idols in Ramayana. In an affidavit filed before the apex court, the Archaeological Survey of India too rejected the claim of the existence of the Ram Sethu bridge in the area where the project was under construction. A day later, the affidavit was withdrawn under pressure from Hindu fundamentalist parties. However, the State government of Tamil Nadu continue to maintain its official stance and refused to review the project. [wiki]
Got all that? Good.
The Chief Minister of Lemuria, Karunanidhi, is an atheist. That is why he is extra vexed about any religious-based objections to this shipping canal. A Senior Leader of the BJP, Lal Krishna Advani, thinks Karunanidhi has got some nerve on him.
The war of words over the Ram Setu degenerated into a bitter slander match on Thursday with Tamil Nadu Chief Minister M Karunanidhi calling Lord Ram a ‘drunkard’ and a ‘big lie’.
Karunanidhi reacted with these bitter words after senior BJP leader Lal Krishna Advani on Thursday asked him to withdraw his statement about Ram, saying “people at the helm of affairs do not force contempt on others as far as religious affairs are concerned.â€
“I want the Tamil Nadu CM to withdraw his statement about Ram. I respect Karunanidhi for being an atheist. But people at the helm of affairs do not force contempt on others as far as religious affairs are concerned,†Advani, the Leader of the Opposition in Lok Sabha, said…[IBN]
…to which, the Chief Minister replied…
Karunanidhi shot back in no time, saying he remains firm on his stand. “I will not withdraw my statement.“
“Ram is as big a lie as big as the truth of the existence of the Ganges and the Himalayas,” he said. The TN Chief Minister even went on to call Lord Ram a ‘drunkard’.
“Even Valmiki has said that Ram was a drunkard. I urge Advani to get into a debate with me after reading Valmiki’s Ramayana,” Karunanidhi said.[IBN]
Oh, my.
Lately, Ram Setu has popped up on at least one SM thread, specifically the uproar over calling Ram fictional or mythical:
In the wake of the Ram Setu controversy, Karunanidhi had described Lord Ram as a ‘mythical hero’ and vowed to not go back on the Sethusamudram project.
“Is there any proof of Ram having built the bridge, or that he had the engineering expertise… There was no person in the name of Ram. The story of Ram is authored by Valmiki in Ramayana. There are so many things that Valmiki has said about Ram,” Karunanidhi said.[IBN]
I do believe that at one inappropriately hilarious moment during this fustercluck, Karunanidhi tried to make a point by asking where Ram went to engineering school? What the…? I mean, obviously he went to IIT. Just like Jesus went to Harvard.
No, seriously, what kind of pointless, snickering question is THAT? And doesn’t this man value his LIFE? Or, I don’t know, his family’s?
On Tuesday evening, Karunanidhi daughter Selvi’s house in Bangalore was attacked by unidentified miscreants in a development that was seen as a fallout of his comments. Karunanidhi slammed the attackers, saying “they showed the culture of Ram Bhaktas (worshippers). I treat these things like a speck of dust. I welcome such opposition.â€
He likes to talk some smack, doesn’t he? Yowza.
”The Ram Sevaks have proved their culture. I reiterate what I had said. There is no historical proof that Rama existed or of the bridge been built,” he said.[IBN]
I know that some of you are outraged over this (and I sympathize completely…I may not be of the same faith, but I’m a person OF faith), so I hope we can all take a collective deep breath before discussing this. I know I’m not the only one who is interested in reading what some of you have to say.
TMD,C: I hope you are referring to short bus special.
BTW since when is Ram not hip in North India, Scythian territory?
and i hypothesised that he found it unusual possibly because christianity doesn’t have magical creatures/talking animals etc. front and center just as much.
in genesis there are allusions (‘there were great ones upon the earth,’ and the obvious allusion to semi-divine beings which arose from the copulation of demi-gods with human women). there is also part of genesis where there is a reference to the ‘great one of jacob.’ a close examination of the translation implies that another hebrew meaning was probably ‘the bull of jacob,’ implying that jacob worshipped an animal (bull) god (this is like references to ‘washing feet’ in genesis, ‘feet’ was a euphimism for genitals, which is why women are washing their husbands feet before getting to ‘know them’). this sort of thing was scrubbed out of post-exilic judaism, though seraphim and cherubs still have some bestial aspects.
heh. i was just thinking about that – another one of the moments in high school global studies that made me feel extremely uncomfortable.
Runa – no, you’re not the only one. I was thinking that it was because my skin isn’t that thick yet, but at least someone else feels the same way!
Runa not everything u mentioned irked me , but you are not alone !
“Honestly I’m still trying to understand the place of ritual in Hinduism and whether I ‘believe’ in it or not.”
The practicing Hindu is ultimately a yogi (someone who yolks himself to God by practicing dharma). The rituals are designed to help us do this. Think about the rituals: Raksha Bandan, Diwali, Wedding Rituals, cremation, etc. They all the lay out a path for how to behave and what is proper dharma. If your life is full of events that need rituals you’re probably following dharma (getting married, having kids, opening businesses, etc) and if your life has very few events that call for rituals than you’re doing something wrong.
But some traditions say that the rituals are unnecesary. The Bhagavad-Gita says that the rituals can be useful but the ultimate goal is not the rituals itself but to become one with God. So if you become a total devotee of Krishna, and follow him wholeheartedly, you can forgoe the rituals, and become one with God.
These are just broad outlines. Whole books can be written on the topic of rituals in Hinduism.
though seraphim and cherubs still have some bestial aspects.
ah, and the winged form of these may come form babylonian paganism (via zoroastrianism). take a look are pictures of marduk idols and the court which surrounds him. god before his angels.
nala et al., Thx.–I’m not naive enough to think there aren’t any 6’4″ Desis, just (1) can’t say I recall ever knowing any & (2)I’m unclear on what this “Scythian” group is, really (I just know Scythians as a historical group–not sure what it means in modern context, anymore than a white person saying “I’m a Visigoth”–if I’m behind the curve, I apologize, but I’m open to learning something).
runa, thanks for the response. i think atheists (like me) get off easy because misanthropy is more permissible than discriminating hatred (like misogyny :-).
razib, i knew you would mine your omniscience 🙂 about religion for examples, thanks! and seraphims and cherubs did occur to me, but they don’t have primary importance in the most important stories/tales (at least in christianity today) and where cherubs are portrayed (in medieval paintings, for example), they are usually very human-like.
6’4 scythian is a joking troll people. just an fyi if you don’t know.
Yes you are right in a way…they get rid of all “negative rituals” as aberrations and retain “harmless” ones which can be argued for in meta-physical terms. Then comes what is the meaning of being religious ?…just closing your eye and folding your hands in your house or temple. Is that being religious in a secular way ? External symbolism is as much a part of religious and rituals is “Hindu” way of “cultural” expression your religion.
6-4ScythianMale = Rahul = SpoorLam
Nope.
(hmm i really don’t want to continue with this lab report)… so anyway, one example where ritual doesn’t make much sense to me is when it comes to Sai Baba followers. (& I say this coming from a Sai Baba-worshipping background). I’m aware that there are also Muslim followers of Sai Baba, but in terms of the Hindu context that I was raised in… even if Sai Baba (I’m talking about Shirdi Sai Baba here, don’t want to get into Sathya Sai Baba right now) was a saint, does it make sense to pray to him (perform pooja, have idols of him, etc.) and make offerings to him? Why not just follow his teachings? Or did his sainthood elevate him to godliness? …I really don’t mind ritual (pooja) that much though, b/c I love the songs. I just don’t fully understand it.
Whew! Rahul is cool; 6-4 Scythian Male is just weird–I knew some white kids at school who talked about being “followers of Odin,” etc.–is the Scythian thing essentially the same sort of juvenalia…
holy crap, I wanted to say so much but so much more has already been said, ANNA do you really get to read ALL the comments? Of course I know your 1000+ treasures but they were topics more entertaining(at least the datings were), this one is provocative(in a +ve way), reflective, sensitive and interesting… good work, will try to contribute useful info in comments early on from now
Regarding the Amar Chitra comic thing, I was addressing the people up in arms against Karunanidhi’s family(man I hate typing his name, gives my fingers a workout). If you noticed, I have never bashed anyone’s belief in God in the many religious blog entries that show up on SepiaMutiny. But if someone attacks someone’s family for a flippant God comment, then I will not show hold back too much in going after them. And if it just so happens that other people who read those comments happen to share the same beliefs of the people I attack, then I can’t help it. When you see a blog entry about religious conflict, you have to expect some of the comments to be skeptical of your belief and I expect the same.
That is different from me just making the same comments on a blog entry by someone who feels the need to praise the glory of Gods and how much a festival means to them.
Another point. When people go on about how great God is or whatever, you do not see us getting outraged that we feel our decision not to believe in a conventional God is being questioned. It doesn’t offend us when you say God exists. So when we say God doesn’t exist, it shouldn’t shatter your faith.
Personally, I find religion very interesting. And if a God did exist, I would be happy about it. There is no hatred for any of your Gods from some of us agnostics or atheists.
Nala, dont mind people who are condescending to you. Just throw the whole creationism thing back at them. That will shut them up.
Oh yeah, I do call myself a Hindu kind of like some of my secular Jewish friends call themselves Jewish. I think it’s a source of some great literature and interesting philosophies.
And for the guy who claimed he never saw a 6 4 Desi, they are not that uncommon. I am pretty close to that height and I got a relative who is that height.
Pravin- I actually consider myself agnostic right now 🙂
Pravin, I was kind of hesitant to respond to dravidian lurker because I wanted to avoid precisely this. I read your follow up comments to the original one and know what you were trying to say.My issue was with the way some stuff was phrased – and not just by you – and not with what was said.
Wouldn’t be much of faith if it got shattered by what someone said, would it ? Rest assured – I am neither mortally wounded nor questioning my ‘faith ‘ or your lack of 🙂
And for the guy who claimed he never saw a 6 4 Desi, they are not that uncommon. I am pretty close to that height and I got a relative who is that height.
i saw a few in college.
@FYI:
Those arguements are exactly the type of po-mo nonsense I was refering to.
How does symbolically lighting a lamp, for instance, to get rid of ignorance lead to one acquiring knowledge in real life.
This kind of also the problem with astrology, voodoo dolls, and cargo cults. Just becuase you attach symbolic value to something doesn’t mean it has any direct impact on real life at all.
I was very excited at the prospect of Hindus making rational arguements for a change.
There are no boundaries only clines. Non-muslim Kashmiris (i.e. real ones, not Punjabi tribes like Gujjars who live in ‘Azad Kashmir’) have the most Scythian adamixture, but it is present even in South Indian states like Gujarat and eastern states like Uttar Pradesh. In addition to the geographic cline there is also a social cline with those with higher standing generally posessing a greater amount of Scythian adamixture.
If you want an extreme example consider the 6’4″ Bengali film maker Satyajit Ray.
Anyways I am well known on Sepia Mutiny for taking time out of my busy schedule to make well thought out and serious comments relevant to the topic of discussion.
The SM Intern gets no pay and about as much freedom as a Sri Lankan maid working in the gulf. Out of humanitarian concern let us not stray from the topic of religion. Thx.
Um…No Gujarat = Western state Uttar means`”North” .UP is considered part of North India
Um..No
Uhh-that’s me! What % of Desi males do you think are 6’4″ or above? Methinks you are losing a concept here, namely the distiction between “not uncommon” (e.g., c. 7%) and “quite rare indeed.” (e.g., <1%). Me, I like to maintain distinctions and the ordinary language meaning of words.
last post should have ended with: (e.g., <1%)–me, I like to maintain distinctions and the ordinary language meaning of words.
uhh–0K–1st prize for not making sense & not being funny either.
razib in #70:
c) so trust me, faith that the promised age is coming will be in vain
That is spot on. Speaking of the BeyondBelief discussions, I found Melvin Konner’s (hope I got the name right) approach quite practical and wise. The likes of Dawkins and Sam Harris may well be right, but they’re probably pursuing goals that cannot be achieved. The idea should be to limit the damage caused by (irrational?) belief, not eliminate it altogether (probably impossible).
BTW, I think the Kalaignar is a first rate scoundrel not unlike many politicians in India. His so-called atheism and attacks on religion are nothing but laughable posturing, not principled stands – his target is deliberate and well chosen. As someone else pointed out, not a lot should be expected from someone who names his son Stalin – though he wouldn’t be unique in this. There a lot of people in India who were named after assorted historical figures, including Gandhi, Nehru, Stalin and even Tito. Something to do with the leftist brainwashing a couple of generations were subjected to methinks.
My geographic descriptions are normalized to our ancient Scythian princely states not the modern day replublic India.
Why are people so offended my my name ? If you feel less threatend I can change it to 5-4SensitiveJatt.
On the height thing: The median height for Scythian males is only 6’2″, my father was only 5’11”, I even used to know a Scythian guy who was 5’8 but I think he had some kind of genetic disorder. It’s not like being a Scythian is a function of height, we also use other factors like skin color, athleticism, large ball size (males), large breast size(females), and professional qualifications.
I even consider the Tamil Nadu Chief Minister, M Karunanidhi to embody elements of the Scythian spirit. Lets stick to the topic. Thx.
LOL! OK, you are just a jokester! not in Rahul’s class (or, if same person, need to work on this personality, compared to the Rahul one). I guess I just felt intimidated by the fearsome prospect of a tall alpha-male! back to the pind with you, where your size will aid your horse-breeding or other pastoral pursuits. Luckily, us non-Scythians are no longer just “dirt-scratchers,” so your future nomadic raids will be met with aerosolized fuel-bombs! 😉
large ball size (males),
keep your balls, we bongs have our strength in cock length.
Other than the religious and environmental debate, the security aspects have to be looked at. With Northern Sri Lanka under LTTE rule and civil strife in Sri Lanka, would it be for safe for ships to use a completed canal without the LTTE attacking them. Also I read in a newspaper article that Panamax and Suezmax ships would still circumnavigate Sri Lanka.
This congress government is getting into some serious trouble along with its allies. I think these things are going to hunt them down – not long from now. I used to remember the slogan of “India Shining” from Pramod Mahajan and that partly led to the downfall of BJP. I do not understand in what sense Lord Ram became a “drunkard”. This fellow Karuna looks like a thug to me. I am from the East. His behavior, look, manners are so bad that I feel like puking.
Yes – Tamilians are Shivaites. However, they have also deep respect for Vaisnavas. This ugly thug needs to educate himself – possibly in hell in his next life.
This ugly thug needs to educate himself – possibly in hell in his next life.
an unoffensive sentiment so long as he isn’t hurried onward 😉
Advani, who is currently being investigated by the Liberhan Commission for his role in the destruction of the Babri Masjid, is the one who’s got “some nerve,” for managing to pull of a line like this: “But people at the helm of affairs do not force contempt on others as far as religious affairs are concerned.â€
When the Sangh is in charge, disputes over religious monuments get settled instantly with pickaxes, crow bars, bulldozers and cans of petrol — Karunanidhi’s grandstanding is, by comparison, perfectly diplomatic.
Razib and nand Kishore
Eliminating irrationality and stupidity is not an unacheivable goal..Its a slow and tedious process unlike Islamic Jihad,Christian Crusades,etc( all dumbass religions in the world included).
condone stupid irrational behavior by just saying that \”it\’s all right as long as they don\’t affect me\”.This ofcousrse does come as an incendiary remark but an unbeliever , rationalist will almost never suicide bomb, or lynch,or flay or sacrifice or circumcise or \”God\” knows what attrocity I left out.
Like the great Steven weinberg said It take s a good person to do good things and an evil person to do evil things But it takes religion for a perfectly good person to do things that are evil.
Not verbatim but very true.
PLese ,intelligent people,please discourage,ridicule and hence help banish the evil of religon
This Karunanidhi guy is the number one LTTE supporter in Tamil Nadu along with others like Nedumaran and Vaiko. I think he has gone senile in his old age (yes that sounds rude but anyone watching him speak will come to a similar conclusion). From supporting the Tamil Tigers, to attacking Hindi speakers, to denigrating Hindu religious figures and persecuting Brahmins, this man has done it all. He is disliked in Sri Lanka and lets hope disliked at least outside of the borders of Tamil Nadu in India as well.
Razib #19 was a great analysis.
I am an agnostic… I feel Hindu… but care two hoots for Ram, and am sick of the bridge business, and dravidian politicians(I am mallu… sick of communism too), and the BJP and Soniaji.
I think that the Indian State needs to redefine what it means by secularism. Where it stands now is “We will recognize and help every religion on earth flourish in this blessed land”. That should really change to “Religion? Whats that?”
I do respect other peoples faith(to an extent). So unless there is a pressing reason for doing it, the government(and its representatives) shouldn’t trample over people’s beliefs. Given how things are now.
Ram could have been drinking somras and Vamiki could have been high on charas when he dreamt of monkeys building a bridge over the sea. Saying this doesn’t make Karunanidhi any better than the schemer who wanted people to vote for him in exchange of a free TV.
Eliminating irrationality and stupidity is not an unacheivable goal
most humans are stupid, and they’re born that way.
Is Sri Lanka of today the same Lanka of the Ramayana?
That was my reaction too when I first heard the story. But as I’ve grown older I’ve learned to appreciate the story for what it is. It would not have had quite the impact it does had Ram and Sita lived happily ever after. The real tragedy at this point is that Hindus have taken to debating whether Ram really existed or not, instead of debating the merits and shortcomings of his actions. Such are the effects of colonization (and globalization).
Stories form an important unit of cultural learning and transmission, specially in the realm of ethics and specially in cultures such as India where theoretical learning was not so dominant. Stories are neither true or false, although meaningful. These Indian myths are not meant to be explanations of the world nor do they carry a strict normative message. When seen as such they can only come across as primitive. But the enduring appeal of myths and legends attests to the fact that they carry something deep within them, aside from the superficial and improbable and hyperbolic and contradictory. So, to come back to Rama. Yes, he behaved like a jerk. The story redeems itself (for me) when Sita refuses to go back to him. But Ram was not a one-dimensional character. He was also a valiant hero, he was also a yogi, and he was also trying to set a perfect example for his subjects. Let’s say he didn’t throw Sita out – he would still have been a jerk in the eyes of some. There can be endless debate over this, which is all very, very good. Except that there isn’t any debate along these lines any more. What we have instead is a rigid normative expectation of what ought to be. Not to mention the debates on whether Rama really existed or not.
Reason,
IMO religion or broadly speaking belief is not going away as long as there is enough complexity and/or mystery in the universe. The problem is organised religion that seeks to otherise anyone outside of it. I think if you are for freedom, you must allow personal faith. Granted, some beliefs are plain nonsense, but not every person of faith is a literalist or fundamentalist.
Karunanidhi is a twat, along with the other racist “Dravidian leaders”
In any case, are we any less delusional to expect politicans in India to act nice? The relatively better ones are the exception. Most are tyrants (although it must be said they do act rationally in their self-interest, they are quite good at cost benefit analysis).
A lot of people have already vouched for the existence of 6’4 Desis. Let me chip in with a first hand confirmation of myself being one. However, I do notice that the probability of finding other >= 6’4 humans is probably orders of magnitude higher here in the US, than it is back home. And within India, I have a feeling that the frequency of really tall people is probably a bit higher among south indians. however, this might be because of a biased sample. idk.
if all the 6’4″ desis were laid end to end, would they reach across the palk straits from india to sri lanka? maybe we can solve two problems in one fell swoop that way?
This is probably new for those who are not aware of the different political parties / leaders in different parts of India. I know it’s tough to know about all the regions of such a vast country and it is easy to generalise. (It is like the all Hindus are vegetarians myth..)
But Karunanidhi has been saying the same things for the last 50+ years.. It is interesting to see how theories like “Aryan Invasion” play an important role in shaping the beliefs of people. Rama is ridiculed as an “Aryan god” and the DK literature and propaganda says that Ramayana is the story of the Aryans defeating Dravidians with Dravidians being portrayed as demons and monkeys. It has taken root atleast among the people of Tamil nadu. No wonder you don’t see much support for Rama in Tamilnadu.
Well, I like how this is playing out.. I think Congress is in a bind as it has to worry about the “Aryan north” which Karunanidhi can coolly ignore. And BJP is milking it to what is worth. Just point out Manmohan / Sonia / Ambika Soni are all non-Hindus and how they have denigrated Ram and reap the dividends..
So Sri Lanka was mentioned in the Ramayana? Cool. No wonder D. J. G. Hennessy said of the island: “History lies buried in its sands, and ghosts of romance lurk among its bastioned rocks, for Lanka is very, very old.”
I have heard the Rama vs Ravana story from an friend I met once, he worked for a radical Dalit organization and claimed to have been the end of more than a few zamindars in Bihar/Jharkhand.
They used to have Ravana pujas in the jungles.
What happened to the land bridge idea between SL and India? It was going to have 2 lanes either way and a rail connection?
Thinking back, I have a vague remembrance that I studied some verses from the “Raavana kaaviyam” (praising Ravana) in my Tamil class when I was a kid along with “Kamba ramayanam” Kamban’s version of Ramayana. After the DMK got hold of the political power, they have added such things into the curriculum. I have not checked now. Maybe Jayalalitha (a devout Hindu leading the offshoot of a rationalist party) would have taken those out. But generally the iconoclastic / anti Hindu / anti Brahmin ideals of the party are long gone. They are into making money (and that too in tonnes ) now.
The Hindu groups have not taken things lying down. They are quite active esp. after the Meenakshipuram mass conversions of Dalits into Islam (using gulf money) in the early 80s.. All the new temples I see that are coming up are for “Hanuman”. to install the spirit of “Rama” into Tamils. 🙂
I might be digressing from the post here, but have a question to ask of the ABDs on this thread. As a ABD do you feel that all the Karunanidhis and Advanis are responsible to you?
I don’t mean that in an derogatory sense, and I am not questioning your right to voice your opinion, but do you think considering where you belong and that you never voted these people into office, do you think they owe something to you just because you share a common culture and nothing else?
An answer to the above question might help me in putting some social context to this post in particular and to this blog in general.
Karunanidhi and the rest of his tribe may wish the brahmins away. The brahmins will just take their business elsewhere. Many already have. Some have gone to the US. Others to Bangalore. Some even to unlikely places like France (me, because I was sick of all the tasering going on at our US universities). A few decades ago, one of them, Venkataraman, started an institute in Bangalore. Today’s IT boom can probably be traced, in part, to this. He could have started the institute in Coimbatore or Madras, but he started it in Bangalore. So yeah, my answer to all that is going on in TN is that I really don’t care. (I have Tam bram hardware–software is some mixture of Anglo, North-Indian, brahmin, global fusion).
Oh and the people in France really wanted me (because they had heard that we Indians are good at Math). And I think that we have earned this reputation because of people like Ramanujam and such –many of these people are Tam brams. Come to think of it, I can’t think of a single 6’4″, big-balled, Scythian who would make the list.