So…despite what some might allege, I do NOT keep dosa pr0n up on the main page for an extra long, torturous time, not on purpose, at least. To prove this, I wanted to publish something newer for you mutineers. Off to the News Tab I went…and then I saw this:
Karunanidhi calls Lord Ram a ‘drunkard’, Advani fumes
WOW. Look, I don’t pretend to know about either the Ram Setu controversy OR politics in India, but like any idiot with half-a-functioning brain, I do know (Mandink-aaaa) that it would be disrespectful and hurtful to call a revered religious figure a “drunkard”, especially in uber-devout India. Some of you may be asking, what is going ON over there? Well, for those of you at home who haven’t been following this controversy (coughguiltycough), here’s a brief explanation:
The Sethusamudram Shipping Canal Project proposes linking the Palk Bay and the Gulf of Mannar between India and Sri Lanka by creating a shipping canal through the shallow sea sometimes called Setu Samudram, and through the island chain of Rama’s Bridge, also known as Adam’s Bridge. This would provide a continuous navigable sea route around the Indian Peninsula. The project involves digging a 44.9 nautical mile (83 km) long deepwater channel linking the shallow water of the Palk Strait with the Gulf of Mannar. Conceived as early as 1860 by Alfred Dundas Taylor, it recently received approval of the Indian government. [wiki]
According to the Hindu scripture Ramayana and beliefs, Sri Rama and His Vaanar Sena built a bridge from Rameshwaram to Sri Lanka thousands of years ago. Some Hindu organizations and religious figures, including the Shankaracharya of Puri, have opposed the project, pointing out that it would destroy the “Ram Setu”.
Others have opposed the project on environmental grounds, and fears of the effect it will have on the livelihood of some 20 million fisherfolk in the coastal districts.
The Union government admitted in late 2007 that there was no historical evidence to establish the existence of Ram or the other idols in Ramayana. In an affidavit filed before the apex court, the Archaeological Survey of India too rejected the claim of the existence of the Ram Sethu bridge in the area where the project was under construction. A day later, the affidavit was withdrawn under pressure from Hindu fundamentalist parties. However, the State government of Tamil Nadu continue to maintain its official stance and refused to review the project. [wiki]
Got all that? Good.
The Chief Minister of Lemuria, Karunanidhi, is an atheist. That is why he is extra vexed about any religious-based objections to this shipping canal. A Senior Leader of the BJP, Lal Krishna Advani, thinks Karunanidhi has got some nerve on him.
The war of words over the Ram Setu degenerated into a bitter slander match on Thursday with Tamil Nadu Chief Minister M Karunanidhi calling Lord Ram a ‘drunkard’ and a ‘big lie’.
Karunanidhi reacted with these bitter words after senior BJP leader Lal Krishna Advani on Thursday asked him to withdraw his statement about Ram, saying “people at the helm of affairs do not force contempt on others as far as religious affairs are concerned.â€
“I want the Tamil Nadu CM to withdraw his statement about Ram. I respect Karunanidhi for being an atheist. But people at the helm of affairs do not force contempt on others as far as religious affairs are concerned,†Advani, the Leader of the Opposition in Lok Sabha, said…[IBN]
…to which, the Chief Minister replied…
Karunanidhi shot back in no time, saying he remains firm on his stand. “I will not withdraw my statement.“
“Ram is as big a lie as big as the truth of the existence of the Ganges and the Himalayas,” he said. The TN Chief Minister even went on to call Lord Ram a ‘drunkard’.
“Even Valmiki has said that Ram was a drunkard. I urge Advani to get into a debate with me after reading Valmiki’s Ramayana,” Karunanidhi said.[IBN]
Oh, my.
Lately, Ram Setu has popped up on at least one SM thread, specifically the uproar over calling Ram fictional or mythical:
In the wake of the Ram Setu controversy, Karunanidhi had described Lord Ram as a ‘mythical hero’ and vowed to not go back on the Sethusamudram project.
“Is there any proof of Ram having built the bridge, or that he had the engineering expertise… There was no person in the name of Ram. The story of Ram is authored by Valmiki in Ramayana. There are so many things that Valmiki has said about Ram,” Karunanidhi said.[IBN]
I do believe that at one inappropriately hilarious moment during this fustercluck, Karunanidhi tried to make a point by asking where Ram went to engineering school? What the…? I mean, obviously he went to IIT. Just like Jesus went to Harvard.
No, seriously, what kind of pointless, snickering question is THAT? And doesn’t this man value his LIFE? Or, I don’t know, his family’s?
On Tuesday evening, Karunanidhi daughter Selvi’s house in Bangalore was attacked by unidentified miscreants in a development that was seen as a fallout of his comments. Karunanidhi slammed the attackers, saying “they showed the culture of Ram Bhaktas (worshippers). I treat these things like a speck of dust. I welcome such opposition.â€
He likes to talk some smack, doesn’t he? Yowza.
”The Ram Sevaks have proved their culture. I reiterate what I had said. There is no historical proof that Rama existed or of the bridge been built,” he said.[IBN]
I know that some of you are outraged over this (and I sympathize completely…I may not be of the same faith, but I’m a person OF faith), so I hope we can all take a collective deep breath before discussing this. I know I’m not the only one who is interested in reading what some of you have to say.
Sorry, razib i was referin to a diff dara singh here and here not the fanatic…
ah, ok.
I recommend reading this piece by my co-blogger at ptr which sheds some light on who actually initiated the project – an all BJP cast
dravidian lurker: your fables
sorry, i don’t understand your point.
Thanks for pointing this out. I am not surprised because the BJP is pulled in different directions by VHP and pro-business members and constituencies. I saw this brewing earlier but it seemed like a fringe issue until the ASI report and Karuna channeling Dawkins episodes.
Razib,
The late Sikander Bakht – a BJP member of Parliament – and a Muslim, left the decision of faith to his children. IIRC he had two sons, and both of them are married to Hindus and inhabit that great broad rainbow hued area of observance that many in India would have no trouble identifying with. Not observant, but for a few visits to mandirs, dargahs, iftaars, and the annual Christmas party. A category in which you would find millions in India. The term religion is inapplicable to such a way of practice. Farook Abdullah’s family has for generations been a devotee of Vaishno Devi. His son-in-law and daughter-in-law are both Hindu. He had a hard time accepting either of them to start with. But is known to have relented since.
I recommend you and your fellow bloggers read this report by Neena Vyas (PTR should hae no problem reading a report by her right?) Addressing the press here on Wednesday, VHP leader Ashok Singhal confirmed that aims of the VHP and BJP were identical. Both were opposed to the destruction of the under-sea structure described as Ramar Sethu, but both were in favour of the Sethusamudram project. They both preferred a different alignment that would bring no harm to the Ramar Sethu.
You wonder what the fuss is all about.
KR: Big european ships woould rather lose 8hrs than pay tarrif to pass the canal….
“Sporadic mob violence” as in a constant stream of assassinations, abductions, armed intimidation, arson and sabotage punctuated by two 9/11-scale attacks within the last 15 years? The Sangh Parivar was arguably more lethal than Al Qaeda before the outbreak of hostilities in Iraq. It… or at least its more radical elements… still pose a much more serious threat to India’s national security than Muslim extremists, Naxalites or any other terrorist faction composed of disgruntled outsiders. Salafists or Maoists can kill people and destroy property, but they are not an existential threat. They can’t undermine India’s government, military or industry. Groups like the VHP or Bajrang Dal do pose such a threat because they are closely connected to the Indian elite and composed of insiders with close ties to all of those institutions…
PS- One example of ship channel gone horribly wrong…
i ask this out of genuinely wanting to understand, and i hope it does not start a flame war. i have seen these websites run by christian organizations that compile lists of violence against christians in india (for example, this, there are others). is there indeed this level of terrorization of minorities? if these incidents are all/mostly true, then there is definitely not enough coverage and visibility given to this issue in the indian msm.
also, maxdavinci, just to clarify the back-and-forth: while i personally am not a believer in organized religion or god for a variety of reasons, my drift with the earlier statements is not that i take issue with other people’s personal beliefs, i don’t, unless they intrude into the social/political/economic realm, like they have in this case. (again, there seem to be a gazillion good reasons not to do this project, so maybe that is the right thing to do).
where Ram went to engineering school?
dunno… what political science school did the visually impaired thug go to in order to be the chief minister of Tam/atheist nadu.
“I mean is there anyone who believes in the Ramayana or Bhagvata Gita as literal truth and prays to an altar of Ganesh everyday (like my mom)?”
Read the Bhagavad-Gita and you’ll be inspired. Just get a good translation by a native English author who won’t wear you down with stilted language.
good post, anna. too tired to read all the comments, but i have a rather random question : if karunanidhi is an atheist, does the hindu law code still apply to him ( by virtue of having been born to hindu parents)? and if it doesn’t, what’s the deal on his two wives – legal or not under the constitution?
i was thinking this, too. but was he just referring to the legend of rama – i can see a lot of bashing going on just based on the image that has been built up around many mythological figures. even though i’m not into organised religion, i do find much of the hindu mythology fascinating just from a story telling point of view…
Ask some scientologist about Ron Hubbard and make jokes about them and watch them knock your head off. What’s the point. I didn’t mock you. I can’t help it if you take it personally. If you choose to personally believe in something I won’t hassle you on it and try to make you believe otherwise. It doesn’t mean I suddenly lost the option to make a statement about something that I see is fiction. I am not going into a temple and say Shiva is fake. But come on, I gotta be able to say it on a website as long as I do not attack you personally and am civil a about it.
Look I wouldn’t be making bold statements about it until I saw these guys were attacking Karunanidhi. I was addressing those guys who were going after Karunanidhi’s family. I do know about discretion despite my outspokeness. When I see crap like that going on, I will call people on their crap. I can’t help it if others share the same feelings. I will muzzle myself in other contexts, but not when I need to comment on a group that is on the warpath.
IIRC he had two sons, and both of them are married to Hindus and inhabit that great broad rainbow hued area of observance that many in India would have no trouble identifying with. Not observant, but for a few visits to mandirs, dargahs, iftaars, and the annual Christmas party. A category in which you would find millions in India. The term religion is inapplicable to such a way of practice. Farook Abdullah’s family has for generations been a devotee of Vaishno Devi. His son-in-law and daughter-in-law are both Hindu. He had a hard time accepting either of them to start with.
my family has known of people like this (e.g., muslim woman who still goes to mosque married to a hindu man whose children are raised as hindus) who “break the mold.” but they’re atypical as you imply. indonesian buddhists assert they are monotheists: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_Indonesia#Buddhism
that doesn’t mean that’s normative for world buddhism….
Rama is a very ancient God of Tamil Nadu. The first regional translation of Ramayana was itself made by Kamban (a non Brahmin, BTW) called Kamban Ramayana. The problem is that it is the atheists who are calling the shots and leading a disinformation campaign and Tamil Hindus like elsewhere — have no clue what is going on.
This article is goes a bit in depth:
Karunanidhi wrong, Ram an ancient Tamil icon http://www.dailypioneer.com/indexn12.asp?main_variable=front%5Fpage&file_name=story6%2Etxt&counter_img=6 P Ananthakrishnan delves into scholarly and popular Tamil literature that celebrates Ram and Ramayan
“The iconographic evidence of Ram in Tamil Nadu is too numerous to narrate here. There are temples to Ram that date back at least to the Ninth Century AD. Some of the greatest Chola bronzes are of Ram – a few of them are on display at the National Museum in Delhi. Some of the masterpieces are worshipped to this day, without interruption, from the day they were consecrated. Today, there is hardly any major city in Tamil Nadu that doesn’t have a Ram shrine. Hanuman, of course, pervades everywhere. One of the biggest statues of Hanuman is enshrined in a Chennai suburb, where festival days result in horrendous traffic snarls.”
cheers mate! no hard feelings……. you have an opinion and I have mine, maybe I was a wee bit harsh……
razib, any insight into what’s behind this modern fad for “re-packaging” religions as monotheistic–is it just that the modern West is largely monotheistic (when not secular)–cert. origins of West are polytheistic–Romans, Greeks, norse–or, is something else up that I’m not seeing….
any insight into what’s behind this modern fad for “re-packaging” religions as monotheistic–is it just that the modern West is largely monotheistic (when not secular)–cert. origins of West are polytheistic–Romans, Greeks, norse–or, is something else up that I’m not seeing….
in indonesia officially recognized religions have to be monotheistic. it is part of pancasila http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pancasila_Indonesia#The_Five_Principles
but yeah, in the west it is prolly to make it seem more acceptable. i read once that parsis played down dualism with the rise of colonialism.
He has the freedom to say what he wants. I should have the freedom to say:
Mohammad was a drunkard (without even existing). Then draw a cartoon in a Danish newspaper to illustrate my point.
Try doing that in India.
Scythians do not worship the blue-black skinned Ram and never have, Ram is a local corruption of the original Scythian pantheon.
The original Scythians worshipped Indra. Modern day Scythians in America have for the most part accepted Jesus Christ as our lord and saviour or are non-religious.
I personally also like the indegenous deity Shiva, he is the only indegenous god with balls. The rest are all submissive, fat, alcoholic, metrosexual runts like Ram.
he’s baaaaaccckkkk…..
Mohammad was a drunkard (without even existing).
i was told once that islam bans alcohol because muhammad got drunk and couldn’t pray once. so alcohol is banned because it might cloud the mind for prayer. this could be made up or apocryphal (mosque sunday school teachers aren’t the intellectual creme in the usa 😉
^someone please delete my comment above.
He has the freedom to say what he wants. I should have the freedom to say: Mohammad was a drunkard (without even existing). Then draw a cartoon in a Danish newspaper to illustrate my point.
Try doing that in India.
Scythians do not worship the blue-black skinned Ram and never have, Ram is a local corruption of the original Scythian pantheon. The original Scythians worshipped Indra. Modern day Scythians in America have for the most part accepted Jesus Christ as our lord and saviour or are non-religious.
I personally also like the indegenous deity Shiva, he is the only indegenous god with balls. The rest are all submissive, fat, alcoholic, metrosexual runts like Ram.
Hey,
I know I may be guilty of feeding a troll but … If you had said “misogynistic” I woulda understood.Where do you get “fat” and “metrosexual ” from? Just curious ..
if you read the Koran, you’d know he prayed after that incident…to the porcelain goddess.
My two cents:
Every religion has a mixture of gods, holy books, philosophy, symbolism and MYTHS/MYTHOLOGY. For a scientific mind in the modern age, many aspects of these expressions don’t stand test of “truth & reasons” . For a religious mind these various expresions of religion sustains him and following it helps him make a better human being. Both viewpoints have a role to play. As regards the “bridge” controversy I think the main issues are getting lost in rhetoric.
For metrosexual… I rest my case.
I grant you that he is not Ganesh or Budai fat, but he is still fat by god standards.
Indian godesses by contrast are sexy.
Hanuman was always my true hero in the Ramayana anyway. Lakshman’s got my support too.
By the way, there is nothing weird about someone not literally believe in all the tales, but will pray to an idol of a Hindu God. The idol is a good way for them to focus on their prayer. People cry during tragedies on screen even though they know it is fake. I never understood the Jersualem based religions hatred of idol worship. Oh we evil pagans. Hell, it got so bad even Catholicism gets bashed partly because of the symbolic stuff.
Am I the only one who is feeling increasingly uncomfortable with the religion bashing tone this thread is taking ? Though – to be fair – all the religions are getting bashed .
I’m quite confident I’ve never seen a 6’4″ Desi, not even the (seemingly ceremonial, & cert. tough-looking) Sikh guards at department stores in Hong Kong–is he satirizing this Scythian thing, or self-deluded–I try to be open-minded about this stuff, but my DbD parents (long-standing Delhi family) would have some choice words on this topic.
Am I the only one who is feeling increasingly uncomfortable with the religion bashing tone this thread is taking ? Though – to be fair – all the religions are getting bashed .
how long have you read this blog runa? this isn’t exceptional. and much (though not all) of the bashing is rather specific, 7th century barbarism and burning people in buses and all that.
Yeah, a lot of people have a hard time wrapping their heads around the idea that ‘one God’ (that’s how a lot of people see the concept of Brahma) can co-exist with the many gods of the Hindu pantheon, and that believing that ‘God is everywhere’ can coexist with idol worship. I was talking to a Thai Buddhist recently who expressed the same confusion, actually- she believed in the actual manifestation of the statue but not in a more theoretical existence.
And Pravin, I may have seemed too defensive. It’s just that I’m a lot closer to high school–and dreadful ‘lessons’ about Hinduism during which my classmates would basically laugh at my beliefs (and this, coming from people who believed that they were ‘chosen’)–than a lot of you are. Honestly I’m still trying to understand the place of ritual in Hinduism and whether I ‘believe’ in it or not.
“I never understood the Jersualem based religions hatred of idol worship. Oh we evil pagans. Hell, it got so bad even Catholicism gets bashed partly because of the symbolic stuff.”
Often Muslims and Chistians politely explain to me that statues are not God since God’s existence is not predicated on a object made of clay, marble, etc. They just don’t seem to get we are worshipping symbols, no Hindu thinks the bronze Lord Ganesha in his house is actually a God. I doubt idolatry has ever been practice, its a theoretical concept that has never been actualized in practice. I suspect even the most primitive man worshipped idols as symbols.
According to the Koran, Mohammad destroyed all the idols in the Kaaba to end idolatry. I suspect the “idolatrous” tribes of Arabia were practicing something on par with Hinduism. They saw their idols as interpretations of God and viewed other tribal idols as simply different interpretations.
There is a branch of my family where all the men are over 6 feet tall, going up 6’4″ and 6’5″. I also have several family friends who reached 6’4″ and others who even surpassed it. And, this is the kicker… they’re all lemurians!
Rob #182… the desi grad student i corrupted about a week ago was a 6’4 sikh ….
rob,
A cousin on mine is exactly 6′ 4″ and guess what – we are Lemurians 🙂
That deserves to be bashed. My discomfort is just that the language and tone towards religions/practice of is veering from what I find acceptable in polite company. Only the atheists seem to be let off lightly 🙂 Which is not to suggest that this be stopped. Voltaire said it best ” I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it”.So I have a right to say that I feel uncomfortable right?
Often Muslims and Chistians politely explain to me that statues are not God since God’s existence is not predicated on a object made of clay, marble, etc.
the same arguments are operative within christianity. see the iconoclasm phase in byzantium. the iconophiles made the same arguments about flat icons that hindus make about their idols. and of course roman catholicism makes free use of statuary, and even processions of statues. as for muslims they idolize the book (as do jews in their own way). the psychology is the same, the exoteric garment simply differs.
Thats a tough question. Scientifically it may be easy to break rituals down as wortheless but I have met some pretty sophisticated educated, philosophical, religious Hindus who can put a very strong front against that line of argument.
runa, can you give me an example of comments that you are uncomfortable with? (apart from obvious troll like comments, of course).
rob, is your most serious problem with 6-4 scythian male his handle? 🙂
Why…seems perfectly “natural” to me, or at least no less arbitrary than any other religious belief–and doesn’t screw with my secular pursuits (heh–including dredging ship passages, if evironmentally sound!). I have no problem with atheists, agnostics, etc.–Hindus don’t think a “head-count” wins the day! (Well, some do, who gripe about “Christian missionary vultures,” but–that’s more just crass politics.)
Allow me to speculate– the issue is the bizarre, shameless, inane rambling by someone who lacks self-awareness. Even being tall, as special as that is, can’t compensate for being a twat.
That deserves to be bashed. My discomfort is just that the language and tone towards religions/practice of is veering from what I find acceptable in polite company.
Good thing you were not here for the treatment dished out to Republicans here a few years back! I remember Republicans being called ‘House Negros’ and other appellations. Fun times, fun times! On a serious note, I think SM has actually improved by the moderators cracking down on personal attacks etc. Some of us more wing-nut commenters now engage in self censorship which has led to SM becoming a more diverse and inclusive place and the quality of discourse has gone up.
Thx. for the response–what, exactly, do you have in mind as your group’s boundaries, then, in terms of more “modern” population demographics (pls. excuse my ignorance, and thx. again for taking the time to answer.)
I am very interested in hearing what they are ? Ritualism tends to be the most easily disproven aspect of religious belief.
I have read Christian apologists (Vatican based Roman Catholics are generally the best), make some logically sound rationalistic arguments for various stances that the Catholic church holds if you ascribe to their base assumptions (soul, loving god, etc). However when it comes to ritual even they fall back on the old ‘it is tradition’ argument.
Islamic-reform movements like the Salafis try to avoid this problem by doing away with unecessary ritualism altogether (aside from what is written in their constitution).
The Hindu apologists generally use post-modernist soundng; non-rational and meta-physical arguements for ritualism.
@ 21,
The above statement is not perfectly correct. Tamil Nadu is just one state amongst a handful of other states in south so cannot be representative of the “South”. And I am not sure if the atheism is as prevalent in the entire south as it is in the ruling class of Tamil Nad and/or political ideology of the Dravidian parties.
a good friend of mine who is a devout catholic, and is generally very aware of and genuinely curious about other cultures and religions, read the ram setu story on bbc and was very amused by the notion of monkeys building a bridge for a god. so we discussed it, and i hypothesised that he found it unusual possibly because christianity doesn’t have magical creatures/talking animals etc. front and center just as much. we couldn’t come up with any prominent examples at least while we were drinking our beer.
dravidian lurker,
No major issues with any commenter( except the trolls!) but comments like :” Where did they get that from – their Amar Chitra comics? ” & the one about idol worship “is there anyone reall here who …prays to an altar of Ganesh everyday (like my mom)? ” & “… i find islam to be the most abhorrent of religions” are the type that make me uncomfortable. I know that the commenters were trying to get a viewpoint across but some of the stuff is unnecessarily abrasive and possibly hurtful for those who genuinely believe.
My question was whether I was the only one who felt this way. If so, I need to recalibrate my PC /sensitivity meter 🙂