382 thoughts on “Oh, no he DIDN’T!”

1. @ 87 – Most hindus are half-assed. That pisses off the hindu fanatics more than muslims or christians. There are too many contradictions within hinduism for someone to be a true believer without being a nutter. I’m proud to be half-assed-hindu(Today’s WORD).

   Add me to the list !

2. Since this thread is at least partly about Karunanidhi’s person and personality – I’ve always been curious why he (and MGR before him) always wear dark glasses all the time, including indoors. It’s one of the things about him that irritates me – irrationally, of course :)Anybody care to share some wisdom in the matter?

   Don’t know about MGR, but Karunanidhi has a glass eye that he doesn’t want to show in public. You can see him without his dark glasses in the video of his midnight arrest, which was played ad nauseam on Sun TV (big surprise there).

3. Pravin @ 4:26

   Just your family friends and relatives.

   “recent immigrant families of Indian Hindus” like mine and my friends(unless you exclude me again from your community under another classification) enjoy a nice juicy beef burger and a peepper crusted steak grilled to a perfection on my fling from this summer

4. sometimes religion serves to protect the environment, even if for religious reasons

   True, The NDA sanctioned the project to dredge between rameshwaram and the indian coast such that it enables out ships from Chennai to tuticorin. This is cheaper, involves less dredging and will suffice the needs of our ships. Our ships spend 10-30 hours extra while going around srilanka.

   The TN govt however wants to make it a huge canal like the suez canal and is targeting toll fees from the humungous european ships that will use it. The fact is that those ships just lose 8hours going around srilanka and paying toll to use the sethusamudram will not make things cheaper for them.

   The TN govt is banking on the profits earned from this toll to pay for the dredging expenses. At the present tariff rates, ships from Africa and Europe will lose $ 4,992 on every voyage, as the savings in time for these ships are considerably lower that what is calculated…..

5. To add more about the indoor use of sunglasses by MGR & Karunanidhi:

   There’s an old Tamil proverb “alpathukku bavushu vandhaa ardharathrila kodai mottam pidichikkadhu, cooling glass-um potakkum”, which sort of means “when a stingy person suddenly becomes rich, he/she will not only hold an umbrella in the middle of the night, he/she will also wear sunglasses”.

6. pingpong: I have heard the umbrella angle, but first time that I am hearing the sunglass angle 😀 ROTFL!

   But jokes apart, I think both Karunanidhi and MGR have/had some issues with eyesight. And it looks like someone was very curious about his dark glasses and actually posted a question on Yahoo Answers.

7. Our ships spend 10-30 hours extra while going around srilanka. The TN govt however wants to make it a huge canal like the suez canal and is targeting toll fees from the humungous european ships that will use it. The fact is that those ships just lose 8hours going around srilanka and paying toll to use the sethusamudram will not make things cheaper for them.

   Interesting – why are Indian ships so underpowered? Any reasons?

   There’s one other factor for the canal – the Indian government may be thinking (rather optimistically) that if they deepen the Palk Strait then deep-draft vessels from the Persian Gulf, Africa and Europe will stop at places like Thoothukudi and Nagapattinam. I don’t see that happening – even though Thoothukudi is connected into National Highway 7 (Kanyakumari-Varanasi) by a spur, it is not close to major demand centers or to major manufacturing centers to justify its expanded use for international trade.

8. @ 102 -> I thought Sun TV was DMK aligned and Jaya TV was the AIADMK one?

9. Interesting – why are Indian ships so underpowered? Any reasons?

   They are smaller ships that are used for domestic cargo. Also the technology is kinda old.

   There’s one other factor for the canal – the Indian government may be thinking (rather optimistically) that if they deepen the Palk Strait then deep-draft vessels from the Persian Gulf, Africa and Europe will stop at places like Thoothukudi and Nagapattinam.

   The State Government has announced its proposal to develop 13 minor ports, including Ennore, Cuddalore, Nagapattinam, Thondi, Valinokam, Kolachel and Kanyakumari. Also tuticorin is all set to become a nodal point….

10. pingpong, thanks for answering the dark glasses question.

    On your question @69, as to whether a channel through the Sethusamudram could really affect tsunami propagation, my short answer would be ‘yes’. It could, depending on where it was, how deep it was, how long it was, how wide it was, and where the tsunami came from, and how strong the earthquake was, and so on. So the onus should be on those suggesting the channel project to show that the additional risk is within acceptable bounds. They could use geomorphological maps, distribution of previous earthquakes, hydrodynamics, etc to make their case.

    Here’s an excerpt from the link that Kush posted:

    Professor Tad Murthy, the world renowned tsunami expert, who advised the Government of India on the tsunami warning system and edited the Tsunami Journal for over 20 years, has also warned that the present Setu Samudram route may result in tsunami waves hitting Kerala more fiercely. In a reply to a query regarding the Sethusanmudram’s impact, he wrote:

    During the Indian Ocean tsunami of December 26, 2004, the southern part of Kerala was generally spared from a major tsunami, mainly because the tsunami waves from Sumatra region travelling south of the Sri Lankan island, partially diffracted northward and affected the central part of the Kerala coast. Since the tsunami is a long gravity wave (similar to tides and storm surges) during the diffraction process, the rather wide turn it has to take spared the south Kerala coast. On the other hand, deepening the Sethu Canal might provide a more direct route for the tsunami and this could impact south Kerala

11. I don’t see that happening – even though Thoothukudi is connected into National Highway 7 (Kanyakumari-Varanasi) by a spur, it is not close to major demand centers or to major manufacturing centers to justify its expanded use for international trade.

    Pingpong: I think the idea is to draw business to the area because of the port. The port’s website says that container traffic has been growing at 17.5 percent annually in the past five years (container handling at the port started in 1999) and a study by students at Wharton and the Planning commision of India concluded that the port’s container handling facilities are comparable to ports such as Hongkong and Singapore.

12. Burning libraries, roasting people alive in buses. Boy, the much talked about Hinduism as a way of life, no compulsions, everything is Hinduism meme on SM has sure taken a beating.

13. @ 102 -> I thought Sun TV was DMK aligned and Jaya TV was the AIADMK one?

    Yes, they are exactly that. Karunanidhi was arrested by Jayalalitha (for no good reason) in the middle of the night. He resisted arrest (by holding onto his armchair) and screamed blue murder “Aargh they are trying to kill me help help” (again for no good reason), which was shown in a loop on Sun TV interspersed with talking heads lamenting this police brutality, while Jaya TV droned on and on about the reasons for his arrest (whatever they were). Now I don’t know exactly why a Sun TV crew was there to record MK’s arrest, but it happens only in Tamil Nadu.

    The State Government has announced its proposal to develop 13 minor ports, including Ennore, Cuddalore, Nagapattinam, Thondi, Valinokam, Kolachel and Kanyakumari. Also tuticorin is all set to become a nodal point….

    Big thinking, what? Not all of them are well connected by access roads or railways. No doubt MK wants to build them too. Ever observed that every time the DMK comes to power in TN, there always a spate of big construction projects? The Veeranam pipeline in the 1960s/1970s along the Old Mahabalipuram Road south of Madras, the development of Ashok Nagar, Anna Nagar and KK Nagar in the 1970s, the flyovers in the 1990s/2000s, this canal, the proposed new international airport for Madras… Big construction projects afford a lot of ways to make money on the side. Jayalalitha’s style of making money on the other hand is big social projects (large-scale saree distribution and stuff). Bah, I’m cynical about the public spiritedness of TN politicians.

    So the onus should be on those suggesting the channel project to show that the additional risk is within acceptable bounds. They could use geomorphological maps, distribution of previous earthquakes, hydrodynamics, etc to make their case.

    Chachaji, thanks for the info you provided from Kush’s link. I agree that not all the required analysis has been done, and that this project seems to have been approved rather hastily.

14. “What happened?”

    in areas such as meghalaya, where there was significant conversion to christianity, the percentage of cover in sacred groves declined. the percentage of forest cover in a certain grove or in a forest was in direct proportion to how strictly the local population observed the practice of treating groves/forests/certain plants and animals within them as sacred/not to be touched unless under special circumstances and local laws. since there was no longer any need for some people to believe in the sacredness of particular trees/plants/animals etc., these groves declined in area as they were cut down for other uses and the flora/fauna within them declined as well.

    in areas of southern india (and other parts of india) where the locals swapped more nature-based or what is called “lower” forms of hinduism (the “superstitions” and “myths” and “ritual” that some people complain overwhelm hinduism and should be abandoned in favour of its more vedic/philosophical roots) for “upper” or more “sanskritized” forms of hinduism (meaning cutting down a grove to build a bigger, more formal temple instead of being content with the small shrine in a tree or with the tree itself), sacred groves also declined in size and number. urbanization/economic growth/westernization/development has also led to their rapid decline over the last century, with the children of the traditional guardians of sacred groves no longer interested in continuing that lifestyle or holding on to that land for that purpose alone. and some states in india, being a secular country, don’t recognize any of these groves as sacred but as reserve forests, giving the state the right to do with them as they will (but generally reserve forests fare decently under the state).

    this is not to say that religion should trump all other considerations in making development decisions – and many “superstitions” (whether from “higher” or “lower” forms of any religion) are indeed harmful — but sometimes people — including the most vocal religious ones — lose sight of the useful age-old wisdoms in their rush to be seen as “secular”, “modern”, “rational” or whatever you want to call it. there should be ways of balancing all these concerns without all sides resorting to extremes (and that includes environmental extremists at times.)

    re #91: maxdavinci, that was a good rundown of some of the major environmental concerns.

    “They need to let the guy express his opinion and shut up about their own ignorance.”

    a fairer statement would be “they both need to let the other guy express his opinion/ignorance” or “they both need to shut up about their opinion/ignorance” 🙂

15. I think the idea is to draw business to the area because of the port. The port’s website says that container traffic has been growing at 17.5 percent annually in the past five years (container handling at the port started in 1999) and a study by students at Wharton and the Planning commision of India concluded that the port’s container handling facilities are comparable to ports such as Hongkong and Singapore.

    Anantha, I got a 404 Page Not Found error for your link. Anyway, I’m not questioning the Thoothukudi port’s capacity to handle cargo – I’m not convinced however that there is a sound reason for international trade to Thoothukudi (even though it is a very good port) purely because it is not close to major demand centers. For instance, it makes sense to have large ports in Chennai and Ennore to accommodate the automotive and chemicals industries (not to mention receiving part of the cargo meant for Bangalore). I don’t see a major use for a large port in Thoothukudi, because it is not close to major cities, unless maybe the TN govt wants to combine a large port in the region with cheap wind power from the Nagercoil area and/or nuclear power from Koodankulam to create a major industrial zone there. That would probably make up for the fact that it is not close to demand centers nor is it particularly close to agricultural belts like the Kaveri delta.

16. Burning libraries, roasting people alive in buses. Boy, the much talked about Hinduism as a way of life, no compulsions, everything is Hinduism meme on SM has sure taken a beating.

    ACFD: I prefer the overly acquisitive “Hindu” meme that reabsorbs heterodoxies to the meme that “Others” people for slight deviations in theology.

17. tamilnadu deserves its leaders – it is a culture that glorifies movie stars, “elevates” them to politicians, and constantly supports people like jj, mk, and mgr, who are various degrees of corrupt and inefficient. and how fitting that the bajrang dal has behaved like rama’s faithful army of monkeys in inflicting damage on his behalf.

    on a lighter note, i believe an appropriate title for this post given the context of destruction of big stone obstacles would be “battering ram”. also, if prabhakaran abducted mrs. advani, wouldn’t advani fly to her rescue on air mihin instead of using a half submerged land bridge?

18. probably not a popular thing to say, but i wish the words “meme” and “conflate” – perfectly serviceable english words but threadbare by now – could be retired from blogspeak for a suitable rest period 🙂

19. Advani openly said he respected Karunanidhis right to be an atheist, but did not like him dissing Hinduism. Now which Supremo of any other “fundamentalist” political configuration would say such a thing?

20. Stupidity all around… 1) On the part of the government for making a needlessly incendiary statement, one that would never have been made against a minority religion 2) On the part of the Ram bakhts for ignoring the science that shows “Ram setu” to be a natural, rather than manmade, formation. For behaving like savages in showing their anger 3) On the part of Karuna for picking a fight needlessly

21. ACFD: I prefer the overly acquisitive “Hindu” meme that reabsorbs heterodoxies to the meme that “Others” people for slight deviations in theology.

    I am not sure about the much discussed superiority of Hinduism when heterodoxy is met with burning of buses which has people inside.

22. 1) On the part of the government for making a needlessly incendiary statement, one that would never have been made against a minority religion

    So the problem is that Muslims and Sikhs were not similarly dissed. I would imagine that the Indian minorities will gladly take dissing in exchange for security and protection by the State.

23. re #120: concise, accurate summation of this brouhaha.

24. ACFD: Keep at the misdirection ACFD. It is hard work trying to show that the daily insanity between Sunnis & Shia is equivalent to the sporadic mob violence in a majority Hindu country.

25. I’m proud to be half-assed-hindu(Today’s WORD).

    Rasudha, Well-said. So am I !

    Razib, You said:

    the short answer is no, I WOULD NOT BE OK (and neither would my fiance). the main issue general is not religion, but supernaturalism,

    Don’t you think you should let your future kids find their own truth rather than impose yours on them? Ina reverse situation, if someone was forcing their belief in a Supreme power on their kids, I am sure you will agree that it is not correct.

26. ^^ Well said.

27. WGiia@114: much thanks! I did not know the interplay between religious edicts and environmental protection earlier. On this topic, is it true that the general objection to cow slaughter in Hinduism was rooted in economic protectionism in the Vedic era?

    louiecypher@120: accurate description. One might also add “distracting general public from evaluating an engineering project, by using religious media manipulation, on the part of all parties”.

28. this is not to say that religion should trump all other considerations in making development decisions – and many “superstitions” (whether from “higher” or “lower” forms of any religion) are indeed harmful — but sometimes people — including the most vocal religious ones — lose sight of the useful age-old wisdoms in their rush to be seen as “secular”, “modern”, “rational” or whatever you want to call it.

    Well said.

29. ACFD: Keep at the misdirection ACFD. It is hard work trying to show that the daily insanity between Sunnis & Shia is equivalent to the sporadic mob violence in a majority Hindu country.

    So Hinduism is great because the Hindus have not yet stooped to the 7th century inspired barbarity of Muslims?

30. Don’t you think you should let your future kids find their own truth rather than impose yours on them? Ina reverse situation, if someone was forcing their belief in a Supreme power on their kids, I am sure you will agree that it is not correct.

    1) the choices parents make shape the views of their children. children move in their own direction, but it isn’t a probability distribution influenced by parental parameters.

    2) no, i don’t accept my children in whatever truth they find. there is a strong likelihood that they could “pass” as white. what if they decided to hide their brown past and pass as white nationalists? this has happened with biracial individuals before (an australian neo-nazi leader and also in the USA). that’s an extreme case, but i find fundamentalist muslims as distasteful as white nationalists. if my child was a moderate muslim i would ratchet down my distaste and contempt proportionally. they can make whatever choice they want as adults but there are constraints that i as a parent would impose that i would never apologize for. as an analogy, if two parents are jains and their teenage son decides he wants to become a muslim and slaughter his own animals in the garage for halal meat how would they feel? should they “accept his truth”? i find the belief in primitive bronze age gods and their repulsive orthopraxies incomprehensible in the last and barbaric at the extreme, and i accept that such mindless incomprehensibility & barbarism is going to be ubiquitous in our world as long as i live. but i would never tolerate such within my own house. bonds of affection are contingent upon more than blood alone, there must be fellow feeling and understanding of the world as it is and what values are critical for the good life.

    3) and yes, i accept the right of parents to indoctrinate their children in their ridiculous fantasies so long as they don’t violate laws or basic human rights (e.g., start sacrificing their first born or anything ret*rded like that). some people can shed their fantasies, but most people are sheep. so be it. this isn’t heaven.

    and yes, my fiance agrees with me on the details here.

31. but it isn’t a probability distribution influenced by parental parameters.

    uninfluenced.

32. Razib, Thanks for the detailed reply.

    I agree with you on (1) .Choices parents make of course influence their children In (2) ,I agree with this:

    they can make whatever choice they want as adults but there are constraints that i as a parent would impose that i would never apologize for.

    No argument there.

    My question to you was not as extreme as discovering that your hypthetical kids are white supremacists or Jihadis. It was more of : If your future kids decide that they beleive in a Superior Power/God , what will you do?

    (3) is unfortunately,inevitable in some cases.

    I am ready to share my own take on this : I believe in God. But should my son choose to be an atheist I have no problem with that. As you said, while he is under my care, he will be exposed to whatver faith I follow. However, I cannot imagine that I would disapprove of his atheism because it really does not harm anyone.

33. 2) On the part of the Ram bakhts for ignoring the science that shows “Ram setu” to be a natural, rather than manmade, formation. For behaving like savages in showing their anger

    logic shouldn’t be applied to faith. Logic asks questions and faith demands belief. They don’t go hand in hand. There are a lot of things that science begs to differ, but don’t we ignore science? Religion falls under this category.

    I don’t say that what they are doing is right, just that faith must be respected and not questioned. The stoning of the chief ministers house is definitely condemned, but when the ecologists failed to save the bridge they turned to divine intervention…

34. faith must be respected and not questioned

    as long as it stays in puja rooms/temples/churches/mosques, not when it tries to impose its norms on society at large. (i don’t know enough about the scientific details behind this reef to have an informed opinion about it one way or the other, but whether rama and his band of monkeys built it is definitely not germane to that opinion).

    you know what, i believe in science, but if mk had said feynman/einstein was a womanizer, i wouldn’t feel the need to beat him up over it. that’s his opinion, doesn’t change what i think of them. this response of using force to enforce respect for faith smacks of insecurity, bullying and vigilantism.

35. ACFD : So Hinduism is great because the Hindus have not yet stooped to the 7th century inspired barbarity of Muslims?

    ^^^ This is where the conversation starts looking like the comments section on rediff, if i want to have a laugh i just visit an article 😉

    & Razib@83 : Point taken, being raised in a practising hindu family does make one more familiar .. but again the uniqueness of atheisms position in hinduism seems more drastic because i can remain a hindu while being nastik , dont have to create/join a separate sect for it. Also, since there has been no ‘final word’ since its inception as a vedic religion, the search continues.

36. when the ecologists failed to save the bridge they turned to divine intervention…

    Max, I must disagree with the phrasing of that statement. The ecologists’ duty is not to save the bridge – it is to analyze and protect the environment in and around the Gulf of Mannar. If anybody finds themselves thinking more of saving “the bridge”, they probably are not 100% impartial in their analysis.

    Also, when I say that the ecologists must protect the environment, I do not mean to imply that it is only their duty. It is also the duty of anyone involved in the project, including the construction engineers. That said, the ecologists are probably better trained at examining the roles of different species in the local ecosystem and knock-on effects of changing the population of a species, than anyone else.

37. It was more of : If your future kids decide that they beleive in a Superior Power/God , what will you do?

    depends on their rationale.

38. So ACFD is playing Kalaignar Karunanidhi in this thread, eh?

39. but whether rama and his band of monkeys built it is definitely not germane to that opinion

    more on the scientefic reasons here Well, it’s this attitude of ours that pains me. I rarely see muslims question the flying horse or christians question the parting of a river. Each individual has the right to his own opinion, but while your at it you may take a poke at other religions to….

40. I rarely see muslims question the flying horse or christians question the parting of a river.

    western christians have many different views. marcus borg and john spong are at one end of the spectrum (spong was epsicopal bishop of newark). spong has even argue for a post-theistic christianity. islam seems definitely more primitive, though there are a few individuals at the long end of the tail….

41. 2) On the part of the Ram bakhts for ignoring the science that shows “Ram setu” to be a natural, rather than manmade, formation. For behaving like savages in showing their anger logic shouldn’t be applied to faith. Logic asks questions and faith demands belief. They don’t go hand in hand. There are a lot of things that science begs to differ, but don’t we ignore science? Religion falls under this category. I don’t say that what they are doing is right, just that faith must be respected and not questioned. The stoning of the chief ministers house is definitely condemned, but when the ecologists failed to save the bridge they turned to divine intervention…

    I agree that it was unecessarily divisive for the GOI to apply logic to the divinity or existence of Ram. However, I would hope that the more educated among the Ram bakhts would accomodate modernity, as for example Catholics have in rejecting literal interpretations of Genesis in favor of evolution, and question the chronology. Placing Ram in the bronze age, hundreds of thousands of years after the natural processes that gave rise to the “Ram setu”, does not hurt the faith in the least. What does it matter if the actual Lanka was a small island in the Arabian sea off the coast of Gujurat (or in the deltas of the Ganges or Indus) rather than the modern state of Sri Lanka ?

42. http://www.galluppoll.com/content/?ci=27682

    belief in bible by selected religious groups

    actual word of god, to be taken literally – inspired word of god – ancient fables, history, legends recorded by man

    protestants – 40 – 48 – 11 other christians – 45 – 46 – 6 catholics – 21 – 61 – 16 no religious identification – 10 – 26 – 60

    (for USA)

    note that minorities of identified christians belief that the bible is a book of fables, and most are not literalists.

43. What is wrong with what Karunanidhi said? They seriously think Rama is a real guy who built an actual bridge to Sri Lanka? Did he get Hanuman to put boulders in the water? Where did they get that from – their Amar Chitra comics?

    Ouch. Just… ouch. I know you said in a later post, Pravin, that you are equally distasteful of all religions but don’t think this is the entry to mock them, but is it really necessary to ridicule people who might actually believe this, or even just place a lot of value on this story, and paint them and their beliefs as childish?

    Karunanidhi? In one word, tactless. Then again Andhra society seems very different from Tamil society, so I don’t think I quite fully understand this.

44. What does it matter if the actual Lanka was a small island in the Arabian sea off the coast of Gujurat (or in the deltas of the Ganges or Indus) rather than the modern state of Sri Lanka ?

    True, but if a majority of the society believes that it was part of the ramayana, if its egologically harmful, and economically not profitable…. Should you still dance to the tunes of your atheist ally? That’s the larger question…..

45. Well, it’s this attitude of ours that pains me. I rarely see muslims question the flying horse or christians question the parting of a river.

    as razib’s stats point out, this is not true. but at a higher level, why does it matter? is there a race to be the most unquestioning believer that hindus will lose? will you belief system become less valid if fewer people adopt it?

    oh, and razib @130, very nicely put.

46. True, but if a majority of the society believes that it was part of the ramayana, if its egologically harmful, and economically not profitable….

    if the latter two are true, great. why is the first relevant? the shape changing deer and flying monkeys are fables, right?

47. tactless

    .

    Thank goodness! nala is back……

    What is wrong with what Karunanidhi said? They seriously think Rama is a real guy who built an actual bridge to Sri Lanka? Did he get Hanuman to put boulders in the water? Where did they get that from – their Amar Chitra comics?

    What is wrong? well one mans food is another mans poison. Just coz you don’t believe doesn’t mean you mock at others faith… Ask dara sigh if the character he played was inspired by amar chitra katha and you’ll be lucky to find your head on your shoulders….

48. the shape changing deer and flying monkeys are fables, right?

    yup and so is everything else that we fail to explain……sigh!

49. Just coz you don’t believe doesn’t mean you mock at others faith… Ask dara sigh if the character he played was inspired by amar chitra katha and you’ll be lucky to find your head on your shoulders….

    well, shouldn’t it be, “just coz you don’t believe doesn’t mean it is smart to mock at others faith….” i mean, the problem in the first place are bestial things like dara singh, or, to use another example most of the world’s muslims who decide it is appropriate to riot and get each other killed because of some cartoons about muhammad in denmark. the world is a savage place and we need to be realists.

50. All of these dudes are getting more and more senile every day. Karunanidhi seems to be going back to his glory days dissing Hinduism left and right EVR-style.

    And Advani seems to have lost his memory:

    “But people at the helm of affairs do not force contempt on others as far as religious affairs are concerned.”