Oh, no he DIDN’T!

So…despite what some might allege, I do NOT keep dosa pr0n up on the main page for an extra long, torturous time, not on purpose, at least. To prove this, I wanted to publish something newer for you mutineers. Off to the News Tab I went…and then I saw this:

Karunanidhi calls Lord Ram a ‘drunkard’, Advani fumes

WOW. Look, I don’t pretend to know about either the Ram Setu controversy OR politics in India, but like any idiot with half-a-functioning brain, I do know (Mandink-aaaa) that it would be disrespectful and hurtful to call a revered religious figure a “drunkard”, especially in uber-devout India. Some of you may be asking, what is going ON over there? Well, for those of you at home who haven’t been following this controversy (coughguiltycough), here’s a brief explanation:

The Sethusamudram Shipping Canal Project proposes linking the Palk Bay and the Gulf of Mannar between India and Sri Lanka by creating a shipping canal through the shallow sea sometimes called Setu Samudram, and through the island chain of Rama’s Bridge, also known as Adam’s Bridge. This would provide a continuous navigable sea route around the Indian Peninsula. The project involves digging a 44.9 nautical mile (83 km) long deepwater channel linking the shallow water of the Palk Strait with the Gulf of Mannar. Conceived as early as 1860 by Alfred Dundas Taylor, it recently received approval of the Indian government. [wiki]
According to the Hindu scripture Ramayana and beliefs, Sri Rama and His Vaanar Sena built a bridge from Rameshwaram to Sri Lanka thousands of years ago. Some Hindu organizations and religious figures, including the Shankaracharya of Puri, have opposed the project, pointing out that it would destroy the “Ram Setu”.
Others have opposed the project on environmental grounds, and fears of the effect it will have on the livelihood of some 20 million fisherfolk in the coastal districts.
The Union government admitted in late 2007 that there was no historical evidence to establish the existence of Ram or the other idols in Ramayana. In an affidavit filed before the apex court, the Archaeological Survey of India too rejected the claim of the existence of the Ram Sethu bridge in the area where the project was under construction. A day later, the affidavit was withdrawn under pressure from Hindu fundamentalist parties. However, the State government of Tamil Nadu continue to maintain its official stance and refused to review the project. [wiki]

Got all that? Good.

The Chief Minister of Lemuria, Karunanidhi, is an atheist. That is why he is extra vexed about any religious-based objections to this shipping canal. A Senior Leader of the BJP, Lal Krishna Advani, thinks Karunanidhi has got some nerve on him.

The war of words over the Ram Setu degenerated into a bitter slander match on Thursday with Tamil Nadu Chief Minister M Karunanidhi calling Lord Ram a ‘drunkard’ and a ‘big lie’.
Karunanidhi reacted with these bitter words after senior BJP leader Lal Krishna Advani on Thursday asked him to withdraw his statement about Ram, saying “people at the helm of affairs do not force contempt on others as far as religious affairs are concerned.”
“I want the Tamil Nadu CM to withdraw his statement about Ram. I respect Karunanidhi for being an atheist. But people at the helm of affairs do not force contempt on others as far as religious affairs are concerned,” Advani, the Leader of the Opposition in Lok Sabha, said…[IBN]

…to which, the Chief Minister replied…

Karunanidhi shot back in no time, saying he remains firm on his stand. “I will not withdraw my statement.
“Ram is as big a lie as big as the truth of the existence of the Ganges and the Himalayas,” he said. The TN Chief Minister even went on to call Lord Ram a ‘drunkard’.
Even Valmiki has said that Ram was a drunkard. I urge Advani to get into a debate with me after reading Valmiki’s Ramayana,” Karunanidhi said.[IBN]

Oh, my.

Lately, Ram Setu has popped up on at least one SM thread, specifically the uproar over calling Ram fictional or mythical:

In the wake of the Ram Setu controversy, Karunanidhi had described Lord Ram as a ‘mythical hero’ and vowed to not go back on the Sethusamudram project.
“Is there any proof of Ram having built the bridge, or that he had the engineering expertise… There was no person in the name of Ram. The story of Ram is authored by Valmiki in Ramayana. There are so many things that Valmiki has said about Ram,” Karunanidhi said.[IBN]

I do believe that at one inappropriately hilarious moment during this fustercluck, Karunanidhi tried to make a point by asking where Ram went to engineering school? What the…? I mean, obviously he went to IIT. Just like Jesus went to Harvard.

No, seriously, what kind of pointless, snickering question is THAT? And doesn’t this man value his LIFE? Or, I don’t know, his family’s?

On Tuesday evening, Karunanidhi daughter Selvi’s house in Bangalore was attacked by unidentified miscreants in a development that was seen as a fallout of his comments. Karunanidhi slammed the attackers, saying “they showed the culture of Ram Bhaktas (worshippers). I treat these things like a speck of dust. I welcome such opposition.”

He likes to talk some smack, doesn’t he? Yowza.

”The Ram Sevaks have proved their culture. I reiterate what I had said. There is no historical proof that Rama existed or of the bridge been built,” he said.[IBN]

I know that some of you are outraged over this (and I sympathize completely…I may not be of the same faith, but I’m a person OF faith), so I hope we can all take a collective deep breath before discussing this. I know I’m not the only one who is interested in reading what some of you have to say.

382 thoughts on “Oh, no he DIDN’T!

  1. wow 1st commenter. i don’t know the history of his party but would he hesitate to insult siva, ganesh etc since most Tamils I think are Shaivites?

  2. The Chief Minister of Lemuria, Karunanidhi,

    Ouch! A bit harsh, ain’t it?

    I wish there was more coverage of the ecological and economic effects of this shipping channel. Instead, this stupid debate about gods, myths takes center-stage.

  3. Ouch! A bit harsh, ain’t it?

    Oh…I didn’t mean it to be. I consider myself a Lemurian. 🙂 Not that I agree with ye ole fight-pickin’ CM here…

  4. Great, now we got the Hindu fundamentalists speaking out more in India. Before my pet peeve was caste. Now we got a bunch of oversensitive people who get offended by every single thing. What is wrong with what Karunanidhi said? They seriously think Rama is a real guy who built an actual bridge to Sri Lanka? Did he get Hanuman to put boulders in the water? Where did they get that from – their Amar Chitra comics?

    If they object to the destruction of the area for other reasons(there was some article about the change in currents), then I have no problem. They need to let the guy express his opinion and shut up about their own ignorance.

  5. i don’t know the history of his party but would he hesitate to insult siva, ganesh etc since most Tamils I think are Shaivites?

    He is an atheist and I am sure given the opportunity (if he has not already said so) he will put down any god.

    Here are the religious demographics, without any stats, I think there is an equal split among shaivites and vaishnavites. In fact I think a large segment of tamils worship both sides, so I doubt that it is playing a role in his comments.

  6. i dont know if he is gettin an under-desk bribe over this contract to build the canal or he is from the opposing party but this is just ridiculous coming from a CM. Didnt NASA say something about this too? some satellite pictures of the region?

  7. A lot of Tamilians worship Lord Venkateshwara in Tirupati. Wouldn’t that be a vaishnavite thing since he is a manifestation of Vishnu(i never understood why he is not considered one of the Dasavatarams).

  8. I wish there was more coverage of the ecological and economic effects of this shipping channel. Instead, this stupid debate about gods, myths takes center-stage.

    What was ironic was that the ship (or whatever it is called) to start digging the canal sunk, they got a crane to rescue the ship that sunk and they had to get a bigger crane to rescue both. The bigger crane was called Hanuman. No seriously, I will post the link as soon as I find it.

  9. I dont get it. 90% of sepia’s posts are focussed on India and dbds living in desh. But when the dbds out here request some coverage of issues faced in the US (Immigration Voice’s rally efforts) it falls on deaf ears. Even the success of this historical rally is not mentioned. Forget any of the DC meetup atteendees just showing up during lunch to provide support.

    Of course the reason might just be shallow to the point of “Oh these DBD’s immigration issues – how boring – yawn”

  10. Yabadaba, it is what it is. If it doesn’t interest us, we will not blog about it. There is no strict guideline to give equal time to every issue. So what if a lot of DBD related stuff gets coverage. Maybe its a way for ABDs to learn more about india. Immigration minutia is not an issue for a lot of us. We did talk about Canada trying to limit names such as Singh in the past because it relates to personal identity and cultural origin.

  11. Pravin – I agree with your comment, “They seriously think Rama is a real guy who built an actual bridge to Sri Lanka? Did he get Hanuman to put boulders in the water? Where did they get that from – their Amar Chitra comics?”

    But what yanks my chain is when people are afraid to assign similar analysis to the “miracles” performed by the Jesus Christs and Muhammads of yore. Do you really believe that Jesus came back from the nether side or, Muhammad rode to heaven on a mare?

  12. I do want to add that despite my contempt for the protestors, I would like to see them preserve the existing “bridge” for the sake of cultural importance kind of like how we preserve landmark structures. If enough people feel attached to it, why not.

  13. for the sake of cultural importance kind of like how we preserve landmark structures. If enough people feel attached to it, why not.

    Well besides cultural significance, there is apparently a very minor financial incentive, so small that a government will normally drop such projects.

    I respect peoples beliefs, but this project has more holes than a jalebi.

  14. I thought we covered the Gandhigiri-esque protest via flower delivery to USCIS? I’m trying to find the link, YabaDaba.

    If we don’t cover topic X, that’s not necessarily a statement of our feelings re: its importance…it’s almost always more about time.

  15. It is well documented that Karuna has issues only with Hindus, Hindu Gods, Temples and beliefs and always feels compelled to put down people who practice it. He never spews the same kind of vitriol against other religious groups and entities, nor does he have any issues having an alliance with BJP when the opportunity is right.

  16. welcome to the world of fundies; i believe that everyone should be allowed to make merciless fun of deities of all religions. but i prefer such mockery to be reserved only for people who use religious argumentation first to enforce their preferences on those who disagree (in other words i prefer not to use mockery gratuitously, only when the situation warrants it). so i cannot find fault with karunanidhi, given the situation. at the same time it seems that karuna is also tying to needle…maybe needlessly?

  17. Yabadaba, I wrote about it this July, if that matters at all…

    The most infuriating aspect of it all— people who are here illegally are now standing in the same virtual line for a limited and precious commodity. I can totally understand the pain; you do the right thing, follow the rules and then someone cuts in front of you— and you’re S.O.L. It happened when I tried to buy Pixies tickets a few years ago and that stung. I can’t imagine the anguish over this, which is 100x more important. [sm]
  18. these sorts of issues get throw into a black & white dichotomy

    1) if the CM is an atheist of course he doesn’t believe that ram existed, and like many atheists he probably thinks that the imaginings of religious people are a bit silly and unproductive in the grand utilitarian scheme of things.

    2) that being said, it is simply a fact of this universe that atheists are a minority, for the majority of our species gods do exist in terms how they model with the world. additionally, not only do these gods exist, but they are personalities, and people develop strong emotional attachments to them.

    3) so an atheist calling out theists on these issues is going to result in some hurt. but it can go both ways, i know atheists (and various forms of theists) who are ‘offended’ that particular theists believe everyone not of their belief is going to hell. but in a utilitarian scheme who really cares about the beliefs of a group of people who after all believe things you believe are silly? well, it is the thought that counts sometimes, and you want them to see you as fully human beings, not just the ‘unsaved’ who are less than they because you don’t believe in some fairy tale.

    4) so in normal life there is a lot that is left unsaid. consider you hanging out with a friend who is ugly, very ugly. everyone in the room knows that your friend is ugly, including the friend. but if you comment, ‘you know you’re ugly!’ well, that would hurt feelings. but why? nothing has changed about the facts that everyone agrees to in the room. well, now imagine that you don’t agree no the facts! that makes it more complicated, doesn’t it?

    5) yes, from the perspective of the atheist religious people are kooks that waste a lot of time. there’s really no ontological difference between massive temple complexes of the ‘great religious’ and a papuan fetishist cutting down the forest to construct huge cocks that they dance around to propitiate the fertility gods. that being said, say you’re an atheist, and your mother just dies. she’s gone. her self, her brain, is now no longer as soup of electrochemistry. she’s just atoms. now, what your friend decides to step on her remains? what does that matter? they’re just atoms, the remains of what was your mother. why would you care? the reality is that most atheists would care about the remains of the individual who was their loved one.

    6) human psychology gives us particular biases and impulses, it confers on us a tendency to essential, animize, objects. there are all sorts of unconscious subprocesses out there which speak to why we do “irrational” things. it also speaks to the agreed up norms (axioms) which we use to judge what is, or isn’t, rational. in short, humans are far more than the words they put on paper, or the short little punchy sentences they throw out in a debate. yes, i believe that nothing of sentience will be in the body of my loved one will be there if she dies, if her brain ceases to function. that being said, i’ll kill anyone that suggests that i reprocess her tissue to make cat food for my pets. why? i’m not going to front, that’s just how i feel about it. i honor her memory, and so i would honor her remains.

    7) so from the perspective of an atheist i would say it isn’t as simple as the silly beliefs of religious people that they need to get over. it’s complicated, we’re all embedded in a personal cloud of assumptions, biases and impulses we can’t, and probably would object to, accounting for. for the religious person they need to understand that their love is not everyone else’s love, that in fact, the object of their devotion is nothing but a delusion for many others (fundamentalist christians and muslims make this explicit in regards to “heathen” religion, your gods are demons and delusions, false idols). but though we may agree upon truths, humanity sometimes demands silence.

    8) so we live in a gray world where compromise and give or take is reality. we’re not islands, we’re social beings who want to get along, we’re creatures with fellow feeling. that means there isn’t a rule book which separates the black from the white, the light from the dark, where the truth stands on one side and the false on the other. to my fellow atheists, we should never have shame about our beliefs, for truth, but being human does mean that we have to compromise with the universe as it is not belief ourselves gods who can create it anew in our image.

  19. But what yanks my chain is when people are afraid to assign similar analysis to the “miracles” performed by the Jesus Christs and Muhammads of yore. Do you really believe that Jesus came back from the nether side or, Muhammad rode to heaven on a mare?

    Curisor, Trust me. I got a lot to say about that stuff too. But people like Anna on this site have done a great job understanding other religions more than many Hindu Indian Americans. So I am not going to start bashing all the beliefs of these religions I find amusing if they are not related to the diary entry at hand. If someone puts up an entry on evolution debate in US schools, people like me won’t hold back on the stupidity of Christian fundies or in the case of Sania Mirza’s dress, how the Islamic fundies needed to get a life.

  20. Its the DMK. They don’t like God(s). It’s also a bit of a north-south thing. I don’t think the anti-Hinduism sentiment of Tamil Nadu (Periyar, etc) would make any sense to a Northerner.

    In any case, unlike Ayodhya, which was a tragedy, this Ram-brouhaha is quickly turning into a farce. See this comment on Karuna:

    BJP vice-president Mukhtar Abbas Naqvi said “such a statement could only be made by a person suffering from mental bankruptcy.

    I really doubt Mr. Abbas Naqvi thinks Ram was real. So what’s the state of his mental bank account?

  21. I think both sides are coming from wrong point of views. It would be a lot saner world if the BJP came from the environmental concern view & Karuna was a little respectful to the belief of a large population & stressed of the economic front. Superstition it may be, but his statements fall on deaf ears of the mostly religious population.

    @Curious #12 : Christianity can accept rational views & ignore them , but i don’t think islam does. Only in hinduism or ‘sanatan dharma’ have they been debating this connect between physics & metaphysics truly for centuries.

  22. No, seriously, what kind of pointless, snickering question is THAT? And doesn’t this man value his LIFE? Or, I don’t know, his family’s?

    –> I think he can rest assured knowing DMK cadres will burn enough buses(with or without people in them) if MK is attacked. As for his family, I am sure they have gotten used to nut case reactions. After all, they have initiated quite a few from their side too(Their family ‘jewel’, Azhagiri, did burn down a newspaper office 2 or 3 months back as retaliation for some articles in that newspaper) .

    He likes to talk some smack, doesn’t he? Yowza.

    –> Not a good idea to pick on someone who has talked smack about religion for a long time.

    I know that several of you are outraged over this (and I sympathize completely…I may not be of the same faith, but I’m a person OF faith), so I hope we can all take a collective deep breath and discuss this. I know I’m not the only one who is interested in reading what some of you have to say.

    –> I agree completely with what he said and am not at all outraged. Ram is a mythological character. And to use Ram Setu as the sole reason for scuttling the sethu samudram project is narrow minded ignorance, which, for religion in general, is not out of place.

    What is next ? A boulder in India cannot be removed because Ram released Ahalya from it ? All squirrels are protected under Hindu religious endowments because Ram acknowledged their help in building that bridge ?

    Sethusamudram project has other deficiencies. To focus on the religious aspect of it to the exclusion of others is stupidity.

  23. I think both sides are coming from wrong point of views. It would be a lot saner world if the BJP came from the environmental concern view & Karuna was a little respectful to the belief of a large population & stressed of the economic front. Superstition it may be, but his statements fall on deaf ears of the mostly religious population.

    from a religious point of view it is often more prudent to argue from a secular angle because it doesn’t elicit summary dismissal. e.g., many christian social conservatives make utilitarian arguments to a general audience in the united states because they know that “the bible says so” isn’t going to fly.

    @Curious #12 : Christianity can accept rational views & ignore them , but i don’t think islam does. Only in hinduism or ‘sanatan dharma’ have they been debating this connect between physics & metaphysics truly for centuries.

    be careful about generalizing about a particular religion. to respond precisely, mutazili views still exist in shiism.

  24. the CM needs to read Machiavelli. to paraphrase, while the prince should never be too religious–since excessive religious sentiment will prevent one from doing the cruel things necessary to stay in power–the prince should always appear to be religious, since then he will have the goodwill of the people, which is a prince’s most powerful weapon.

    anyone who know anything about neoconservatism knows we are atheists (straus, bloom, wolfowitz). but look how shrewdly bush got the support of the religious.

  25. So Rama did not exist but somehow managed to down a few drinks regularly? That’s some next level, 5th dimension talk Kalaingar.

  26. ANNA:

    You are right. Amardeep had posted about the gandhigiri protest. However, on Tuesday there was a rally at DC that has been called historical by some influential attorneys.

    linky: http://blogs.ilw.com/gregsiskind/2007/09/iv-rally-being-.html http://blogs.ilw.com/gregsiskind/2007/09/immigrants-of-t.html

    I guess here’s the thing, when you guys at sepia talk about female foeticide and other social issues that are messed up in India, the feeling that we DBDs get is that you guys care about the Indian diaspora. Even though you are not Indian, like Pravin said, you guys are trying to learn about India through this medium and it shows that you care.

    In a generation my ABD daughter will be where you are right now and as a parent it reaffirms my decision of raising my kid here.

    But when issues like the rally or the fiasco that led to the Gandhigiri protest are ignored it feels like slight from sepia’s part cos the anguish this immigration system has brought about is ridiculous.

  27. I do believe that at one inappropriately hilarious moment during this fustercluck, Karunanidhi tried to make a point by asking where Ram went to engineering school? What the…? I mean, obviously he went to IIT. Just like Jesus went to Harvard. No, seriously, what kind of pointless, snickering question is THAT? And doesn’t this man value his LIFE? Or, I don’t know, his family’s?

    Karunanidhi is precisely famous for this kind of talk. He is considered a very good and witty orator. Most of the people in TN knows he talks like this. And that is why dravidian parties win time and again. And only very religious people will be offended, which by the way are in a minority in TN. I would like to point out the outrage against his daughter was in Karnataka not TN.

  28. (straus, bloom, wolfowitz)

    bloom & strauss weren’t neocons. just because jesus christ influences social conservatives doesn’t mean that he’s a social conservative (read the NT for example!).

    An atheist managed to become the CM of an Indian state? Surely not.

    nehru was an agnostic.

  29. I’m just curious…. how many mutineers are honest-to-god (pun intended) religious believers in Ram/Krishna/Vishnu/Brahma/Laxmi/Sita and the whole panoply of Hindu gods and goddesses? I mean is there anyone who believes in the Ramayana or Bhagvata Gita as literal truth and prays to an altar of Ganesh everyday (like my mom)? Just to be clear, I’m not trying to mock anyone, I am simply curious. (And, to forestall any criticism, yes, I am aware that there are many people other than Hindus here, I am mainly curious about religious Hindus, although I would love to hear from any religiious faithful about their convictions).

  30. This is all verrrry interesting. 🙂 I’m learning a lot.

    Also, who else hearts Shodan-san’s comment? 😀

  31. Lurker here…now revealing myself.

    Razib@#19: Good analysis !

    I think one of the keys is the role symbols play in our lives. Even though a majority of people may not literally believe that Rama built the bridge with the help of an army of monkeys, it is still a powerful (and visible) symbol which is part of many peoples’ upbringing. Any (perceived) attack on such symbols will cause a strong reaction. And we all know that during the Babri Masjid-Ram Janmabhoomi days, feelings of insecurity among Hindus was stirred up and exploited – Ram Janmabhoomi was another important symbol. The same thing is happening now.

    Also it is well known that Karunanidhi is an anti-Aryan (translating, I guess to anti-Hindu). Someone like him making such harsh statements will definitely stir things up. Add to the mix some very “interested parties” trying to whip up more feelings of insecurity (they don’t have to try very hard), the whole is a recipe for trouble – lots of it.

  32. I understand the sentiment behind preserving cultural artefacts, but this one is real expensive. From Wikipedia:

    The plan is to dredge the shallow ocean floor near the Dhanushkodi end of Rama’s Bridge to create enough leeway allowing ships to pass through the channel instead of having to go around the island of Sri Lanka. It is expected to save nearly 30 hours’ shipping time by cutting over 400 km off the voyage.

    That sounds like a lot of fossil fuels being burned, assuming this is a somewhat busy shipping lane. Setting aside environmental damage (because of my ignorance of the issues there), this channel can really help. Can the Ram camp be happy with most of the bridge being in tact? Why can’t we carve a 1m channel and leave the other 50miles for cultural heritage?

  33. I love that in India (unlike in the US) politicians can make unabashedly anti-religion statements and still get elected, even though the population is quite religiously observent. God bless the indian atheists.

    I also think it’s great that this whole ancient-bridge-to-Srilanka-b.s. is hopefully finally being put to rest. Then again, I realize that it’s impossible to reason a person out of something he wasn’t reasoned into so I can expect to get more forwarded emails in the future about it.

  34. nehru was an agnostic.

    I don’t think Nehru made it a point to stress his agnosticism before junta. Whereas Karunanidhi seems to be doing so cheerfully.

    I am still surprised that a publicly atheist politician can make it in des.

  35. 26 Manju

    the CM needs to read Machiavelli. to paraphrase, while the prince should never be too religious–since excessive religious sentiment will prevent one from doing the cruel things necessary to stay in power–the prince should always appear to be religious, since then he will have the goodwill of the people, which is a prince’s most powerful weapon.

    –> I am sure MK will have a chuckle over that comment.

    Not every state imbibes religion as an opiate. When it comes to political mobilisation, Tamilnadu imbibes language(and race) consciousness as its poison. MK doesnt need to appear as a language fanatic, he lives it. Hence, MK can afford to pass up on religion and use language(and race) consciousness as a means of holding onto power. When one opiate can replace another, you can always use the alternative.

    Obviously, my speculation.

  36. I’m just curious…. how many mutineers are honest-to-god (pun intended) religious believers in Ram/Krishna/Vishnu/Brahma/Laxmi/Sita and the whole panoply of Hindu gods and goddesses?

    I know you wanted to hear from Hindus specifically, but I’ll chime in unnecessarily; I have always believed in God. I’ve had phases when I was torn about organized religion, but I’ve always believed.

    ::

    When I was young, I watched the Mahabharata serial with my dad– twice. I loved it so much, my mom asked (half-joking, half-irritated) if I believed “it”, as in, did I believe that Draupadi, Krishna et al existed. I blurted out yes, to everyone’s surprise, including my own. 🙂 Then we watched Ramayana and I was so outraged by what Sita went through, my mom seized the opportunity to ask if I believed IT happened. I said, “no”, at which point she brought up my belief in the other epic and told me that if I was going to be a Hindu, I couldn’t half-ass it. 🙂

  37. I am still surprised that a publicly atheist politician can make it in des.

    The whole Dravida-DK-DMK movement was anti-religion. And then there are the commies also.

  38. I love that in India (unlike in the US) politicians can make unabashedly anti-religion statements and still get elected, even though the population is quite religiously observent. God bless the indian atheists.

    Is this true all over India, or is TN an anomaly. Any examples/stats?

  39. @Shoan 27 “So Rama did not exist but somehow managed to down a few drinks regularly? That’s some next level, 5th dimension talk Kalaingar.”

    Maybe he wants to say that the fictional novel ramayana, written by the best selling author valmiki had a protagonist named rama who was fond of soma ras. Thats an old edition , heres the new one.

  40. I agree with Razib. That is why I actually think people have the right to want to preserve something as memorable as that “bridge”. Hell, I dont believe in the stuff, but I wouldn’t mind it remaining there. I think it is a matter of just juggling priorities and degree of sentimental attachments.

    But the protestors were out of line to go after Karunanidhi’s family with violent reactions.

  41. Yes, Ashvin is correct in #39–whole history of Periyar, DMK is rationalist, anti-religion, pro-development (here, canal-building). Not all ppl. in Desh are superstitious.

  42. 27 Shodan

    So Rama did not exist but somehow managed to down a few drinks regularly? That’s some next level, 5th dimension talk Kalaingar.

    –> “Even Valmiki has said that Ram was a drunkard. I urge Advani to get into a debate with me after reading Valmiki’s Ramayana,” Karunanidhi said.[IBN]

    MK was just pointing out to Ram’s character in Valmiki Ramayana as Valmiki said it.

    To me, it is fascinating how MK has used this controversy. This just gives him a way to differentiate himself from JJ. After all, JJ wouldnt even think of making such a comment. As ‘honorary’ inheritors of periyar’s legacy, this should allow MK to claim he(aka DMK) is more rationalist than JJ(aka ADMK).

  43. Isn\’t it heartening to know that the ranks of the \”Brights\”=Atheists are swelling. Way to go Karunanidhi!! The ridiculous monstrosity of religion should be ridiculed into \”oblivion\”

  44. Pravin@11: Yabadaba, it is what it is. If it doesn’t interest us, we will not blog about it.

    Hmmm … I should remember that. SM is not about the community, it is about the ‘us’ who run SM.

    Pravin@11: Immigration minutia is not an issue for a lot of us.

    I doubt if female foeticide is an issue for a lot of us, and yet it was discussed here.

    What an arrogant putdown of a perfectly reasonable request from yabadaba. At least Anna came back with a more reasonable response.

  45. Damn Lemurians who do not understand our privileged Indo-Europo-Scythian heritage! We make bridges over straits 10000000 years before the Channel Tunnel was constructed by aping decadent vesterners who were still in trees. Do not make mockery of Aryasabhyata!!! We make bridges and you vant to destroy it to remove tangible traces of our glorious ancient civilization! Before the Great Wall of the chinese was visible from the Moon by space-racing West, our ancient sages meditating in trans-galactic constellations saw the Bridge across the Seas connecting Bharata to Lanka!

  46. Karunanidhi can really be characterized as an atheist. He is mainly known for (a) stopping brahmin domination and (b) challenging North Indian politicians on Hindi in the days when parties did not need to form coalitions to form a government in the Center. Atheism, criticism of Sanskrit, criticism of Ramayana etc. were corollaries of (a) and (b). This is why he criticized Hinduism mainly. To avoid charges of hate speech, he would make a token criticism of other religions—just about enough so that no one could prove in a court of law that his speech could cause communal disturbance.

    Things are different now. Tamil brahmins are no longer dominant and North Indian politicians need South Indian politicians to form coalition governments. Therefore (a) and (b) are things of the past. Karunanidhi has changed. He has shared a stage with Sai Baba. He always wears a yellow shawl—word is that the yellow shawl is for guru palan (good luck from Jupiter). He makes very few negative comments on Hinduism. His party’s magazine covers astrology prominently.

    The point is that atheism was an instrument by which Karunanidhi achieved certain objectives. Once those objectives were achieved, atheism became less important.