Mmmm, snark:
Leger poll shows Sikhs are the least liked religion in Canada (liked by only 53% of Canadians). Jews are the most liked minority religion (78%), Muslims at 61%. No data on Christians, or on people who commission really stupid polls. [Ikram]
But what about Jewish Sikhs? Feh. Fresh from the News Tab, some meshugge story in the Montreal Gazette which deserves Ikram’s (and perhaps your) scorn; Canadians apparently respect Sikhs less than members of other religions, and the amount of contact a Canadian has with a person influences their perception of them. Shocking, but true.
Asked whether they had a favourable opinion of each group, the 1,500 people surveyed by LΓΒ©ger Marketing across Canada said they hold Jews in the highest esteem (78 per cent), Muslims considerably lower (61 per cent) and Sikhs least of all (53 per cent).
And in each case, how much a person approves of one of the minority religions depends on how much contact he or she has had with them. The more contact, the higher the esteem, the poll found.
Forty-five per cent of Canadians are in contact with Jews often or occasionally, according to the poll. Only 37 per cent are in touch with Muslims, and only 21 per cent with Sikhs.
One thing to keep in mind– there are fewer Jewish people than Muslims, in Canada (pronounced Kuh-NAH-da, natch).
According to the 2001 federal census (religion data from the 2006 census are not yet available), there are 330,000 Jews in Canada and 580,000 Muslims. Sikhs number 278,000.
Y’all need to hold some Bhangra Blowout-esque event in Quebec. π
Sikhs are best-known in B.C. (44 per cent), Alberta (30 per cent) and Ontario (25 per cent); they’re virtually unknown in Quebec (four per cent, lowest in the country).
But if it is any consolation, people in Quebec also had the least favorable views on Jews. Ha! I rhymed.
Only 69 per cent of Quebecers have a favourable opinion of Jews – the lowest level in Canada. By contrast, Jews are held in highest esteem in the Maritimes (85 per cent), the Prairies (84 per cent) and Ontario (80 per cent).
Familiarity breeds respect, in British Columbia:
Muslims fare best in Ontario and the Maritimes (about 66 per cent) and worst in Quebec (52 per cent). Sikhs are best-regarded in B.C. (66 per cent), Ontario (59 per cent) and Alberta (51 per cent).
Behold, the confusion:
About one in 10 people polled refused to answer the question or simply didn’t know what they thought, except regarding Sikhs. For Sikhs, a higher percentage – one in four – refused or didn’t answer, perhaps reflecting lack of knowledge of Sikhs (except in B.C., where 14 per cent declined to answer or had no opinion).
And now, for you freaks who like statistics and methods and other things which have given me hives, since grad school:
Conducted for the Montreal-based Association for Canadian Studies, the telephone poll was done over seven days from Aug. 22 to 28. It has a margin of error of plus or minus 3.1 per cent, 19 times out of 20.
The only useful thought I have regarding this survey is that we create understanding when we interact with others, as opposed to segregating ourselves; we need to educate our friends, coworkers and classmates, when it is feasible and comfortable to do so. The useless thought? One day, all white people should know as much about India as Gwen Stefani does…dating and singing songs about how a cute brown boy broke their heart…optional. π
At least Canadians know who Sikhs are and that they are not the same as Muslims. I wonder how Americans would fare in a poll like this.
i think sikhs are a huge minority group in canada. not so much in the US.
This thread is rapidly going downhill…I’m still hoping Camille and others will chime in before it gets closed.
Anyway, SM Intern, since Prema was banned before, can you consider banning Sathya too, since it’s the same person with the same abrasive and disruptive style? And can people lay off Razib and can we discuss the matter at hand?
Razib – keep at it with your racist comments and soon you will outgoring Pardesi Gori. Congrats on being a tough guy – am sure all desis will bow down to your superior well rounded abilities.
The gangstas from India would be out of their depth in Oz. So we need a few homegrown tough guys. I am happy to export a few of them to USA if you chaps cant hack it.
Muralimannered – wonder if you are on this thread.
Will SM intern consider banning Razib for his obvious racist comments ?
Razib – keep at it with your racist comments and soon you will outgoring Pardesi Gori. Congrats on being a tough guy – am sure all desis will bow down to your superior well rounded abilities.
i think i’m good as long as i don’t start hitting on abhi….
amitabh, please lay off my lady love. need i remind you that you are descended from low caste sudra peasants and should know your place?
melbournedesi, independent of all the strutting around in the comments by everybody, there is a lot of truth to razib’s statement tnat “a nerd at 17 is a confident professional with good credit at 35. you need to change your time preference.” i would love to see if you would want the preferred outcome for your kid to be that he is the low-rider, bling wearing, switch-knife sporting neighborhood terror who gets into fights, gets expelled from school, and runs the risk of being shot when he isn’t paying attention while walking in a dark alley. or if you would want to live in a neighborhood prowled by such people.
The best desi cultural product of Canada (I’m not kidding, I think this guy is awesome).
It’s Jazzy B aka Jaswinder Bains. Canadian-raised, but lives in the UK now and all his music and production is done by a UK-raised desi, Sukshinder Shinda. So even Canada’s best still need the UK.
Jazzy B about 12 or 14 years ago…this shows that Canadian desi youth based in Vancouver already had issues even then! Good song though.
I was raised in such an environment. To folks who are familiar with Chennai – try Vyasarpadi and Basin Bridge.
Yeah provided he/she is the top dog not a follower. As Steven Leavitt says no money in being a footsoldier.
As Steven Leavitt says no money in being a footsoldier.
why the hell are you quoting that square levitt? john clark bates medal winner, outsiding thesis for an undergrad in econ at harvard, and on and on. f*king nerd.
Posted the wrong link in #159…THIS is the song from 12-14 years ago.
I am outta here – the surf beckons.
Melbourne Desi speaks the truth to a certain extent…
Slightly off topic because American Idol’s Sanjaya was thrown off a while ago, BUT….
is it possible that sanjaya was just kept on to appease the growing population of second-generation children of indian immigrants who think they’re cool by being carbon-copies of what j. crew and television tell them to be? (because otherwise they’re embarassed of their otherwise drab existence as comical stereotypes for american humorous consumption?)
for every sanjaya, there is an indian girl in your high school or uni who’s embarrased of who she really is, so she just conforms and tries to be like the people that will never really understand her. she tries to be white-washed/gorafied/coconut, and it’s just depressing. for every sanjaya, there’s a bloke sanjay, again, in your uni or high school, who wears polo shirts with popped collars and gap jeans and tries to be faceless, without a personality, and on whose profile lists his favorite movies as “ocean’s eleven” and “bourne identity” and only dates white girls. THINK ABOUT IT.
but what choice do we have as immigrants to a new country? either get made fun of, or become faceless, boring, unthreatening.
either get made fun of, or become faceless, boring, unthreatening.
you know the saying that it’s good times when life isn’t exciting? interesting that you use sanjaya as an example, he was raised by his white mom in a non-trad way.
and you voted with your feet about your preference for such an environment by moving to oz.
even with the uncertain shelf life, life expectancy, and guaranteed legal troubles of these top dogs? i find this glorification of violence very troublesome. as i said before, there is a difference between being the kid who keeps getting the wedgies in middle school, one who is able to stand up for himself, and the one who engages in unprovoked violence or indulges in provocation. i might have sympathy for #1, none for approach #3.
Sanjay…errm,Razib, I believe this applies to you:
THIS SONG was even played at the ultra-snobby club Enigma in Mumbai (J.W. Marriott) when I was there.
[Wakes up]
Vyasarpadi – Basin Bridge area is not particularly great to live in, as can be said about some stretches north of Poonamallee High Road, but that’s mainly due to poverty and drunk people who shriek incoherently through the night. It’s not necessarily associated with violent crime, which I suspect is what Dravidian Lurker was going for in his description (#157). I’ve lived in South Madras for most of the time I was in Madras, except for a 1-year stint in an unhealthy part of Perambur, upon which I’m basing my description. If you have better experience of Vyasarpadi area (even if anecdotal), feel free to correct me.
[Snoozes off]
π
I leave this blog alone for less than four hours and my thread turns in to a cesspool.
What’s wrong with you lot, as Punjabi Boy once would’ve said, in another mutinous era?
Razib is not a racist or a bad person.
Amitabh is not a sudra whatever.
Joey Staples, Sathya and even Spicy Brown Munda all fed the flames…anyone with sense and a bit of distance from this clusterfuck could see what Razib meant with the Bihar comment– it was not what most of you thought and then had fun with…Melbourne Desi, I see a grave miscommunication, and that is a shame.
This is just so depressing.
You know, I can spit a blue streak like the best of them, but some of the comments which a few of you have shat here are disgusting. Shame on you. And no, they weren’t funny, so you can’t use that loophole in our commenting policy.
I guess if I don’t tether myself to this space and moderate it all day, it decays in to…this. Fantastic.
was that an allusion to my comment #157 where i paid homage to my main squeeze sathya?
pingpong and melbournedesi, the only relevance of basin bridge to me is that it indicates that the train is just 10 minutes from madras central π and yes, i was alluding to violent crime, the kind that naturally associates with the kind of attitude being glorified here.
Honey, I can’t keep track. I saw a news tab story that got my attention, wrote what I thought was a cute post, took my my-grammar-sucks lumps…saw an interesting discussion develop, went home…and then everything went to hell!
I know some of you were mocking the stupidity which other commenters/trolls spewed, but the problem is, the tone of this thread was so awful, it drowned out your attempts to be subtle and witty. Sigh.
’tis indeed true that hell hath no fury like a sathya scorned. would she have insinutated that i was a low class female foeticiding sudra peasant descendant otherwise? and when i am so low in castiness, how would i have any classiness. and it is not truthiness when i say that i am not amitabh (not even this one). apologies to stephen colbert.
but sathya, i still hold a torch for you. my flag will continue to fly at half mast when i think of you.
LMAO dravidian lurker, you must be a Tamil Brahmin, innit. In the UK and US (ones I seen), the Tamil Brahmins appear to be the most white-washed/gorafied/coconut Southies. Mate, you shouldn’t be ashamed of your skin color.
I get the impression that Punjabis are associated with gangsterism and thuggery in Canada. Every young desi I’ve met from there seems to know someone “who’s in the Punjabi mafia,” so the poll result didn’t surprise me when Anna posted it. Like everywhere else, Punjabis are prominent in the taxi business, and generally tend to get respect for efficiency and curteous service. I dare say no one beats Punjabis in the taxi business.
Sathya and Spicy Brown Munda:
Did you read my comment?
Wow…just wow. Look at all these trolls (dravidian lurker, risible, Sathya, Desi Ganwar, butter chicken, Accidental Enlightenment)- you silly wankers! : p
I’m out. Peace.
Nope. And that’s why I deleted your comment. Enough, people.
spicy brown munda, you are so right. i loathe my skin color so much my primary care physician is michael jackson’s plastic surgeon. also, spicy brown munda, i am a huge fan of your subtle sense of humor and your sophisticated understanding of irony and sarcasm. if i could ever bring myself to want to be brown, it will only be due to mundams (tamil brahmins will understand) like you.
Okay EVERYONE needs to STFU with the stupid, hurtful stereotypes. All of you need a fucking timeout.
I don’t know what’s wrong with me — for some reason all the blatantly ridiculous comments going back and forth didn’t bother me at all this time. Maybe because I’ve seen worse on SM and was just happy that we hadn’t scraped the barrel with our usual lows? π
It’s actually popular across regardless of “assimilation level,” and it is prevalent in the second/third generation of ABPunjus, also.
Amitabh, one of the major differences between UK and Canada Sikhs is the skew that comes from UK migration policy (historically biased towards educated elites with little to no asylum leeway until the 70s, when you get a Bangla influx). Canada’s Sikhs are historically more spread in terms of SES and SES clustering (i.e. inequality is greater, but if you take the average it may appear similar to the UK). I’m with chachaji on this one — the role of Sikhs in BC and the like is substantially different and has a markedly different migrational history than the U.S. or UK.
Also, for those who have been talking about the “thuggery / lack of assimilation” argument, personally I don’t think that’s really the case. Maybe this is the economist in me, but I think a lot of it is driven by economic options, prior human capital, and SES upon integration into the U.S. (socially and economically). I meet tons of affluent, non-gangster, exclusionary desis in the U.S. (Punju and otherwise). That said, you’ll also find a greater socioeconomic spread and greater levels of “gangsta/thug” pockets (and by extension, poverty) in areas with larger desi populations. Sometimes I wonder if this is because we just get a broader SES spread?
razib, in communities where there is nothing but the underground economy thugs and gangstas keep money flowing. I’m not saying they’re good or preferred or anything — where I was growing up people referred to them as “[social] parasites” (their words, not mine) –, but in the absence of economy and community policing they were coming up.
Also, I would like to formally ask that we (regular commentators) stop feeding the troll. I know I’ve fed it in the past, but I think the best approach is ignoring its comments 100%, including any personal attacks. Really, everything that’s typed is such ridiculous vomit that it’s not worth any attention, imo. I like to think of this as an exercise in achieving a zen-like state of disassocation.
I can’t believe I’m responding to this, but lest anyone misread my silence….are you nuts???
SM Intern or ANNA could easily disprove you, but you know what, I hope they don’t even waste their time. But they should definitely ban your ass.
See, if this Johnny Lever look-alike (that’s my mental image of Prema/Satya) is allowed to roam free on this site, threads all implode.
OMG, by “integration into the U.S.” I meant “integration into Canada.” Wow, I guess I let my biases through re: America Junior π
Also, totally love Southall. It is an unreal (in a good way) experience, but I kind of loved being desi in London in general. It’s such a different experience than being desi anywhere else.
And no one got the Kanye ref! π
(I’m just venting, now)
Camille, thanks for the thoughtful comment. When the economist in you comes out, you’re still easy to understand, for those of us who might have dropped Econ before failing it, not that there’s anything wrong with that.
Ah, you meant President Harper doesn’t care about Sikh people? Well, the study says that people who actually interact with them don’t have these biases. So maybe the solution is to bring Sikhsy back?
I’ve been hearing about Southall since the early 90s, I can’t wait to experience (and flickr) it. Especially Glassy Junction.
I felt that way the moment I stepped off the plane, at Heathrow. I loved London. I naively thought that parts of KanAda would be like it, what with the relatively large amounts of brown people, but after this thread, I’m realizing that
lots of Punjabi Sikhs + not America does not equal London. π
Thanks, ANNA π
I actually was totally giggling at the Kanye reference, but I feel a little bad because I don’t know if being Sikh in Canada is as bad as being stranded in Katrina-hit New Orleans? π [that is NOT meant as a criticism!]
Does this mean Punjus should get together and create a new mashup form of music? It can be like CNN for Brown People =D
OY…I didn’t even think that far. I know it wasn’t a criticism, but it was an excellent point, mija. Sometimes, pop culture (which I’m obviously in love with) has other implications, eh? {— Kanadian vocabulary and thus, on the topic π
Yeah… π Alas, pop culture!
It is soooo worth the long Underground ride from center city! If I’m ever lucky enough to be London-based (and paid in pounds instead of dollars!) I think I’ll just spontaneously combust out of happiness. I’m sure this is the class privilege talking, also, but being middle-class/professional and brown in London, despite the standard racism, still feels so awesome.
Γ’β¬Εbut being middle-class/professional and brown in London, despite the standard racism, still feels so awesome.Γ’β¬Β
The grass is always greener! π
been there, done that. hated it.
Because of the racism? Or the lack of puliogre?
Camille, I’m sure you’re right about differences in immigration patterns between the UK and Canada…but anecdotally, I met PLENTY of people with village origins, and without much formal education, when I was in the UK. The only difference was, having been in the West a lot longer than people in America or Canada (I know, Canada has the oldest desi populations, but in terms of large numbers the UK has the oldest), they didn’t seem so village-like anymore…they had adapted to life in the UK very well and were quite comfortable (I don’t necessarily mean financially) there and seemed to fit in well (in their solidly-desi neighborhoods of course).
i LOVE southall. the first time i went there it was with two canadian-persian/bosnian friends – it was so interesting to see it through their eyes. after that, we started making frequent trips. it really is a great spot – and jalebi junction still blows my mind π might be making a trip in the next few weeks – glassy junction here i come!
though, camille, i didn’t particularly like being desi in london – and i distinctly felt that i would have liked it had i been punjabi (or belonged to another largely represented group). though it also might have helped had i had more social/familial connections with BDBs – i had only a handful of desi friends in london, and almost all were DBD
i was going to write something substantive, but the last few hours’ worth of comments are scary, so i’ll stick to the superficial…
has this become a mutually exclusive situation–that you are either a meek and mild nerd or a thuggish chest-puffer? The US is economically successful because there were/are/will be quite a few individuals who combine industriousness with a risk-taking, adventurous approach; you can be a hard-working, intelligent bad-ass. The level of ‘bad-assness’ is directly correlated to your level of success in whatever undertaking to which you devote the most time. Obviously, selling dope is not something you can advertise in any sort of publication, nor would you be able (as a ‘slanger) to enter the regulated marketplace (i.e. register your company, advertise, maybe even pay taxs…) The Sikh criminals in Canada could never be considered successful because, by most accounts, they haven’t built sustainable commercial enterprises that could survive after being exposed to the public. When the dope runs out, you have nothing to sell. Call me when these ‘slangers successfully integrate clean-money, wholly owned businesses into the canadian marketplace (that didn’t require drug-sourced start-up capital) and we’ll talk about bad-ass status.
I took this to mean that razib was inviting MB to embrace the incredibly lawless and bizarre world of Bihar as he expressed some level of support for existence of desis who were able to physically impose their will on anyone.
Razib, i don’t think that MB was implying that we plunge every western country, where Desis live, into some stygian doom of Bihar-like security and regulatory-like conditions.
MB, Razib was not being a racist or bigot of any sort. He was merely being careless and extrapolating from what was a statement that you clearly needed to clarify. He simply misinterpreted your wistfulness about the possibility of Desis who could ably defend themselves in physical confrontations to be a more blanket view on idyllic societal conditions. There is, of course, nothing wrong with being prepared. No matter how tough you look (or big, or tatted up, etc.) there may be someone who thinks otherwise. However, it is unlikely that you would be able to defend yourself if you didn’t practice some sort of self-defense from time to time (or own a gun–sorry Anna!).
This, Razib, might require some horrifyingly jock/thug-like grunts while practicing or even some pumping of iron. However you accomplish proficiency in self-defense, some athletic potential will have to be tapped and it is VERY possible to be a nerd about the whole thing.
I would have hoped that this discussion could have gone without the Razib Derbyshire allusion, but I would hope our scientist commenter is nothing less than repulsed by that sort of ’empiricism.’ Even if he’s not, there’s still no basis to this statement.
The very first time I was called a sand-nigger, i was facing away from the unfortunate, fish-hook-adorned-hat-owning fool, in shop class (where umpteen hand-held power saws were within his immediate vicinity, not to mention many 2x4s and a roomful of his hick buddies) while building a bird-house. After ‘sand-nigger’ became his own mantra, and his piety was expressed in the most devout of tones (for most of class), and after the cowardly chorus of chortling from his hick henchmen, I walked away.
I consider myself to be a bad-ass because I did not acknowledge him, did not turn around and get beat down, nor did I lose a limb to a Cletus given to experiencing paroxysms of lynch fantasy and ritual mutilation. But let’s say that I was actually quite a bad-ass (by MB’s reckoning) and attempted to redress my grievances by physically assaulting him. What good could possibly come of that?
Welcome to my world! π
Seriously though, I agree – I had snoozed off for a while and when I woke up there was a surreal and bizarre poo-flinging match going on where I really could not make any contribution.
On the funny side (such as it is) – Anna coming and breaking up the fight was exactly like how my mom used to break up food fights between me & my sis when I was single-digit aged!
the racism, and the high cost of living. also a lot of bankers in britain act like they were born with a silver spoon up their ass.
i made my own puliogre. the puli goes with puli wherever he goes.
If anyone wants to take public transport to Southall, the best way is either take the Underground to Paddington Station and then a Thames Train to Southall…OR…take an Underground to Ealing(?) and then a bus to Southall. If you’re already at Heathrow, then it’s really easy…a quick bus ride. There’s no actual Underground station at Southall. The train station has all the signs in Punjabi though, it’s pretty cool.
ANNA, Southall, like all ethnic enclaves eventually do, is going through succession…meaning that desis are gradually moving out now (as they improve economically) and others, most notably Somalis, are moving in. Desis are still very huge there, and will be for a while, and Southall Broadway (the main road) is still a unique experience, but I think the place is past the dizzying heights of its desi heydey in the 80s and early 90s.
Best desi food outside India.
Anyone been to Birmingham? How does the famous Soho Road compare to Southall area?
This made me want one, for the first time, ever. π