After a very well attended meetup in NYC, the Meetup Road Tour makes its way to San Francisco this weekend.
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| Sunday, August 26 | San Francisco |
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3pm — ??? Café Greco 423 Columbus Ave |
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Parking’s a pain in North Beach but, Brimful (bless her soul) pointed out a nearby parking garage for the folks driving in. Other places to find a spot include the many garages in Union Square and / or street parking in SOMA / Fin District. From there, it’s easy to walk / taxi / cable car it over. It ain’t that far.
Incorporating some cues / feedback from NYC, we’re going to experiment a bit with the format of the SF meetup…
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Desi Boyz in SF apparently need a lot of dating advice. That topic will surely come up… |
A few highlights –
- Location — SF’s meetup is going to be at a relatively good sized coffee house with a far more open layout
- Time — The meetup will be on a lazy Sunday afternoon; our contention for the space (if any) will more likely be against random North Beach tourists vs. focused, club-clad New Yorkers
- Nametags — I’ll be distributing ’em and you folks will decorate ’em with your RealNames and/or Handles ; a nametag in a coffee house isn’t quite the dorkbadge that one would be at an NYC bar.
- Intros — After badging in, we’ll announce the new folk’s presence and get ’em to toss up a tidbit or 2 of introductory trivia
- Discussion— Expect some focused discussion of the more fun, recent SM posts including the 1000commentMonster (there were few commentors who had, uh, interesting opinions on the SF scene that I’m hoping to meet). It shouldn’t be anything too intense, just scan the past couple of weeks of posts and hopefully a few will pique your interest enough to be Sepia literate…
Of course, above all we’ll just try to have fun with our fellow geeks-in-arms. And don’t worry, if the structure starts getting oppressive, we’ll quickly abandon it and resume old fashioned small talk. Desi’s know small talk.
HMF, I usually make the creepy decision after someone opens his mouth [the only exception to this being if someone does something physical — e.g. groping, or if someone is visibly much older and is leering at me].
I think the most common “creepy” examples, for me at least, are men who open with the line “Hey gorgeous/beautiful…” and then move into really X-rated descriptions of what they’d like to do (physically) with me, which I find both over-forward, offensive, and tasteless. I also have the anecdote above — i.e. the guy who said his ex was named Camille, followed it up by asking me if I wanted to get married, and if not married, if I just wanted to go home with him (but phrased in a more vulgar way and said while totally totally sloshed). I was also told once — as a pick-up line — that I was drinking a “ghetto drink” and was then asked if that meant I was nasty in bed. By the way, these were all opening lines.. they weren’t follow up lines to some kind of pre-existing conversation, or something said after talking for a while. They were all comments put out there at the very beginning. And when I’ve been firm but polite about leaving a conversation or not being interested, these kinds of guys rarely take no for an answer. They’re persistent, or they’ll follow me around the bar, or they’ll be really rude to my friends (if my friends are trying to “shield” me), or they’ll tell me what a frigid, conservative, up-tight bitch I am. Just all sorts of crazy shit. Those are the experiences I’m talking about that make me less likely to want to return to a place, especially if the person who does it is a regular at said bar/club.
Oh, and expanding on Satya’s example, I also meet a lot of those “lotharios” who target very drunk women who are clearly not ok to go home with someone, insinuate themselves into her company, pick fights with her friends, and then try to take her inebriated-self home. They may be “getting some,” but to me it’s not very different from date-rape.
HMF, now I’m beginning to understand why you said people don’t like you.
When did I say this? And why the &#$@ do you care if I’m handsome or not? aren’t you getting married for chrissakes?
About the drunken Lotharios. Let’s put it this way–it’s all a matter of numbers, right? Let’s say said drunken Lothario hits on, perhaps, 90 women in one night. Because he’s a creepazoid, 90 percent of those women will reject him.
Ok, so you’re saying it’s the 10% of women that do accept him that are to blame ? Then in order for that behavior to stop, those 10% need to change their criteria. Because it doesn’t provide incentive for the ‘creepazoid’ to change, also you’re assuming that him being a non-creepazoid/lotharios would increase that 90% rejection rate, which I seriously and ridiculously question.
HMF, if women want to make a purely looks-based decision, that’s their prerogative. I’m sure that the men doing the approaching have their eye on women they think are attractive, right? So, if that’s the case, the woman who’s being approached also gets to make a congruous decision on whether he’s attractive.
Interesting to me that so many men (many of whom aren’t even attractive) think it’s their birthright to go out with hawt girls, but it’s indefensible for a woman to do the same.
They may be “getting some,” but to me it’s not very different from date-rape
If you read my earlier comment, #87, you’ll see I assumed no coercion, I’m assuming the woman is making a clear, lucid, conscious decision. However, if you call someone a lotharios, cassanova, don juan, what have you, it usually assumes they are successful, surely more than 10% of the time.
The same way if you call someone a great 3 point shot player, it assumes they can make most of their 3 point shots.
camille, thanks 🙂
i will add one non-verbal, but physical incidence of sleaziness – i was at a club in nyc, and a guy asks me to dance. he’s a good dancer, we’re having fun when all of a sudden he picks me up by my thighs, pushes me up against a wall, starts dry humping me, and then takes my hand and puts it on his penis and tells me, ‘feel how hard i am for you, baby.’ this isn’t even sleaziness – it was basically assault. the worst part was that i had to have strangers get him off of me (when my own attempts to push him off failed), while my friends did nothing because they thought that i was ‘cool’ with it. i don’t think camille, and others, are exaggerating – there is some seriously fucked-up things that you are exposed to in the ‘singles’ scene.
this is undeniable in most cases – without any previous conversation or other interaction, a naked approach of a woman will often depend upon her looks – if they’re judging a woman by this standard, they should be prepared to be so judged themselves.
Perhaps, then, it was a misuse of the term “lothario.” The impression I get is that the intent was to make it sound sinister and overly-slick, not necessarily “oozing charm” or anything to that effect.
HMF, if women want to make a purely looks-based decision, that’s their prerogative.
it most certainly is. Just stop using vague terms like ‘creepy’ to try and appear “not as superficial”
this isn’t even sleaziness – it was basically assault.
It isn’t ‘basically’ assault. it is. I don’t categorize this is lotharios behavior, this is criminal behavior.
Ugh, ak that is awful. I had something happen — minus the being lifted (but with the being pinned to the wall), and have also had someone grab me from behind, grind against me, and not let go, despite struggling to get away.
HMF, I think — based on the MANY relationship/dating convos we’ve all had on SM now — that most of the women who’ve been commenting here have been clear that they are using “creepy” in a very appropriate way. When it comes to attractiveness, I’m nice to everyone even if I’m not interested because I think it is awful to make someone who’s been brave enough to approach you feel like crap. This is certainly more than what most guys do for me (I make no claims at being hot — I am a solidly average-looking girl with a good number of above-average cutie patootie girlfriends).
HMF, yes, i should have left out the ‘basically.’ i wasn’t commenting specifically on the lothario incidents – more on examples of how rejection is justified in some cases. dance floors can be particularly terrifying places – even on a lower level – the attempts to grind/grope from behind still continue to this day – if the same guy actually asked me straight out if wanted to dance, i’d probably say yes, except that his slezy back-handed way is a total turn-off.
This math does not work for me. Maybe I don’t go to bars as much. And to Camille and Satya’s point, I think I am the kind of person who stays with the “clique”/group when I do go out. So I am going to take the onus too. Ah SM is making in introspective…
On Anna’s blog, you were dubious about my liking you; as you said, you were accustomed to catching heat on the SM blog. I must have glossed over your prior posts. But now I see what you mean. Um, and I don’t care what you look like or whether you’re a great conversationalist–I was making a joke, but that’s neither here nor there. And sorry–I didn’t realize that not being single automatically abrogated my right to offer commentary.
You seem overly fond of assigning “blame.” I think that what people do is their own business. Assholes get p***y all the time. Yeah, maybe that means the women they’re dating aren’t all that great at exercising judgment, but it’s unfair to say the onus is on them to smack the guy into shape and stop him from being an asshole to other women. After all, it seems to me that it should be the other way around: if majority opinion determines our incentives, the fact that 90% of women find him loathsome should be incentive enough to make him change.
But isn’t it common knowledge that men/women + alcohol + bar = obnoxiousness (more so from men)? Even if someone is unaware, then any woman who goes to bars will have personal incontrovertible proof of it by her 10th visit. Maybe those women are looking to hook-up with lotharios (nothing wrong with that), as long as they pass their criteria (again, nothing wrong with that- we all have standards). But to continue frequenting bars and then criticize obnoxious behavior of drunken men => Einstein quote on insanity, IMO. As far as I know, there isn’t a social movement afoot to change the way some men behave at bars.
Not to get stuck on semantics, but there are a variety of definitions and gradations of meaning when it comes to “lothario” and, of course, other words. I meant:
Lo·thar·i·o /loʊˈθɛəriËŒoÊŠ/ Pronunciation Key – Show Spelled Pronunciation[loh-thair-ee-oh] Pronunciation Key – Show IPA Pronunciation –noun, plural -thar·i·os. (sometimes lowercase) a man who obsessively seduces and deceives women
There’s also:
lothario
noun a man who behaves selfishly in his sexual relationships with women
But that’s for another blog post. 🙂
It doesn’t… but it’s still confusing as hell why you offer it.?
I assign blame when and where it’s appropriate. And no, infact you are completely wrong on this point.
Look at spam mail, most of it gets sent to spam filters or ignored and deleted instantly, but from the spammers point of view, it “works” because a small percent do follow up on :
phone deals, penis enlargement, viagra deals, etc.. etc..
So sure, maybe in some ideal utopia, the spammers should out of the generosity to not bother 90% of the population should stop, but they won’t because it’s worth it to nail that 10% that will respond positively. So the only way to really stop them is to make the people who respond, to stop doing so. Make it cost more to send the spam (or in this case, act ‘creepily’)
hellow?! intros?
Amit, there’s a difference between a guy being drunk and therefore stupid/obnoxious vs. being drunk and therefore somehow justified in being completely socially inappropriate. You’re right, it’s not fair to expect people to be 100% when they’re in a bar, but I do think it’s fair to want to go out without having someone sexually assault you or harass you all evening long.
Puli, my friends aren’t i-bankers and most are taken 🙂 The ones in NYC are mostly students right now.
i highly doubt this, camille – and even if it were so physically, your personality (the SM version of which i am sure is only a minor % of the thing as a whole) is shining. it’s hard for me to think that there’s anything average about you 🙂
That’s why I don’t go to bars and clubs anymore. 🙂 But seriously, not all men and women behave like sex-crazed nitwits. I understand that alcohol sometimes impairs people’s judgments, but we can’t use it as an excuse to cross boundaries.
And I’m fine with the Lotharios, personally, as long as they can respect personal space and take their game elsewhere when they realize homegirl ain’t interested.
HMF, are you sure this isn’t a matter of the guy being both unattractive and creepy? I haven’t experienced a lot of women using the term “creepy” unless the man makes her feel justifiably uncomfortable (and not just cuz he’s got a schnoz like Cyrano de Bergerac).
i was kidding with the i bankers spiel. that was based on someone saying “these girls like i bankers” and me thinking “hmm…maybe there is a market for me there”. then everyone going *llah hu @khbar on my @ss.
lame. pretty grls get taken fast.
nuttin arong with getting an education.
HMF, I offer my commentary because I have many male and female friends who are perfectly normal and wonderful and lovely but who have been beaten black and blue by the battering ram of “dating.” I laugh, cry, and commiserate with them over this, so the subject is–at least marginally–relevant to me.
But perhaps you’re right–if I have nothing of import to say, I should desist altogether.
I haven’t experienced a lot of women using the term “creepy” unless the man makes her feel justifiably uncomfortable
My contention is the behavior (obviously not in extreme cases like the ones mentioned above) is deemed creepy in conjunction with the looks. I believe the terms aren’t linearly separable when used in the context of dating, etc.. I know women who, upon just having certain guys look in their direction and smile will say, “he’s creepy”
Ask yourself this, but honestly. How many of these ‘creepy’ guys were good looking?
This point really can’t be debated in general. If you want to see how much more racist, heightest, fattist, educationist and classist women are than men compare personal ad requirements. But how bad is it really for any commentator here? All the guys are obviously smart and witty. Being 6’2″ will get you in the door, but being witty will get you through the doggy door. 😉
You’re talking criminal activity here (sexual assault) which is different from drunken obnoxiousness.
Thinking of putting in an appearance, but all this bad press about software-wallahs is giving me pause for thought. 8-)-o<>
But perhaps you’re right–if I have nothing of import to say, I should desist altogether.
I never said that, neither did I make any claim on it’s import. I just said it’s a bit confusing for someone who’s theoretically should be ‘removed’ from all the analysis of male/female dating intricacies to offer commentary in the present tense, it just gives off the vibe that you have a personal vested interest somehow. Just a bit confusing thats all.
Is that what the i-bankers are calling it these days? 😉
whatever dude. i dig smart grls.
but it’s unfair to say the onus is on them to smack the guy into shape and stop him from being an asshole to other women.
I missed this earlier, and this is absolutely not what Im saying. I’m saying the onus is on these 10% to stop being the 10%, then the guy will find his behavior doesn’t yield positive results (even if only 10%) and change it himself (because it will no longer work)
Oh man witty trumps 6’2 ALWAYS! I know a 5’5 boy who is soo witty/funny, that I would take him over any 6’0 any day (too bad he is already taken)
perhaps i should be converting myself into the 10%. playing a numbers game isnt an altogether bad strategy as such.
maybe for you. but most grls wont even look at a guy no matter what his qualities are if hes not tall. height is an initial filter.
HMF–again, see the vicarious drama thing above. 🙂 Also, I’m a matchmaker of sorts, so yes, I do have a vested interest.
That’s so funny, because a lot of times, I know I and other women have often lamented the times good-looking men ruin the illusion by opening their mouths. Another aside–the most gorgeous man I’ve ever met in my life did absolutely NOTHING for me because he was a dick who thought that given his flawless visage, courtesy was unnecessary.
life is much easier on line….
Also, I’m a matchmaker of sorts, so yes, I do have a vested interest
I meant personal vested interest. like for example this comment
“That’s why I don’t go to bars and clubs anymore. 🙂 “
Why would you, irrespective if the bars and clubs had the sleaziest of the sleze or the harvard seminary? Which actually brings up sort of another point. why do married or dating women still wear all the makeup and designer clothes and go out?
That’s so funny, because a lot of times, I know I and other women have often lamented the times good-looking men ruin the illusion by opening their mouths
well, all I can say is, every time I’ve seen a woman identify someone else as creepy, he’s never been good looking. Also, keep in mind, I’m talking about the localized time and space of a single encounter. Not a case where a woman dates a good looking guy then after 5 months decides he’s a dick and this and that and everything else.
that is how you can tell if your really desi. you make the bar scene sound like the space time continueum
that is how you can tell if your really desi. you make the bar scene sound like the space time continueum
delta_x * delta_t <= 300 ft-mins
I meant
delta_x * delta_t should be less than 300 ft-mins
HMF,
that is so obnoxious..once again, I am married NOT DEAD
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That’s absolutely ridiculous. Just because I’m “off the market,” doesn’t mean that I’m gonna NOT make an effort to be attractive when I go out. This also presupposes that the entire purpose of getting dressed up is to snag a man–you forget that a lot of women dress for other women. Fancy plumage is no longer confined to the mating call.
Um, and I usually used to bars and clubs with my fiance, because we like to drink, we like to dance, and the pulsating mass of sweaty bodies was occasionally fodder for our erotic life. Of course, that got old as I got older, and having to deal with the rather persistent men who approached me when my fiance was in the boys’ room became reason enough to rethink my recreational activities.
I hear you on this. But I’m talking about the localized time and space of a single encounter as well. There are actually a lot of good-looking guys who think they can get away with saying some very inappropriate things without nary an introduction to break the ice.
they probably think this because they get away with it…a lot. because they are attractive.
That is, I used to frequent bars and clubs with my fiance.
Sorry, I’m having trouble commenting, so I just wanted to do a “test post” to see what’s wrong…
i never liked the bar scene. a lot of sleazy guys and grls throwing themselves at them. disturbing at best.
Satya and HMF are going to challenge each other to a duel.. thats whats up! 😉
LAME. Ok, repost:
Perhaps I should restate using more clear terms: when you get sleazy guys sexually harassing/assaulting you all the time, it makes it less fun to go out, particularly to bars…
thanks, ak 🙂 I appreciate the compliment! Just to clarify, I wasn’t saying this to be self-effacing or to fish; I was just trying to be honest about my own self-perception lest anyone think I’m arguing that I’m so hot that I can’t help but be sexually assaulted by guys 😉
Puli, I wasn’t trying to be discouraging… Just saying my friends are not all La Perla clad, and I think only one qualifies as a skinny minnie (she’s a marathoner). That said, they are all awesome, beautiful, brilliant, down-to-earth, and talented women.
HMF, I would say 30-50% of “creepy” guys are physically attractive on first sight (whatever that means). Good looking guys tend to have a twin-problem to creepiness, which I like to term “chronic flaming asshole syndrome.”
Just because I’m “off the market,” doesn’t mean that I’m gonna NOT make an effort to be attractive when I go out. This also presupposes that the entire purpose of getting dressed up is to snag a man–you forget that a lot of women dress for other women
But didn’t you just use the word ‘attractive’? Isn’t the purpose of being attractive is to ….attract? and isn’t the ‘make other women jealous’ factor just secondary (and not a healthy justification anyway, if you ask me)
Um, and I usually used to bars and clubs with my fiance, because we like to drink
That’s fine. Then the dressing up is for him.
Of course, that got old as I got older, and having to deal with the rather persistent men who approached me when my fiance was in the boys’ room became reason enough to rethink my recreational activities.
Well, either your fiance takes some serious dumps that take up a lot of time, or you’re just a serious hottie that screams ‘come talk to me’ in her mannerism/body language in the alone time window when your fiance leaves your side.
Also, don’t people with fiances wear rings? Id think most guys over the age of 25 are accustomed to checking.