It’s been an adjustment, to experience this website’s growth and witness our readership change. People leave, others join, many lurk. While I miss some of our now-absent personalities who were prolific with their pondering (Punjabi Boy, Jai Singh, DesiDancer and Espressa come to mind), I’m thrilled about our new commenters, who are expanding our discussion and bringing their unique points of view to our cacophonous, rowdy, online adda. I’m especially looking at our first-gen contributors, like Runa and Malathi, because for stories like the one I’m trying to blog, I think their perspective is invaluable, for helping us find nuance and context. What I’m trying to say is, HELP.
Al Mujahid for Debauchery left this on our news tab:
Unbelievable. Pakistani actor Moin Akhtar (a muhajir/Indian origin himself) plays Hyderabadis from India in blackface in this ‘comedy’ show.
Wait, WHAT? And here is where the DBDs come in, because I don’t understand the clip below or know who these actors are, and as I’ve stated before, I like to get as much information as possible before I get my outrage on– and believe me, I could rage about actors in blackface.
What on earth is going on? And would someone who watches desi tv please tell me that this an uncommon practice? I fast forwarded through the clip, but I don’t get the greasy, huge-black-glasses-equipped, buck-toothed character, and by “don’t get”, I mean my spider sense is tingling. What, if anything, do all of you know?
This is true. I’d like to add that this was written into Article 343 of the Indian constitution, which I paste below.
I dont think he said “hindu” or “authentic”. i think he said brahmin. and…in the odd case of caste, he has a point. not that its very nice or PC or sane, but thats just how it works (mostly).
English is the language associated with science/modern development whereas Hindi is not and people have been used to English. Whether you agree or not Hindi is as foreign a language as English is to many people. Why swallow the pain of learning two foreign languages if you can get by with one..
I support people learning “Swahili” if it helps in improving their lives. Otherwise I’d let them choose whatever they want.
puli hammers away at work while cursing softly backwards to himself in esperanto…
does anyone think learning chineese will ever become nessicary to be a businessman in india?
Orissa
Northeastern? No. It’s South Eastern
Nien Numb, who copiloted the Millenium Falcon along with Lando Calrissian, during the Battle of Endor, spoke a little bit of Swahili.
I should also clarify that there is still a lot of soreness in some areas re: how “language states” were defined post-Partition. You’ll still meet (Partition-era) Indo-Punjabis who are angry that Haryana is a different state. I think, in general, we are speaking from a certain level of privilege because we didn’t really have to grow up with many of the most severe growing pains that India went through in forming a unified country.
That said, while I understand the anti-colonial sentiment around English, I generally prefer it. I know this also has a regional bias, though, since occupation and use of English was more wide-spread (as I understand it) in the North.
Why Swahili in quotes? Isn’t it a language? 😉
my mother and i had this exact conversation last night. she was commenting on some young tamil actress’ statement that she comes from a traditional family, which was juxtaposed with a picture of the actress wearing some decisively non-traditional attire. and my mother thought it was a a very hypocritical statement to make, since she essentially felt that if her family is traditional, she, too, should be (oh, yes, PindaUSA – it is not just the TBs who have a license over sneering :)). but there’s this concept of, for lack of a better word, pigeon-holing people in india – as if it’s so shocking that e.g. i could simultaneously love carnatic music, NFAK and atif aslam. but i find it odd, as i’ve said before, that this applies only when comparing the desi aspects – carnatic music seems to be OK when alongside e.g. george michael. i guess it’s just this idea that some people think it’s impossible to be a multi-faceted indian/desi.
knee-jerking was in her own words. but besides her, the knee-jerk reaction for many has nothing to do with the time or necessity of learning the language – rather it is a reaction that has political/historical sentiments, as in bdesh, and as in TN.
ponniyin selvan @ 303, i understand that sentiment – and of course indians living in different states have a hierarchy of the languages that are necessary to their operation as a pragmatic issue. what i was commenting is the idea that this anti-hindi response rejects, in some small way, a sense of a unified india. i am completely against a compulsory hindi requirement, but i question the rational reasons for its rejection – i.e. lack of openness to learning it at all. when i took up hindi, it was not received well by many. it was seen as a sort of rejection of tamil.
Sober. For now.
— Not Hemingway.
wow…..your as geeky as i am….
Not the school I went to. We had Hindi, English and Sanskrit. It’s interesting that other than Mathematics, Sanskrit was the only other subject where one could score 100% in tests.
Amitabh, glad that you talked about your experience. I’ll take honesty (expressed in a civil manner of course) over PC-ness any day if we are to make any progress.
Camille, my parents speak excellent Punjabi but my fluency is nowhere near their level. I wish my parents had also taught me Punjabi when growing up, but their focus was on me learning English (and Hindi). It’s a shame that such beautiful languages are being sidelined. A friend of mine from Karnataka (living in the US) doesn’t teach his kids (they’re still young) Kannada because he doesn’t think it’s necessary, which I think is a shame.
Oh I don’t doubt that knee-jerk response exists, just that some who refuse to learn Hindi do it for practical reasons and not some kind of stubborn, self-defeating, political statement.
i can understand the kannada/tamil mix my family speaks at home, but i sound like george W bush speaking spanish when i speak it. i need to work on that…
If a South Indian learns English, they can communicate in most Indian states and overseas. If a South Indian learns Hindi, they are limited to North India. Bombay, and parts of South India. Is Bombay considered a Marathi or a Hindi city or is it very bilingual? Imagine if my dad learned Hindi instead of English in school. He came here in the 60s. He was able to assimilate very fast.
There is no reason to force a South Indian to learn Hindi. Just as India took in Mughal influences, I see nothing wrong in Indians claiming English as one of its own languages.
Well then keep that insanity off this site. It’s one thing to joke about being a Tamil Brahmin, another to be a dick about it. There are people on this site who don’t appreciate when others are vicious about ISKCON, and that movement freely uses the word converts. SM is not the place for debating which kind of Hinduism is superior and frankly, anyone who wants to pretend that being a Brahmin makes them superior to others is not welcome on this site.
Females are more likely to be aborted in India. That’s not very nice or PC or sane, but that’s just how it works (mostly). Everyone makes choices. We can choose to reject disgusting attitudes which would (and have, already on this thread) be hurtful to those lowly half-whites.
i dont know why its nessicary to force other people to do anything other than “dont kill” and simple stuff like that”
I can understand the anti-colonial sentiment of the North Indian leaders and their bias and disgust against English as a “colonial tool of oppression” is valid. But think about it, you are against the language of imperialists, but then try to enforce an equally alien and imperial language Hindi on southerners just because the southerners don’t have the numbers. Don’t you become the neo-language imperialists?. Fortunately, the leaders were sane and realised this is not going to work and rescinded the decision.
I’m no fan of English either and I think English is a far bigger threat to Indian languages (atleast to Tamil) than Hindi. You can’t find a student in urban Tamilnadu who speaks a sentence in Tamil without mixing an English word in it. But I can’t force the students not to learn English while I learnt it and making good use of it to get employed / travel abroad / have a nice life etc.. It is the fact of life that English knowledge is required for advancement in life (at least now and in the immediate future) . There are some political leaders who have realised that and are making the right noises now..
ponniyin selvan @ 303, i understand that sentiment – and of course indians living in different states have a hierarchy of the languages that are necessary to their operation as a pragmatic issue. what i was commenting is the idea that this anti-hindi response rejects, in some small way, a sense of a unified india. i am completely against a compulsory hindi requirement, but i question the rational reasons for its rejection – i.e. lack of openness to learning it at all. when i took up hindi, it was not received well by many. it was seen as a sort of rejection of tamil.
i didnt even read that as a claim of superiority….it is just a statement of fact. caste is not a club (again..mosly) that you can sign up for or something…
does it really matter what langugage people are speaking? i mean. if everyone was suddently speaking binary, whats wrong with that..
Camille@308 Huh? English occupation and use of English language. was also widespread in the South, pre-partition. See Ramachandra Guha’s essay titled “The Better Half” posted upthread.
Is it me, or are we making a big fuss about learning languages? I met a octogenarian who could read and write 7 languages. Both of my grandmothers read and wrote 5 languages. My mom and mother-in-law can read and write 4 languages. I consider it a badge of honor that I can converse in 3 or 4 languages, but sadly I only read roman script well, and devnagari poorly.
I think I posted too soon..
Depending upon whether you chose Hindi over Tamil or not. If it is atleast technically it is called a rejection.
I think you are bought into the idea that for a unified India everyone needs to know Hindi. I have no such qualms.
What is this? Monty Python?
Man giving presentation: “001011011001001. 001?”.
Audience member: “001110010?”
Speech-giver: “1!”
Was it? Or is it like when commenters casually drop in that they, personally are fair, but they think it’s terrible what those darkies suffer?
Then people should stop treating it like one.
Keep in mind that we moderate after a comprehensive view of a person’s activity on this site. When someone goes out of their way to submit anti-Muslim and anti-Christian propaganda, which isn’t even news, on the news tab, it raises a flag. When they sneer at “half-white” mongrels, it raises another. Whatever all that is about, it is not welcome here.
Same, although to their credit they did try to teach me Punjabi (script) when I was little. I wish I could speak Punjabi with half the grace that they can — I hate my stupid bad accent and 5-year-old vocabulary.
You’re preaching to the choir, my friend. 🙂 With respect to whether English is “polluting” indigenous languages, I’m a little more indifferent; this is kind of a “normal” progression anytime you get languages overlapping, and we certainly see the introduction of desi words into the English lexicon, also. While I hear a lot more “Pungrazi” each time I go visit my cousins, at the same time a lot of the terms they’re using are globalized as well — e.g. “Internet chedi, yaar.” The phrases I think are funnier are things like “Water piyo, ji!”
Are you throwing a starwars gauntlet down?
thats a good point. i was just looking at that statement in isolation.
that was half my sentence taken out of context….
that is not simply a statement of fact in the same way the prior statement was.
but…hey..its not my site…
nah. my geekyness runs more along the star trek vein…
lifelong, I’m just repeating the biggest complaint I heard from my South Indian friends when I asked why, if one ignores the colonial element, English was an unacceptable compromise.
Also, I don’t understand the argument that a rejection of Hindi is a rejection of a unified India. Sorry, I just now read that section. I’m prone to delayed reaction time.
Hey kids, let’s not get into a 1011 battle, or argue over whose Wookie did what, yeah? 🙂
does it really matter what langugage people are speaking? i mean. if everyone was suddently speaking binary, whats wrong with that..
I do think something gets lost when (in this case) English is replacing say Malayalam. In Kerala, unlike TN, Malayalam is not being pursued by young students. Everyone wants English, English, English. Lots of times I’ve heard my father and other influential Malayalees speak about the loss of Malayalam, that Malayalees, unlike the Tamils, are not pursuing their language. Most students, in Kerala today, after they take the basic Malayalam, will take higher studies in English medium. I’ve heard a lot of my parents’ generation say, that Malayalam is such a difficult language that it’s just easier for the students to pursue English and then English is of course global so it helps them too.
There’s so many things that can be said in Malayalam and I just can’t express in English.
But the change doesn’t have to be bad…we gain a lot, I suppose with English. Culture changes and this time, the change is not happening by force or violence, unless some people think globalization is a type of violence. I remember an essay Amartya Sen wrote about not being afraid of cultural change – no need to “preserve” it. I’m starting to think the Malayalam will go the way of Sanskrit in 100 years, and will be replaced by English as Kerala’s language. If you speak English in Kerala, I’d say you can get along fine.
note to self….be cooler.
no, i don’t believe that. but i find it puzzling that people outright reject hindi, and not for any linguistic reasons, either. i think a unified india means that people feel they have something in common with fellow citizens, and are able to get over linguistic differences to feel that. instead, there is sometimes a feeling that regional cultures are so separate as to have nothing in common except for their central government. that said, i think language is a big deal in the south for political reasons – i’m not sure it was so rigid earlier – like your grandmother, mine also could read and write in several languages.
If you guys are going to have a fight about whether the Borg can defeat Darth Vader, I’m out of here.
resistance is futile….oops. i couldnt resist.
Honestly nothing really matters. I think the philosophical view is “Everyone is going to die someday”. 🙂
In the meantime, some people find that their language is worth fighting for, some people find that their religion/god is worth fighting for.. It is tough to explain why somethings matter to someone and somethings don’t matter to someone else..
why does the thing that has to be in common “culture”. what precisely do you mean by culture anyways. i mean, cant poeple not speak the same langaugage in 2 different parts of a country and still have a bunch of other stuff in common?
That feels like a Bohemian Rhapsody!
Puliogre, it is your site and that is why we moderate the way we do. It’s everyone’s site, provided that everyone isn’t an ass.
The same instincts which caused us to delete a horrid attempt to “out” someone by revealing personal information about them, kick in here. If people don’t feel welcome or safe, they won’t come. It’s that simple. And when a half-white commenter responds with an “ouch”, it’s time to step in. I am not trying to have a fight with you or take your words out of context, nor am I accusing you of anything. I’m just trying to make sure that this conversation can continue, the way it should– in a civil fashion.
fair enough…
preaching to the choir, Pinda. i don’t feel culture is either a bonding or an alienating factor. but even you cannot deny that a lot of desis tend to stick to people who have similar cultural backgrounds as they do, whether they define that culture by geography, language religion, or otherwise.
i dont deny that. but…having people of the same group stick together doesnt mean that the country is just being held together just because there is a common government.
“If you guys are going to have a fight about whether the Borg can defeat Darth Vader, I’m out of here.”
See this I never got, It’s almost as silly as the Tamil v. Hindi debate.
“nah. my geekyness runs more along the star trek vein…”
Thats what I thought.
although i do know a $hitl0ad about starwars. im not very confrontational though…
I don’t think we should torture millions of students the burden of an extra language just so that some people feel that they have something in common with some other people. It is a waste of time / resources and money.
Actually regional cultures are separate and you can find a lot of overlaps between neighbouring cultures as you would expect but as the distance grows differences grow too. We need to live with differences and not try to forge an artificial unity forcefully..
My grandmother knew just one language and I think you got confused with another commented.
i think the discrimination runs both ways. for example, for all of the messed up stuff ive heard about south indians out of the mouhts of north indians, ive heard enough south indians say things like “dont marry a punjabi. punjabis drink, are agressive and will run you over” i just stand there kinda slack jawed at that point.
i was talking about the subjective viewpoint, rather than the objective one
I fail to understand why some people feel that learning Hindi is sort of belittling their state language. I mean as a DBD growing up in small town Orissa, I learnt three languages upto class 10 (Oriya, English and Hindi). A lot of my friends from different states are trilingual. So the thing that people down south feel that I learn English instead of Hindi. Why not both?
PS: If you’re ABD of course you are American and expected to learn only English.
reminds me of people on teh evening news complaining that their kids will HAVE to learn english and spanish, like thats a bad thing.
To Melbourne desi in #240,
I definitely have an accent, I am just not sure if it is the accent that is expected out of me when one hears that I spent the first 19 years of my life in Madras. That was the point I was making in comment # 116. I also spent 6 years in Russia/Ukraine speaking mainly Russian with a bunch of Spanish-speaking Latin American roommates and some Ukrainian with babushkas on the farms before I headed to North America. It is anyone’s guess now what my current accent exactly is, altho’ my husband doesn’t hesitate to smile and let me know promptly when I pronounce something in a very ‘Indian’ way.
Maybe I did a poor job of conveying my intended point. Which was, that irrespective of how I actually sound, I apparently fulfilled the role of providing laughter relief for two people who had typical, identifiable, regional accents of their own while living outside India (not that there is anything wrong with accents, but with laughing at another accent, now that’s another matter).
if state A says state B needs to learn my langaguage causse its the indian language, then doesnt learn state B’s language. it kind of does belittle state B’s language. like state A’s language is “th language” and state b can go f-ck itself.