It’s been an adjustment, to experience this website’s growth and witness our readership change. People leave, others join, many lurk. While I miss some of our now-absent personalities who were prolific with their pondering (Punjabi Boy, Jai Singh, DesiDancer and Espressa come to mind), I’m thrilled about our new commenters, who are expanding our discussion and bringing their unique points of view to our cacophonous, rowdy, online adda. I’m especially looking at our first-gen contributors, like Runa and Malathi, because for stories like the one I’m trying to blog, I think their perspective is invaluable, for helping us find nuance and context. What I’m trying to say is, HELP.
Al Mujahid for Debauchery left this on our news tab:
Unbelievable. Pakistani actor Moin Akhtar (a muhajir/Indian origin himself) plays Hyderabadis from India in blackface in this ‘comedy’ show.
Wait, WHAT? And here is where the DBDs come in, because I don’t understand the clip below or know who these actors are, and as I’ve stated before, I like to get as much information as possible before I get my outrage on– and believe me, I could rage about actors in blackface.
What on earth is going on? And would someone who watches desi tv please tell me that this an uncommon practice? I fast forwarded through the clip, but I don’t get the greasy, huge-black-glasses-equipped, buck-toothed character, and by “don’t get”, I mean my spider sense is tingling. What, if anything, do all of you know?
Not if you take the oomph factor into account. 😉
Pravin: pssh. Schools in Andhra don’t even teach Telugu and Hindi anymore. English all the way.
I met a legendary Telugu ‘megastar’ recently, and his kids call him ‘Dad.’
Haha @ Pravin’s list
About the South seceding, I think all of India would break up if that were to happen. The Khalistanis in the supposedly Punjab-dominated North would want their own piece, Manipur and other random Northeastern states would demand their own…
There wouldn’t be much of India left except for perhaps the UP/MP/HP? states.
As you rightly claimed these attributes are probably limited to the specific groups. Non vegetarian food is the most attractive feature for relatives/friends in “low caste functions”. We traditionally have a big feast for functions like “ear-piercing/shaving the head” for the first time for babies. That includes a lot of non-veg food. The number of goats that are sacrificeed (to the god and eaten by us.. 🙂 ) increases in proportion to the wealth of the organiser.. And there is “free alcohol” for the menfolk..
This is not to say “upper caste” folks don’t have fun. I’ve observed that the many rituals they employ in weddings are “for fun” when it is usually the kids who got married at the ages of 3-10. There are typically certain rituals like the bride and the groom getting on the shoulders of their uncles, and other similar rituals.
About the whole south seceding thing… southern states themselves cannot stay together (check out information about Telangana district in AP), I doubt the different southern states would be able to stay together.
And I don’t know what amitabh is talking about with regards to inhospitable southies. “A look of relief that you’re not staying for dinner?” Maybe that’s… personal? 😛
Maybe it has to do with being an ‘outsider’ to the community, or it simply seems that way to anyone unfamiliar with a particular community. I don’t think my family functions are that boring though… then again we are low-caste. Hmph.
For what it’s worth, I’ve found many of the older north Indians (Gujratis in particular) I’ve interacted with to be brash and rude. But I chalk part of it up to cross-cultural differences.
This is something I was actually curious of, in the states, while many hollywood movies take huge liberties with reality, and extend into fantasy, the racial depictions of various groups are generally taken at face value. Even in a movie like Transformers, the Bernie Mac character is somewhat typical of how a black man is “thought” to act. But as my understanding goes, Bollywood is a understood as a complete departure from reality, on all counts, in particular social. (No one expects their kids to court each other by running and dancing in fields) So I wonder, are these ethnic/regional depictions taken with the same level of “escapism from reality” as the other components?
I feel like I must have grown up under a rock since my experiences are so different 🙂 BTW, thanks, Pravin.
milli, I totally agree, and this is what I was trying to get at in my previous comment. Growing up in the southwest, there weren’t enough desi families from the same region, let alone same religion, to get all divisive. My family only became more (Indo-Punjabi)-centric when we moved to an area infested with desis.
Amen, ak! I would trade Punju food for Southie food anyday (although I also like vindaloo, but since it’s not a Punjabi dish could I keep it?) Also, would Goa count as a southern or northern “state”? I ask because I loooove fish curry 🙂 I’m mostly teasing — give me idli/sambar any day!
This is really sad, and in my opinion this is the crux of a lot of the angst ABDs feel. For me this experience came in college, where I was both overwhelmed by actually attending classes with a bunch of ABDs, but also because people would just say stupid things. They had no concept of India’s history or regionalism, or its diversity, frankly, and they thought everything they knew came from TV. I don’t speak Hindi, either — the only reason I can pick it up is because it’s what my Dilli relatives speak, and a lot of the words approximate Doaba Punjabi. So, despite the “cultural hegemony” of Punjabis, you can still get shat on if you don’t know all the recent Bollywood films, don’t join the equivalent of SASA (and dance in the culture show), and don’t speak Hindi. This is probably going to sound ridiculous, but I just didn’t spend time with people I thought were stupid, and along the way I made awesome (ABD/DBD) friends (of all regional and religious backgrounds) because, lo and behold, most of them weren’t going to hang out with a bunch of juvenile neophytes either. I guess my point is that the politics of authenticity somehow hinge on 1-2 really ridiculous factors that don’t accommodate for the diversity of both the subcontinent and of ABDs.
Oh, but murali, he’s so cute!
melbourne desi, biharis and UP, as spark mentioned, are shat on as well, if it’s any consolation. I was going to say, though, if we followed this line of logic India would be what it was before it was India — i.e. a group of self-governed kingdoms and principalities. Managing diversity is one of the by-products of creating a unified independent state post-colonization.
Hmm… I haven’t heard of this, but many teach Sanskrit and Urdu, at least in the NW.
[I ran out of space above] Despite the grief that Indo-Punjabis have clearly caused a lot of folks, I just wanted to reemphasize that some of these experiences happen regardless of where you come from. I do think there are some larger factors at play, e.g. ideas of beauty (although, to be honest, I loooove those beautiful southie faces, cute noses, and gorgeous curly hair — the Punjabi shnoz is nothing to be envied!). And, I’m curious — is there a lot of discrimination in the south re: the North, aside from just stereotyping? I ask because I see these regional disparities come up way more often with regards to dating (although there does seem to be a TamBram chokehold on dating “within caste” and “within region”).
Hmmm–coupla problems here–
1) northern India does not = Punjabi–
Only if South India =Madraasi. I suppose a slightly more effective taunt would be “Bihari.”
2) sushi does not = white–been to Gari recently–bring the freakin’ cash!
Now a widespread suburban phenomenon, I would argue that Sushi acquired its international status because whitey took to it. Examine the history of your tastes. So much of what you think ‘cosmpolitan’ garnered its staus cos whitey took to it first. VS Naipaul dubbed the brown folks who tried to latch own to white cosmpolitanism –and came out looking foolish — “mimic men.”
It would be comical to watch the untrained Indians engage in the pompous rituals surrounding the consumption of wine. Swilling, sniffing, pretentiously claiming you can taste some “essence,” etc.
South is again not a monolithic entity. You have four different states and four major languages. As one commenter pointed out previously, there is some friction between Tamils/Telugus/Kannadigas/Malayalis as it is bound to be.. And even within Tamils you have people from different regions feeling discriminated against. And Telugus in Telangana definitely feel so and are agitating for a separate state.
I guess there is a high probability of discriminatory feelings against North Indians in the South. I can narrate a personal anecdote. My uncle had a Rajasthani family living as neighbors.. There are rich “settu” and “poor settu” (who are brought in from Rajasthan to work for rich settus). This fellow is a worker. He complained against my uncle throwing garbage in front of his house. There used to be a garbage bin in front of his house and he removed the bin after complaining to the municipality. But due to the habits my uncle was still throwing garbage at the same place.. Once there was a verbal fight and my uncle got angry and shouted at the neighbor claiming his rights as a “local” who has lived in the place for generations and he can’t accept a newcomer dictating the rules.. The “settu” became silent and left. He made no complaints later. I don’t think that guy would have nice feelings about the hospitality of southerners.
There are many stereotypes between Southerners. Malyalis, e.g., are stereotyped as “untrustworthy” by Tamils. Tamils as “easily excitable” by everyone else. The idea that these groups could form a “nation” is laughable. Here in the west, regional affinities (or in the case of some sentimental Brahmins here, sub-caste affinities) are bound to fade because of the high prevalence of inter-regional and inter-caste marriages. You can dress up your half-white son like a Brahmin, make him wear the sacred thread, teach him shlokas and shastras, but a Brahmin he will not be.
So let me recount my experiences about this growing up. My parents (esp. my dad) always felt that north Indians (Biharis, people from U.P….strangely he excepted “aristocratic” muslims of U.P. from this, M.P., punjabi hindus, but not sikhs..since I suspect his two best friends were sikh) had no kaalchaar (now you know what state they came from). Really admired South Indian culture (esp. tamilians and keralaites). Some of my relatives went further; I recall an incident where the mother is heard saying (about her son, of course), that “bapi is very smart, he has only south indian friends”.
Ouch.
I’m not sure what you mean ?
manju, i figured as much – too many nights in a row of south indian food occasionally made me beg for a takeout break. though i don’t know why my brother hated south indian food – we ate plenty of other food in our house, ate meat, and drank alcohol. at least you learned to appreciate it – the closest my brother comes to eating south indian food is dosa – with yogurt.
camille – you can have your goan food, too – they use so much coconut anyway 🙂 one of the best meals i’ve ever had was in bombay, coorgi-style.
i never understood the ‘bring friends because we’re brown’ where the culture wasn’t even understood enough to be an actual bond. i guess this happens on all campuses. most of my desi friends from college were also a scattered lot, which was rather nice.
i think there’s distrust – because of the discrimination they might have faced by people from the north. there’s definitely a wariness in my parents, but they also do it based on region – e.g. my parents think very highly of gujaratis, whereas certain north indians (incl. punjabis) who have repeatedly alienated them, my parents’ concern is that they not be the alienating sort. basically, if nobody is trying to force their culture/language or assert its superiority, my parents are cool. from a marrying standpoint, i think i’ve stated their preferences before : 1. tamil 2. south indian 3. hindu 4. anything except for the ‘forbidden’ groups – blacks, muslims, latinos etc – basically no non-desi non-whites and absolutely no muslims…
MM, he’s rather greasy to me. and i have to add, only the lemurian ideal to a certain segment, or rather, he’s not a lemurian male ideal at all (too slim, no moustache/sufficient body hair), but just a male ideal to some. if you’re looking for a lemurian ideal and you bear any resemblance to the heroes of tamil cinema, you might be safe. though i would choose your audience wisely – the ABD/modern TN lot might have more sendhil-like preferences 🙁
Really admired South Indian culture (esp. tamilians and keralaites). Some of my relatives went further; I recall an incident where the mother is heard saying (about her son, of course), that “bapi is very smart, he has only south indian friends”.
This is my experience with north indians — but DBDs – I always hear how great Kerala is, how smart we are – which is nice, but of course just a stereotype and misleading, and I’m afraid I have to disappoint people.
sometimes I FEEL (don’t know how accurate this feeling I have actually is) I have to be careful to not offend my ABD friends who are north indian, when we talk about certain social conditions or education b/c the stats for most social conditions in Kerala is so much better.
Sometimes I feel some of my indian friends, whether DBD or ABD, feel they have to make me feel less dark. For ex, we were talking about dying our hair and I said to my very light skinned friend, “well I think a reddish tinge looks great on indians with lighter skin, but I don’t like that hair color for dark-skinned indians”; It’s funny, b/c whether its a south indian or north indian, I usually get something like, “you are so pretty and your not that dark”, and I FEEL that it is said in a way that seems to make apologies for my darkness. I just find this funny but where I of course find it troubling, is that for many indians the idea that to be dark and beautiful, well it’s still not embraced in India or among ABDs, even though most Indians are brown. Anyways I think slowly we are embracing this side of our beauty.
Another thing, all this talk about north indian beauty…don’t agree with this at all. Light-skin is preferred but for women, light-skin with what I would call typical South indian features. For example remember Nargis… http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nargis – I don’t think her type of look which could be in my mind stereotypically “north indian” is considered beautiful anymore and Ash’s look is definitely in. But then of course there are so many south indians that look like Nargis and so many north indians that look like Ash, but I’m just talking about stereotypes and generalizations.
ak: you have very madrasi tastes!
ACfD – he he. indeed, i do. but how do you mean it?
Razib and ANNA, thank you.
Touche…lol.
Aren’t tamilians known for this to a certain degree [not saying anything ’bout your folks], or is it just true in religious circles/temple environments?
Not to be cheeky, but the same can be argued of the North 🙂
ak, agreed. Not sure why “brownness” should/would create some kind of friend-level affinity. That said, college was also the first time I met and hung out with a large number of Pakistani (Muslim) Punjabis. The experience was totally awesome, actually. 🙂
I had a really funny interaction with a floormate’s mom my frosh year that, to this day, both she and I remember. I basically lived in a corner of the floor, and there were two rooms next door, each occupied by at least one desi guy. One guy’s mom came up to me on move-in day and asked, “Are you Indian? Are your parents going to the Indian-parent orientation?” (yes, Indus really hosts a SAsian parent orientation!!) I was totally flustered and said something to the effect of no, but thank you for the info. To which she replied, “Well, you look like a nice Indian girl, make sure you look out for my beta, ok?” W.T.F!? Why should I care about your creepy son!? [aside: the three of us are actually still friends, but there was an awkward period where I was trying to figure out whose mom she had been]
I wonder if these prejudices vary by socioeconomic or religious community. Not to stir trouble up; I’m just curious.
ACfD – he he. indeed, i do. but how do you mean it?
I am just messing with you 🙂
Yes, I don’t think I denied that ever.. what’s the need to be cheeky??. 🙂
not sure south indians are any more open minded. i think tam brahms have sneering down to an art form.
PS@267 Many “Telugu” actresses are in fact Punjabi these days. Some examples are Bhumika Chawla, Simmi. When they have a “launch” press conference, some of them cannot even speak Hindi, leave alone Telugu. Komalini Mukherjee is another example of a non telugu Telugu actress. I’m presuming that this phenomenon is because of a preference for fair skin and “northern features”.
what can i say ACfD – my mom is the president of the tamil sangam – i have come to spread the word on SM! by the time i’m done at SM, you all will bow to the beauty of the kanjeevaram, praise the superiority(?) of saravana bhavan, and insist that madras kaapi is the only way to go! (on a side note, we’re actually telugu)
but, seriously, like HMF was saying, TN is particularly anti-hindi (maybe more so than the other three states) and this has much to do with its political history/parties. we have political parties whose core platform is secession – can anybody tell me whether the other southern states have this? but these days, tamilians are not as anti-hindi – many kids in school take it as their second language (in the posher schools, many choose hindi over tamil) because they realise its potential to widen their career options across india. my dad can follow hindi somewhat, and my mom, who was born after the compulsory hindi curriculum was removed in TN, started taking hindi lessons a few years back.
PonSel@261
What does “settu” mean? Seth?
yes
lifelong:
To tell you the truth.. I don’t know. Like the North Indians use “madrasi” as a generic term for all the south indians, “settu” is used by Tamils to denote all North Indians.
I really do not know the etymology of the term, could be from “Seth”.. associated with money lenders..
Ouch indeed. Whatever group you want to be affiliated to, is completely chosen by you. Your birth is only a small part of the story. If you want to identify with some group other than what your birth dictates, more power to you. For crying out loud, someone could be a DBD who chooses to be a US citizen. What are you going to tell them? “You can dress up in jeans and t-shirts and vote in Presidential elections but an American you will not be”?
PS@267 Many “Telugu” actresses are in fact Punjabi these days. Some examples are Bhumika Chawla, Simmi. When they have a “launch” press conference, some of them cannot even speak Hindi, leave alone Telugu. Komalini Mukherjee is another example of a non telugu Telugu actress. I’m presuming that this phenomenon is because of a preference for fair skin and “northern features”.
Maybe, or maybe these punjabis have the light skin that’s prized by all indians and can “pass” as south indian, with south indian features…who knows? I don’t know what these actresses look like.
why the heck do people get so worked up about language? i mean…its a tool for effective communication. if i could speak hindi, french, italian, chineese etc…i would be all over that..
i think the primary difference is that you can become american. a caste is (mostly) a club you’ve got to be born into. i dont think you can say “yay..im a XYZ (insert caste here)” and automatically become that person. there are some nonsense rules involved.
PindaUSA:
Huh, a sneerable dilettante! A true connoisseur would know that sneering is an exact science, not an art.
thats tru…tam brahms arent allowed to be art majors. only science. my bad..
Do you mean like the DMK?
I dunno, doesn’t English cover the “practical language for going to all cities within India” gamut? I remember I was looking at study abroad programs in India, and I spoke to the director of one, and she asked, “Do you know Hindi?” I said no, then she said, “If you study here, you should take Hindi, you can’t really know anything about India without Hindi”
There’s just a sentimentality/psychology associated with it I think.
ahh…the psychology of “i am indian and speak hindi. therefore to know anything about india you must speak hindi”
whcih is exactly why i don’t understand when people are OK with learning english, but not with hindi. one of my friends – who is rather liberal in most ways – has a knee-jerk reaction to anything urdu (and by extension hindi) because her family is bdeshi. even when i tell her how great hindi/urdu is linguistically, she won’t even hear of it. and she wasn’t even born in bdesh. i find it very odd…perhaps it’s the idea that english is separate but equal (or even superior, but it doesn’t matter, because it’s still not a desi language, so it is judged by a different standard) but an innate defensiveness enters when dealing with another desi language. as if this is some zero-sum game.
HMF, i was referring to the DMK and its off-shoots. that element of secession is still there, definitely.
re hindi vs. english, i meant that it just makes it easier for some people – as in melbourne desi’s example in bihar. but a lot of these poshly educated people are thinking more delhi or bombay, where even if english is enough, hindi gives you a social advantage, which is key for networking.
I took hindi classes in college to try to fit in with the desi crowd better. unfortunately i found out that im incompetant at languages…
I think the language conflict comes up when one language is exalted over all others. In the case of Hindi, Hindi is not widely spoken across the subcontinent, and it is associated with a few states as the “regional dialect.” Post-partition there was quite a bit of trumpeting of “Hind, Hindi, Hindu, Hindustan!” My parents were told that learning Punjabi was “rural, regionalistic, and backwards” and were only taught in Hindi and English. So, whether or not Hindi intrinsically means anything bad, it’s been co-opted in nationalist rhetoric at different historic moments. It seems like Tamil has a similar (nationalist) history. It’s not the language itself that’s an issue — it’s how people use it as a symbol to push their vision.
perhaps it’s the idea that english is separate but equal (or even superior, but it doesn’t matter, because it’s still not a desi language, so it is judged by a different standard) but an innate defensiveness enters when dealing with another desi language. as if this is some zero-sum game.
I can understand English over other South Asian languages — English isn’t indigenous in India and if you have to learn English, in theory, everyone is on equal ground. Whereas if Hindi-speaking or Tamil-speaking is emphasized, people in different parts of India, will have the leg-up on everyone else. Therefore English is kindof equalizing. India’s so unique in this way — we’re definitely a nation, but without a common language, not matter that HIndi is the national language.
thats interesting. explains why the older south indian crowd i know gets whipped into a frenzy saying that “they” wanted to “kill tamil” whenever I mentioned hindi.
I agree with you that the “rules” are pure nonsense. But I believe in full mobility between castes/religions/nationalities or whatever else. In particular, I reject the notion that “I was born in an X family, my parents were X, therefore I am also X”. If you want to be Y (where Y can be the same as X) of your own choice, I’m all for it. This by the way is not a radical view – it has had precedent in TamLand – MGR, EVR and Rajnikanth are identified as Tamil irrespective of their ancestry (Sri Lankan-born Nair, Erode-born Kannadiga, Bangalore-born Maharashtrian respectively).
i think language also might be a different from caste. caste is an odd thorny case…i mean, if your not of brahmin descent and you say you are a brahmin in a matrimonial add or something, that wouldnt fly…
In fact, if you look at a picture of the currency, the languages are arranged alphabetically, by the English alphabet.
I’m not sure that everyone that reacts this way is particularly “knee-jerking” Learning languages is a time exhaustive task, one that needs repeated reinforcement. For me its more of a cost benefit thing, If you can travel in most Indian cities with English (and perhaps even work in them) whats the point?
Well, the English teachers may have been a lot cooler.
/tongue firmly in cheek
And their “frenzy” was valid. Actually the Congress leaders tried to push English out and make Hindi the sole official language from 1965 . English was given time only for the first 15 years after Independence (actually the Republic, from 26 Jan 1950). Thanks to the anti-Hindi riots in Tamilnadu and some sane “national” leaders English’s official status was retained.. It is more of a “replace English with Hindi zeal” that pissed off South Indians particularly Tamils. coupled with the requirement that people from every non-Hindi state should compulsarily learn Hindi for national integration while giving a free pass to the “Hindi speaking crowd” of learning any of the south indian languages. Tamils said, “sorry no thanks”.
Risible, try and control your unwarranted hostility and insensitivity. The majority of people who read this site prefer policies of inclusion and tolerance to uncalled for insults about “half-whites”. Stop it.
Well, the English teachers may have been a lot cooler.
:); it’s been awhile since I’ve seen Pulp Fiction, but damn, that part was scary to me.