It’s been an adjustment, to experience this website’s growth and witness our readership change. People leave, others join, many lurk. While I miss some of our now-absent personalities who were prolific with their pondering (Punjabi Boy, Jai Singh, DesiDancer and Espressa come to mind), I’m thrilled about our new commenters, who are expanding our discussion and bringing their unique points of view to our cacophonous, rowdy, online adda. I’m especially looking at our first-gen contributors, like Runa and Malathi, because for stories like the one I’m trying to blog, I think their perspective is invaluable, for helping us find nuance and context. What I’m trying to say is, HELP.
Al Mujahid for Debauchery left this on our news tab:
Unbelievable. Pakistani actor Moin Akhtar (a muhajir/Indian origin himself) plays Hyderabadis from India in blackface in this ‘comedy’ show.
Wait, WHAT? And here is where the DBDs come in, because I don’t understand the clip below or know who these actors are, and as I’ve stated before, I like to get as much information as possible before I get my outrage on– and believe me, I could rage about actors in blackface.
What on earth is going on? And would someone who watches desi tv please tell me that this an uncommon practice? I fast forwarded through the clip, but I don’t get the greasy, huge-black-glasses-equipped, buck-toothed character, and by “don’t get”, I mean my spider sense is tingling. What, if anything, do all of you know?
fair enough. i remember back in my “glory days” (late 90’s) in college in the US, “indian” meant “punjabi with occasional pandering to gujjus”. south indian just didnt count. must be different in the indian entertainment industry. maybe the sample of bollywood that gets sold in the US is really skewed or something..
I think this is still true, in Bollywood and abroad. I’m not trying to divert the topic from Hyderabadis to Punjabis, just saying that people tend to get screwed all around, although in Bollywood I would argue Southies and Biharis get screwed… harder?
Punjabis do NOT dominate in film or popular representation.
Really. On the contrary:
The following is a list of famous Punjabi families and individual artistes who have worked in Bollywood:
[edit] Punajbi Families
The Kapoors – 1
The Kapoors – 2
The Kapoors – 3
The Malhotras
The Sahnis
The Anands
The Chopras
The Dutts
The Deols
The Tullis
The Puris
The Khannas – 1
The Khannas – 2
The Roshans
The Bedis
The Kapurs
The Devgans
The Oberois
The Paintals
[edit] Individual Artistes
[edit]
I think Camille’s right, there’s clear dominance in whats referred to as “Indian dance & music” in America, especially collegiate America. Likewise, all that hopping on one foot could enable these dancers to become hopscotch grand champions.
Just curious – how many people actually understood the language to any extent. I didnt notice the skin coloring. It could have been their natural skin color and paid no heed. It was a nice copper tone. I enjoy a similar complexion after a day sailing. I think it looks good on me so it wasnt offensive. The accents and the language nuances were slightly exaggerated but within a nominal stretch of reality. More than anything, I enjoyed the repartee and was not laughing at the accent or the costumes. Hence I ask, did anyone who understood the language find the sketch funny? While it may be superficially offensive for the props used, the nuance elevates it beyond the common comic sketches that use as schtick the tasteless verbalization of socially unacceptable or irresponsible behaviour.
Anna, thank you for blogging this. In fact, thank you, thank you, thank you!
I was so hoping someone would blog this, because ACFD, I followed the link you had set up from ultrabrown into youtube, from where I watched all the parts, first of the Hyderabadi, then of the Bihari, and then of the Dehlavi shows. Super-excellimento, in terms of authenticity, dialogue, delivery, content.
The two actors playing the roles of Hyderabadi, Bihari and Dehlavi (i) muhajir and (ii) visitor from India – are extremely good at what they do, I was left gasping at how well they showed both the regional variation in the Urdu accent, and the mindset and preoccupations, both of the mohajir and the visitor.
In each case, the mohajir is shown as being somewhat bourgeois, and affecting the corresponding airs, and the visitor from India as someone poorer and therefore a bit cruder (the mild classism I can live with; in part this does reflect the reality of who could and did migrate and who was left behind, in the 1940s and 1950s. The slightly ‘darker’ representation of the Hyderabadi visitor in part also reflects the color dimension of class – the upper middle classes migrated, the poor who couldn’t were also, on average, darker.)
The actual content of their dialogue is superb, and contains occassional sarcastic commentary both on Indian and Pakistani politics (within the latitude allowed by Pakistan TV). The comedy show is set up as a serious discussion of an actual cricket series, and the particular conceit of the show is that the talk show host ‘loses control’ of the show, because his hosts assert themselves and get aggressive – every moderator’s real-life nightmare – but provides an element of ‘reality’ and further authenticity. He has used this technique before in other comedy shows in PTV – and in this particular realization, has really shown its power.
I feel sad the cricket series is over and cannot form the context for more shows in which the Lakhnavi, Barelvi, Bhopali, Ludhianvi, etc accents are also spoofed. I think at worst this is like Canadians spoofing all the varieties of American accents that exist – not offensive whatsoever, and in this case marvelously authentic and very well done.
So – for all those who can spare time to watch the videos, all on youtube – they are excellent entertainment, so two thumbs up from me. DBDs will really like the authenticity of the representations which both Bollywood and other Indian media never spoof, out of PCness.
KT,
in that list, just out of curiosity? Are most of them in front of the camera or behind? I know very little about Bollywood, so the individual names mean nothing to me.
is the differnece between hyderabad urdu and pakistan urdu lik the difference between quebecois and the french spoken in paris, or is it just an accent?
Kush: No one is wailing dude, I am just stating a fact that where S. Indians are referenced by N. Indians it is almost always as a buffoon. There’s only one other ethno-linguitic group that has its Indian bona fides questioned as much and that is people from the NE with “Asian” phenotype. Not that I care given that where I am sitting there is an inverse relationship between proximity to Delhi and progress
guests
although in Bollywood I would argue Southies and Biharis get screwed… harder?
I would think that South Indians are not so much part of the bollywood b/c of course language – I know in Kerala most people do not understand Hindi. So I’m not sure if the South Indian actors get screwed when there is a very large South Indian cinema scene and lots of money to be made there.
But don’t Biharis speak Hindi?
But then recently I’ve noticed some major bollywood stars are S. Indian, like Ash and Shilpa Shetty.
in that list, just out of curiosity? Are most of them in front of the camera or behind? I know very little about Bollywood, so the individual names mean nothing to me.
All of them – front and behind. Look at the list carefully……some of them like Kapoor family (the first family of Bollywood), Roshan family, Doel family do it all – act, direct, produce.
That list is a tiny fraction – like Raveena Tandon father is a famous director, and is missing from the list.
HMF, some of them (Chopra, Roshan, Karan Johar) are behind the camera, but most are in front. Also Om Puri is related to Amrish Puri and Madan Puri. It’s also fascinating that the #1 Bollywood actresses (FWIW) have been mostly from the South – Vyjyanthimala, Hema Malini, Rekha, Sridevi. Madhuri Dixit is Maharashtrian.
well….its not just lack of presence. its active portrayal as a wierdo.
It’s also fascinating that the #1 Bollywood actresses (FWIW) have been mostly from the South – Vyjyanthimala, Hema Malini, Rekha, Sridevi. Madhuri Dixit is Maharashtrian.
Yes, it has always been. Add Jayalalitha too.
there are a lot of indian actors from pakistani shows now, and i recently read that a lot of indo-pak or pakistani productions are now being filmed in other countries, e.g. dubai (for visa issues?) and have about an equal number of actors from both countries.
but on a national scale, not as much, i think – when i think of ordinary people from the north, i actually don’t think of fairer-skinned people. it’s usually more that people in media from the north are fairer skinned (for a reason, i am assuming) and this helps to spread the notion of the north-south skin colour disparity. but the ordinary guy from bihar/gujarat/MP etc is not going to have much disparity in skin colour as compared to the average “south indian” (in quotes because it’s annoying that we’re all grouped together – e.g. ‘madrasi’ subs for all southies? please…)
totally O/T but in KT’s list, kulbhushan kharbanda jumped out at me – he’s one of the most versatile actors out there – though he played up his punjabi roots to the hilt in bollywood/hollywood and monsoon wedding.
cry me a river, Pinda
well….its not just lack of presence. its active portrayal as a wierdo.
I guess I don’t watch enuff bollywood to get that pattern
The two actors playing the roles of Hyderabadi, Bihari and Dehlavi
Do you mean the Delhi Urdu accent by Dehlavi? It sounded more Bollywood/Bombay than Delhi to me.
Clearly my perception of “domination” is totally totally skewed 🙂
I’m sure someone regional has a better explanation, but it’s really just dialectual difference, as far as I can tell. That said, it is audible.
Yes.
ahh…excellent. if you ever talk about discrimination or media portrayal, thats what i should tell you instead of actually thinking about what your saying. good idea…
So they’re somewhat similar to the Jews in Hollywood
Hollywood Pioneers:
Samuel Goldwyn, Louis B. Mayer, William Fox, Jesse L. Lasky, Carl Laemmle, Marcus Loew, Adolph Zukor, and the original Warner Brothers ( Harry Warner (1881–1958), Albert Warner (1883–1967), Sam Warner (1887–1927) and Jack L. Warner (1892–1978), )
dude, i was totally kidding. and too lazy to write anything of real substance in response. for the record, it’s quite annoying to me to see this portrayal of south indians speaking hindi – at least they try. no wonder people from the south (esp. tamilians) get so annoyed with the imposition of hindi as the ‘national’ language.
There are variations in grammar, vocabulary, verb declensions, intonation, delivery among the two. But, as for Indian Urdu as a whole, the essential aspect of note is that there are very significant variations within – there is no single Indian Urdu, and that is the point of the show. The real difficulty in comparison with Quebecois and Parisienne, however, is that, (ironically) Urdu is not native to Pakistan whatsoever, in the sense that French is to Paris.
The canonical form of Urdu that has now become standard in the (vernacular) educated classes in Pakistan has a high Persian vocabulary content, with a mixture of Urdu speaking styles once common in Delhi and UP, and a Punjabi-style accent in speech forms laid on top. To the extent that the language migrated with the Quebecois and froze in place as it was in the 18th century, it is Pakistani Urdu which might deserve that comparison, some centuries hence, not Hyderabadi! Pakistani Urdu in this sense bears a correspondence with Indian Hindi, with Sanskrit replacing Persian as the source of vocab.
Chachaji #56 – thanks for the explanation b/c I was lost;
Having grown up in the US, I think there is an instant aversion to anything to do with blackface. Your (Chachaji’s) perception of the show gives a different understanding of the actual humor —- did you grow up in India? I don’t think I’d find this offensive if there was an underlying idea, that these are stereotypes and the actors are making fun of people who stereotype —- like the humor of SNL,Wayne’s World, or Ali G.
I was left gasping at how well they showed both the regional variation in the Urdu accent
I disagree, Chachaji 🙂
Hyderabadi accent and Karachi accent have as much in common as the English and Irish accent. It takes no special skill to portray the Hyderabadi or the Bihari accent as different from the regular Delhi/UP accent. Now if they were to differentiate between the Urdu accents of Western UP from Eastern UP, Karachi Cosmopolitan from Delhi Cosmopolitan, then they deserve some kudos. Hyderabadi and Bihari accents are too easy.
Hi all and Anna,
Re: the outrage and accents – speaking as a Hyderabadi – Javed Jaafri was right on with what is typically ‘an old city’ (meaning people who live in old Hyderabad) accent – I remember the jokes us Hyderabadis would crack up to donning these accents — its actually a lot of fun when done in Hyd because we are not laughing at anyone but laughing at ourselves. Also — I used to find Mehmood’s Hyderabadi accent very irritating because it was more Karnataka dakhni urdu than Hyderabadi Dakhni. I remember as a child we would get a ton of audio cassettes with Hyderabadi jokes (I know you still get them – because a friend of mine said he’d bought some in the 90’s) – and the folks who enjoy them the most are Hyderabadis. And, yes – I could understand every single word spoken and its extremely hilarious and funny — as for the blackface and the buck teeth – that is annoying caricature. And, I know that when its done in Pakistan – it seems more like they are laughing at Hyderabadis rather than with them. But – again – Moin Akhtar’s jokes were extremely popular in Old city Hyderabad (where I had some family in the 70s and 80s – and remember being in splits listening to the jokes).
So all in all – the accent part — very, very authentic – more so than Mehmood. The blackface and buck teeth – annoying and unecessary….there you have it – a clarification from a true blue Hyderabadi…:-)
Ha. This is from wiki, contradicting my previous message:
“He was often thought to be the brother or cousin of late actors Madan Puri and Amrish Puri but he was not related to them.”
I stand corrected as of now. Will have to do some research to find out if the above statement’s correct or not.
One mild clarification – in each case, the ‘mohajir’ speaks a mildly ‘refined’ regional style of Indian Urdu, while the ‘visitor’ speaks a ‘cruder’, version, the show’s creative host using this to illustrate also the class dimension of linguistic and ‘dialectual’ variation. (Thanks Camille for that word :))Only the host himself is speaking ‘Pakistani Urdu’.
Kush, is it fair to characterize this as “wailing”? I don’t think it is whining to request more information regarding something submitted as a tip, by one of our most “senior” commenters. Especially when said tip is potentially SO offensive to, you know, greasy black South Indians, like me.
It’s interesting that you’re dismissive of all of this, because from your name, I’d guess that you are not South Indian. So perhaps this wouldn’t resonate with you, the way it did with me; I didn’t understand it, but when I posted about my spider sense “tingling”, in part I was remembering my parents’ stories about vicious anti-Southie racism while in College, in North India.
::
PindaUSA,
I’ll cry you a river. I think one of the reasons my parents didn’t bother with Bollywood was because of the shittiness of productions like this– Christian girls are sluts, South Indians are inferior, Punjabis are buffoons etc. You’re right, I do think there has been a tendency to be less than fair to those who are portrayed as nowhere near fair-skinned. The fact that the great Bolly-actresses came from the South is bullshit when it comes to establishing parity, because they were successful precisely because they could “pass” for Northern. If Bollywood actors and actresses don’t look like the average desi, then Hema Malini and SriDevi don’t look like the average Malaylee or Tamil woman.
::
One of the reasons why we’re worth reading is because of the quality (or quantity) of discussion. As it is, too many people feel intimidated and remain lurkers; this is one of my biggest concerns with SM. I will not tolerate a situation where perfectly normal comments are flamed and courteous commenters are personally attacked on this blog, not while I’m part of it. It’s bad enough people are too scared to contribute their potentially valuable and interesting voices, I’ll be damned if some of you scare off the few who are good enough to speak up.
I was stating a fact, not the reasons behind their success, nor denying that BW does not stereotype other communities.
I know you were stating a fact, and an interesting one at that. 🙂 I’m just sick of that same fact being thrown my way when I bring up stereotypes about South Indians in BW. My ire wasn’t aimed your way, I assure you.
Hyderabadi, thanks for your clarifying comments. I’ve only ever been to Hyderabad through its airport, on the way to Bangalore – kind of like the only time I’ve been in the South is when I went through Atlanta and DFW airports. That doesn’t mean I can’t tell a spot-on spoof of the Southern drawl, and I’m glad to see my sense of the Hyderabadi authenticity similarly confirmed!
Hyderabadi- great contribution to the thread. Thank you, much. 🙂 I appreciate it.
Anna, Exactly. Anyone who is Southie and has been subject to the gross innacuracies in portrayals of Southies in Bollywood will be more sensitive to the clip posted. No one who is not in my shoes will not understand how irritating it is to be labelled “Madarasi” and then be told the usual “Dravidian /Aryan nonsense”
Camille:
I am sorry but a big disagree on this one. Take a good look at Indian popular media over the last so many years and tell me which group is lampooned more. Its true that Punjabis/Punjabi culture absolutely dominates not just movies but also TV serials so the question of Punjabis ridiculously lampooning themselves does not arise
Chachaji:
Dialogue,delivery maybe.But its okay to show a Southie Hyderabdi as a blackface, buck-toothed buffoon? Surely if the dialogues are so good they do not need an unnecessary prop in the form of offensive makeup?
My original point ( in # 15) was this: I do not see this as some grand racial conspiracy by Pakistan to make fun of Indians. Rather an extension of the offensive lampooning of South Indians that has been part of popular media in India itself for so many years.
Runa, you Madrasi, you. 😉 Allow me to explain why we Lemurians are inferior to Scythians…
Runa, Kush has shown me the error of my ways. I think I generally focus on Punjabi Sikhs, hence the biased opinion on Punjabi-representation 🙂
As plenty of people have pointed out, Indian movies are full of stereotypes (one reason I stopped watching them in middle school); On the other hand, I think one should clarify what one means by “racism”. If the term is used here to mean perpetuation of unkind and unflattering stereotypes and hence social distance, then its fine. But in the U.S. context it means more that than that; it also implies power inequalities, i.e. such social distance is correlated with differences in income, political power, wealth, even self-perception (the latter an outcome of the first three). I don’t think you can say the same in the Indian context (where caste is more a marker of such power inequalities). No South Indian suffers from reduced life opportunities qua South Indian (i.e. they might suffer because of their caste etc.). So I suggest people clarify the sense in which they are using the term “racism”.
now…all we need is another group to dump on. then the circle of life continues!
and to add insult to injury ‘madras’ isn’t even pronounced properly when people say ‘madrasi’!
one of my pakistani friends (and because he’s pakistani, knows very little about the regional differences that exist in india) calls south indians ‘ande podle’ – because that’s how all south indian languages sound phonetically to him! try as i might, he refuses to drop this phrase, even after i told him how racist and insulting it is. the worst part is that he learned it from his own dad – i’m going to have to do some solid training when his children come around…
runa – i do have to disagree on the ridiculous lampooning – it might not happen to the extent of other regions, but there are definitely instances where the punjabi ‘poor relations’ are too loud, bright, jolly etc for the taste of their city/bombya counterparts.
my dad (a south indian who grew up in north india) would disagree..he was systematically and consistantly discriminated against (in his view).
ahh…because pakistan is a region of the world thats really hard to lampoon.
i could definitely see this happening in a work situation due to pre-conceived notions of how this person would fit in etc….
and it most definitely happens in social situations – part of the reason why my parents have mostly tamil friends, and shy away from socializing in certain non-south indian desi groups, is because they’ve actually been made to feel uncomfortable due to their south-indian-ness. one of my own friends even told me that the reason she’s closer to me than one of our malayali-american friends is because i can speak and understand hindi – i.e. our other friend’s south-indian-ness (or failure to take on some north-indian-ness) prevented a certain closeness.
Notice that there are two Hyderabadis, (just as there are two Biharis and two Dehlavis) – one more ‘refined’, the other ‘poorer and cruder’. The buck-toothedness is depicted so realistically, the actor carries off the prop so well, along with the props for the cross-eyedness – that I thought they represented a real medical condition of the actor. I salute this level of acting professionalism.
Also, I think a show like that has to derive humor from dialogue and delivery and autheniticity, but has to have some slapstick elements too. In this case the bucktoothedness is not gratuitous whatsoever – to the extent that bucktoothedness is a treatable medical condition if recognized early enough – it is less likely to be available to someone who is poor. In this sense it adds to the authenticity of the class representation. Unlike, for example, Apu, there is no paucity of representations – there is no room for believing, even within the parameters of this show, that all Hyderabadis are bucktoothed. There is a ‘refined’ Hyderabadi right there!
There is no need to censor out even the possibility that some people out there, even Hyderabadis, may in fact be bucktoothed.
Ahh, I meant in the aggregate. Are South Indians living in “north” India systematically disadvantaged? And can this be traced to their SOuth Indian-ness? The only instance I can think of that comes even close is the Shiv-Sena inspired and led anti-South Indian riots in Bombay slums (which led to the creation of South Indian gangs, and rise of people like “big” Rajan). But even this is a very very imperfect (almost not) of what I am talking about.
I met this chick from Delhi, I told her I never learned Hindi,
she says, “You don’t speak Hindi” in a shocking tone.
I respond, “Nope… but I do breathe oxygen, believe it or not.”
This is an outrage! Our refusal to be co-opted is being used to abuse us! Lemurians, MuraliMannered and everyone else– man your stations, the dread Northies are at it again. Arrrr.
(Seriously, though, that’s sad. I’ve heard the same awesome reasoning applied my way, because I’m xtian, and the person couldn’t relate to me, because of that. Ah, I love how people in our community love to broadcast shit…I would have never been the wiser, had the Hindu girl’s confidante not run straight to me, apres hearing this juicy, juicy rumor-goodness…)
i dont suppose you were trying to get *ction (were you?)
But in the U.S. context it means more that than that; it also implies power inequalities, i.e. such social distance is correlated with differences in income, political power, wealth, even self-perception (the latter an outcome of the first three). I don’t think you can say the same in the Indian context (where caste is more a marker of such power inequalities). No South Indian suffers from reduced life opportunities qua South Indian (i.e. they might suffer because of their caste etc.). So I suggest people clarify the sense in which they are using the term “racism”.
Yes, I was thinking the same thing.
Since I don’t watch enuff Indian shows/movies, I just find it hard to say whether I’m offended by this “blackface” for hyderbadis and I’m South Indian. Hema Malini and Ash are just as South Indian as anyone else who’s South Indian; I don’t consider them “passing” for North Indian. I just see them as light-skinned and whether your light-skinned northern person or light-skinned southern person, your light skin will be prized. Their fair-skin is prized in Hindi cinema and I’d also think Tamil cinema, etc. As for the South Indian actresses features – they’re very South Indian in my eyes. Small nose – cute face – That’s my impression of what are typical South Indian features – of course as actresses, they are going to be more beautiful than an average person walking the street. Same in Hollywood – same in pretty much any entertainment business.
i love it when people lack the ability to relate to someone who is the slightest bit different than them…its like something out of a tribal war taking place 5000 years ago.
Chachaji and Anna,
You are most welcome. Happy to be able to clarify.
Also, vis-a-vis the characterization i.e. the blackface etc — I couldn’t agree more that its a stereotype that the North Indians and Pakistanis engage in with South Indians. I remember there used to be all these stereotypes in Hyderabad about Pakistanis as well — as being stuck-up and self-absorbed and condescending – and the way Pakistani urdu is spoken was made fun as well — could be that it was in retaliation – but stereotyping of anyone is very annoying. But, I find the North Indian vs. South Indian stereotyping even more annoying perhaps because one comes across it so much more often — ‘oh, you people – how crude that you eat rice with your fingers rather than a spoon’ etc — hopefully its gotten better now, with the South coming into greater focus now with the IT industry. Btw, Outlook India did a special issue on North vs. South India – with interesting articles by Ramachandra Guha and others – there were several facts and figures kinds of articles also about how the South has leapt ahead quite a bit in the recent past. Some of the articles were very insightful into these North-South differences that we are discussing here.