Several of you have written to us regarding the grand opening of Canada’s Bochasanwasi Shri Akshar Purushottam Swaminarayan Sanstha Shri Swaminarayan Mandir (that was fun to type!). The pictures, which you can view in a slideshow here, are gorgeous. Were any Canadian mutineers there on July 22? If so, please let us know, below.
After 18 months of construction and millions in fundraising efforts, a one-of-a-kind Hindu temple opened Sunday in Toronto.
Prime Minister Stephen Harper was on-hand to celebrate the official unveiling of the BAPS Shri Swaminarayan Mandir.
Harper said the $40 million architectural marvel represents India’s and Canada’s embracement of spiritual and ethnic pluralism.
“Canada’s accommodation of diversity is not without precedent,” Harper said, addressing a large crowd.
“There have been forerunners — and of these perhaps none is as note-worthy as India.”
Located at Hwy 427 and Finch Avenue in north-west Toronto, the temple is an architectural masterpiece. Built with Turkish limestone and Italian marble, the temple was built by artisans armed with chisels, hammers and ancient Hindu doctrine outlining how a holy place should be constructed. [CTV.ca]
By the numbers:
–24,000: the number of pieces sculpted in India, marked with a barcode and then reassembled to create the mandir.
–July 22, 2007: official opening
–$40 million: cost of construction, majority of which came from the community
–400: the number of volunteers who devoted their time to such an awesome project.
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As giddy as such architectural perfection makes me, my inner %$#@< is wondering if Dubya would have made like Harper, had this mandir been constructed somewhere in this great nation…
Really now, do you people snipe and carp about opera houses and museums too? If not, why the fuss over a temple?
I wasn’t once I heard the cost 🙂 The tamil community here lacks the cohesion and collective wealth to put something like this together. There are a number of smaller sri lankan tamil hindu temples scattered across Toronto, though. A few are small and exceedingly beautiful (once you get inside) and others are crap. The biggest one is probably the one in Richmond Hill…it doesn’t come close to this one in terms of grandeur or impressiveness but, on the flip side, it’s somewhat remote and can be quite serene (except on holy days or whatever). I haven’t visited this one yet, but it really does look beautiful.
I had no idea what BAPS was until this thread, so thanks for that. Also, as a non-religious hindu-by-birth brown, i think spending $40 mil on a temple is a bit silly and i question their motives.
Anna, snuffle = sniffle + shuffle? :):(
Hope you feel better and your ankle heals soon!
BTW, ‘snuffle busting’ is archaic Aussie (slang) for the ‘Pathetically Politically Correct’
Of course, nobody here is snuffle busting! 🙂
When I’m in places like this temple, as odd as it may sound, I feel closer to the divine, because of the awe and the stunning gorgeousness of it all. Was St. Patrick’s Cathedral a waste? When millions of people light a candle there and feel peace, no. That Cathedral is bang in the middle of Manhattan– how much would it cost? Are these questions doing anything besides inspiring ire and defensiveness? Some people fast to become closer to their God, others do charity, and others still volunteer to build something magnificent like this structure, with their own hands– I’m thankful for all of it.
Beauty blesses us all, BAPS or not.
Opera and museum are utilitarian buildings they don’t pretend to be some thing else. When a organization claims to be socio-spiritual! It makes you wonder why spend $40 million on a temple. http://www.swaminarayan.org/introduction/index.htm
They do so much good with their many hospitals,schools and other social activities.$40 million could have been spent on any of these activities. Temple is suppose to bring you toward God, not to show affluence of your religion/cult.
It’s always good to question motives and a $40M temple, even in a booming city like Toronto, will stand out.
I grew up near a $3M temple in a rural county where per capita income was $13,669 and median household income is about $29,882, according to the 2000 census
From a ‘rational’ standpoint, one would think that the $3M would’ve been better served by doling it out to the community or funding some sort of jobs-training program, but there’s really nothing quite as magnetic to Yoga tourists as a gigantic lotus flower in the middle of the Virginia hill country.
And yes, until you go there, you’ll never grasp it’s true worth. Just like libertarians and right-wing Republicans blustering about the irrelevancy of the NEA, it’s hard for the utilitarian observer to appreciate the artistic/architectural splendor of temples like the Swaminarayan and the Lotus.
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/articleshow/879612.cms
Precisely!!
Philosophically, the idea behind at least some schools of Hinduism (not sure about BAPS) is to reduce attachment or moha, to be desirous of less and less. That everything is an illusion or Maya. I don’t see how a structure like this which seems to be all about more and big adheres to that.
In practice too, whats been imbibed in me as a part of Hinduism is to place more importance to your fellow men/women and other living creatures.. to care about those who don’t have what you have. I guess, I have not explicitly said this, but I do see the usefulness of temples but a simpler less ostentatious one would work just as well to connect with the good Lord. They surely don’t need this experiment in grandeur for that.
Plus a temple is supposed to be a center for it’s religion (hinduism in this case?? Unless it’s different from BAPSism) Now this ostentatiousness is counter to whatever I know about Hinduism. Preach and practice seem a little out of sync here if BAPS does indeed share beliefs of other forms of Hinduism.
So whats the research on charitable giving-edifice building-tax deductions triangle?
They do so much good with their many hospitals,schools and other social activities.$40 million could have been spent on any of these activities. Temple is suppose to bring you toward God, not to show affluence of your religion/cult.
I think this is a naive view of how charity works. A prestigious mandir like this one will eventually become an engine for charitable work once it becomes established, and in the long run may generate much more than $40 million for the less fortunate. Also, I think the mandir will have a positive effect on the community that it’s situated in; Toronto’s a great place in a lot of ways, but architecturally inspiring it’s not. Here’s an article by the Toronto Star’s art critic on the potential for the mandir to transform the city:
http://www.thestar.com/News/article/233400.
Ultimately, I think wasteofmoney and Ardy are being needlessly austere, and their objections ignore the important role that aesthetic experience plays in Hinduism. It doesn’t seem like you guys would have much time for the awe-inspiring temples of South India, bharatnatyam, or carnatic music, since all those things take up time and resources that could have been better spent on feeding the poor, but I think Hinduism would be poorer without them.
The entrance is very similar to akshardham in new delhi!!!almost ditto it looks like
new delhi akshardham has fountain shows , with lights and everything, and a an imax movie screen that shows movie about swami narayan – its become a tourist attraction in delhi 🙂
EXACTLY. There would be no high culture or sophistication in the arts (including architecture) if these people had their way. After all everything costs money which could be better spent in another way, right? Take the Pyramids of Egypt…while acknowledging that (probably) back-breaking slave labor was involved in their creation, and also that some of Egypt’s deforestation and environmental degradation came about from their creation, the fact remains that they are incredibly impressive and astounding structures, so beautiful in their deceptive simplicity. You marvel at the engineering, the conceptualisation, and the civilisation that produced them (with all its flaws). This Canadian temple, while not comparable, would nonetheless appear to be a respository of very high quality desi sculpture and temple craft. Which itself is a highly-developed art form and a philosophy.
I don’t think an either/or perspective – i.e., temples or food for the hungry – is the way to go. Rather, both/and makes more sense. Sikh temples, for example, have their own grandeur. Yet they also have langars – food for pilgrims, the hungry and needy – both. The Hindu temple tradition does not have this tradition of free meals for the poor, although there are ‘Hindu’ charities and institutions that feed the poor and hungry in India. My family in India has a tradition of endowing monies to such charities, and I have maintained this tradition here by regularly contributing to soup kitchens, food banks, and homeless shelters, almost all of which are run by Church-affiliated charities. I have always wished that Hindu temples did this too.
Chachaji:
Some temples have a practice called anna danam. Annam = cooked rice or, more generically, a square meal. danam = free gift. The Hindu temple in Livermore, CA has anna danam. Under Jayalalita’s regime, the temples controlled by Tamil Nadu’s state government also began to have anna danam.
My suspicion is that temples have anna danam if their coffers are full and drop it otherwise. Temple coffers fill when the economy booms. In the mid-seventies, the desi economy had stagnated, so temples were not running anna danam then. But things have changed now.
Sena X, They are all based on Dilwara temple template.
Such a big hue & cry about 40M. i know that’s huge dude! But imagine the investment in the long term. How many visitors will visit this place! SO much money will be spent by the visitors in the nearby businesses-motels, retail business etc- then also, think of the exposure of art and sculture that this mandir gives to the local schools, children and students of the arts! WOW!! i amnot in toronto, but am already making up my mind to visit it sometime when i am in that area.
On the matter of numbers, i checked http://www.bapscare.org and viola! they are involved in all sorts of good deeds. Guess they already put in millions of dollars in community well being across the world annually. Claim to put in over million manhours in societal aid, annually!!
Considering the fact that this mandir will help preserve the hindu culture and reflect indian tradition, for a pretty long time, in itself is a good reason to invest such amount! Needless to say, in INdia, due to cost of living, it would not have been such a big amount. Mital put in twice the amount in a wedding!! So, it’s all relative, yaar!!:)
According to the BAPS Organization: “A mandir is man’s attempt to recreate nature wherever he settles in villages, towns or cities where he can revive peace and tranquility and worship God in silent serenity.”
Right on Amba. Great points made.
I don’t know much about Hindu tradition but I know from personal experience that this Swaminarayan temple gives out free meals on Sundays to anyone who shows up.
There is another large temple in Toronto called the Sanatan Mandir that also gives out free meals.
But I don’t really know how prevalent this practice is at other temples.
Most Hindu temples in India that I’ve been to don’t, or didn’t. There are other ‘Hindu’ charities that feed the poor, but usually not temples. Here’s a description of one of the programs at the Livermore temple – though this is only for the New Years weekend, I hope it happens throughout the year too….
I’m glad to hear this. But the news item said it just opened Sunday. Has it been actually open for much longer and just formally open last Sunday?
Societies since yore have been constructing as grand monuments as they can. This is to inspire, to make man feel the grandness of the edifice reflected on him, to make him feel a part of a continuous something larger than himself.
Those who ask whether money might be better spent on feeding people, do not understand this, and I’m sad that they don’t. They are missing out on that which makes being human “worth it”.
I think its primary purpose was to establish, clearly and profoundly, the wealth and presence of the community that built it. There isn’t anything wrong with that. Just, as a Torontonian (booming city?!), I can’t get my head around that amount of money being spent on a building (i also dislike the rom crystal), especially when its location is so close to one of the poorest parts of the city.
But then, I’m probably a philistine. Muralimannered may be right, maybe it will inspire greatness or awe or maybe it will just be a diversion from the grey blandness of that part of the city.
I guess some final comments since the same points are being raised again and again and which I have tried to brifly address in my previous posts
The point of it being a center for culture etc is something I agreed with when I said I see merits of there being temples. But I am not convinced if a 40 million one would do a lot more than say a 20 million one. Sure it will bring some advantages, but to me it seems like diminishing returns. I feel there has to be a balance between practicality and grandeur. Plus where do you stop, tomorrow some other city will try to make a better temple and this one upmanship could continue. Bottom line being, I feel this one went overboard, it could have achieved most of it’s objectives without being so grand except that of being ‘the coolest’. At no point am I saying that they had to do a sloppy job for austerity’s sake.
Someone pointed out about historically there being always the development of grand structures. I already mentioned that India no longer has the same luxury that it did say in the 1700s and earlier of 25% global trade etc. And even if not India, there are plenty of places needing a hand, people starving and dying or living off a dollar a day and not because they are bums who don’t want to work. These folks could have set a grander example by doing more on that front.
In the end it still seems like, despite all the explanations and caveats given –
And thats what I have a primary discomfort with, not with big temples, not with art but the vanity.
That said, to each his own – if I ever go to that part of the woods, I would surely love to see it. I have seen the Dilwara temples and they are just absolutely amazing…. this being seemingly inspired by the same definitely evokes an architectural interest in me. And I sure hope it engenders more charity than any other temple simply because of the grandness of it all.
Wow, this mandir looks awesome!!!!!!!!!! Being a practicing Hindu, it makes me feel proud. It shows that the Canadian Hindu community has truly arrived. I want to congratulate my Canadian Hindu brothers/sisters on achieving this feat. It would be great if we could have more such mandirs in North America (one in every major city).
most of the north american hindu temples i have seen are in okayish localities. the one that i remember is located in a stunning place is the temple at malibu beach.
I can’t get my head around that amount of money being spent on a building (i also dislike the rom crystal), especially when its location is so close to one of the poorest parts of the city.
Didn’t the ugly-ass ROM crystal cost $135 million? The $40 million price tag for the mandir seems modest in comparison. A lot of people don’t realize just how expensive major architectural projects are. I think the fact that the mandir is located in a less salubrious neighbourhood is a point in its favour; the mandir didn’t cost the people who live there anything because it wasn’t publically funded, and having one beautiful building in an area dominated by strip malls might make the place a bit more liveable for its inhabitants.
Random observations from the opening.
I am glad the PM, the premier, the mayor and prominent members of the opposition party showed up. It is a huge boost for Toronto, who is in perpetual struggle for a larger size of the federal, provincial budgets. The attention is very welcome. That said, PM Harper looked petrified sitting on a throne while the courtesans danced in front of him (not an exaggeration).
Some aspects were unusual. The statues are placed two a side against each wall (more or less. I lost count) in the main temple space and I was surprised to see the gurus given equal honor as the Gods. There are some plaster lions (all are males btw) and swans in midflight in the lawn, and plastic ducks in the fountain. It didnt jive with the rest of the complex. But the kids had a lot of fun riding them. So maybe that was intentional.
If there is one recommendation I would make, that would be to locate garbage bins on the grounds. The volunteers were kind enough to hand out water bottles to the people waiting in lines. But there were no garbage baskets to deposit them, when empty. It’s a simple remedy.
On a positive note, I saw a healthy representation of the southasian population – including Tamils, Punjabi hindus, Sikhs, hindus from the Gangetic belt, Gujratis, Nepalis etc. It felt good observing the confluence of desi society.
The temple is sublime in that the art doesnt distinguish from the architecture. I was not spiritually moved but it’s a personal shortcoming. As a focal point for society, the temple has succeeded – as did the ROM. (Amba: I take offence at your last comment. The rock is an odd nut but opening night saw it attract a crowd that would never have ventured in. Even I renewed my membership after havign let it lapse over the last couple of years. more importantly, I was there from 2 to 6 (am) and the place was humming all night. not bad foR amuseum.)
BTW – chaddis and skirts (above knee) are not permitted inside the temple. Be aware. Photography isnt permitted inside, although there didnt appear to be any restrictions on taking cameras in.
FYI – for those planning a trip to TO (Attention: YoDad), the hindu sabha temple in brampton may also merit a visit.
Okay, a lot has been said about the $40m, BAPS etc. Those who object to the price-tag, I respond:
Ok now that the haterade is out, let me talk about BAPS and it’s temples 🙂
They build temples to act as beacons to their followers and the general hindu population, similar to the B’hai Religion. It’s sort of their marker if you will. In their religious interaction practices with their followers, they seem closer to American evangelism than any other religious group. Except for proselytizing. But just like in Churches here there’s a strong tradition of tithing, so are the BAPS trying to do. I personally I guess only have problem with the extrovert nature of the movement which seems unlike Hinduism in that Hinduism is significantly introverted and focused on personal self. I prefer seeking out Hindu traditions, temples whatever as I feel a need for them, as opposed to being marketed to or pushed to. I also don’t like the amusement park nature of the some of their steller temples. I don’t like that the sadhus seem pretentious – if you’re truly ‘there’ (as it seems by the respect they must command) what’s a few ladies in front of you? What if they were nothing but skin? Why should any of it ruffle your feathers? There’s a great fable in Hindu story tradition about it. Ping me if you care and I’ll find and post it here.
I have very close friend whose family is swaminarayan. They invited us to some swaminarayan thing at their home, we went mistaking it for ‘satyanarayan’ katha. Ha!! We got there, found a bunch of monks in saffron, ‘pravachan’ in Gujrati which we don’t understand, so it was not that spiritual for us. Our friends pass along DVDs of new temples etc. I’m just not into the swamis so it’s never a priority. But there is an element of Hindu outreach there that I’m not completely square with. I do think it needs to be done in today’s world for a way of life to survive, yet I do wish they didn’t have their swami images much larger than Shiv and Krishn. I just don’t feel that a human based in reality is God-like divine, any more than the rest of humans.
On the positive side, they do social work in India that is greatly needed, are able to tap into wealthy merchant/self-employed in a region that’s always donated in the past and continues to need outlets it can trust for it’s charity, are non-violent, try to put forth a slice of Hinduism with some packaging, and are far less pushy than ISKONites.
trollerboi and Seeker – nice posts and good points.
And trollerboi, thanks for the video link. Harper is often criticized for his stilted and wooden body language, and formal speech style – he makes Al Gore look positively lively and folksy. However, I liked his quote from Manmohan Singh.
‘Courtesans’ is an interesting choice of word – for the male dancers – who seemed mostly to dance behind him in the clip. Were there any female dancers at all? An interesting question since there seems to be so much ado about the ‘swamis’ not seeing females from up close etc.
And for anyone else who wants to clarify about the BAPS folk – I’m still a little unsure whether they do or don’t seek converts, or whether there is in fact some distinctive set of beliefs that sets them apart from other Hindus – especially after Seeker’s description of being invited to a ‘swaminarayan thing’. I would imagine there is some distinction between clergy and laity – or does everyone dress up in saffron? And Seeker, I too would probably have confused that with a ‘Satyanarayan pooja’, before this post enlightened me about the BAPS!
I think this is a wondrous piece of inspired architecture, a high net positive by any account, still, I’m not sure I’d want to see a kind of competition between this temple and the Pittsburgh temple (or Lanham or Livermore or any other) to build bigger and grander, as someone was suggesting. Small and simple can be beautiful too.
One of my favorite mandirs was the Prabhadevi Ganesh Mandir in Mumbai.I had visited it way back when it was a little cavelike mandir with direct access to the deity.Then it got all spiffy when it was “discovered” specifically after Amitabh Bachchan nearly died and his wife promised to donate a lot of money to the mandir if he got better.The temple was rearchitected with a large “gopuram” topped with pure gold.Its still beautiful but in a different way – more commercial now .The idol is the same but darshan is limited to a few minutes because of the throngs trying to get in …
Thanks Chachaji 🙂
I know they have distinctive set of beliefs that overlap some but not completely with other beliefs in Hinduism. One is it’s swami leadership and divinity as others have mentioned, another may be celibacy (not sure- extrapolating from having not seen Sadhvees, and the description of gender segregation above). I too don’t know whether they seek converts – I’ve been to another swaminarayan thing in the past and there too, it didn’t seem that they were trying to get converts, also not sure if they have religious procedures in place to bring the convert-to-be into their mainstream. Only the clergy does uniform, and I think that time they were wearing white…
I know that the swamis travel from India to US, UK etc. and only stay at devotee homes for a few days at a time so different families get to host them before they move to their next destination city – kinda like being on a concert circuit 🙂
I don’t care how $$$ they spent on this magnificent structure. It is on Canadian soil and that is worth it.
WasteOfMoney on July 25, 2007 04:06 PM · Direct link what do you get for $40 million from any religion : nothing,zero, shunya Toronto got a beautiful building, and considering how architecturally dire Toronto is, that ain’t nothing.
So a beautiful building (in the name of religion) is better then feeding 40000 families!!! Being a Hindu I was always told to feed the hungry and help the poor. I see Hindus donating a ton of money to temple but won’t give $20 for Tsunami victims, won’t buy $5 tickets in a local fund raiser.
Enough about the $40 million. To put a structure with this level of detail in a major metropolitan Canadian City for $40 million is a steal. The importance about the philanthropic effects of this project are not determined by the absolute amount of money spent, but the percentage of money that is allocated to:
Lnd aquisition (Purely Canadian Transaction) Mterial transport cost (Which Airline was used) Mterial aquisition (Percentage that is Indian/Canadian) Lgistics and design (donated? Indian/Canddian mix) Local (Canadian) labour (% volunteer/paid/visa workers) Freign (Indian) laobour
What a lot of posters such as wasteofmoney and other armchair economists seem to be missing is that the use of Indian labour for creating the components for this project represents a transfer of funds from a G8 country to a Developing Country and in a sector of the economy (mannual craft labour) that is not part of the emerging Indian Middle class (meaning there is still excess labour in this area). These temples are creating a market for Indian labourers and supporting them without giving them a handout. As long as they are not indentured labourers, this project feeds the family of workers involved and depending on the wages garnered allows them to make their own consumption/savings (if any) decisions.
Furthermore the money circulating in the Indian market will have a multiplier effect that will be experienced by the local community as a whole.
I would be interested in seeing what percentage of the budge went to each of the cost centers listed above. It would also be interesting to see how this measures with the (administrative/allocation) budgets of other NGOs.
I was at the Delhi one a couple of weeks ago and I was thinking exactly the same thing. It was awesomely beautiful and wonderful. The workmanship was unbelieveable – but ultimately, there wasn’t anything spritual about the place. I left feeling a little empty.
If this is true then why all the millions of temples in India? Why all the extroverted mahotsavas (festivals) and the kathas/kirtans broadcast over a very loud loud-speaker in practically every town and village?
Honestly, Hinduism is both introvert and very, very extrovert.
Vikas, What you say is not false, however, none of it is disneyfied or bent on outreach. Temples, festivals are still part of internal, personal dialog. Loud-speakers are pure stupidity – it simply cannot be justified in any tradition.
.
There are some sects in Hinduism which are very out-reachy and they have always been.
So I say Hinduism has both aspects.
Let me comment on 3 themes that have a common thread in the feed back: 1a) COST – First of all, I think $40m is not hard cash – I would say a subtantial part of that sum is cost in kind – expertise of volunteer engineers, stone specialist, logistics experts and donation in kind! 1b) Could the funds have been used better elsewhere? – The Mandir indirectly encourages us to draw our attention to the less fortunate than us – it definitely helps to make us into better humans. Traditionally, we Indians are used to support educational and health needs by digging into our pockets. Is it not time we elect a government that takes care of these basic needs as priority 1 like the rest in the West?
2) Segregation of Women – Instinctly we tend to congregate into groups of women and men whether it is a wedding function or religious gathering. At BAPS gatherings it is more noticed because it is enforced upon us! It is worth remembering that this is done to help the sadhus follow their vows – even if they break this vow accidently they have to fast for 24 hours. In reality, the sadhus are quite proficient in following this particular vow in public- during travels, visits to exhibitions and other public places etc! It is very unfortunate that some BAPS volunteers are over zealous.
3) Fund Raising Unfortunately, the morden society we live in does not tick without money. To do any notable projects one needs to raise funds. Every organisation I have come across has fund raising programmes. The question we should be concerned with is wheather the funds are used for what they are collected for. (Does any body share my observation that the people who do not contribute a cent are the most voiceferous on this subject?)
Hi everyone,
This is quite an interesting conversation. I’ve known many members of BAPS throughout my life and I thought I would comment on some of the things that have been said in this discussion. I raised a similar question that many of you have been raising about spending $40M on this instead of feeding the poor. However, if you go to http://www.bapscharities.org, you will see that this same organization spends a lot of time, money, and manpower in helping people. I heard about how they helped people after the Gujarat earthquake and I was completely bowled over! This is an organization that focuses on both community service and spirituality.
And frankly, I’m proud of the Toronto temple. I think that it is a testament to the nature of modern society, where communities are becoming more diverse. And if the Swaminarayan followers want to build a place of worship, why should we criticize it?
And as for the separation of women, I don’t think it is as bad as we make it sound. Yeah, sure the women are separated. But this is so that the monks who have taken the 8-fold celibacy vow don’t get tempted to break it. In today’s age of sex scandals in religions across the world, including Hinduism, I think it’s a welcome change to see this particular organization strive to keep the purity of it’s monks’ vows.
As a previous poster pointed out, Lord Swaminarayan, who is their God, worked really hard for the upliftment of women. He lived over 200 years ago and at that time, according to societal norms, families who gave birth to baby girls would drown them in milk and kill them because they couldn’t afford to pay a dowry when it came time for that girl to get married. Society also promoted the practice of sati, where widows would be burned alive on their husband’s funeral pyre. Lord Swaminarayan and his monks worked to stop these practices and many others that to us seem simply indigestible.
Also, many of the people I have known are women of BAPS and I have never gotten the impression that they felt segregated against. They all understand the need for separation. And they all come with their own free will. In fact, the separation serves to empower these women help them develop a sense of their own identity, separate from their husband or father, which many times is hard to do in Indian society.
These are just some observations I have made about BAPS.
I was reading some of the comments, and figured this would be a good place to ask a question that I have always wondered about: How do you differentiate between sects, cults, and religions? (And related, why is scientology, for example, more objectionable than?)
Rahul, this is what I found. I hope it helps:
They main aim is Tourist Attraction.. it has an Cultural Musueme at the Bottom of the Temple.. that is right.. when someone was comparing it to disneyland… Its more so to educate people about vedic culture.. i beleive…
and adding to that comment i just made.. its is a good way to preserve culture and it been said apparently it will last for my generations the way the made it from weather and stuff.. even though they spend lots of money… its good for preserving culture
Rahul # 139
How about this?
Religion: specific fundamental set of beliefs and practices generally agreed upon by a number of persons or sects
sect:A group of people forming a distinct unit within a larger group by virtue of certain refinements or distinctions of belief or practice
Cult: a religion or sect considered to be false, unorthodox, or extremist, with members often living outside of conventional society under the direction of a charismatic leader.
These are some acceptable dictionary definitions and also the way I usually use these terms.
sorry for the tandem post but.. Rahul, Its all a matter of perception .A Scientologist will probably find Hinduism bizarre 😉 Religion is so personal that its little wonder that the world is full of people fighting over it because no one can agree on what is “right”
Thanks, Runa. But I am still having difficulty understanding when a belief system crosses these boundaries, and when I should start feeling all outraged about it. Which of the following is false, unorthodox, or extremist?
Belief system A: Has, in its practice, an elaborate set of groups and subgroups with an established hierarchy justified by ancient texts, and some subgroups being completely ostractized from society or interaction with other groups.
Belief system B: Believes, among other things, that pain in people is caused by remnants of aliens from some long-ago conquest, and that mothers should give birth silently to avoid inducing aberrations that can cause pain and suffering in the baby.
Belief system C: Believes some or all of the following: the world was created 6000 years ago, has had incidents where established members of this system have abused their reputation in the community to sexually assault unsuspecting members, and have been shielded by the organization, and posits that their leader will appear one day and take all the true believers with him back to heaven.
Rahul,
I think with B. Scientology you identified their core beliefs, but with A. Hinduism and C. Christianity you cherry picked the worst aspects. Both religions have contributed greatly to civilization. Even if you don’t accept the beliefs, they have made contributions to art, literature, architecture, etc. What has scientology contributed?
ups, maybe we should make the judgment after a couple thousand years when we’ve let entire countries of people be swayed by a particular belief system then? That seems only fair. Maybe in the year 4000, we will recognize the version of Battlefield Earth that exists then as a classic in the same realm as the Gita and the Testaments.
As for A and C, I definitely haven’t listed all their worst aspects. And who is to decide what are core beliefs are what are side beliefs? I can only go by what the infallible leaders tell me to do.
“Maybe in the year 4000, we will recognize the version of Battlefield Earth that exists then as a classic in the same realm as the Gita and the Testaments.”
OK
Personally,I would only feel outraged when : 1) The belief system affects me personally in a negative way OR 2) The belief system itself – and NOT just a few adherents of that belief system – systematically oppress a class of people.
To address your examples: – Scientology in itself does not affect me personally and so far,I haven’t seen that it harms anyone.So I feel no need to feel outrage about it. ( I still reserve the right to feel outraged at TOm Cruise’s wooden screen performances though!) -Per my understanding, Hinduism in itself does not require adherence to the caste system .Being Hindu is not = being casteist so I have no problems with being Hindu. I can still feel- and do feel- outraged at the terrible crimes that are committed in the name of caste . – Some members of the Catholic clergy have sexually abused children .It is a terrible crime but that does not mean that the Catholic religious beliefs are to blame. That does not lessen my outrage at the crime but I see no need to feel outrage at the religion itself.
i think, “in practice” doesn’t denote dogma–a component that Hinduism as a unit certainly lacks. If the blame for the phenomonon of the caste system is to be placed, I think we can turn quite confidently to the various societies that propagated the system down through the years.
Scientology on the other, certainly does have it’s own dogmas–chief among them, a hatred of psychiatry and psyhiatrists–I admit my own bias here as my favorite uncles is one–but I do remember Scientologists protesting on the streets of Melbourne, spraying vitamin-fortified spittle at passers-by, while ‘exposing’ members of the medical community as immoral monsters preying on the weak. Some psychiatric pharms are certainly overprescribed, but that’s hardly specific to psychiatry–there are other medical specialties in which signature pharms are also overprescribed.
The mind is also a subject for which we know much of what works–but not why (which is dangerous in and of itself)–but I don’t think we should suspend our inquiry for the sake of a few, well-heeled, DYI, health maniacs
I just recoil when a religion makes a truth-claim about human nature, and then starts to attack the field of science which specializes in it. There is room for improvement, certainly, but now is not the time to start treating bipolar disorder with vitamins and 20 minutes on the treadmill. I think that’s dangerous, quite frankly.