An interesting set of stats posted on the SM news tab talks about workforce participation amongst South Asians in the UK –
Six million Britons are living in households where nobody works – costing the taxpayer almost £13 billion a year in benefits alone, a spending watchdog report reveals today.
…The problem is concentrated in cities including inner London – where one in four households are workless – Birmingham, Liverpool and Manchester, and is worse among some ethnic groups. Pakistani and Bangladeshi households are the most likely to be workless at 22.3 per cent, while Indian households are the least likely, at 6.8 per cent.
Internationally Britain has one of the worst rates of worklessness. Around 13.5 per cent of the UK population live in workless households, compared with compared with 11 per cent in France, five per cent in the United States and less than 3 per cent in Japan.
For next door neighbors to be both the worst and the first on this sort of distribution is pretty interesting. Anyone (Razib?) know what diffs in immigration patterns b/t Pakistani & Bangladeshi’s vs. Indian’s to the UK might be?
Razib, I hope you will continue to contribute as time permits. The issue merits deeper exploration. I would normally expect a sentence such as this when an academic is throwing up his hands and saying ‘I don’t know!’.
i don’t have time right now to elaborate, but i’ll clarify what i mean. in evolutionary biology you can have two populations in two different ecosystems where the characteristics of the populations are slightly different and the ecosystems are slightly different; but over time selective forces “snowball” so that they go off on their alternative tracks in a path dependent manner. in terms of “endogenous,” i’m talking social capital. the east africans asians are often self-emloyed, but whether they are hindu or muslim they often are in business because that is their customary “profession,” and, they have international social networks that they can leverage to facilitate their entrepenurial bent. similarly, a basal level of education in an economy is something you start with that might give you a leg up and push you into a positive spiral; you have choices, and some of the capital is probably heritable. in terms of “exogenous,” for muslims i think the nature of the international ummah is not to be ignored. as noted in other places many second-gen pakistani muslims are assimilated toward an ‘international arabicized’ islamic identity that supersedes the localized south asian islam of their parents. like it or not due to various circumstances there is the perception that the ummah is at ‘war’ with the west, and these individuals have a somewhat antagonistic relationship with britain because of these loyalties (the lack of patriotism of some british muslims is assumed to be due to british involvement in iraq, etc.). i also think that the fact that most british muslims are of only a few ethnicities results in a ‘syngerisic’ identity where being muslim is more than just a religion, it is a total package identity. in contrast, in the USA muslims are racially diverse, and economically more varied. this prevents the religion from becoming such a politicized rallying point. anyway, got to go….
For Sikh’s one explanation could be that in India, Sikh’s are the most wealthy on average and thus less likely to leave India, so the one’s that are not so educated or wealthy are moving on to England and thus uneducated = no money, for the most part.
Or Sikh’s just might be dumber then the rest of the lot. Decide for yourself.
p.s. i left this implicit, but the important selective pressure in the model above is peer pressure and the need for esteem & status. initially small differences can become large due to selective pressures. in the USA brown culture there tends to be a gauche “why aren’t you a doctor or engneer or lawyer” dynamic, but the good outcome of this is that it is pushing marginals toward a positive social outcome. in contrast, the same individuals in a culture with different incentives might develop on a totally different track.
Down under we have a term for such fellows – “dole bludgers”. When someone says that they cant get a job I can only assume that the price they are demanding for their services is beyond what the market will bear. In Oz the common dole bludger is an Anglo Aussie whose ancestry stretches back a few generations (aka white trash). Am not including the aboriginals. Very rarely does one see or hear of an immigrant being a DB. Even reffos (refugees) try to find a decent job. Quite possible that the first gen immigrant has not figured out how to work the system. Even the immigrant bashing TV programs have not found too many immigrant dole bludgers. Lebs are favourite whipping boys but hardly anyone accuses them of dole bludging – they are accused of much worse 🙂
Vic, dude, do you want to know why you come across as a racist to those who don’t know you ? Please note that I’m not calling you a racist; I just want to deconstruct why many on this board may validly suspect who you are:
Exhibit A from #14:
(Emphases mine) It is highly probable that your shuttling back and forth between two alternative spellings of the the word “Muslim” was just a case of lazy commenting. But, for those of us who have an interest in tracking race/religion-based defamation, what you just did is one of the top 10 signatures of armchair Islamophobes who comment on the Internet.
More tellingly, Exhibit B, again from #14:
Most of the professionals who deal with the same set of statistics as Arthur Hu does either a) Don’t know who he is; or b) View him as a dabbler who draws only the most superficial conclusions from his data; or c) Consider him a racist who who disguises his racism with boiler-plate of the form: “Group A hates group B, group X hates group Y, but I challenge you to find the hate in my writings.”
Referenceing Arthur Hu really affects your own credibility. I am not surprised that a pro like Camille would suspect you of being a racist/religionist/bigot. Before you accuse people of hypocrisy, it would be a good thing to review whether there may have been something in your own words that made them point fingers at you. In other words: don’t be so goddamned cocksure about your own erudition and/or the rigour of your blog-commenting style.
Oh, and yes, Vic dude, it might help to be a little more original than this:
As an aside to all mutineers, could we declare a moratorium on , “Have a nice life,” please ? It is getting a bit old. If we have to engage in name-calling, there are much more interesting ways of doing so. . .
They have bashed up and mugged a lot of Indians in Sydney just because they are smaller (than lebs) and easier to beat. I have never seen lebs cause problems when they are on their own, but get 2 or 3 of them in one place and they just get violent towards everybody and anybody. I had 2 friends who got bashed badly by lebs, one had his hand fractured the other his skull. Sydney has a bigger lebo problem than Melbourne.
Sikhs are doing fine in the UK. Some of the most recent stats I saw showed that Sikhs have the highest rate of home ownership and one of the highest proportions of female workers in the country. In fact on the whole they are doing better than the average white people. It’s called the immigrant trajectory from blue collar to white collar work over generations. Something most American Indians born with a silver spoon in their mouth, part of one of the most wealthy and priveliged groups of immigrants in history, don’t understand. They think Apu from the Simpsons is a form of racist oppression of them, because he’s working class, and don’t really understand struggle.
What are “lebs”?
That’s way, way too simplistic considering the UK has transitioned into a complete service sector economy and that most of the manufacturing jobs that absorbed the 1960’s immigrants no longer exist, for Sikhs, Muslims, Anglos or any other ethnic group.
Lebanese, an umbrella term that includes Arabs, Armenians, Palestians, Syrians, French, Greeks, Turks, Druze, etc. Reflects the diversity found in Lebanon. Often used as a slur.
this is to GB
Calling me a racist based upon two alternate spelling of muslims???? I have seen some silliness on part of people, but this one ranks right up there. Hindus, muslims, and sikhs from India, Bangladesh, and Pakistan are considered of the same race (e.g. My ancestors are from Pakistan, but I am not a muslim..however I am the same race as Pakistanis). If you read my post I pointed out that there are regional differences among communities and how their members succeed in various occupations. In my own family, no one has been remotely succesful as a businessman, and most choose to go into farming, armed forces, or perhaps government jobs. I am sure there are desi communities that are not involved too much in farming (Parsees for example…I shudder to use Parsis…cuz now I will be considered a racist). I referenced statistics available at Arthur’s Hu. Referencing statistics makes you a racist now. I have come across some kooks…but you need help dude.
Ruby, I don’t think that’s why people find Apu offensive. It is because he is lampooned and caricatured, not because everyone wants to disassociate with working class desis. I know there’s a huge class divide in the U.S. diaspora, but I don’t think it’s fair to reduce it to this.
At any rate, ST, Sikhs were one of the largest (initial) migrant groups to the UK, in part because of their military service, and in part because of Partition. Up until the mid- to late-1970s, most desis who immigrated had to hold at least a college degree if not a professional degree, unless they were someone’s wife. Where you see the big gap in those immigration cohorts is between initial emigres and then those who immigrated through family reunification. I have no idea if this has changed in the 1980s/90s cohort, but I suspect it has a bit.
“You can see loads of idling bangladeshi youth hanging around in Bricklane, Whitechapel and other areas. “
How do you know if they were working all night or not? they may have worked in restaurants or driven cabs. This snobbery and elitism of the ‘professionals’ from canary wharf to their neighbours in Whitechapel is just offensive.
There are many successful Bangladeshi’s doing pretty well in the uk and i know some personally.
Some of these ‘Indian’ professional you mention may just be Bengali/Bangladeshi if you took the time to find out.
Actually the umbrella term you are referring to is ‘Wogs’, it includes all the above mentioned plus Portuguese, Maltese, Sicilians. It excludes the French though who are considered “Skips” along with people of Anglo-Celtic, Nordic and Germanic origin.
There was an Australian movie called “Wog-boy” – bloody hilarious. Essentially anyone with mediterranean features is a “wog” except for ‘Lebs’ who are anyone with middle eastern features (includes the Scythians)
Samir – I agree with you that Lebs in Sydney often tend to create trouble. Maybe coz the lebs in melbourne are mostly Christian whilst the ones in Sydney are mostly Muslim (or maybe Moslem). “Angry young men” – wonder what they are so angry about anyways?
GB:
Why is that?
Using the word ‘moslem’ is almost like saying ‘hindoo’. Just outdated spellings which seem somehow pejorative. It’s a subtle thing. Or maybe in the case of ‘moslem’ it’s because it’s a European distortion of an Arabic word – ‘muslim’. Vic may have been unaware of the connotations, but when some people use ‘moslem’ I suppose it’s intended to convey an extra little bit of contempt.
Moslem is an archaic spelling. Same with Hindoo. Its stems from the English way of using double-o instead of u. Instances Poona now Pune, Coorla which is now Kurla (in mumbai) and many other instances where they use double -o
Vic @ #61; man you need to improve your reading-comprehension skills!!!! You said:
While I said:
Furthermore, you said:
While I merely said:
By which I meant that, whether you were referencing Arthur Hu’s statistics or his inferences, a) The mere fact Arthur Hu is very selective about what statistics he puts on his website; and b) The mere fact that you claim to hang out at Arthur Hu’s site; raises the valid suspicion about what your biases are. I was just pointing out how not to compromise your own point. So, I personally don’t care whether you are a racist/regionalist/whatever. My main gripe in #55 is with your rhetorical and forensic style, which is awful. The reason I used words like “cocksure” was to stress that to call a professional a hypocrite and to base such accusations on slapdash reading-comprehension skills is not very grown-up.
Oh, and yes, it is you who may need a little help (and not I). I shall be quite specific: help’s needed in the area of reading comprehension.
To Manju @ #66
I am not sure of the reason. I was stating a correlation; whether there is causation, and what its reasons might be, I can only guess. My guess is similar to Amitabh’s explanation (# 67). The usage “Moslem” is a distortion of an Arabic word and, in the Europe of the early-modern era, became a term of art to refer to all Islamic adversaries from the Middle-East. The word (like the erstwhile pejorative “Turk”) wilfully disregarded national origins, and had a mild clash-of-civilizations flavour to it. This might be the reason why so many Islamophobes prefer to use the spelling “Moslem”.
there always were and always will be angry young men. what’s more, there is nothing wrong with young men being passionate.
blame instead the external cultural cues which channel this into destructive modes. Part of the problem is the over-whelming sanctity which well-meaning people accord to culture and religion. The space of criticism as a result is occupied by bigots and hate-mongerers. This leads to vicious cycles and perpetuates miseries.
To GB:
No you didn’t call me a racist, but explained why others may think so…and then wrote on my using two alternate spelling of muslims.
Which is exactly what Camille wanted to call me but used the word racist/bigoted instead. Then you criticized me because I referenced statistics on linked on Arthur’s Hu site. All his site does is reference other links, and he is a good source for links on asian based statistics. Its again a sign of mental laziness in dismissing any argument based on where the link for statistics is located. This is just a different type of intolerance …shout racism/Islamophobe at top of your lungs at anyone that might not agree with you. A bigot is defined as someone with a narrow point of view, who is intolerant of others. It seems you fit the bill. You throw around the word “racism/islamophobe” so much that it actually cheapens the word. You do tremendous disservice to the actual victims of racism.
Continued…
To summarize the whole argument here:
Original article – Study shows gap in achievement levels different group from the subcontinent in GB. Hindus do above average and Islamic people below average.
Vic: – It seems that similar achievement gap in the US based on statistics which are linked on Arthur Hu website
GB/Camille: You are a racist/Islamicphobe/bigot because you used two different spellings for muslim…plus since you are on Arthur Hu site, you are discredited.
interestingly, many turkish people themselves use the word. this could be because of a general european-isation of turkey, the secular-religious tension that exists in turkey regarding islam, or simply socio-economics. it could also be that this is a general turkish modification of an arabic word.
ok… enough with the “he’s racist / she’s racist”… closing down this thread….