…on behalf of three misguided hecklers (thanks, Anonymous). I guess I wasn’t the only Christian who was saddened by the actions of a few fringe-dwellers. See? Team Jesus isn’t totally teh suck. 🙂
Zed told rediff.com from his home in Reno, Nevada, “I’ve received nearly 100 e-mails — and most of them from total strangers and I don’t know how they got my e-mail address — apologising for the disruption of my prayer by some of these Christian fundamentalists.”
He said many of these e-mails had said, “I am also a Christian but I don’t appreciate what happened with those people protesting, and I apologise for their misguided actions.“
“They also congratulated me for my prayer and for being the first Hindu chaplain to open a US Senate session,” he said.
He said that he had also received some e-mails from some Congressional aides who had also apologised for the disruption by these persons purporting to be from a group calling themselves Operation Save America, a Christian right-wing organisation.
What’s more wicked: intolerance or humbly offering a prayer?
The protestors shouted from the gallery, among other things, ‘Lord Jesus, forgive us father for allowing a prayer of the wicked, which is an abomination in your sight.’
They should ask for forgiveness for being obnoxious.
Zed said he had not received a single hate mail “or any kind of nasty mail at all. I have not got any negative mail or correspondence.”
So, goodness prevailed. More goodness? Recognizing that Hindus are just as American as anyone else and deserve to be treated as such. As long as prayers do open the Senate, they should be inclusive, to accurately reflect the various faiths that a Senator’s constituents practice. It’s only polite. And right:
Meanwhile, the Interfaith Conference of Metropolitan Washington, DC, wrote letters to Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid, Nevada Democrat, who facilitated Zed’s prayer in the Senate, and to the Senate Chaplain Barry C Black congratulating them for facilitating the first Hindu prayer in the Senate and bemoaning the unfortunate incident of the protest by the members of the Christian right-wing outfit…
“We are writing to express how much we deeply appreciate your efforts to insure that the tradition of opening Senate sessions with prayer remains a process that not only accurately reflects the diversity of our great country, but which celebrates that religious diversity as one of our greatest strengths.”
I eagerly await irrational and inapposite comments which ask, “But…where are the apologetic emails to Graham Staines’ loved ones from Hindus, who should be collectively responsible for his brutal murder? Huh??” Oh, wait…I don’t. Such comments are not germane (or logical for that matter).
Similarly, Christians aren’t collectively to blame for the rude, disrespectful outburst which interrupted Zed, but that doesn’t mean we can’t express our sorrow and disagreement with such behavior. All that is necessary for the triumph of fundamentalism is that good people do nothing. Whatsoever we sow, we shall also reap. If we sow intolerance and disrespect, what else are we going to be shown by others? And would we deserve anything else?
Right on, Anna. I am ashamed of the disrespect that people of my own faith showed to others. It just goes to show once again that Christians need grace just as much as everyone else, and it’s important not to forget that. Just as I don’t hold Hinduism or my Hindu friends responsible for Graham Staines or my Muslim friends for all those nuns in Pakistan a few summers ago, I hope that my Hindu brothers and sisters will recognize my sadness at this whole incident and not hold all Christians–much less Christianity–to blame.
p.s. There should be no prayer in the Senate, anyway :p
Ha! Kneel before Zed!
“All that is necessary for the triumph of fundamentalism is that good people do nothing.” In total agreement with you, Anna, on this point. And it applies very nicely to the South Asian community in Vancouver. Sadly, there have been several episodes of violence against South Asian women by their husbands and families in the last couple years. Most of the ethnic media (which I work in) spends more time editorializing and complaining about the fact that the mainstream media only focuses on the violent aspects of the South Asian community. This is a very legitimate arguement…but ultimately they are doing their own community a disservice by constantly butting heads with the mainstream. If the ethnic media halved the amount of time they spent bitching about the ‘white’ people out the get them, and focused on getting to the cultural root of the violence against SA women, on giving these women a voice, and on undercutting the mysogyny that the violence stems from, I think we’d be in a much more empowered place. Cultural and ethnic fundamentalism though is what causes our ethnic media in Vancouver to turn a blind eye to our own cultural imperfections and blame the majority. In my mind, if you really love something – be it a culture or a religion – you do whatever you can to rid it of the scourge of fundamentalism and intolerance, to heal it and make it whole and beautiful again.
Big up to the tolerant Christians.
What kind of a name is “Zed” anyway? or it supposed to be “Jhed” as they say in Bihar and UP?
Who you calling bro, MF? (Imagine a crazy scowl on my face)……
What?
Has he checked his spam folder yet?
Actually, in the couple of days after the incident, I received mails from a couple of on-campus non-desi student organizations who were planning to email congressmen etc to condemn the intolerance shown by those protesters. It was definitely very heartening!
I want to open my browser some day and read a news article that so-and-so chaplain/priest/swami/mulla was invited to pray on the senate floor and refused by saying religion has no business in that room.
If there will be prayer on the senate floor, I want one day a month set aside for no prayer to reflect us atheist americans.
They are more likely to have a Wiccan moon dance during their next all-night publicity stunt, er, debate.
Anna,
Your writing on this reminded me of the day the Babri masjid fell. That was the first time in my life that I was ashamed of being Hindu and totally saddened at the hijacking of my religion by the lunatic fringe. The second time I felt uncomfortable about my religion was the Staines incident.Till that point of time I thought that being Hindu meant being tolerant.
Fundies of every perusasion- Muslim/Xtian/Jeiwsh/Hindu etc etc – make life difficult for the majority of their own community .Its sad that the fundies are the most vocal and get the most press and are seen as representative of the religion itself instead of as the pathetic, cowardly and evil folks that they are.
SkepMod and other atheists,
I think being atheist is way better than being a religious fundamentalist anyday. I myself am not an atheist but agree that a “no prayer” day is a fine idea in the senate,
in a country where the PM is a sikh, president a Muslim, ruling party president a Christian women, army chief of staff a sikh , chief justice a dalit ,we can confidently say more than a simple majority of people are tolerant.
The problem comes when some Christian organisations target vulnerable communities and do conversions and false propaganda by offering material benefits etc (like recent incidents on the hills of Balaji temple etc) , i am against conversions but I totally condemn any violence in this regard.
Now wait a sec? Whats wrong with offering a little trade-off between the spiritual and material? Many of my beef-eating, balaji-worshipping friends have done it. No different from the accosting-hare-krishnas. They are free to offer Christ and a free college eduction, and you are free to call them idiots.
they should bring zed back to the hill so that he can lead the prayer without any morons this time.
however, like others, i don’t really see the reason for govt sanctioned prayer before each session
As long as the majority in any religion controls the crazy lunatic fringe I say the religion is functioning within bounds. It is when the loonies are in charge and the majority does not rein them in either because they are scared or they do not care that trouble starts brewing. Thankfully I have seen a really large vociferous group that stands up everytime the fringe Hindu attempts to say or do something asinine.
accepting the existance of something without any proof seems like the equivalent of saying a green man or the tooth fairy is standing in front of me when there is none there. i think thats pretty loony. i think a religion by definition is not functioning. not sure whats so functional about baseless faith. but….as long as people dont bother me with this stuff, its all fine by me. why do we have prayer in the government anyways?
I agree with the first part of your comment.
Why is that anyone’s problem, assuming you are not the one ‘targeted’?
Why are some communities vulnerable in the first place?
material benefits? i think you are using the term rather loosely here.
i am personally an aetheist with certian cultural roots (just as an aetheist Jew uses such a label to describe some cultural/ethnic affiliations) but I do not feel threatened, violated, insulted or exasperated when whole sections of people convert for political, economic and social or purely religious reasons to Christianity, Buddhism or Islam or any organized religion that promises their children a way out of the lives and mindsets they were born into.
P.S. to my above post:
And I think even well-meaning, non-violent people should stay away from giving their ‘concerned’ opinions on conversions.
Runa,
What about demands that the Senate bow before the Ori and submit to the Book of Origin? How about following the commandments from the Cylons’ One True God? I think the Senate would pray to the Ori and the Cylon God before they entertain this strange religion called ‘atheism’ — which is anyways merely a right-wing fundamentalist spin-off from agnosticism seeking to cash in the lucrative conversion from cheap $1.50 tie-dye t-shirt hippies to $12,000 armani-suit-wearing atheists. Personally, I want to see the senate honor the flying spaghetti monster — who, if you don’t know, is your key to salvation if you wish not to be eternally damned in boiling marinara sauce.
I would love to dress up like a pirate and stand in front of the senate.
SST:
There was an FSM ref in the initial post about this story.
the beautiful thing is that any crackpot theory about the creation of the universe is as valid in societies eyes as our best physical understanding…seems messed up.
I personally do not think all Christians owe an apology. I think a condemnation of the three morons is good enough by any sane human being. I am sure it makes Zed feel good. But I personally think the only people who should apologize are those who mde those comments and the organizations that incited them.
The “wrongness” is in the power-differrential between the missionary and the convert. The wrongness is in the lack of choices available to the convert. Your balaji-worshipping friends have probably started eating beef despite having other choices. Hare Krishnas do not entice converts by waving money in front of them. The farmer is often left with 2 choices, convert to Christianity and get a chance to have his kid educated; or go to sleep hungry. That is not a meaningful choice.
Although, the missionaries haven’t created the dearth of choices available to the farmer, they take advantage of it. A Christian would spend his efforts changing the system so that the farmer has more choices available to him(and there are many Christians who do that), and then will allow the farmer to choose his own spirituality.
Anna,
I’m not as inclusive as you are but even I was disappointed at the display of intolerance shown in the Senate. I was actually embarrassed to watch what was happening as the poor guy tried to do his prayer. I won’t go as far as you on who salvation is available to but I don’t see a problem with a Hindu prayer in the Senate. Those Christians should be more outraged of some of the “abominations” that pass as law in those chambers.
Anil Rao:” in a country where the PM is a sikh, president a Muslim, ruling party president a Christian women, army chief of staff a sikh , chief justice a dalit ,we can confidently say more than a simple majority of people are tolerant.”
I say ::::Tolerance is not enough. The majority, whatever that may be must play an active role in safeguarding mutual liberties.
“The problem comes when some Christian organisations target vulnerable communities and do conversions and false propaganda by offering material benefits etc (like recent incidents on the hills of Balaji temple etc) , i am against conversions but I totally condemn any violence in this regard.”
My right to convert is my constitutional right. How does it affect you if someone else converts? By denying them the right to convert you are robbing them of their fundamental human rights. My own tambramness wont let me turn mormon but I wont stop none from following what they like.
I always found Christianity and Islam to be busybody religions with a very negative view of other religions. Hinduism has its problem when it comes to treating its own adherants which makes their lower classes a rich target for religious conversions. If loons like the RSS and Shiv Sena people spent more energy fighting caste related problems and poverty rather than protesting over a fucking kiss, maybe Dalits and others won’t even be an easy target for conversions. I have noticed some of my relatives become more religious and less progressive than my grandfather’s generation. Talk about generational regression.
I have no respect for Christian organizations that use money to convert poor people in India and are so obssessed with increasing numbers and are so outraged by “pagan” religions and idol worship. What is so offensive about idol worship to many Christians and Muslims? Or even polytheism? But then again, one must ask why Hindus are not doing enough to mke the poor people happy enough that they should not be converting just for material benefit. Some people take the bait easier because upper class Hindus have not given them any reason to stay Hindu. In the big scheme of things, it is better for a poor family to take money and convert rather than live in misery without converting. People who are outraged by such stuff should do something helpful to counter it.
But let’s not whitewash one thing. There are quite a few Christians who dont condone the distrurbance who believe agnostics like me or practicing Hindus like my relatives are going to hell. I would rather see an open display of such ignorance so I can laugh at it.
So I don’t really want to talk about India and Indian religious politics on this thread, but I do agree with Pravin — I don’t think that Christian organizations need to feel obliged to apologize for the actions of a handful of jerks. I appreciate their apology, but I think a condemnation and statement of sympathy is more than enough. I do think this is a great reminder, though, that there are plenty of non-evangelizing, open-minded, interfaith-oriented Christian organizations, congregations, and denominations out there.
Re: Pagla’s response about trading the material for the spiritual… I totally agree. I have tremendous respect for the good works that faith organizations do, but I have seen horrific and completely amoral things happen as well. I can’t help but remember during the tsunami aftermath, a few Christian organizations offering “services” to refugees (i.e. food, rescue) refused to do so until the refugees converted. Or in Indonesia, the mass conversion of Muslim children to Christianity before they would be fed. I was horrified. If this is the “missionary spirit” that some denominations believe in, then I am overwhelmed in my sense of disgust.
I like your comment, Anna. Is there any way to put the punch line AFTER the set-up? It would be more effective.
29: Is this the MD of old or a new Md?
It is a different or “new” Md; it is not MD.
Here is where some folks suffer a double standard. Why is religious conversion considered worse than other choices? For example, would it be so abhorable to you if someone offered a poor farmer “two bushels of rice in exchange for each month’s military service” or “come be my domestic help, and I will feed you”?
The converter needs something – another notch on his evangelical pew, if you will; and the poor hindu farmer needs something – food to eat.
Despite having argued for the right to convert, I understand your articulation of the power differential between missionary and the vulnerable, be they sweepers, toilet cleaners, leather workers or the slightly more respected group of farmers. But I still see it as an effort at taking some amount of power back into their own hands as opposed to giving it away 100% to their hisotric oppressors.
A better, more visual (although repugnant and troubling) example of the symbiotic exchange of power between the converted and the converter is in the article link posted by louiecypher on the Laramie Redux thread. In the early 90s, just after the fall of the Soviet Union, American Baptist missionaries, Pentecostal missionaries and others poured into the free-for-all environment, tapped into the economic and cultural vacuum left by the fall, and preached and screached to the people by the thousands (the ones who didn’t quickly seize the opportunity to emigrate to Israel, Germany, Canada or US). Russian Orthodox church was either not prepared or was not initially concerned. I remember Dynamo Stadium in Kiev being filled with tens of thousands of people, mostly young, and the rich American missionary families standing apart from the rest of the crowd in every which way possible–clothes, shoes, strollers, big apartments downtown, Mary Kay cosmetics, dollar-shop groceries–every which way possible, you name it. Even their sweat smelled better… Now 10 to 15 years later, I read an article that claims that the missionaries were instrumental in helping at least some of those who converted en masse those days to immigrate into the US, and these ‘newcomers’ are intrumental in fightign their anti-gay crusades. Coincidence? Well-planned organization? Conspiracy? Or mere conspiracy theory on my part?
Anyway, my point is when we use phrasess like ‘enticed with material things’ they are more appropriate for say, the Russians/Soviets. For the average low-caste Indian who finds a need to convert, it is not just consumer goods or a better lifestyle, but it is truly a shot at a life with dignity. Who are we to judge that?
Time to add some nuance to my point.
Yes, there is a time and a place for evangelism. These examples are deplorable. In such situations, asking for anything in return for food/rescue would be deplorable, much less conversion.
I was talking about situations where the need is not quite that desperate and the effort to evangelize is not quite so exploitative.
I do not feel threatened, violated, insulted or exasperated when whole sections of people convert for political, economic and social or purely religious reasons to Christianity, Buddhism or Islam or any organized religion that promises their children a way out of the lives and mindsets they were born into.
I mentioned the first part to show the religious fabric of Indian ruling class and it’s a reflection of the peaceful and tolerant society in general. I don’t know in how many countries that type of combination is possible.
Its not the question of being threatened, it’s a question of maintaining peace harmony in a soceity,
I don’t have a problem with the religious conversions which are genuine. But I believe a lot of religious conversions in India are by fraud or coercion and can be treated as religious violance. It is violence and it breeds violence.Like the incident i mentioned on the hills of Balaji temple and ultimatly it became a big political issue and let to religious unrest.this is unessasy and should be avaoided.
And who told you that these ’whole section’ of people are converting because they believe in ‘organized’ religion and what mindsets you are talking about?
malathi on July 19, 2007 03:05 PM · Direct link P.S. to my above post:
And I think even well-meaning, non-violent people should stay away from giving their ‘concerned’ opinions on conversions.
i am tolerant and concerned but i did’n say i am not religious.only difference is i don’t roam around with lables like i am ‘aetheist’ or ‘religious’.
Whose peace? Whose harmony?
SST, Sure. But I do not agree with what you said about atheism For me tolerance is allowing everyone to beleive in what they want.Atheists are free to beleive there is no God as long as they do not mock the beleifs of those who do. ( Puli : I’m lookin’ at you !)
Tolerance cannot merely be founded in coexistence. If we are making claims to Truth, then our tolerance must be founded in intellectual solidarity. We who believe in ideas and philosophies have a responsibility to those ideas, to ourselves, and to others to engage people who think differently. As long as we approach those engagements with an open, respectful mind and as long as those different from us do too–that is, as long as everyone commits to changing their vision of Truth if/when they are convinced otherwise–everyone comes out of the situation better.
As for missionaries giving food and such, I just think that by and large–note that I say “by and large” here–most missionaries are not withholding food from people who refuse to convert. Until someone can show me statistics from a reputable organization that the contrary is the predominant circumstance, I cannot assume otherwise. These people have needs that are not being met, and I would say that food is not necessarily the foremost amongst them. There is a deeper, more gnawing problem that these people face, and that is a system that ignores and marginalizes them. While there are of course misguided individuals who betray this mission, I believe that the Gospel is an empowering message, one that in its most basic form subverts man-made political structures and turns what we believe about power on its head. The missionaries who go about things the right way are testifying to a god who understands and empathizes with the weak–indeed, he is a god who made himself weak to create a more lasting strength. So these missionaries are trying to fulfill more than one need at a time–food, education, and spiritual empowerment.
At least that is my take on it. I of course grant you that religion has been manipulated as a tool by Empire (both national empires as well as religious empires), but I don’t necessarily think that that can be held against the faith at its roots. These are people trying to spread an idea, so when we talk about “conversion” we shouldn’t look at it any differently than we look at some kind of a grassroots or populist movement that convinces people of a new idea–in this case, that there is a god who redeems us and who believes firmly in humbling the strong and honoring the weak.
Unfortunately sometimes the worst of us serve as the best examples. Fanatics are fanatics, no matter what religion they represent, and they are difficult to reason with, which for better or worse was illustrated by Saladin in Ridley Scott’s Kingdom of Heaven.
I don’t know about Zed’s plans for 2008 but apparently Zod is running in 2008
Clarification – the Kingdom of Heaven reference with regards to fantatics was during one of the deleted seens in where Saladin remarks about reasoning with the Templar Knights after their capture during the Battle of Hattin not Saladin.
Samir, That is an interesting thought. I personally do not subscribe to it when it comes to religious beliefs. If someone asks me to engage in a discussion with them on what my belief system is – I would participate. But I do not agree to the idea that I have some kind of responsibility to “save” the non-believers and so- unbidden- pounce upon the unsuspecting masses and begin to try and change their minds. I am sure atheists – for example- have chosen atheism because their unique experiences have given rise to their belief that there is no creator. How can I challenge that experience? I would definitely not like to have an atheist try and convince me that my belief is wrong – because my faith is born out of what I have experienced in my life. I would not expect anyone to understand it or subscribe to it because religon to me is so personal.
Any mission to “convert” is by definition obnoxious and smacks of arrogance. It would be perfectly reasonable if the mission is to explain and propagate about one’s own religion/ideology/whatever..
It’d be a big surprise if people are NOT offended by such activities!
I dunno. I bet the westboro baptist crowd are a couple chromosomes short of being able to figure out the internet–that might explain it.
Samir, you are comparing apples with oranges here – unfortunate aspects of the existing societal system which is associated with Hinduism against the basic message of Christianity (“the faith at its roots”).
Most or all religions, in their ideal, philosophical form, are beautiful and uplifting. All religions, as they play out in society, have ugly aspects. It would make more sense for you to compare the philosophies of Hinduism and Christianity, or the societies associated with Hinduism vs. Christianity (although looking at history there is not a lot to choose, if anything, between such societies).
If the missionaries really are attracting people with the root ideals of Christianity, that says nothing about how the converts’ existences will actually play out in human society. Could just as well attract these people with root ideals of Hindu philosophy, with the same effect or lack thereof.
Finally, a “grassroots” movement comes from the people themselves, not from outsiders (of any religious persuasion) who are trying to spread their ideas among the people – with the added attraction of food.
(However, I have nothing to say against the fact that these people are ultimately getting help with food and education.)
Clarification/correction: The American in my sentence above refers to the national affiliation, NOT name of the church, i.e., not the American Baptist church. I meant the Southern Baptists. American Baptists and Southern Baptists represent two different establishments.
Jujung, I am an indiviudal who is truly NOT offended by conversion attempts–irritated sometimes, yes, but not offended. As an aetheist–yes, Mr. Rao, I like my labels and identities–I find that everybody tries to ‘convert’ me at some level or the other: not just Christians or Muslims, but also Hindus, Deepak Chopras and those who believe in the power of prayers, etc. So I believe most attempts to convert are actually peaceful and not violent and not acts of bribery. However, it is mostly the latter that hit the headlines and news.
malathi, I should have probably said – “offended/irritated”.. offended – if you don’t know much about the converter’s system and feel defensive of your own (mostly the case in India) irritated – if you knew where the converter is coming from and feel confident about your own ideas/beliefs
And on another note, three guys shouting against another guy wherever that might be, is I think, a non-issue!
I think a few hundred other comments disagree with you.
Malathi: I find that everybody tries to ‘convert’ me at some level or the other: not just Christians or Muslims, but also Hindus, Deepak Chopras
Hindus trying to convert you? to what? hinduism? Going by your name I assume you are a hindu although you don’t wish to be called one and if they are trying to convert you to hinduism, be wary of them…..coz there is no such thing in MY religion. And how many deepak chopra followers have come to you asking you to believe in his power of prayers?
M: So I believe most attempts to convert are actually peaceful and not violent and not acts of bribery. However, it is mostly the latter that hit the headlines and news.
Obviously, If someone is voluntarily by his own free will converting to another religion…..who cares? right? we want to know only if its done forcibly.
This person is far too calm.