I’m swamped at work, but I’m also outraged, because of Fuerza Dulce’s latest submission to our news tab– I can’t let this go. CNN may be a bunch of assholes with sensationalism on their minds, but their story and this one are essentially about the same thing; we do not value the lives of women. Via the BBC:
A two-day-old baby girl in India has survived after being buried alive in a field by her maternal grandfather in the south of the country. The baby, who had apparently never been fed, was discovered by a farmer near a village some 150km south of Hyderabad.
He said he only spotted her because her tiny hand was sticking out of the soil.
Police say they have arrested the baby’s grandfather, 52-year-old Abdul Rahman, after he confessed to trying to kill the newborn by burying her alive.
“I am yet to marry off four daughters and cannot take responsibility for a fifth one, even when she is only a granddaughter,” Mr Rahman was quoted as telling police.
The article went on to state that he may have taken his grandchild without his dauther’s consent. His unnamed grandchild. Whom he buried. Alive.
I am so livid, I can barely type. Because of this immutable fact, I will warn you that I will shut this thread down if:
- If “Maximum City” gets mentioned. I beg you, this is not the place.
- I get asked, “why didn’t you post about immigration/terrorism/the story I sent in four times, instead of this predictable infanticide story?”
- If one of you says this makes us look bad.
I really don’t care if all of the above makes me a pain in your ass or if it proves that the trolls are right and I am a bitch, after all. This doesn’t make us look bad, this IS bad.
A baby. Buried alive. Yes, it’s happened for centuries, but that doesn’t mean that reading such a story five minutes ago didn’t send a searing dagger in to my heart. We each blog about whatever moves us; there are no assignments in the bunker, no requirements or expectations. This moved me to despair. There will never be a point when we bless someone by saying, “May you be the mother of a hundred daughters“, and we are lesser for it.
A N N A,
Men and boys have been killed and murdered in homes, gangs, battlefields, schools, and elsewhere every day. for CENTURIES. That doesn’t make it a gender issue. The world is cruel to everyone, not just girls and women.
You’re using these examples to whip up a frenzy that is ignores the rest of reality. That reality mistreats everyone equally, not just women. Ask the men who are sent to the battlefronts to fight. Ask the innocents put in prison.
You get emotional and lose sight of perspective. you seem to be obsessed by women’s causes. IMHO, you seem to have become a radical feminist.
I once before posted links to the Indian govt’s domestic violence survey form that showed that the survey was biased to elicit only one-sided information. Abhi corrected the blog based on it. I wish you would go research it too. If true statistics are brought out, the problem will be correctly seen as a social issue, not a gender issue.
If it makes me a “radical feminist” to point out the egregious discrepancy between
…and a baby being buried alive, then so be it. IT IS NOT THE SAME THING. Not even close. In the examples you cited, the humans in each case could possibly defend themselves…this two-day old, unfed, unnamed BABY could not.
Right and because I posted this, I’m somehow denying that. YOU come on.
“Feminism is the radical notion that women are human beings.”
FYI- my DAD was a feminist, too. Now he was rad(ical).
In general, things are very different in Western Europe. It would be different if South Asia was a hopeless basket-case; but I think its reasonable to attempt to make South Asia more like Western Europe on many parameters. This is probably an unspoken goal of the India Rising sloganeering. Undeniably South Asians, strikingly in the case of Punjab, are immigrating to Western Europe and the anglosphere. I guess I made this same point above, but I agree here; clearly Western/Northern Europe are different, in a lot of ways better is probably the more apposite word
Do you actually think this is realistic? India is NOT similar to Western Europe, you’re talking about two very different cultures as well as two regions dominated by VERY different religions. No Greek Orthodox or RC father needs a son to light his pyre. As for women having fun with living single while being on the pill, didn’t we just have a post about how these women don’t even get to rent apartments in “sophisticated” places like Bombay/Delhi easily?? For exactly that reason, i.e. there are concerns about women expressing their sexuality? Am I the only one thinking “apples and oranges” here?
Yes, and they are taking their bullshit attitudes towards their female offspring with them. See: Camille. 🙁 Whose family has been here for GENERATIONS if I’m not mistaken.
I have a modest suggestion. Since we on SM are all so enlightened and sexually liberated, let’s move up our platonic interactions to the next notch and win the demographic battle!
Yeah I think they are very different now, but make some changes and they would look a lot more similiar. Thats the point of the Southern Europe analogy. I do think its possible and a lot of what is taken as common Western European characteristics are really the characteristics of a society that works as well as Western Europe does now. Doesn’t mean that the language has to be Western European, the clothing or the food, but on a broad level, if South Asia turns into a developed OECD country, it’ll look more like an OECD country
I’m sure there’s a lot of bullshit attitudes, but not all the attitudes are bullshit. There’s a lot that’s good about punjabi culture
There is a lot that is AWESOME about Punjabi culture and especially Sikhism, which has to be one of the most enlightened faiths in the world, IMHO. If Punjabi culture weren’t so alluring, you wouldn’t have Bong and Mallu kids wistfully wishing they were Punjabi, instead. 🙂
Unfortunately, the only desi girl I’ve ever met who was DENIED the chance to go to college, b/c they thought it a waste of money, when they could marry her off instead? Punjabi. It’s sad that such a beautiful community has such a tragic proclivity to not love its daughters as much as its sons. I’m not hating on any community/region/country/faith. I’m just saying, let’s be nice to girls. It’s not a crime to be born with ovaries.
For exactly that reason, i.e. there are concerns about women expressing their sexuality? Am I the only one thinking “apples and oranges” here?
Anna I posted what I did about Greece because it really was that backwards not so long ago. The change is so marked because it was so rapid and complete.
We’re talking the whole nine yards here: honor killings, arranged marriages (my yiayia had an arranged marriage that’s two generations back — no one in Greece would think of having one now — my aunt had one too) families of 10 or so (my grandfather was 1 of 13 children — this was perfectly normal for the time) and most importantly no or little education for the woman. For my Yiayia’s generation it was normal for many woman to be illiterate (the time period I’m thinking of is just before WWII, my father was born in the 40’s, I was born in the 70’s).
Greece today is permissive, premarital sex is not particularly shameful, cohabitation perfectly normal, unmarried woman in their 30’s and 40’s normal, men and woman deciding to have no children — normal.
I liken it to very effective vaccines. The more effective a vaccine is the more likely it is to be thought of as dangerous because the disease it eradicated completely wiped away. Whatever happened in Greece in the last 60 or so years changed the face of Greece’s society. It no more resembles the country of my father’s birth than my toy poodle resembles a wolf.
So why not India?
There’s plenty of just whack attitudes out there in punjabi culture and all cultures. On some level, there probably always will be. Get the right Belgian in a conversation and they might shock any of us with outlandish ideas. Societies should be set up to work for all segments within it; getting there seems tricky. South Asian society has a number of things to take up; as a general plan, why not keep in mind the OECD countries as a really good model?
P.S. if you’re talking style points, Mallus bring it to the table any and every day. Y’all don’t have anything to worry about
The baby’s own humanity wasn’t identified. In the Grandfathers eyes, the baby wasn’t an individual human being, rather property or a liability or a problem. The question the baby defending itself is moot. While the act in and of itself is cruel and heinous, and unjustifiable what kind of life was she geared up for in the first place? Having aunties hope that she trips and falls down a big ass well? Then, being bartered off to some guy?
Deny someone the chance at education? That’s pretty bad. Deny someone the chance to join Bhangra blowout, and take hopping on one foot to the next level. That’s just plain malicious.
Something to think about for all including me:
“…The burden of dowry also has been used as justification for sex-selective abortions. In India, sex-determination clinics solicit clients with slogans like “Better 500 now than 5,000 laterâ€, where the number 500 indicates the price of a sex-determination test and the number 5,000 indicates the cost of a bride’s dowry payment. This does not explain, however, why sex ratio imbalances are high in China and South Korea, where bride price, rather than dowry, is the norm, and were the expenses of a son’s wedding may exceed that of a daughter’s several times over…” Above paragraph from: http://brokendreams.wordpress.com/tag/female-infanticide/
What are the statistics/stories on female infanticide in Arab cultures (cultures that have their own forms of sexism) where the potential bride receives gifts from the groom’s side?–I forget the name of the practice. When friends from Morocco and Algeria were describing this practice of the bride being wooed with material things, my mind understood it as a dowry in reverse, although perhaps that is not an accurate understanding.
Floridian, your post alone managed to bring hot, humbling tears to my eyes.
If Anna feels “a perfect blend of rage and sorrow”, can she explain why this incident happened even after 40 years of increasingly draconian Anti-Dowry legislations? draconian towards men, that is. By now, dowry should have been history and girls should have been free of the problem of having to be “married off”.
It’s because rage and sorrow doesn’t make for good laws, it only makes for a police state. which gives birth to even more rage and sorrow.
It’s because the legislations have been pushed by – and sometimes drafted by – hyper-frenzied feminist organizations that have little understanding or regard for the socio-economic contexts and are motivated by a hatred of men.
Also, by and large, people do love their daughters. but based on this kind of news, the law in India is getting ever more skewed, while being completely ineffective in combating the purported problem.
and “concerned souls” like Anna, who know nothing, absolutely nothing about that farmer’s family, their daily struggles, their assets and debts, their life, what they eat, drink, think… declare that a dagger sears into their heart, and that the indian govt must take stronger, tougher action on all men, so that they can stop worrying about this distressing issue and go back to planning their next party.
Anna, I’m so glad you brought up these points. Religion does have an influence on people’s attitudes towards women. Even if a single sloka cannot be remembered or repeated from any scripture to the effect of the need of a son for this, that or the other thing, still, the impressions have made their marks on the minds of the people over the centuries. My grandmother may not be able to cite any reference for the sacrifices Sita, Sati, Savitri, etc made for their husbands but it is in her consciousness and that mood is conveyed to all the girls in the family. So whether or not “putra” can be translated as “child” in a gender neutral way or not in the scriptures regarding funeral pyres, still the mood which is conveyed is that the son is needed, and that is what has been carried down for the centuries and entered the minds as impressions in the present generation.
So when these impressions are dislodged and dismantled in the minds of Indians, you will see an overall improvement in rental statistics, female birth statistics, widow remarriage statistics, etc, etc, anything that has to do with women in general
Yeah, those f-ing stupid ass punjabi goombas, they think killing a baby is nothing compared to not being able to dance. Those jigabos.
What about Tamil culture? We are CAUCASOID too!
All I declared was my sadness. This is my group blog. I get to do that.
I didn’t say anything about what the government of a country I am not a citizen of should do.
I certainly didn’t say that I hate men, so you can kill THAT fantasy. I’m not that easy to dismiss, sorry.
You’re calling ME out for knowing nothing about the farmer, but it’s okay for you to spout haterade about me, WHOM YOU DO NOT KNOW either. You, sir are a class-A hypocrite. If I bother you so much, don’t read me, but beyond that don’t put words in my mouth.
That was a class-A sexist remark, A N N A! Just because comon hates women, doesn’t mean comon can’t be a woman! I mean, COM ON!
Oh wait. I forgot. In this case railing against injustice does not help HMF and his apparent self-identification issues. So in that case, let’s just be really stereotypical.
If, on the other hand, it helps him he will forcefully combat injustice
young two day old male babies are killed because of lineage and inheritance issues. Indian history is full of stories where some young prince or other was murdered because the king’s brother was next in line. That is NOT a gender issue. This happens in ordinary homes too, not just royal families.
Your post is clearly gender specific. “we do not value the lives of women”, “May you be the mother of a hundred daughters”.
You are so right, my darling. I was scratching my head, wondering, “is this guy actually intimating that men have it BAD in India?”, when I could have been wondering, “is this guy/girl/dog actually intimating…”. After all, on the internet, no one know if you’re a dog. Or a bitch. In the case of the latter, they just assume it.
If Punjabi culture weren’t so alluring, you wouldn’t have Bong and Mallu kids wistfully wishing they were Punjabi, instead.
I haven’t experienced this attitude among Mallus
I said
sic semper tyrannis
How about changing the ending of The Vanishing from the Dutch version to the American version? Give the old bastard a scare and then bring him out of there and then put him in jail.
I’m glad. 🙂
no, I don’t hate you Anna. I’m a guy and I love women.
I just hate illogical and tangential reasoning influenced by emotions. Doesn’t matter who does it, men or women.
And don’t get down to calling me a dog. Comon!
I wasn’t. I was referencing this.
Everyone has it bad in India. you’re the only one who choose to single out the plight of women and measure it by YOUR western standards. It MUST be measured by Indian standards, i.e. the plight of Indian men, children, grandpas, grandmas, the whole society. Everyone has it bad in India, not just little girls.
comon, it’s not the same issue, and women are killed in homes, battlefields, schools every day as well. What differs is how they’re killed and who kills them/why. There is a clear societal bias.
If ANNA is a radical feminist, then I’m happy to be in her company. Her posts, especially on issues that disproportionately affect women, bring to light issues that are often ignored, marginalized, or trivialized.
Sahej, I hear you. I don’t think “macho agrarian society” is to blame in Punjab, but there is definitely something deeply dysfunctional happening. The immigration angle is interesting; to be honest, I hadn’t really thought about it before. Although, there are lots of guys in the U.S. going back to the des for brides — I wonder how that skews gender balance at the “marriagable age.” Seems like the demand for Punjabi brides is relatively high compared to the demand (in the U.S.) for ABD women. That last sentence is of course speculation and not at all based in any empirical data. Nonethless, I have a really hard time wrapping my head around 2nd/3rd gen folks who adopt the same attitudes towards son-preference.
To avoid idiocracy? 😉
I apologize, I feel like I should qualify. While my mom’s family has been in the States for generations (mostly traveling back and forth between the des and U.S./U.K. to pursue advanced degrees, with the exception of 1920-1960), they did not settle in the States until the mid-1960s along with other techie visa holders. My father was the second in his family to migrate to the U.S. (in the 70s) after his mamaji, who came in the 60s as well, I think. My dadi was crazy and probably not an accurate reflection of the rest of my family, but she was a relatively accurate representation of the other families/elders who migrated in my parents’ peer group.
Camille, no worries– I should apologize, I probably misread you somewhere. 🙂
As for your Dadi…she is an accurate representation of my friend’s family as well, and they came AFTER your parents did. They were in the UK, got here in the mid 80s. 🙁
For crap’s sake, if we can’t feel rage and sorrow about a baby being buried alive, what can we feel rage and sorrow about?
Flippant as I was earlier, comon, your logic makes as much sense as Moornam’s remark that the primary way to prevent discrimination against single women tenants is to increase legal protection for landlords. Why don’t we increase security for assassins while we are it, so they don’t feel threatened and kill important people?
I am no expert, but I’d be tremendously surprised if the primary reason that even existing legislation is not enforced is not the sexist attitudes that prevail at most levels of bureaucracy and administration. The numbers about India do not lie. The problem is far far more severe than in the West, where it still exists (Widow Power, that’s for you. Although feel free to make a gesture the world will notice when you win the lingam worship competition at the next Asian Games hosted at Vrindavan – assuming you are PG).
Also, some of the stories on this post by Camille, Cliff et. al. are quite sad, and I’ve seen varying degrees of this kind of behavior in my own extended family. Thankfully, Boy, oh, boy, am I a boy!
Oh, and Camille, thanks for the information about the books. More to read! Between this and SM, whither work?
Petra, how do you know that this is what all (or even most)people want to see happen to India? Why are you promoting this as being the best way on Earth? I find your comments arrogant. Yes I enjoy the freedoms I have here in America, including various physical relationships but you are showing no understanding of the fact that perhaps some of us admire many aspects of our culture and DON’T want to see our lands become pale imitations of western Europe. As it is already, the educated elite young generation in India is essentially composed of Americans trapped in Indian bodies.
And Sahej, you talk about the good things in Punjabi culture yet you want it to become more like Europe…the very things you appreciate will also disappear if the kinds of changes you desire, end up happening. If you don’t mind, can you tell me a few things you like about Punjabiat that you think could survive ‘western europification’?
I think this is a third rail issue, in that its really heated. I doubt there is any one answer there. probably matters what region too. part of it to me is, Americanization is a really significant thing, and, is it always resolved? most men who are american have no problem dating someone who has as much or more dating experience as them. most trapped in a time-warp ABD men would, being as they were brought up in a culture that vapor-locked in the 60-70’s of india. There’s a reason we all love Moh. Rafi and most DBD’s don’t really care that much. they moved on, we vapor-locked. So, I think part of the trend is down to, its just going to be way less confusing to marry someone from india, when its time to get married. Marriage = like our parents = easy; dating = what all my friends are doing = at times confusing
there’s probably 101 answers to this question. I don’t personally see it so much in terms of docile DBD versus independent ABD, although it does happen
C’mon, Sahej, no need to bring yo momma into this!
ANNA, same experience for my Central Valley Punjabi friends. I’m sure it happens in the Bay, also, but I definitely heard about it more often in the Bay. If not outright denied the option of a college education, then definitely limited in where they can go (i.e. you can go to school, but only some place where you have male cousins to watch your every move and where you can live at home). I have a few friends who were disowned for going to UCLA, UCB, instead of Fresno State for this reason.
I believe it’s called a “bride price.” It’s also kind of an economic transaction, if you think of it, but the difference is that the girl is seen as a high priced commodity. But a commodity, and thus subhuman, nonetheless. I don’t think infanticide is as high in Arab cultures… I think abuse is more common as a girl grows older.
Oh man, give me Punjabi gregariousness/hospitality and dancing + southie food and I would be in HEAVEN.
Unfortunately my dadi’s attitude is more common than I realized. Growing up I was pretty insulated by my family, but I realized it was like living in la la land compared to what others grew up with 🙁
Also, I think when looking at Punjab it helps to get the historic picture of gender preference. It’s weird, there have been periods of time where this was not as widespread, but there was also mass-killing of daughters during Partition and other times of war because their families didn’t want them to be raped. =/
Amitabh, the same freedoms you enjoy here in America, including those various physical relationships, would you deny them to the people of India just because you want to hold on to some dear, romanticised ideal of the “mother country”? Maybe the men and especially women of India would like to enjoy those very same freedoms without having to leave their country, like you or your parents did. Ever think about that?
Personally for me, whether or not premarital sex is acceptable or not in India would make no difference in my sex life, because I don’t go to India for sex, and if I’m determined to have it, I will have it whether or not the neighbors approve or not. Where attitudes towards sexuality do affect me though is in practical day to day living where I may not be able to rent an ideal apartment due to the fact that I’m a single woman and perhaps “suspect” in matters sexual. Or where I may have some male friends over but be given a hard time because it’s assumed we are having sex and sex is “bad”.
I think it would be great if India could just ease up and relax on it’s attitudes towards sex and sexuality in general. That does not neccessarily mean the pre-marital sex numbers will rise, but it would just create a more comfortable atmosphere and less pent-up kind of energy that you get around the subject as a single woman there.
I have no interest in having pre-marital sex in India. Yet if the attitudes around it were more chill, I would surely benefit.
correction: heard about it more often in the valley. man, I’m a lazy/incoherent typist.
I think my heart swooned a little. I looooove Mohd. Rafi, haha. I guess my point in bringing up the going back to the des-ness was that it also kind of correlates to some of the norms we keep even upon being “americanized.” Like I said, I just don’t get son-preference among the 2nd/3rd gen in the U.S. diaspora. It makes no legal (or otherwise) sense.
Even my parents, who I feel are pretty awesome/enlightened, say silly things. One day my mom said she was worried about my brother getting married (the kid is 21, bright, and totally into being a student at the moment). She was like, “Otherwise who else will provide for us when we are old?” Hello! You have two bright, educated daughters!
Rahul, no worries, it is my pleasure. I am a big fan of development lit, so I enjoy talking shop 🙂
That’s true, North Indians in general and Punjabis in particular, know how to have a good time. Unlike the average South Indian wedding which consists of stuffed-shirt Mamas and Mamis gossiping about Ambuja aunty and the next door neighbor’s daughter.
It’s either us, or the troglodytes at LGF! We have to win!
Also, Floridian, sorry if I’m embarrassing you, but Eliot AND an adopted daughter! I wish more people were like you and KNEW WHAT TIME IT IS.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, Chaudvin ka Chand is the bestest song evah!
Pardesi Gori, was your grandmother a vaishnav too?!
How about ‘Mausam Bada Beiman Hai’ and ‘Sau Saal Pahele’?
Aaj Mausum is by far my fave Mohd. Rafi. There’s something so simple and yet so beautiful in that song, and I live all the Pindi in it. I think my love (for MR), though, is directly influenced by my dad’s old Mohd. Rafi/Lata record collection. Between him and my mom it’s no wonder I love Elvis, Chuck Berry, and Led Zeppelin, also. 🙂
Well, I guess, Camille and Amitabh, you will just have to live with being wrong. Although you can console yourself with liking something in the all time top 5. As for Chuck Berry, the weird thing is that I’d first heard him just before I watched Back to the Future. I think I was the only one in my group who thought that section was funny.
Comon:
Yes, everyone “has it bad” in India.
Women just have it worse.
I can’t deny there’s a certain hypocrisy to my comments. I can’t help that because while I will certainly enjoy opportunities with women where those opportunities exist, but on a visceral level I don’t want to see India go completely the way of the West…not that I have any power over that anyway. If that makes my opinion less valuable, I guess I understand that. Change is inevitable, but we should hold on to the good things we have. And frankly, Pardesi Gori, even though I have no power over you posting here either, but your endless tirade against the mores of a country which is not your own, and that you can just turn your back on and leave at your will (and which I suggest you do), which to me comes across as an unsolicited attack on my people and my culture, is highly offensive. Just for the record.
haha. not trying to bring anyone’s momma into anything. that stuff is too serious. 🙂
Virtues, or ideals of behavior, there’s no reason to have them change; why can’t Punjabi culture not value things like being friendly, being loyal to family and friends, being true to one’s principles, the music, the food, even the language? I think there’s a lot of diaspora punjabi communities that mix things up where some of the good about punjabi culture and some of the good about their american culture mix. I think that’s much better. No doubt punjab would change, but punjab needs to change too, there’s a lot of things that can be improved there
Its all Moh. Rafi, dude was sweet. I agree with you, there’s some beliefs that don’t need to be encouraged. I think it’ll work itself out, but I see what you are saying, some of the women in certain diaspora communities, they have way too much to deal with. What is the reason? Part of it might just be no one is telling them to think differently. And part of it might be fear. In another country, just hoping their kids learn and about and follow their old customs.
I do like to revel in my lack of class, it’s true 😉 But just for that, Rahul, I will go back and look up your fave song on my iPod.
I remember being totally tickled by Chuck Berry in Back to the Future. My dad used to play him nearly every night. When my folks first bought a CD player, the first CDs my dad bought were Chuck Berry and Nusrat Fateh Ali Khan. Awww, my parents are cute. Ok, back to the topic, sorry for the diversion.
Good – glad you recognize that. In the same vein you can then “forgive” my hypocrisy for commenting on “your” country, culture, people, etc.
But really Amitabh, if you really and truly thought those things were “good”, you would hold onto them no matter where in the world you are, and act congruently. The fact that you don’t, shows what you really value, I think.
So allow your people back in India the same freedom of choice.
Maybe you’re right.
This endless criticism (and rarely any praise unless it’s for some bizarre cult) is something I think you really need to get over. India has really scarred you deeply. And it’s more the relentless and twisted attacks on traditions which are not yours that I mind, not mere ‘comments’.