I’m swamped at work, but I’m also outraged, because of Fuerza Dulce’s latest submission to our news tab– I can’t let this go. CNN may be a bunch of assholes with sensationalism on their minds, but their story and this one are essentially about the same thing; we do not value the lives of women. Via the BBC:
A two-day-old baby girl in India has survived after being buried alive in a field by her maternal grandfather in the south of the country. The baby, who had apparently never been fed, was discovered by a farmer near a village some 150km south of Hyderabad.
He said he only spotted her because her tiny hand was sticking out of the soil.
Police say they have arrested the baby’s grandfather, 52-year-old Abdul Rahman, after he confessed to trying to kill the newborn by burying her alive.
“I am yet to marry off four daughters and cannot take responsibility for a fifth one, even when she is only a granddaughter,” Mr Rahman was quoted as telling police.
The article went on to state that he may have taken his grandchild without his dauther’s consent. His unnamed grandchild. Whom he buried. Alive.
I am so livid, I can barely type. Because of this immutable fact, I will warn you that I will shut this thread down if:
- If “Maximum City” gets mentioned. I beg you, this is not the place.
- I get asked, “why didn’t you post about immigration/terrorism/the story I sent in four times, instead of this predictable infanticide story?”
- If one of you says this makes us look bad.
I really don’t care if all of the above makes me a pain in your ass or if it proves that the trolls are right and I am a bitch, after all. This doesn’t make us look bad, this IS bad.
A baby. Buried alive. Yes, it’s happened for centuries, but that doesn’t mean that reading such a story five minutes ago didn’t send a searing dagger in to my heart. We each blog about whatever moves us; there are no assignments in the bunker, no requirements or expectations. This moved me to despair. There will never be a point when we bless someone by saying, “May you be the mother of a hundred daughters“, and we are lesser for it.
This is the reason I have not been motivated to read the book so far. The only thing that seems to have come through completely unscathed through Sachs’ tenure is his supreme self-confidence (arrogance). “Why did Poland succeed? Because of me. Why then did Russia fail? Inspite of me. But hear what snake oil I now have to peddle for Africa!”
I hadn’t considered White Man’s Burden seriously, because I’d also heard that it was just a book long rant against Sachs (I exaggerate, of course), but your comment makes it seem more interesting.
Widow Power,
HUH?! Look, this grandfather is an unstable person. The fact that any newspaper or media outlet is publishing his “reasons” and trying to make him look like a victim of his culture is an absurdity — we don’t let crazy people explain themselves because their explanations are worse than worthless — they rot your brain if you listen to them try to excuse themselves of their actions. If culture were truly a problem, no Indian jury would convict him and the police wouldn’t have even arrested him if so. If the Indian jury finds him innocent, then talk about the culture being bad because the jury is populated by (presumably) normal people. Don’t try to quote an insane criminal who’ll be spending life in prison as some sort of example of normal Indian culture. Don’t try to write about him as if he’s an Indian first and other things later, he’s first and foremost an incarcerated and unstable person pending prosecution for attempted murder, that he’s Indian is irrelevant. This horrible culture you speak of arrested him, will prosecute him, and given the slow-as-molasses backlog of court cases this insane grandpa is going to rot in jail. I hate when the actions of FELONS are used to paint a picture of culture – the Indian police, the Indian jury, the Indian farmer who rescued the girl, these are all people who hate that baby-killer as much as we do, and they –not– the baby-killer awaiting sentencing are representative of Indian culture.
Widow Power,
Just to follow up – when a crime against the Indian penal code is committed, the long arm of the law does catch up, even in India. Don’t delude yourself into thinking that crimes against women and children are legal or acceptable in India. Like with an illiterate population, many people don’t know how to ask for help from the law, but don’t pretend that we blog-readers are privy to information the Indian police are unaware about. If -YOU- are aware of a specific crime in India by reading cnn or whatnot, it’s obvious that the Indian police are aware and have already investigated it and if the perpetrator is found have made the arrest. This is true with illiterates in the U.S., yes, our mighty United States, where uneducated/illiterate women, many of whom are illegal immigrants, allow their boss to sexually abuse them because they are unaware how the legal system works.
This story is not newsworthy precisely because it’s a SOLVED crime. The police apprehended the criminal, he confessed, case closed. If you want to pine over the horrors of Indian society, pick some UNSOLVED cases and try to make progress on it. It frustrates me to no end to see armchair moralists like you with 20/20 hindsight about how a crime -gasp- was committed. Can crime rates be lowered? Sure, it costs money. Can crime rates be eliminated? No. As India gets more money, it can tackle the issue of lower crime rates; for those crimes money cannot prevent, a good police force and justice system will at least hand down appropriate punishments. There ARE cases where the guilty have walked away scott free — especially regarding drunk rich kids driving over paupers in the streets of India. Focus your attention on problems that need solving, not on solved ones.
They should bury the grandfather alive VANISHING style.
Pravin,
The death penalty is allowed under by Indian courts, but the only method acceptable is hanging. That said, I don’t believe in the death penalty when incarceration accomplishes the same end-result of ‘never seeing or hearing him again’. Execution is unnecessary, and it’s non-reversible if new evidence surfaces.
To widow power,
to echo both rahul and others, this is worldwide. the constant dominance and preference for male children and the existence of a patriarchal society cannot be ignored or dismissed. (if you need a compelling “euro” culture example think of marriage for a second as something that always has been an expression of women as property given from father to man and the legal processes/descriptions used)
To those who suggested education- it works. we’re not talking about learning how to be a cpa, we’re talking about learning how to think critically about the society we live in and what it assigns worth to. its not necessarily how to learn economics but also how to think critically.
Revolution, anyone? I’m not kidding. As “commie” as this sounds, substantive shifts in how certain parts of Indian society views its girls and women can occur with mass upheaval. And you have to start with the women, with education – culturally-relevant education. I say that because many Indian women are complicit in female infanticide, although we’ll never really know for sure (because I’m guessing that many women resist against it in their own minds, but are forced into doing it by their husbands and extended family). Even still, the aunts and grandmothers are complicit in garnering a campaign in favor of aborting the female child.
In addition to education and a televised revolution, legislation has to be enacted and enforced (insert laughter here, I know). I really don’t buy the idea that laws and punishment do not deter anyone from doing what they want to do i.e. rape. Who knows how many American men, for example, do not rape women because they know there’s a real chance they’ll serve time for it? I highly doubt it is because of the cultural superiority of the American man or his deep respect for women – one look at Maxim magazine or any male-centric publication which treats women as sex objects and there’s no doubt that to many men, women are still just a piece of meat to pulverize.
It’s just really heartbreaking. It’s been a heartbreaking couple of days. Sigh.
ANNA, thanks so much for bringing this story to light, it has to be said again and again. But I am going to have to slightly disagree with you on one thing – it DOES matter if “this makes us look bad” or not. I’m so not trying to defend those knee-jerk reactions against any sort of anecdote or trend covered by the Western press which is critical of Indian society; that is chauvinistic and dismissive, to say the least.
BUT – I am in favor of a reasoned approach to highly sensitive subjects like this. Only because in the face of such severity and cruelty like this story illustrates, I’ve seen countless Western feminists slam their fists down and shriek, “This is disgusting and vile and I DON’T CARE if this makes me seem racist or intolerant, it has to stop. We have to do something about this.” I am strongly alarmed by no holds barred reactions like this because they often propose blanket solutions to very complex problems they are unknowledgeable about. A lot of these people just don’t get that you cannot combat hate with hate, that you cannot “educate” women with culturally irrelevant models, that you cannot cast all men in that (usually) developing society as a complicit sexist pig, that you cannot assume that women in developing societies will welcome you into their arms as “sisters.”
Or, in the extreme, that you cannot bomb the hell out of a society in the name of women’s liberation.
I’m not saying this to be incendiary, but it is a fact that one rationalization employed in the bombing campaign against Afghanistan a few years ago was that it would free women from the shackles of oppression. Well, it certainly was certainly “liberating” in one regard – if by liberation you mean leaving thousand of men, women and children dead.
I guess what I am getting at is the interconnectedness of media representations, public opinion and policy. One CNN article isn’t going to start a war, but these articles do affirm and re-affirm beliefs about India. And we do have to worry about how it makes us look – just look at some of the vile comments people left under the CNN article about widows.
To me, it’s about being balanced and working on multiple fronts. The state of many widows in India and of many girls and women in India – millions of them – is something we have to approach with earnestness in whatever capacity we can, being away from India. If that means contributing towards girls’ education – as small as donating money towards one school seems – I’ll do it. But, like I’ve experienced in the past, having a Western feminist scream in my ear, “Aanchal, you’re too distracted with all this media represenation bullshit – the cause of female infanticide is TOO DAMN DIRE to be nuanced. I’m disgusted!” is not productive and frankly, offensive. Because I care about women’s rights worldwide, and I care about girls and women in India, but I also care about Indians, and the men in family who treated my mother with respect and love, and the little boys in my family who will grow up learning the right things – I care about them too.
There’s no limit to compassion. I just wish some more feminists I work with would understand that bombing the heck out of Iraq is also a women’s issue, and would express the requisite amount of outrage at that too. I’m not talking about a bumper sticker; I’m talking about the same bursting blood vessels that I see when we talk about female infanticide and dowry in India. I wish I saw some of that when we discuss the raping and pillaging and outright slaughter of thousands of Iraqis. Something more than a trite, “Yeah, Bush sucks. He’s dumb.”
What was the father of the baby doing all the time? And why was the grandfather (not the parents) of the baby supposed to take care of his grand daughter? Unanswered questions…
Please !Puhleaze people all over the world .Puhleaze stop making babies if you cannot afford to give them good life. puhleaze stop cribbing about the inflation , the rising costs of insurance and similar bs that are denying your family two square meals a day. When will people understand that a tonne of contraceptives are cheaper than the smallest family.
SST, it is newsworthy. Often the news source reporting about this issue is not worthy, but this story is worth bringing to the forefront.
Bidi, I understand where you are coming from, and I’m really not trying to be a contradictory mess, but my fear with statements like this is that it conflates all instances of male preference as more similar than not. My point being, yes, patriarchy and the valuing of male lives over female ones (and maybe even male preference, I’m not educated enough on this as a global phenomenon to comment authoritavely) is a worldwide phenomenon, but female infanticide is occuring on such a large scale only in India and a few other countries. There may be a preference for males in other countries, but they are not aborting their girls at the alarming and saddening rate that India and a few other countries are.
My whole beef with this issue is how some people are reacting to this phenomenon – unnuanced, racist, monolithic statements about Indian culture which almost make male preference out to be some immutable mental characteristic, while ignoring very real factors like economics, history, etc.
Maybe in real life this will all play out in a less-than-nuanced, confrontational manner – revolutions and social movements are all about grand gestures – but that doesn’t mean the ideological underpinnings of the movement have to be steeped in blind, uncalculated rage. Rage is important in that a visceral reaction is always better than a detached one, but it cannot be the be all and end all of a movement.
i don’t think education has to do much with the issue. my husband, a MBA and NRI, won’t let me adopt a girl-child. why?? he thinks people will think we are having “problems” concieving a child. Whenever a case on infanticide comes up he comments “what the hell is wrong with parents wanting to have a boy?” no matter of explaining, facts and figures make him see the evil in it. then when we talk about rape or sexual assualt he always blames the girl “maybe she wasn’t wearing anything provocative; but the girl who walked by might be, or he might have gotten aroused by a movie” that far off movie star can be blamed for the rape but not the guy who committed it. there are lots of people around us who have such attitude. they talk about women’s liberation n all but when it comes to their own family they can’t do it. before marraige i thought no one in this century thinks in this manner. but sadly people are still stuck in the 17th century and lot more than we can ever imagine.
The dowry was a huge problem in medieval Europe as well. What’s more, lots of people knew it was a problem. Clerics railed against it, burgers complained about the burden it imposed about them, but the system was so ingrained no one was able to stop it.
In medieval Europe, infanticide, which was illegal, was accomplished by the adult rolling over the infant in the bed, which smothered it (in poor families, beds were shared). No one could prove it wasn’t an accident. Again, clerics knew what was going on, and preached against it, but the economic reality of poverty and large families kept it going.
To stop infanticide, you need to (1) end the institution of the dowry; and (2) somehow change the economic realities of the peasantry. Neither will be easy.
Rahul,
it is NOT JUST ABOUT SOCIO-ECONOMICS
You are conflating the central issue here–I agree it’s not just about economics (the Marxist–materialist view)– it is about society–don’t conflate the two–what else is there, after all… the point is about a societal practice that should be stopped–full period.
the reality of any indian family is that a boy is any day welcome more than a girl and expecting dowry is birthright. education has not and cannot guarantee a change in these mindsets.
Agree with Brij, bidi, FOBGuy, and especially thank sic semper tyrannis very much for nailing the communications problem. Widow Power, you are reacting after the fact to foreign, second-hand reporting of a crime for which the prosecution of all possible claims appears to have been completed. Besides underlining (I hope) the point so cleanly made by sic semper tyrannis, I’m extending what I said in the last thread to say a) that preferential treatment of males is not something that characterizes any particular culture, and b) the article we are discussing here seems to be part of a media campaign we glimpsed and some of us discussed in the other thread, and which is designed to prepare individual Americans to regard Indians with distrust and disgust, with encouragement from shamed American Desis, just at the moment when the two nations are preparing to alter their relationship. I don’t think the story of Jon Benet Ramsey was broadcast in India, for instance, nor that Indian or American ex-pat readers and tv audiences in India are primed to slaver over crime news about America, so the forces deployed by media engaging in this campaign are far greater and far more damaging than any possible counterpart and the outcome will therefore be unfair.
Have you come across it in USA? Canada? UK? Germany? Sweden? Switzerland? Holland? Denmark? France? Belgium? Where?
Widow Power, That’s a very small “Where?” that you cite, in terms of land mass and population both, but even so, if you look at some early literature from those countries, I’m sure you will find a preference for male children and adults embedded in those cultures too. This has to do with more easily observed and even simple forms of physical strength in every stage of male life– because men don’t bear children and become temporarily fragile and dependent as adults.
Interesting comments from Aanchal / Amrita / sic semper. Few things are more annoying than an Armchair Western feminist – many of whom have a patronizing attitude.
Floridian has put his money where his mouth is – by adopting an orphan girl child.
I wonder how many of the commenters are willing to take the pain to adopt a baby girl and raise her to be a member of the ‘model minority’. Easier to rant and rave!!
Sushmita Sen – a well known Indian actress / former Miss Universe adopted a baby girl though she was single. Good thin. Wish there were more people like her.
It’s a pre-req for whom I’ll marry, just like having a vegetarian household and no guns in the home. I’ve had more problems with getting people to agree to the latter two, not that you asked. 🙂 I’ve wanted to do this for years. Some of us are willing, don’t see it as a pain, but a blessing.
It is easier to rant and rave, but I don’t want to condemn people for at least experiencing outrage…better that than indifference. If it means calling someone out the next time some stupidity is uttered about, “Oh, it’s a girl? Too bad…” then those ranters and ravers are making a difference, too. Madguru is right, each of us can do something, right here, right now.
My mum’s cousin is now in the process of adopting her third baby girl. The first time round she caused quite a stir, though not because the baby was a girl but because apparently adopting is still a taboo in India.
What’s a ballpark figure for adopting a child from india?
Girls in Kerala somehow have it better,with Matrilineal castes where the properties are handed from Mother to daughter.I don’t have the stats,but Kerala is generally accepted to have more girls vs. Males compared to any other state.
Karthik on July 5, 2007 10:14 PM · Interestingly enough, my dad was telling me today afternoon about how in some North Eastern state, female infanticide has left people with no brides. I think you are wrong there. North Eastern states generally have a healthy female population, whereas states with more of a macho-agrarian culture like Punjab,Rajasthan,Haryana have a severe shortage of females nowadays that Haryanvis come down south to marry Kerala girls. http://www.newindpress.com/NewsItems.asp?ID=IER20070628021356&Page=R&Title=Kerala&Topic=0 There was also an expose done by an Indian TV channel recently of a ultra sound clinic in punjab which was performing abortions on female babies and throwing them into the water well in the backyard.
According to Indian tradition, a father cannot attain moksha (salvation) unless he has a son to perform his last rites…combine this with the economic pressure to limit the size of the family,female babies are generally seen as a undue burden. hence the combination of tradition constrained by economics is disastrous for female babies.
I’m the person who talked about foeticide in the U.S., but I want to reemphasize that the study was for DESI families. Some were 2nd gen, most 1st gen. I bring this up because I don’t think the same levels of gender-biased infanticide exist in the same degree in the U.S. if you take things in aggregate.
I think they’ve banned the ultrasound in Punjab (except for emergencies) to help discourage gender-based abortion. Part of me is conflicted on this, because I wonder what is worse — to have a child and kill it, or to abort it? It’s not like these same families aren’t getting rid of their girls eventually, and I’ve met so many women who are shunned or mistreated for having girls instead of boys (because of course it’s the woman’s fault that she doesn’t have a son). The stories you hear are awful — parents immunizing only one child (the male) and refusing to immunize the girl, leaving the girl-child unattended in hot cars, etc. etc. And this happens in the U.S./Canada among desi families as well.
I’m always thankful that my parents, especially my dad, wanted to have girls. I really think it changed the tone of how we were brought up. Not saying that there weren’t implicit differences (e.g. stricter curfews, etc.), but at least I didn’t feel like my parents thought I was a mistake or regret in their lives. Conversely, my dadi always told me how worthless I was from the moment she met me (at 2). As soon as my younger brother was born she used to tell me that my parents would give me away because they didn’t need girls anymore, and she was purposefully negligent when she would babysit me when I was little (like age 2-4) in the hopes that I would just “accidentally” kill myself. In retrospect it’s sickening, but the sad truth is that many of the aunties/uncles around her agreed. The only time she shut up was in front of my parents because she knew they wouldn’t put up with her sexist hatred.
I think it is hard to start with White Man’s Burden if you haven’t read through dialogue happening around aid throughout the 1990s. I think it seems extreme when read out of context — this is why I think it’s good to read Elusive Quest because it shows how Easterly has gotten to his current argument and also how he has become disillusioned. It’s true that White Man’s Burden is a counterpoint to End of Poverty, but I think it was written because Easterly was sick of the “well intentioned” mistakes happening among development economists/”experts” (of whom Sachs is one, but not the only one). By all means, read Sachs. I just found it difficult (literally) to find the content among all the self-adulation.
This really depends on which tradition you’re talking about, though. For example, in Sikhi there is no such requirement, and in fact there is a strenuous argument for gender equality. Yet Punjab has one of the highest rates of female foeticide. Clearly something is not adding up.
Again, I don’t buy the economics argument. If this were the case, there would be greater parity among which children are killed. While girls would probably still be killed more often than boys, the skew would not be so pronounced. Furthermore, families of all socioeconomic backgrounds are killing their girls. I don’t think economics is the driving factor here. I’m sure that it skews if all else is equal, but education and class really don’t seem to make as much of a difference as attitudes and norms do.
Rob, socioeconomics is a combined term because it is talking about the cultural processes, resources, etc., that come from a certain economic privilege/class background, etc. I don’t think Rahul argued that there isn’t a societal issue; he argued that class is not the driving factor in female infanticide.
.”Clerics railed against it, burgers complained about the burden it imposed about them, but the system was so ingrained no one was able to stop it.” Yeah, there were things like that going on in Europe. In most countries there were more boys than girls (beyond the normal, slight skew in favor of male births) right up until the Industrial Revolution around the middle of the 18th century. The disparity was more pronounced in well to do families than poor ones. William L. Langer, “Infanticide: A Historical Survey,” Hislory of Childhood Quarterly l(1974):353-65; “Further Notes on the History of Infanticide” History of Childhood Quarterly 2(1974): 129-134.
Pooja said:
Pooja, wow.
No offense, but how are you still married to this guy?
melbourne desi said:
I don’t understand what is so patronizing in pointing out that India is a country that conducts higher than average number of female infanticides? This is a proven fact, and one that is a shame for the country.
When I read this story–I don’t do so as a Westerner. I read it as a woman empathizing for the horrendous treatment of a baby who’s only crime was being born a female. Yes, horrible things happen to women and children in this country as well–but the grandfather (and so many others before him) have openly admitted that it was simply because of the child’s sex.
Shall we sit back and do nothing?
Yes, women’s standing is better in Kerala but still much needs to be improved. In my own family some 40 years back, my grandfather wouldn’t marry his daughters or nieces to anyone that asked for dowry…I am heartened by such things. But domestic violence is still prevalent in Kerala and women still suffer a lot from “eve teasing” and despite education, their independence is hampered still by oppressive attitudes toward women. As a Kerala women you are encouraged to become a doctor but if you walk on the beach by yourself during the day, you could still be considered loose. And like I said, domestic violence in Kerala is rampant, and unfortunately for the women, their families, out of shame, often do not help the women and feel it is still something she needs to suffer/endure to keep the family together – b/c what life will she have if she is divorced or lives without a man? And what shame she will bring on her own family?
My uncle said to me in Malayalam this interesting metaphor — I am writing the translation in English – he said, “in india women are like a leaf that falls on a thorn. Both the thorn and leaf are complicit in their connection, but only the leaf is scarred/torn. The thorn, the man, is left unashamed, unhampered, unchanged, but it’s the leaf, the women, that carries all the responsibilities and repurcussions”; Needless to say I can apply this outside of India as well.
But of course there are women and men who do not follow this mainstream interpretation of a women’s role. My younger sister, right now is in Kerala doing research on this organization —- amazing organization started by Kerala women — http://sakhikerala.org/
It is really sad. We and the rest of the world close our eyes and pretend what we don’t see does not affect us. No one is ready to face the harsh realities of life.
http://www.gendercide.org/case_infanticide.html
The truth is atrocities against women have affected us all one way or the other. My mother, for one, who suffered all her life at the hands of an insensitive husband, held on strong for her children, to keep the family together and prayed every day for a better life. She passed away a couple of years ago, God bless her soul, we are thankful for all her sacrifices and happy that she is in a happy place now. But we can never forget the circumstances she had to endure and are scarred for the rest of our lives, that is one wound which will never heal.
Cliff – thanks for sharing. I’m so sorry for your mother’s suffering. I have seen this happen to other women in my life who are close to me. I am curious – Do you have a South Asian cultural background?
Below Bidi says education would work. By that he means social awareness programs.
However, gender based issues have to do with sexuality and sex ed is not allowed in Indian schools. Indian society is in denial about alot of things. If it’s not talked about then it doesn’t happen sort of mentality. The issue of women and their place in modern Indian culture is something that I don’t think will be on the syllubus of public schools there for a long time, although it should be. So when you talk about education, first be aware of what kind of education these kids are getting, and think about how difficult it would be to introduce awareness programs on issues like these, if even basic sex ed is considered controversial.
This is the problem.
And I don’t buy that this desire for a male child is everywhere in the world. Sure, the planet is male dominated at this point in time, but this desire for male children – isn’t that mostly an eastern thing? I’ve never been exposed to that concept at all here in the West. But maybe it does exist in pockets somewhere over here as well. However, it it was so prevelant I would think I would have been exposed to it by now.
@PS-
Yes, I am a malayalee too, grew up in central India though!
It was the grandfather who killed the baby girl. He didn’t even make the baby.
Aranchal
Please! Looking at girlie mags or even porn does not mean you want to rape women. It also does not mean you do not respect women. It simply means you like to look at photos of attractive women scantily clad or nude – something alot of men do, including perhaps your closest friends and family members.
Now if you ever caught any of the above mentioned men or boys in your family looking at porn would you then assume that they do not respect women and want to rape them and the only thing preventing them from doing so is fear of law and punishment?
Respecting women does not mean you have to be some asexual prude who does not show a healthy interest in sexuality or women’s bodies.
Similarly, nobody here has yet met a blanket statement that all Indian men are sexist pigs because this grand-dad murdered his grand-baby. What we are saying is that the system needs to be changed – the system of dowry in particular because this is one of several things in India that give rise to a preference for having boys.
Shalu, there’s lots of young guys in India who think and talk like Pooja’s hubby. They’re the right-wing nutjobs of India. My lawyer over there, who is thirty, started talking one day about how girls wearing tops with no sleeves were bound to get treated disrespectfully everywhere they went. I mean – ‘no sleeves’. I think it was some kind of hint.
Pooja, why did you ever marry such a person? If my man spoke like that I would seriously consider divorce. If he does not value female life and happiness in general, how much do you really think he values you?
Dubliner: Most of the Nairs I know tell me that their families switched over to the patrilineal norm about 100 years ago. But I do agree with you that this practice may have helped give women in Kerala an early leg up that was maintained by the superior human development investments in Kerala.
Well, Indian journalists can cover whatever stories they want. If they didn’t cover the Ramsey story, it’s their choice. And I think the underlying issue here is that this wasn’t just some random crazy grand-dad who killed the baby on a fluke. It was pre-planned due to the fact that her dowry would not have been able to be met and the cost of raising a girl child whom you have to pay her future husband and his in laws to take into their home and work as a maid free of cost, was not worth the amount it would take to raise her.
So what we are examining here is the historical, cultural and societal views about females and the institution of marriage that gave rise to this incident.
Stating that someone read somewhere back in the 1800s Americans or Brits or whoever had similar views of women does not change the fact that these views are still in existence NOW in India. Like I said before, all cultures have their issues, but not all issues are the same and not all take place at the same time in history. So let’s deal with what is going on now in our lifetimes – not what went on in someone else’s previous lifetime.
My lawyer over there, who is thirty, started talking one day about how girls wearing tops with no sleeves were bound to get treated disrespectfully everywhere they went. I mean – ‘no sleeves’.
Clearly he hasn’t seen my bingo wings…
If this and some of the things other contributers here are writing about their own experiences amongst their families is not enough to convince anyone that India has overdosed on the female haterade, then I don’t know what will. It is disheartening to hear people poo poo it with “oh well, this whole world is male dominated anyway… we aren’t the only ones”. When conversing about the phenomena of seriel killers in USA, I never retort with, “oh well, people murder in India too”.
Like I said before, different cultures have different issues and all the issues are not the same.
PJ Harvey’s song is an apt title for this post, a perfect blend of rage and sorrow.
Yay, someone got it. 🙂
Couldn’t get it out of my head after reading the BBC story. 🙁
I view female choice of male partners much like a studio’s choice of greenlighting a movie. After a serious and large vetting process, studios can still put out crappy movies.
My inner asshole says that more statistics or context aren’t necessary– we’ve just spent far too long seeing women as a burden, not a blessing. And that’s not just a desi sin. 🙁
Well it’s hardly a Western European one.
I’m Greek and within 2 generations Greece went from being deeply sexist place to very European (socialist, egalitarian, etc). SO much so that I’d even go so far as to claim that the Greeks living here in the US are often more conservative than Greeks you’ll meet in Greece. So why is India the way that it is? I would expect infanticide in the poorest, least educated places not out of ignorance but out of the need to survive — girls are more expensive because of things like a dowry. But the largest sex imbalances are in the wealthiest states.
Is it the lack of family planning? Lack of female empowerment? I know in Greece when the pill hit woman went to work in large numbers and stopped getting married. They also stopped having large families — many chose not to have any children at all.
Right, because Spain, Italy, Greece…those countries aren’t macho at ALL. This is about more than the specific horror of female infanticide. This is about women being regarded as inferior/not worthy of respect and that happens everywhere, even in Western Europe.
Right, because Spain, Italy, Greece…those countries aren’t macho at ALL
With respect I strongly disagree. Birth rates are very low there because woman stopped getting married and decided living in cities was more fun than living at home with the kids. I expect the church to start failing there in the next generation.
These places were very macho at one point but really not anymore. You’re thinking Hemingway and bullfighting and Europe has moved on.
Southern Europe is nothing like it was 50 years ago, or even 20 years ago.
I think part of this is due to demographics and is thus not an equal transaction between not valuing a female child and female foeticide Punjab itself, a lot of people have been voting with their feet for decades; people continue to immigrate from there all the time. In a sense, punjabi culture has become arranged in part around immigration. This likely has profound causes, and effectsThere is something sociological going on, and I think its got to be multi-factorial. The very played out idea that its all down to some “macho agrarian” lifestyle is just, kindergarten analysis. Its as simplistic as any other pro or anti punjabi slogan. If the only response to this is simply that this is a symptom of misogyny in combination with a macho (agrarian??) culture, its not going to get solved, in my opinion.
Shalu,
It’s patronizing because prosecutors can’t do anything with your facts. If you know of a person XYZ who is willing to confess to infanticide, or you know of a place QRS with concrete evidence to prosecute person XYZ, then you’re helping the prosecutor build a case and you’re helping put dirtbags behind bars. The courts, police, prosecutors, et al. cannot do anything with numbers divined from some statistical methodology; the justice system needs specific cases and evidence. The low female:male ratio, even adjusted for Hepatitis-B induced gender imbalance as Emily Otis pointed out in an article Razib linked, is the smoking gun that infanticide is a widespread problem – but without any leads or suspects, it’s a useless smoking gun.
Abortions and Infanticide in India – 10 million aborted/killed over 20 years (countercurrents.org) AIDS in India – 11 million deaths over 20 years (social.moldova.org) Tobacco in India – 20 million deaths over 20 years (5.4 million deaths/yr globally – India constitutes more than 20%) (medindia.net) All Causes in India – 190 million deaths over 20 years (60 million deaths/yr globally, 9.5 million/yr in India) (medicine.plosjournals.org)
So clearly, abortions and infanticide are a big problem, 10 million over 20 years is a monumental tragedy. The govt. of India does treat it seriously, banning sex-determination and sex-selection (bbc.co.uk), both of which are legal in the U.S, up to the first or second trimester depending on the state. In India, the problem is not prevalent throughout the nation; it’s highly regional: “‘India is a very mixed bag,’ Eberstadt said. ‘In some parts there are no signs of any unnatural imbalances; in other parts the numbers are grotesque.'” (foxnews.com)
That’s Emily Oster, not Emily Otis.
Is macho a symptom or a cause? Maybe its both. Maybe an entire society needs rehabilitation in order to get the problem solved. Greece, while also maybe becoming less macho has also become more, I guess one could say, post-industrial; more like Western Europe. Being more like Western Europe encompasses a lot more than just being or not being macho. The pill, attitudes generally towards sex, child birth, ect.; the economy, how cities are developed, ect. Maybe in punjab and other places, a solution will come from trying to be more like Western Europe, and then the macho thing will just change like presumably in Greece. I think its somewhat startling to say, but yeah, why not be more like Western Europe. Things are pretty good all in all there. South Asians including Punjabis are flocking to Western Europe, UK, US, Australia regardless. What would be wrong in simply admitting that the home regions could stand to be more like Western Europe, so people can go ahead and have the option, and not be in some cases scrambling to leave
Pondatti, in all honesty do you think that western european attitudes towards women, marriage, single womanhood, women’s sexuality and expression are the same as India’s? I mean way down deep in your heart, where you are honest with yourself 100%, do you really think they are the same?
I’ve never been to Greece or Spain, and was only in Italy for one week, however, if even these countries have progressed so much, like Petra (who has been there) says they have from her own experience, then what to speak of Sweden, Holland, Germany, France, Belgium, Norway, England, etc, etc,. ???
I think what is being overlooked by those of you who want to retort, “it’s the same everywhere”, is that in Western Europe and North America/Canada, attitudes towards sexuality and singlehood (bacholor/bacholorette – hood), are very very very different from India’s.
This in turn would make India’s view of women and widowhood (as talked about in the other thread) very different. It would even make different the view of giving birth to a female child.
This is what I was trying to get at when I said things need to change from the ROOT. Just telling people not to kill babies is not going to do much. Or making it illegal for the doctor to tell them the gender of the child – these things can be circumvented. But if you go to the ROOT of a cultures conditionings regarding gender and sexuality, well, then that can change things over time, from the inside out, or from the root to the budding flower on the tip of the branch.
Like Petra said, many women in Greece have opted out of marriage and babymaking with the arrival of birth control methods. Marriage is no longer seen as a neccessity for a woman there, but it is in India, accompanied by a dowry and a life of service to the in-laws of which the bahu does not get paid for (especially in rural and small towns).
These are all factors behind the mindset of the grandfather who murdered his grandbaby.