When ER first came on TV, I remember thinking it looked completely unrealistic because it was too damned white. Now I finally have some numbers to back up my instincts:
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Plenty more like her |
From 1980 to 2004, the fraction of medical school graduates describing themselves as white fell from 85 percent to 64 percent. Over that same period, the percentage of Asians increased from 3 percent to 20 percent, with Indians and Chinese the two biggest ethnic groups. [Link]
S. Balasubramaniam … recently queried 50 medical schools and calculated that 12 percent of the class that entered in 2006 is of Indian heritage. The highest percentages are in California, Texas, New York, New Jersey and New England. [Link]
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p>While the article doesn’t indicate anything about Balasubramaniam’s sampling methodology, the numbers are consistent with my gut feelings about the number of brown faces I’ve seen amongst med students. When asked to explain why she went into medicine, one desi doctor said:
“We were never forced into medicine … But in the Indian community in Chicago, everyone was a professional. Everyone was a doctor or an engineer…” [Link]
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p>Although there have always been many desi doctors, the numbers of current brown medical students represent a sizeable increase over past years since roughly 5% of all doctors are of Indian origin, and many of them studied abroad:
In the US, Indians and Indian-Americans make up the largest non-Caucasian segment of the American medical community, where they account for one in every 20 practicing doctors. [Link]
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p>My thoughts at this point go off in two different directions. The first is about the clannishness of desi doctors. How many times have you heard a doctor say that nobody can understand what they go through unless they’re a doctor themselves? It’s as if they think that being a doctor is distinct from other professions, on a plane of its own, completely inaccessible to people who do other things for a living. They also love to boast about the hours they work, even though (post-residency) my doctor friends work both shorter and more predictable hours than friends who are lawyers, iBankers or programmers.
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p>I don’t understand why they feel this way though – I’ve never heard anything similar from engineers. Is it the combination of the long training and the high salaries? What’s at the root of this medical exceptionalism?
My other thought has to do with how little the multicultural nature of the medical profession is reflected on TV. ER finally has a one desi doctor. To the best of my knowledge, none of the other medical shows do (although I don’t watch much TV so please correct me if I’m wrong).
This is part of a larger problem, namely that the America you see on the small screen is significantly whiter than reality. An analysis of the 2001 Fall Season found that:
White characters received 81 percent of screen time, while non-Hispanic whites make up about 70 percent of the population. [Link]
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p>An article I once read made the case that this was driven by audiences and advertisers, namely that white Americans felt most comfortable with shows that skewed whiter than what than realistic demographics, and therefore advertisers were willing to pay more to reach them. The article below makes a similar argument, but puts the blame more squarely on advertisers:
The FCC has collected plenty of … evidence, illustrating a range of racist assumptions about non-white customers openly cited by advertisers as reasons to pay less for ads in ethnic markets, or not to buy them at all. There’s the buyer for Ivory soap who refused to purchase time on a Latino-formatted station because “Hispanics don’t bathe as frequently as non-Hispanics.” (FCC study, “When Being No. 1 Is Not Enough: The Impact of Advertising Practices on Minority-Formatted Broadcast Stations,” 1/99) Companies have cited worries that “our pilferage will increase,” if they advertise on minority stations, or said simply, “Your station will bring too many black people to my place of business.” If that’s not racism, what is?… [Link]
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p>This is part of how we end up with TV shows like Friends that are set in New York City but which show a city which is whiter than Boise, Idaho. To me, that’s just bad television and I refuse to watch it.
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p>I do realize that because of stereotypes about Asians we’re likely to see Asian representation on TV increase soon, but I want more than just parity for yellows and brownz. And yes, I do also realize that TV shows are fantasy not reality, but that’s precisely what bothers me. If the absence of minority characters represents the fantasy world of white viewers, then what does that tell us about them?
Related Stories: How Asian doctors saved the NHS
I don’t see the point you’re getting at. Do you plan to challenge my experience? Do you plan to explain to me how I misinterpreted the situation and missed the true “goodwill”? Or do you plan to say “well that’s just one isolated incident” – ie discounting the validity of personal experience to draw conclusions.
I think my personal experience is more or less irrelevant here.
wait. hmf isn’t saying it’s easier to emigrate from europe to the us, but rather whites lacking professional degress succeed at a higher rate than non-white counterparts due to white privilige.
i’m inclined to believe there must be some differnce, but i’d be curious to see the actual stats, if there are any.
Re: White “good will,” there is a study and book that argues white supremacist attitudes, even among “liberal” college students, are still widely prevalent, though they have gone underground:
A researcher at the University of Dayton who surveyed hundreds of white college students nationwide found that harsh racist language, the use of the “n-word†and the ugliest of racial stereotypes are common, everyday occurrences when white students are alone.
“What I found was there is a profound difference between the frontstage – when whites are with people of color – and the backstage – when they are with other whites,†said Leslie H. Picca, assistant professor of sociology.
In what is perceived to be the safe backstage among whites, Picca said she found that “racist comments and jokes are not only ordinary, but are often tolerated, encouraged and even expected.†link
Here is the book that emerged from the study: Two-Faced Racism
Well, it’s clear you don’t want to share your personal experiences which is fine. But I suspect that my experiences growing up here (and born here), namely that I found whites basically welcoming and positive towards me, may have been your experience, too, since my guess is that if you’d had some bad experiences you’d have told us by now.
So I am trying to figure out, basically, where the anti-white animus you have comes from. You quote Noel Ignatiev a lot, so maybe it came from books you read and not your own experiences.
I’m saying the former point follows from the latter.
Risible, this is a very interesting point. Anti-racist Tim Wise talks about this in his excellent book, “White like Me”, when he’s with a group of whites and one of them invariably makes a racist joke, Mr. Wise responds with, “I’m half black” The nice liberal white all of a sudden becomes severly apologetic, not meaning any harm, essentially all the goodwill our friend Mr. nada is used to… Tim then says, “I’m not half black, but why should that make a difference?”
And this is what I mean about whites challenging their own socializations.
HMF tells us this is a “white privilege” country because it was set up by white people for white people. 225 years have gone since it was formally established, and times do change. The first major European discoverers (first major, because vikings, possibly Irish monks, probably Chinese navigators and Filipino shrimpers, preceded Columbus) originally considered the indigenous people to be “Indians” in “India”. Can such a place be too surprised that real Indians should eventually wend their way into the warp and woof of the ethnic landscape? Not to pick on China, but is there “yellow” privilege there? They probably don’t call it “yellow.” In China, the Chinese are just The People, just the “normal” people, who have never welcomed outsiders. That is a major difference between the two biggest emerging economies. India has absorbed an endless stream of different peoples through the centuries, while the Chinese deliberately kept the Han to the Han. I have no idea what percentage of people have inner good will towards non-whites, non-browns, non-whatever. It is that sort of stressful, subjective question that enforcement of just civil law, etiquette and common civility are supposed to take care of. The rest is your own business. The east coast is an ok place for desis. If anybody tries any funny stuff, we can always sic the ACLU on them.
oh i see what you’re saying. a bit of a leap though since europe is wealthier to begin with than africa. plus, i recall on another thread someone trotting out some rather amazing stats on mexican upward mobility (like 1/2 are middle class by 2nd gen). i wonder if vijay prashad has the stats since controlling for education is key to understanding the model minority myth.
HMF, I’m from a punjabi background. And everytime my wife makes me go to a punjabi wedding or a large punjabi social event in the Vancouver area, the same thing happens every time. The Punjabi Aunties and Uncles have same conversation over and over.
All they say is Gora{white} something negative, black something negative, Native people something negative, Chinese people something negative, Desi’s of other back ground something negative and how punjabi culture and being a jatt makes them better then everybody else.
I have no idea what percentage of people have inner good will towards non-whites, non-browns, non-whatever.
There is an emerging category in whiteness studies called implicit bias, the overall effect of which can lead to both stratification and discrimination. This must be rigorously and empirically studied, in other words, we must not cede to our feelings or “personal experiences” either way. As an example, there was a recent study publicized in the New York Times on racially biased referees in the NBA. Alas, the NYT locks its archives after 30 days, but here is a brief summary from Marginal Revolution link
Are NBA referees racist?
I wouldn’t have thought so, but Justin Wolfers, writing with Joseph Price, says maybe yes:
…during the 13 seasons from 1991 through 2004, white referees called fouls at a greater rate against black players than against white players…[the authors] found a corresponding bias in which black officials called fouls more frequently against white players, though that tendency was not as strong.
Here is the paper. The effect is big enough that an all-white team would, all other things equal, win two extra games over the course of an 82-game season.
Well, A-salaam-alaikum my brother.
risbile that study was found to be stupid by many black players in the NBA, who said that they have never seen any bias due to race.
Black journalists like Steven A.Smith and Micheal Wilborn said there is no bias by NBA refs against black players. Charles Barkley said that study was beyond stupid.
Also that study was done by looking at box scores and not game footage.
And if you take out the fouls against Rasheed Wallace then there would be no bias at all.
Unflattering commentary about other “races” is traded among all “races” when they are alone. Blacks can be just as nasty about whites, when there are no whites around–I’ve heard them. Sometimes even when there whites around. Not all individuals indulge, but enough do that it is a salient human characteristic. Sometimes the nasty talk springs from resentment at the way they were treated by persons of the “other race.”
Continuing on the Chinese theme of a previous commentator, writer Maxine Hong Kingston was traumatized by the insulting terms her father muttered to himself about women. They are just old Chinese curses, she told herself, he doesn’t mean me or my mother. There may be more nasty epithets about females than about males of any race, so I’m cynical about racial epithets, loathsome though they may be. What the f@#! can you do about people talking behind your back? It is not something you have any control over, so just respect yourself. If you respect yourself and others, non-sociopaths become ashamed of negative speech. Misogynistic commentary is common among men when women aren’t around. Women can be very belittling of men, when men aren’t around. That’s why backbiting is so horrendous in its effects.
HMF, if I may ask what is your desi background. Are you south indian, bengali, gurjarti or something else.
And whatever Charles Barkley says may as well be from God on the mountaintop 😉 Yes, there is controversy surrounding the study, much of which came from the NBA itself, which published its own “study.”
that study was found to be stupid by many black players in the NBA, who said that they have never seen any bias due to race
But implicit bias is attempting to look beyond impressionistic personal experiences to see if racial bias, looked at collectively, alters outcomes.
Also that study was done by looking at box scores and not game footage.
The NBA study was not based on game footage either, but on its own data sets. For a long time, they refused to let the authors of this study see their data. Recently they did, and the study author claims that it vindicates his position. Here’s what ESPN said recently:
An independent analysis of the two conflicting studies requested by ESPN.com confirms Wolfers’ findings that referees favor their own race when they blow their whistles. Thomas Miles, who has a Ph. D. in economics from the University of Chicago and is a graduate of Harvard Law School, dissected the massive study completed by Wolfers, and compared it with the smaller study by an NBA consultant.
“I believe [Wolfers] has the better points,” said Miles, a professor at the University of Chicago Law School. “His study focused on the interactions of the race of the referee and the race of the player. The NBA was more concerned with the number of fouls called on black players and comparisons with the number of fouls called on white players.” link
but it doesnt translate into large scale discrimination from employment, criminal justice, housing, etc…
Nothing, but that’s not the point, I could care less what whites talk about amongst themselves, but when it snowballs into large scale societal inequities, then it’s a problem.
Hey Manju, I can’t speak to if it’s relevant given the past 20-25 years, but my bigger point was that the standards for even being eligible to immigrate are much higher for non-European, non-white immigrants. I was just saying we shouldn’t assume that education correlates to small business ownership (positively or negatively) among the foreign born desi pop in the U.S.
clueless, please! The study is irrelevant because some folks didn’t feel that way? I’m sorry, but that is not enough to completely up-end a study. If there is an academic/methodology based critique, I’d like to hear it.
I think razib’s underlying point was interesting – that we all hold implicit biases. This isn’t because we’re all awful racists, it’s because we live in societies with clear hierarchies, and despite our best efforts, some of those are going to get plugged into our subconscious. We get used to racism or ideas rooted in racist assumptions, particularly when these are the norm. This includes EVERYONE of all colors! I think Malcolm Gladwell does a good job of breaking this down a bit in Blink.
Look folks, at the end of the day, there are a lot of things that we accept as “normal” that stand to benefit a white majority. I’m not saying this as a condemnation of white people in the U.S. or anything to that effect. I mention it because I think it would be silly to think that racism doesn’t exist as an institutional barrier in the U.S.
This is not the same as saying that “everyone trades racist comments about everyone.” The fact is we live in a society governed by power hierarchies that are cut across a lot of lines – class, gender, race/ethnicity, national origin, citizenship, sexual orientation, religion, etc., etc., etc. It’s not so much hateful comments in isolation that make a difference, it is how those comments then feed back into power hierarchies. At least that is (part of) the theory and the concepts underpinning critical race studies and ethnic studies. You don’t have to “buy” HMF’s argument. There is a lot of interesting reading out there, and I would encourage folks to at least flip through it before dismissing outright that your skin color can disproportionately help or harm you in the U.S.
I made the exact same point, #316.
Sure, but couple this statement with your claim that “normalcy” benefits a white majority, and you reach a conclusion that our implicit biases will tend to benefit a white majority. For example, white’s fear blacks, see them on TV something like 300% more time committing crimes than they do in real life. So, our implicit bias will be to fear them.
These implicit biases must after all, come from someplace. They don’t just pop out of thin air.
I think razib’s underlying point was interesting – that we all hold implicit biases. This isn’t because we’re all awful racists, it’s because we live in societies with clear hierarchies, and despite our best efforts, some of those are going to get plugged into our subconscious.
Yes this is true. That’s why Han Chinese hegemony is relevant in China and Whiteness hegemony in America. Clueless’s family is not particularly relevant to America or Canadian understandings of race dominance because Punjabis don’t control financial resources, adminstrative bureacracy, law enforcement agencies, political representation, etc., in North America.
Look folks, at the end of the day, there are a lot of things that we accept as “normal” that stand to benefit a white majority. I’m not saying this as a condemnation of white people in the U.S. or anything to that effect. I mention it because I think it would be silly to think that racism doesn’t exist as an institutional barrier in the U.S.
Minorities themselves enable the bias that White=American, which leads to altered outcomes at odds with America’s own 21st century “egalitarian” understanding of itself. Check out a poster of this study:
The present research provides direct evidence for the idea that Latino Americans are unconsciously or automatically conceived of as being less American than White Americans. This implicit American = White association is displayed by White American participants and, to a lesser extent, by Latino American participants. Thus, even members of an ethnic minority are more prone to implicitly grant the attribute “American†to White Americans than to their own group. The impact of participants’ ethnicity on this measure is consistent with the idea that implicit associations are rooted in experiences and bear the mark of cultural socialization.
I’m not offended. Having travelled all over the world and mixed and mingled with all sorts of people, I can honestly say, same shit – different toilet, is going on everywhere.
HMF, sorry if I was unclear. When I say “normalcy” (in the U.S.) inherently benefits whites (in the U.S.), I mean that what we are TAUGHT is normal is constructed within a racist society and reflects the racial hierarchies and priorities of that society. I think we basically agree here, I am just less specific and more wordy 🙂
I feel you in #316 – I had written my comment (317) back when the comments were only at 315 and didn’t see the update until after my browser refreshed post-comment 🙂
Risible, I feel you, also. The “race” hegemony varies by region/place, bringing us back full circle to the “race is a social construct” conversation. 🙂
Maybe it reflects the cultural hierarchies and priorities of that society.
In many parts of India, my behaviour (that is completely normal for a grown woman in America) is considered completely scandalous, low-class and abuse-worthy there.
PG: Grandfather: Muslim Boyfriend: Rastafarian Husband: Emaciated Indian Fiancé: India of a different flavor Husband: Black Self: White was the last claim Religion: Hindu Outward Religious Symbols: Tilak Erstwhile Religious Affiliation:ISCKON Time in India: Ten years Location in India: Unknown No. of time harassed in India: 36510x This is a work in progress, please someone volunteer to keep this updated.
Camille, can you give a few examples of that which you were taught as “normal” in a racist society?
I have several examples to cite for my statement in the above post regarding what is taught as normal behaviour of women in India.
323
🙂 good one
I guess it a bad time to bring up Brahmin privilege in most parts of India or even Jatt privilege in the homeland of my parent the Punjab. Or even Dalit privilege in, well nevermind.
And let forget about sunnis privilege in some part of the muslim world and shiite privilege in other parts of the muslim world.
Desigora,
qoute me where i said my bf was rasta. qoute me where i said my husband was indian qoute me where i said my fiance was indian qoute me where i said my husband was black qoute me where i said i was religiously affiliated with ISKCON (i believe i said i had alot of experience with that cult due to time spent in their temples amongst friends and the number of friends i have who have had marriages arranged and ruined by iskcon leaders solely for the purpose of bringing in more money)
everything else is more or less correct
“And let forget about sunnis privilege in some part of the muslim world and shiite privilege in other parts of the muslim world.”
…And penguin privilege in Antarctica. Look, even if we’re to believe that the European history of genocide, oppression, exclusionism and subsequent racist socialization in the United States isn’t completely unique, what’s the use of bringing up all these other cases when they don’t effect the bulk of us (and I include white America in us, I believe that white privilege actually harms white people just as much as non-white people).
I will take a cue from you and won’t back anything up with facts even though unlike you I can. You have made a habit of spewing rubbish on these forums and other people reading can substantiate the list.
BTW
Typing irrelevant gibberish on SM: infinite
How could you forget Mindy Kaling? She’s on the writing team that’s instrumental in making The Office so awesome, and I believe she’s directed an episode or two as well, in addition to playing Kelly Kapoor.
I think Jay Chandrasekhar, director of Supertroopers, also writes his fair share of scripts/screenplays, if I’m not mistaken.
Your opinion.
And I can back-up everthing I write with “hands-on” personal experience — especially the gender bias and sexual molestation.
PG, You want us to accept that your 10 year + experience in India, self -admittedly as part of a cult – is definitely more accurate than anything any of us who spent 30+ years in India can say. Especially since as desigora said , your personal experience evolves to match whatever sweeping comments you make. I know exactly which comments desigora is referring to,
You may want to ask yourself what someone who so obviously has issues with India and Indians is doing spending the better part of her day ( assuming you are female ) on a board devoted to predominantly South Asian issues.
No. Whatever you have experienced is your experience. And what I have experienced is mine. I’ve usually clarified my personal statements with a clarification that it was a personal statement.
But some (not most) of you take issue with my experiences. Have I taken issue with yours?
OK then qoute those comments coz I’d also like to know what experiences have “evolved” (guess you mean fabricated) to match whatever sweeping comments I make.
Desigora is unable to qoute some of the claims he claims I made such as “emaciated Indian husband”.
Do you really believe I would marry an emaciated Indian man afterall the other statements I’ve made over the months?
Bring it on!
PG,
Your reasons are suspect, you have changed your handle multiple times from Pardesi Gori to Pardesi Gauri to PG to Mistress of Spices to Mos etc. Reg 333, no one knows what to believe as most of your stories seem made up, when you had the chance to meet the good folks of SM you backed out on some made up excuse which doesn’t lend you a lot of credibility. Everything that can happend to anyone in India has happened to you and you try and trump everyone’s elses experience of India by your supposed encounters.
Sometime I feel you are Prema/Doordarshan’s twin, I think you should both get together and write a book about what ails India, Prema can shout from the rooftops about Hungry Indian Kids and Brahmin Conspiracies and you can calm her down by telling her stories about your stay in India. I think it will be a best seller.
Do you really believe I would marry an emaciated Indian man afterall the other statements I’ve made over the months?
Wouldn’t it really depend on whether he liked yoni munching or not? 🙂
PG, If you qualified ANY of your statements then it would be okay.You make the most controversial and obnoxious statements ( All Indians experimenting sexually with their cousins? Women’s rights in India bad because of the way they are portrayed on TV?>)
You want proof of your evolving personal experience:
See here and here
And please don’t tell me this was not you- for someone who is here so often its amazing that you did not notice someone else posting as you on the same thread that you posted on !
Anyway,I am mindful of the fact that this forum is not the place for you and me to duke it out. I am done with the level of des- hate displayed and sick and tired of being the only one who seems to speak up,
Runa,
Thank you, I wonder why she is indulged so often, same thing with Prema why don’t people collectively ignore. The des hate is a discussion for another day. I have been reading this for the last two years but only lately there have been such frequent instances, I think for the most part people here are OK and are willing to learn. Some people like Prema and PG are a different story, they don’t like to educate or learn but condemn which is annoying. It will be sad to see you go and I hope you reconsider.
First link was supposed to be this
I never thought I would come to the defense of PG. But she has had many of the same experiences that my gori friend had traveling for a year in India. When she was sending her travel emails out and saying all the same things PG was saying about Indian men and making comments like “women are invisible in india” they really pissed me off. It came to the point that I asked her to take me off her list. But after speaking to her in person, I realize that Indian men treat her much differently than they treat me as I walk down the street. She had hotel workers trying to break into her room, they would try and peek into her window, she was repeatedly grabbed on the street. In general, men in India would never try doing that to a brown woman on the streets of India (the incident on NYE at India Gate being the exception = mob mentality).
I do think PG makes sweeping comments that are unfounded. I do think for someone who has spent so much time there voluntarily, she makes way too many disparaging remarks about India.
PG, my question to you is: why do you voluntarily spend time in a place for which you seem to have nothing good to say about and seem to have only “bad” experiences?
and please, please can we make this thread about yoni munching and the affects of Pineapple Juice. It started with lack of diversity in American TV, it progressed to Doctor God Complex, went on to NBA refs and then to PGs delusional ranting, it is only natural that we now talk about Yonis and Lingams.
BadIndianGirl,
I personally don’t have an issue with PGs experience, they may be true for all I know. My issue is with constant rambling. She had an opportunity to meet the commentars in person but backed out last minute. Like you said she went there voluntarily and 10 years is an awful time to realize that the place is not meant for you.
Runa, i wouldn’t want you to fall into the same “my experience trumps all others'” trap that PG fell into some years ago.
Look at nearly every thread in which she makes blanket statements about the “indian” experience and you’ll find people contradicting her until they realize that they’re banging their heads into a brick wall.
I have done it and so have many other mutineers. Extensive encouragements to write her own blog about many of the things she feels have been perpetrated upon her (or caused by a very innocent trip to the deeply mysterious sub-continent).
I’ve seen her insinuate things about close family members that I wouldn’t even expect from my worst enemy. It’s what you should expect.
Actually on the first episode of Grey’s Anatomy, Sendhil Ramamurthy (From Heroes) was on there as one of the residents waging bets against George’s appendectomy. It’s too bad they couldn’t bring him back for occasional episodes.
BadIndianGirl – unfortunately, this is completely untrue. i read about one rape, at least, in the indian newspapers everyday. and i myself have been physically assaulted in india on more than one occasion – and i only go to india about once every two years. and yes, in looks, i am very brown-looking. i do agree that desi men’s attitude towards non-desi women is different, but this has in no way saved any brown woman from her fair share of sexual derision or violation.
Seems like there’s some whole PG-drama-fight going on here. I don’t read these boards often enough to know what’s up with this. Sorry.
But I’m writing to say, all this push to Indians into medicine (whether explicit or not by your parents & our community), is killing our culture. We are a group of medical & software robots. What happened to our art and music and writing? Its dwindling, especially here in America.
I suppose the recent popularity in Indian-themed books has sparked a bunch of 20-something chick authors. So I guess that’s a plus, or maybe not? (I hope our art history isn’t remembered for “How Opel Mehta…” or even just by Jhumpa Lahiri)
How come no one ever loves Anish Kapoor? Or Chitra Ramanathan?
This is not true. There is an unconscionably large number of incidents of abuse of local women in India (not to imply that there is an acceptable threshold). What’s worse is that a lot of it is tagged with the innocuous label of eveteasing. When what it is is straight-up sexual abuse.
(I hope this thread doesn’t rathole into an analysis of the sociology of this behavior).
Runa — that was NOT me who wrote the above.
I don’t read every post on this site. When I travel (often, and for days on end at a time) I don’t use a computer at all.
I’m on here when I return home.
While I agree with 99% of your post, I can certainly attest to trepidation at meeting a group of people who are clearly antagonistic towards you, even if that antagonism is justified. And I even know this is not completely rational as people who seem to follow your every step like some type of watchdog group would most probably not carry that into a room. but it exists anyway.
hema, thanks for that 🙂
PG, when I say “taught” I mean the things that we pick up from the subtle ways life is portrayed to us. Whether this is through media/TV, or from our interactions, or from political pundits, what we assume is normal is in fact all made up. That was my point. Also, I hear you on “cultural priorities/hierarchies” — I don’t think the two (racial/power hierarchies) are exclusive. Personally I think a lot of action happens at the intersections.