Anna’s thought-provoking post on caste yesterday generated a few links to defenders of the institution which I found intriguing. One defender argues that caste is nothing but cultural pluralism:
… as a truly pluralistic society, the Hindu India allowed each ethnic group, regardless of how numerically small it was, to retain its identity…Caste is a result of this spirit of freedom and pluralism. It is something to be proud of… I pointed out that in the casteless Christian West, the minorities have been forced to abandon their identities and instead have been made to imitate the dominant group in every aspect of life [Link]
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p>This is disingenuous because it entirely ignores the hierarchy and separation at the root of the caste system. What he’s trying to imply is that the caste system creates groups that are “separate but equal” except that he can’t even say that they’re even nominally equal (and we know how the whole “separate but equal” thing worked out).
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p>Another author goes the opposite direction and embraces the idea that caste is all about inequality but says this is good:
… jati and varnam are merely a codification of the fact that all humans are not born equal in their endowments: some are tall, some are fat, some are musically talented, and so on. Caste is about the ruthless Bell Curve, and is about as inescapable as race. It is neither good nor bad; it just is (casteism, however, is reprehensible, just as racism is.) In fact, caste must be useful, which is why it has survived for so long… [Link]
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p>Of course he doesn’t come out and say that it’s about groups being better than others, but when somebody says that “all humans are not born equal in their endowments” it’s hard not to conclude that they’re talking about a hierarchy. His social darwinism comes out loud and clear when he argues that the survival of caste as a social institution is evidence of its usefulness; he’s saying that caste must be a beneficial adaptation for it to have persisted.
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p> The final defense of caste is far more subtle, and comes from an IIM Professor:
The metropolitan elite and rootless experts have concluded that caste is bad. They have made it so that every Indian is expected to feel guilty at the mention of caste. Internationally, caste is a convenient stick to flay anything Indian, its religions, customs, culture.
But the caste system is undeniably a valuable social capital, which provides a cushion for individuals and families to deal with society and the state. The Western model of atomising every individual to a single element in a right-based system and forcing the individual to have a direct link with the state has destroyed families and erased communities. Every person stands alone, stark naked, with only rights as his imaginary clothes to deal directly with the state. [Link]
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p>The argument he makes is that caste based social capital has enabled within caste institutions which then allowed entrepreneurs to emerge:
Tirupur has become a hotbed of economic activity in the production of knitted garments… The needed capital was raised within the Gounder community, a caste relegated to land-based activities, relying on community and family network…. the point that is often still missed is that, in a financial sense, caste provides the edge in risk taking, since failure is recognised, condoned, and sometimes even encouraged by the caste group. [Link]
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p>He further argues that instead of using affirmative action to try to erase caste distinctions, social policy would be better devoted to empowering backward caste entrepreneurs. He even brings out the big guns in defense of his argument, a quote from Gurcharan Das arguing in favor of certain castes:
Gurcharan Das, the strategic consultant, writer and former vice-president and managing director of Proctor & Gamble Worldwide, says in his book, India Unbound, “In the nineteenth century, British colonialists used to blame our caste system for everything wrong in India. Now I have a different perspective. Instead of morally judging caste, I seek to understand its impact on competitiveness. I have come to believe that being endowed with commercial castes is a source of advantage in the global economy.” [Link]
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p>The problem with this last set of arguments is that they try to find something positive associated with caste rather than weighing the net social impact of a variety of different social arrangements. So of course social networks are good and helpful, but you know what – they’re better when they’re open to outsiders and they’re meritocratic. It’s nice to have somebody who can lend you money, but market mechanisms do this a heck of a lot more effectively than non-market ones. Lastly, anti-caste social policy is not at all remotely an attempt to create atomized individuals, so his dichotomy is falsely posed.
Correction: I meant four attempt rule, it used to be three attempt rule for IAS (Indian Administrative Services), and IFS (Indian Foreign Service)
:If they do “grok” caste, let them discuss it.
Karthik, this is where we part ways. I don’t see why I owe anybody an explanation about caste. Honestly, why should I explain my position on caste to muslim friend ? Kalavai Venkat & Dr. Vaidyanathan couldn’t have explained it better in their respective essays, and YET they are dismissively rebuffed as disingenuous. Honestly, there is enough meat in those two essays for two entire SM threads and then some.
I can take the time & explain caste in some detail, but I’m not sure if 2nd gen NRIs will get it. It just makes much more sense if you are actually living in India. Its really a very experiential phenomenon. Its not worthwhile trying to get a very superficial understanding of something as complex as caste, especially when you’ve already decided its a moot point for you.
eg. Say you are a Hyderabadi muslim. You come to a Hindu colony & try to rent a house. Typically, the muslim community will dissuade you & they’ll find you a house in their own colony. They’ll do this not out of any undue pressure ie. it is not that the Hindu community don’t want you here. Its just not done, that’s all. The whole deal happens with a great deal of subtlety & tact. To an outsider/western NRI 2nd gen, it’ll look like casteist discrimination. To a FOB/Indian, its just business as usual. Similar shit will happen if an Iyer tries to rent a house in a thevar community instead of in an agraharam. No pressure, just tact.
Yes, Brahmins will vote for JJ, OBCs for MuKa. As Tamilians, we vote on casteist lines. So whats your problem with that ? Guntoting republicans vote for Bush & healthcare liberals for Clinton & so on. Caste embodies much more than just religious sub-affiliation. Over time it has come to mean values, political power, money power ( panabalam, pakkabalam, aalbalam ). Say somebody walks up to me and says he is a Gounder. INSTANTLY, in less than a second, I know pretty much everything I need to know about him, other than his very specific personal details. It captures that level of microscopic info, so its very powerful. Its like if you tell me you live in 90210, I then assume you must drive a Prius ๐
Karthik, I get the feeling you think that the system is broken. ie. you actively want to seek out people who are unlike you & then explain your position to them & learn from them & then be thankful for the whole insightful intercourse that must have taken place. I think that’s a very west-centric attitude, much more common in 2nd gen NRIs & liberals & so on. I personally don’t think the system is broken. I don’t want to explain caste to muslim, or learn about Islam from him, or buy this kuran or marry a gounder or whatever – I mean, they live their lives, I live my life, it seems to work out ok. If the OBC votes for MuKa I will vote for JJ & counterbalance that. I’m reminded of that last scene in Mani Ratnam’s Bombay when he gets the Hindu & Muslim & Sikh & all other religions and castes to hold hands & sing a song…I remember in my village people howled at the screen, it was so lame. Caste isn’t going to go away anytime soon. No amount of holding hands can prevent a jaathi kalavaram ( caste fight ). Better to buy an aruval ( sickle ) to chop the other bastards’s head when the time comes than hold hands & song songs…I think there is a Tamil proverb to that effect, can’t recall at this time.
PS, its near Srivilliputtur, near the cotton mills. We’ve had caste wars during election time but these days junta wants to build some call centers & get jobs for the locals, alloted strictly along caste lines ofcourse ๐
These figures you have presented are completely bogus. Completely bogus.
Patwant Singh’s cite is to Khushwant Singh “Brahmin Power” Sunday 20-7 1990 p. 19
.but I’m not sure if 2nd gen NRIs will get it
if they don’t “get it,” should they even be termed non-resident indians?
Kush, The whole IAS is taken up by Brahmins is a South Indian thing. In Bihar (which was very high if not the top in providing IAS candidates) has more Kayastha IAS people than Brahmins. This applies to UP as well.
Similarly one would RARELY see a Gujarati Brahmin (or any other caste for that matter) in IAS ranks, just because it is not considered socially important to be IAS officer in Gujarat.
Caste realities of different parts of India are DIFFERENT. For god sakes “Chaudhury” last name in Bengal can be a “Brahmin”, which is … errr never mind. I dont want to get into caste.
While I cant find “Brahmin Power” on the net. I did find this from a poster to “Sikh Net”. It is uncited, so take it for what its worth. Any verification or discrediting of the data welcome:
Power of Brahmins
Khushwant Singh
I have a consuming interest in castes without having the slightest bit of prejudice for or against any of them.
Whenever I am in a conference, seminar or a social function, I count how many of the most important belong to what castes. It has never been more than a matter of curiosity. But one conclusion is inevitable: Whatever be the sphere of curiosity-literary, scientific, bureaucratic or whatever-the Brahmin remains the top dog. It may be ethnic, or it may be the result of several generations of learning of which they held the monopoly till the ] last century, or both combined. Before I give details, we should bear in mind that Brahmins form no more than 3.5% OF THE POPULATION OF OUR COUNTRY.
My statistics come from a pen friend, Brother Stanny, of St. Anne’s Church of Dhule in Maharashtra. He has compiled figures of different castes in government employment during British rule in 1935 and as they were 35 years after Independence in 1982. During british rule, the largest proportion of government jobs (40%) were held by Kayasthas. Today their figure has dropped to 7%. Next came the Muslims who were given special privileges by the British. They had 35% jobs in 1953, in free India their representation has dropped to 7%. Christians likewise favoured by the English had 15%; their figure has dropped to 1%. Scheduled castes, tribes and backward classes, who had hardly any government jobs, have achieved a representation of 9% but the most striking contrast is in the employment of Brahmins. Under the British they had 3% fractionally less than the proportion of their population; today they hold as much as 70% of government jobs. I presume the figure refers only to gazetted posts. In the senior echelons of the civil service from the rank of deputy secretaries upwards, out of 500 there are 310 Brahmins, i.e. 63% of the 26 state chief secretaries, 19 are Brahmins; of the 27 Governors and Lt. Governors 13 are Brahmins; of the 16 Supreme Court judges, 9 are Brahmins; of the 330 judges of the High Courts, 166 are Brahmins; of 140 ambassadors, 58 are Brahmins; of 98 vice-chancellors 50 are brahmins; of 438 district magistrates, 250 are Brahmins; of the total of 3,300 IAS officers, 2,376 are Brahmins. They do equally well in electoral posts; of the 530 Lok Sabha members, 190 are Brahmins, of 244 in the Rajya sabha, 89 are Brahmins. These statistics clearly prove that this 3.5% of Brahmin community of India holds between 36 to 63% of all the plum jobs available in the country. How this has come about I don’t know. But I can scarcely believe that it is entirely due to the Brahmin’s higher I.Q.
Yeah I am sure it works out ok for you. You aren’t the one in the receiving end are you. Btw, you are a shameless bigot. Many people accuse Indian society of apathy. You are a shining example of why.
1st amendment of Indian Constitution:
Up front, the Constitution laid down that 15% and 7.5% of vacancies to government aided educational institutes and for jobs in the government/ public sector, as reserved quota for the SC and ST candidates respectively.
RC, Risible, I do not mean to be harsh but we need to take all these “goofy” stats with a pinch of salt (Who knows Khushwant Singh had too many patiala peg before writiing, even though I have always like him).
Sure, why not, in South India, Brahmins prefer being IAS/ IFS, and Sikkimese women too. A lot of SC/ ST/ OBC move up the IAS cadre from Group C and Group D section [I do not know everyone understands what I am talking about – some are selected straight IAS/ IFS officers, and some move up from other services]. I can believe IAS/ IFS being Brahmin heavy, but those numbers, come on.
The last Chief Secretary of External Affairs (one of the highest ranking civil servant, maybe after Home Secretary) was a Sikkimese women.
Let’s keep the bigger picture and facts in line.
I do science for living – once a professor in grad school told me “no number is far better than a bad number“. Bad numbers muck up everything – misinformation
Uma at Indian Writing is an IAS officer. Why don’t you ask her?
Constitution laid down that 15% and 7.5% of vacancies to government aided educational institutes and for jobs in the government/ public sector, as reserved quota for the SC and ST candidates respectively.
But doesn’t much of the SC/ST quota go unfilled? And remember I was talking early 80s, 35 years after Independence.
Let’s keep the bigger picture and facts in line.
That’s fine. I admit when I’m wrong. Why, right on this thread as a matter of fact! So if you can provide hard contrary data to Khuswant Singh’s ,I would acknowledge it and move on. But calling a statement “mucky” doesn’t refute it, now does it? ๐
But doesn’t much of the SC/ST quota go unfilled? And remember I was talking early 80s, 35 years after Independence.
No, they don’t for IAS/ IFS cadre. Precisely, SC/ ST/ OBCs (and others too) from Group C and Group D (other civil servants than IAS/ IFS) also moved up to IAS/ IFS cadre for their service and also to fill the numbers. This is not downgrade their promotion to IAS/ IFS cadre.
Also, this reason was behind filling the numbers [From UPSC website]
Q1. What is the restriction on number of attempts in Commissionรขโฌโขs Examinations? Ans. Number of attempts :- (1) Civil Service Examination – General-4, OBC-7, SC/ST- No restriction (2) IFS Examination- General-4, OBC-7, SC/ST-No restriction There is no restriction on number of attempts in any other Examination conducted by the Commission.
Naipaul was already a terminally bitter old codger, raring at the opportunity to blame some portion of what he viewed as his ‘heritage’ for all the perceived slights and difficulties he saw coming his way.
2nd gens, in my experience, share none of those characteristics. I consider it my duty as a patriotic American to show the newly arrived IBDs (that I play cricket with) that asking after somebody’s gothram or caste affiliation is a terribly unproductive line of inquiry. Here, although the rule is unevenly applied, you must proceed as if everybody’s respect is earned rather than granted by virtue of the family they were born into.
After all, if you call me a servant or a night-soil collector, and I’m holding a brand-spanking-new SG bat in my hand, what’s to stop me from braining you?
I’m holding a brand-spanking-new SG bat in my hand, what’s to stop me from braining you?
Or to paraphrase ol’ Teddy, speak softly, but carry a big bat.
Pathetic. Whats “fked up” is your reading comprehension. And the abominable system you seem to cherish. Its not me who is calling brahmins “niggers” but white racists who I am quoting. If you think its “fked up” to call people demeaning names then lets see some intellectual honesty from you: do you also agree that its “f**ked up” to call people untouchables? And to treat them so inhumanely? Yes or no?
LOL, the troll is upset! FYI, I don’t subscribe to any religion, although I was born into a brahmin family (yeah, a closet ‘caste defender’!!!). No one here has defended discrimination or atrocities against people on the basis of caste. Personally I couldn’t care less about the whole thing. But it is amusing to see you point out time and again how Indian upper castes were seen as ‘Niggers’ by white people. You never tire of pointing out how India lags behind sub-Saharan Africa etc etc. In short, you have a one point hate agenda. And spare us your concern for the oppressed – you are a fake. Here’s hoping you can rid yourself of some of that hate (not holding my breath).
2nd gens, in my experience, share none of those characteristics. I consider it my duty as a patriotic American to show the newly arrived IBDs (that I play cricket with) that asking after somebody’s gothram or caste affiliation is a terribly unproductive line of inquiry.
No offense, but your IBD friends are definitely not representative of a majority of IBDs living in the US. In the time that I spent in the US, I never heard anyone ask anyone else what their caste, let alone gothram, was (I’m talking about people in the 25-40 age group that I mostly came across). The only one I ever came across who mentioned such things (he was my customer!) moved to the US 25 years or so ago and was weird in a few other ways. Your intentions are honourable, but that comment is condescending.
This is a theme that is being repeated from the other caste thread, that somehow IBDs are obsessed with caste. Caste matters, no doubt about that. But people (particularly the younger ones) in India don’t sit around the coffee table discussing their gothras.
What a confused creature you must be, defending something you dont “subscribe” to ๐
Tambram,
I find your rhetoric highly disturbing. You don’t consider discriminating people on basis of caste or judging them on the basis of caste when caste does not correlate with your individual traits or personality. I am offended when people reduce me to my race, caste and gender. Please stop embarassing your fellow Tambrams with your ignorance.
“Yes, Brahmins will vote for JJ, OBCs for MuKa. As Tamilians, we vote on casteist lines. So whats your problem with that ? Guntoting republicans vote for Bush & healthcare liberals for Clinton & so on. As Tamilians, we vote on casteist lines. So whats your problem with that ?”
It is not a tamilian thing to vote on casteist lines. It is not an Indian thing. It is a bigoted thing just like voting on the basis of a candidate’s race is bigoted.
Whats bogus is your attempt to disprove it with silly points like:
Anyone who claims that brahmins, who are less than 5% of the population, haven’t dominated the governement, bureaucracy etc since independence is nothing but a brazen liar.
These proportions must have dwindled somewhat since the time (decades ago) that the data was collected, but the point remains that brahmin domination has been obscenely disproportional. The sorry results of this domination are plain for all to see. These clueless, corrupt and incompetent fools are responsible for India’s continued backwardness. At the height of their domination India was considered a nation of beggars, with these stupid and servile brahmin babus going from foreign capital to foreign capital, begging bowl in hand, groveling for handouts from nations whose leaderships were intelligent and qualified, unlike themselves.
Prema, you made good points in this thread but your speech veers off from criticism to bigotry.
“These proportions must have dwindled somewhat since the time (decades ago) that the data was collected, but the point remains that brahmin domination has been obscenely disproportional. The sorry results of this domination are plain for all to see. These clueless, corrupt and incompetent fools are responsible for India’s continued backwardness. At the height of their domination India was considered a nation of beggars, with these stupid and servile brahmin babus going from foreign capital to foreign capital, begging bowl in hand, groveling for handouts from nations whose leaderships were intelligent and qualified, unlike themselves.”
If you change the ‘brahmin’ to any other overrepresented minority, this would sounds racist. Stop it with the ad hominem, they detract from your arguments.
So, question for Tamils (brahmin and non-brahmin):
Tambrams have been at the receiving end of reverse-castism now in TN for decades…ever since the Dravidian movement. Prior to that, in their heydey, did Tambrams exert a lot of influence in Tamil society, and did they oppress other castes (socially or otherwise)? Were they considered very privileged folks a century ago? Two centuries ago? Did the leaders of the Dravidian movement have legitimate grievances against them when the movement started? I mean, the movement must have been in response to something, right?
Tambram:
Funny and repulsive at the same time isn’t he? This is exactly the sort of chalta hai mentality that perpetuates these cultural abominations he so cheerfully accepts as normal and inevitable.
Meritocracy is the best sensibility. Judge people as individuals. Ammachi was from the fisher caste. Thank god she managed to overcome prejudice and be the great guru that she is. Nandu Menon is tribal. His book, Kali’s Odiyya, written under the name, Amarananda Bhairavan is, for me, a spiritual classic. Casteism is antispiritual and the highest gurus ignore it. Nityananda is a good example. Purportedly, from a low caste himself, he reportedly mingled with everyone. People of low sensibilities that held onto their limitations just avoided him.
Amitabh I don’t know a lot of the background to the Periyar ‘self respect’ movement in Tamil nadu. But I do know three things led to the ‘self respect’ movement. (1) the domination of the Brahmins in Congress in Tamil Nadu (2) the refusal of certain temples to allow non-brahmin members inside the sanctum (3) the domination of brahmins in government positions and colleges
Maybe somone more knowledgable can expand on this.
Meritocracy is the best sensibility. Judge people as individuals.
yes!
I know you mean well but there is a flaw in focusing on the generic “upper caste” that you have missed: low caste sudras also have a group below them to practice caste discrimination on, the untouchables.
The focus should be on those at the top of the hierarchy. As shown above they, despite being a tiny minority, continue to disproportionately dominate India to its great detriment. You can easily see from their posts here and elsewhere how selfish and narrow minded their sentiments and aspirations are.
Fu.ck South Asians
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Fu.ck South Asians
Stop it with the ad hominem
dude, seriously, next you’ll be telling the duck to stop quacking.
anyway, sometimes two wrongs don’t make a right and fighting fire with fire isn’t the best route. people just get “insulted, offended even.”
kim, i am a proud supporter of interracial sex, so with regard to your sentiment, i encourage you in your aspirations!
risible,
Here is the break up of 2006-07 UPSC exam results:
PS: I am very busy with papers and work, and I have to go oversees for talk in two weeks, etc. However, I can find the break up of Indian Civil Services from 1950s onwards from Government of India documents. It will require quite a bit of work rather than just googling. They are journals that talk about it but they are behind subscription firewall. Why don’t you do it yourself rather than going after “penpal” derived sources or maybe more researched books. Notice they talk of group A and B, I hope you understand Group A, B, C, D categories in Indian Civil Services and lateral movement from other groups to Group A and B, and 1st amendment of Indian constitution, and role of IAS/ IFS in Indian Government, and how slotting is done in Civil Services. IAS/ IFS was gold pre-1990s, and therefore, that is one of the services, where cannot leave slots open, or unfullfiled.
If I find something credible, I’ll share. What was your (or your scholars) number ~2400/ 3300 Brahmins, Hmm. We’ll see whether 1s amendment was implemented by UPSC, what were Khattris, Banias, and others doing. Let us rest it there. Seriously, ask Uma @ Indian Writing rather than taking flights of fancy or misinformation.
Prema, take a hike.
“dude, seriously, next you’ll be telling the duck to stop quacking.”
I’m a girl ๐
itz a unisex term!
Amitabh – yes, of course Brahmins were socially and economically dominant in TN pre-self respect movement, they weren’t the only dominant upper caste but IIRC, caste in the south is a good deal more polarized between upper and lower, with fewer middle castes, as it were. And of course if you’re going after an oppressive hierarchy it makes symbolic sense to go after the “keepers” or top dogs in it, and Brahmins had the role of the keepers of religious tradition on the basis of which the caste system was socially justified (whether or not its roots and effects and social manifestations can be traced directly to religious texts being quite another, more complicated matter). I also vaguely remember that it was a matter of rejecting north Indian dominance particularly in Congress…that was the Dravidianist component, which conflated and racialized south-Indianness and lower-caste-ness.
Kush Tandon, your figures about the current IAS are interesting, thanks. One should bear in mind of course that they do not reflect all those currently in the IAS, most of whom graduated a decade or two ago, pre-Mandal commission. But the trend is an important one to note.
sp, i agreed with a lot you said so far, but not here. you forget here that it is not the iraqi/north korean govt or anything remotely similar you are talking about. just because you want to pick on someone, you are going after at least a 100 million people at least a big percentage of whom personally have nothing more to do with the oppression than you do? most of those are not “keepers of religious tradition” any more than you (or me) are.
the percentage of bigots is no different no matter what the caste is. one thing that unites us all. no one is less benign than the other today—it is not as if one is capable of more harm than the other.
Bytewords, I said “symbolic sense” – and as far as many of the members of the SRM saw it, I’m sure their local Brahmins, even though they might not have directly oppressed them, were the “bosses” of the caste system. Have to run but just wanted to make that clear.
most of whom graduated a decade or two ago, pre-Mandal commission. But the trend is an import
Long, long before Mandal Commissiom – there was the 1st amendment of Indian Constitution, and this:
All the links I have put (on the comments above), most of them relate to IAS/ IFS services, their historical context, UPSC exams, and their rules*** since civil services became part of Independent India, especially 1951.
*** no exam attempt limit, and age relaxation is very, very old.
Exactly.
Its disingenuous of these defenders of casteism to distract attention from brahmins to the other castes.
I am sure you will find that your silly, desperate arguments denying brahmin domination are “completely bogus” if you actually do the work and find the data. Which is why I am also sure you will find an excuse not to do it ๐
what is SRM?
It is foolish of these liberators of casteism to focus attention on brahmins instead of all oppressive casteism itself.
especially since changing the dravidian movement into a mostly anti-brahmin one has not helped the dalits in the past decades. or maybe its not so foolish… maybe the self-styled liberators want it that way, so they can continue their endless “fight” for the downtrodden castes.
Riiight. I can only see from Karthik and Tambram’s posts (both part of the same tiny brahmin minority) how varied their opinions and attitudes are. What I can easily see is how bigoted and hate-filled you are.
I am sure you will find that your silly, desperate arguments denying brahmin domination are “completely bogus” if you actually do the work and find the data. Which is why I am also sure you will find an excuse not to do it ๐
Toto,
Once I say I am going to do it, I will do it unlike you parroting the same the song over and over, like a parrot. Did I find an excuse, pal.
According to Mandal Commission (1980) findings:
This is (37.67 %) nearly half of numbers quoted by Ennis (he did acknowledge the lack of veracity in his comment), Risible through Khushwant Singh’s penpal, and other plagarists/ parrots. (2376/ 3330) * 100 ~= 72%. The margin of error is close to 100%. In comment #.205, I had said that I believed Brahmins dominate IAS/ IFS but the numbers that toto (aka Prema aka Doordarshan) was all getting excited was all garbage. This raises question about people who are willing to push falsehood (or lack of commonsense) for their agenda
Hopefully, somebody can find the complete Mandal Report because it will also give data about SC/ ST in incoming class of IAS/ IFS through UPSC exams (as SC/ ST category and reservations back dates OBCs) too, and Gazette of India about complete breakup of IAS/ IFS through years.
The question is about being honest in discourse.
I was planning to blog it one day.. But the gist of the story. Yes, you should read the debates in the “state assembly, federal assembly” and in Congress meetings in the 1920s, 30s, 40s to see the influence of Brahmins and other upper castes. Actually, even the Independence movement is led by mostly upper caste leaders and Brahmins. Prominent non-Brahmin leaders were on the opposing side usually siding with the Brits like Ambedkar, Periyar etc.. As usual after the victory, the victors take the spoils.. ๐
I guess that’s what happened after Independence.. Like Kush Tandon pointed out, the “first amendment” was moved to assure existing “caste based reservations”, because the first thing the “upper caste” dominated new government of India did was to take away the “caste and religion based reservations” offered by the Madras government since 1921.
Now read this..
.. The 1921 order was based on the 1854 order. The SILF, which was formed in 1916, came to power based on the twin agenda declared in its first manifesto. The agenda was: Ensuring admission for รขโฌลSudrasรขโฌย and Scheduled Castes in schools and to start a newspaper (as it did the Justice). They had to struggle to implement the manifesto. According to the 1921 order, the major chunk of 44 per cent jobs were reserved for non-Brahmins, 16 per cent for Brahmins, 16 per cent for Muslims, 16 per cent for Anglo-Indians and Christians and eight per cent for the Scheduled Castes.
The people who are opposing the Brahmins are not angels either.. Read the “sudra” angle or the general “non-Brahmin” category being allotted 44%. It is dominated by the land-owning and rich dominant non-Brahmin upper castes like Mudaliyars / Pillais etc.. even Brahmins after so many decades of attack have become a bit mellowed and if they practice “caste superiority” (they sure are) do it within their homes. But these castes under the disguise of OBCs get their pound of flesh and act as if it is just the Brahmins who are responsible. And the leaders of the Justice party (non-Brahmin party) are rich landlords / diwans etc.. and have started to dominate. This infuriated the other groups like “Vanniars” and “one type of Thevars” who have good numbers to back them up to ask for and get another category called ‘Most Backward Castes” carved out of the OBCs.
If someone attacks just the Brahmins and ignore others, I’d conclude they are not really interested in removing the scourge but just replace one bunch of oppressors with the other.
Dravidian movemenet (or rather Periyar) had some noble ideas, but that movement was hijacked by equally casteist non-Brahmin upper castes.
Hey pal you had promised this:
All you have done is exactly what you were pooh poohing: you googled to some frenchman’s site and quoted from his index about a controversial report. Get to work tampon and do what you said you were going to do ๐
BTW your quote actually makes the point against you. It says that the OBCs who are what 52% of the population hold only 2% of IAS positions! The percentage for the 24% untouchables and tribals should have been in the same range dont you agree? In other words the small upper caste minority hogged almost all of the IAS positions. So Khushwant Singh’s calculation of 72% for brahmins appears more reasonable than the 37% from that link. Otherwise who do you think accounted for the rest of IAS positions?
And this intellectual honesty is sorely lacking among the caste defenders as anyone can see.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/6665027.stm
“With a population of well over one billion people, India shouldn’t be experiencing that kind of wage inflation but it is – not least because many millions of people are failing to get the education that they need.
That lack of education is made worse by the caste system.
Despite positive discrimination legislation, Dr Uttara Sahasrabuddhe of Mumbai University told me that life if still tough for those at the bottom of the pile.
“Basically those who don’t have access to education are those in the lowest castes and without a good education you aren’t going to get the good jobs,” he said.
“India is being held back because a large part of the population is not allowed to contribute to the economy in any real way,” he says, “and they are only supposed to work as labourers.
“Just look at China – why has it developed so fast? Because it has not held back anybody, it is not saying you cannot work like this or you cannot work like that. Everybody is allowed to work and contribute.”
The comparison with China is well made – China is growing more quickly than India and that gap is not only caused by India’s failure to use its human resources to their maximum potential.”
chineese labor is almost like slaves. not a great model i think…
I more or less agree with Dr. Sahasrabuddhe, except when she makes the China comparison. She basically has no clue about Chinese labor conditions (to be fair to her neither do many other academics; has to do with the secretive nature of Chinese labor practices,; Chinese SEZ factories are like forts). However her statement can be interpreted in another way; she is saying that the labor market in India is highly segmented with islands of far from perfect competition, and hence the wage inflation. If all castes could enter equally in the labor market it would tend to put a downward pressure on labor costs and hence Indian manufacturing would become more competitive. This happens in China, but its not true that as she says,
. A poor Chinese farmer from the back-county does not have much choice but to work his/her ass off in heavily policed and regimented factories without much benefits(though even here there are other factors that differentiate the worst affected from the much better off); Does this lead to economic growth, measured by increase in GDP per capita? Definitely. But, to take an extreme example, this is like saying that Stalin’s murder of kulaks increased the per capital GDP of the Soviet Union (the Chinese story is a far milder version, as I said, I am taking an extreme example). One would not want that to happen in India. The only options are not caste-ridden labor market or the Chinese model.
Periyar “if you see a snake and a pappan(brahmin), kill the brahmin first. Because snake has poison just in its mouth… but pappan is full of poison.” extremely noble and non bigoted ideas!!
By the way periyar belonged to the previleged land owning type family. He might go down in history as the most bigoted guy to be admired by the general population.
SRM = self respect movement.
Kush, I’m well aware of SC/ST reservations going back much further than Mandal, referred to Mandal because it sought to push reservations past 50% of the population. Not sure what your point was there?
I think it’s important to remember that all upper castes (savarna) are overrepresented in the civil service and other good jobs, not just Brahmins, hence the teeny percentage of backward classes noted in the Mandal report even as Brahmins made up only 37% of the service (though that’s still extremely disproportionate to their population). I mentioned that it made sense for Periyar and Co to go after the brahmins as the keepers of the system because it, well, works to mobilize people – not suggesting Brahmins were the only oppressors (and arguably in terms of direct oppressive contact, as it were, it’s the landowning classes a few spaces down that matter more for most lower castes). However, given the polarization of caste in the south and the relatively more entrenched domination of Brahmins in the south, you can see why the SRM focused on them.
It is indeed a shame that the quest to right historical wrongs turned so vindictive and forced so many TamBrahms to go overseas (we lost that human capital!), but it was probably part of the zero-sum distributive-state nature of Indian politics at the time, and TamBrahms haven’t suffered hugely in economic terms (partly due to migration).
I’d recommend reading the most recent HRW report on Dalits in India as a way of understanding how discrimination stays entrenched even with legal equality and efforts by the govt, it really opened my eyes.
What system are these brahmins the keepers of? Power? The implication here is that any other jati will not misuse power or try and keep it all for themselves. This is a bogus line of thought. If brahmins were imposing their brahminhood on everyone else then this would be a valid objection. In fact the Nehru/Gandhi dynasty was as far removed from brahmindom as anyone can possibly be. Yet their names are being flaunted as part of some sort of a brahmnin stranglehold. As if to say the issue here is brahmins and not power itself!
Its disingenuous of these defenders of casteism to distract attention from brahmins to the other castes.
I don’t think its disingenuous at all, because I think much of the casteism was not perpetrated by Brahmins in isolation. Casteism was/is alive and well among other upper caste groups too. Furthermore, the alleged hero of the southern anti-Brahmin/anti-caste movement, Periyar, was himself a landed and uber-wealthy member of an upper caste. But he singled out the Brahmin for all criticism, and the effects of that have permeated TN politics and society for decades now.
Spread the blame around a little…I’m sure there’s enough to go around.
What he said about Brahmins during the time he said may have some validity. remember vaikom. He is not admired for hating. He is admired for instilling “self-respect” to the downtrodden. Which is a great achievement especially when the whole society is apathetic to the plight of the downtrodden. Remember the time in history he told that. He did not say it yesterday, nor does his followers still use it.