Anna’s thought-provoking post on caste yesterday generated a few links to defenders of the institution which I found intriguing. One defender argues that caste is nothing but cultural pluralism:
… as a truly pluralistic society, the Hindu India allowed each ethnic group, regardless of how numerically small it was, to retain its identity…Caste is a result of this spirit of freedom and pluralism. It is something to be proud of… I pointed out that in the casteless Christian West, the minorities have been forced to abandon their identities and instead have been made to imitate the dominant group in every aspect of life [Link]
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p>This is disingenuous because it entirely ignores the hierarchy and separation at the root of the caste system. What he’s trying to imply is that the caste system creates groups that are “separate but equal” except that he can’t even say that they’re even nominally equal (and we know how the whole “separate but equal” thing worked out).
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p>Another author goes the opposite direction and embraces the idea that caste is all about inequality but says this is good:
… jati and varnam are merely a codification of the fact that all humans are not born equal in their endowments: some are tall, some are fat, some are musically talented, and so on. Caste is about the ruthless Bell Curve, and is about as inescapable as race. It is neither good nor bad; it just is (casteism, however, is reprehensible, just as racism is.) In fact, caste must be useful, which is why it has survived for so long… [Link]
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p>Of course he doesn’t come out and say that it’s about groups being better than others, but when somebody says that “all humans are not born equal in their endowments” it’s hard not to conclude that they’re talking about a hierarchy. His social darwinism comes out loud and clear when he argues that the survival of caste as a social institution is evidence of its usefulness; he’s saying that caste must be a beneficial adaptation for it to have persisted.
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p> The final defense of caste is far more subtle, and comes from an IIM Professor:
The metropolitan elite and rootless experts have concluded that caste is bad. They have made it so that every Indian is expected to feel guilty at the mention of caste. Internationally, caste is a convenient stick to flay anything Indian, its religions, customs, culture.
But the caste system is undeniably a valuable social capital, which provides a cushion for individuals and families to deal with society and the state. The Western model of atomising every individual to a single element in a right-based system and forcing the individual to have a direct link with the state has destroyed families and erased communities. Every person stands alone, stark naked, with only rights as his imaginary clothes to deal directly with the state. [Link]
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p>The argument he makes is that caste based social capital has enabled within caste institutions which then allowed entrepreneurs to emerge:
Tirupur has become a hotbed of economic activity in the production of knitted garments… The needed capital was raised within the Gounder community, a caste relegated to land-based activities, relying on community and family network…. the point that is often still missed is that, in a financial sense, caste provides the edge in risk taking, since failure is recognised, condoned, and sometimes even encouraged by the caste group. [Link]
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p>He further argues that instead of using affirmative action to try to erase caste distinctions, social policy would be better devoted to empowering backward caste entrepreneurs. He even brings out the big guns in defense of his argument, a quote from Gurcharan Das arguing in favor of certain castes:
Gurcharan Das, the strategic consultant, writer and former vice-president and managing director of Proctor & Gamble Worldwide, says in his book, India Unbound, “In the nineteenth century, British colonialists used to blame our caste system for everything wrong in India. Now I have a different perspective. Instead of morally judging caste, I seek to understand its impact on competitiveness. I have come to believe that being endowed with commercial castes is a source of advantage in the global economy.” [Link]
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p>The problem with this last set of arguments is that they try to find something positive associated with caste rather than weighing the net social impact of a variety of different social arrangements. So of course social networks are good and helpful, but you know what – they’re better when they’re open to outsiders and they’re meritocratic. It’s nice to have somebody who can lend you money, but market mechanisms do this a heck of a lot more effectively than non-market ones. Lastly, anti-caste social policy is not at all remotely an attempt to create atomized individuals, so his dichotomy is falsely posed.
Dear all,
Here is a link to another kind of perspective on the situation of Brahmins in contemporary India:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P7Xgc4ljHKM
Like Ennis, I do not know how reliable the figures given here are. But if there is any truth in this, it is disconcerting, after all we have heard about Brahmins.
Yours,
Jakob
People, civility please? We can have this debate without putting down the members of one or another group, we can argue against supremacy without making the other side feel personally attacked.
Prema in particular, your contributions are valued, but they might be more effective if you toned down the rhetoric just a notch. Sometimes it feels like you’re putting down all brahmins rather than disagreeing with claims of brahmin supremacy.
When Anna simply asks junta about caste, it must instantly be labelled thought-provoking. But when Dr. Vaidyanathan, or Kalavai Venkat takes the bait and actually makes his case out in great detail, it surely must be disingenuous, problematic and falsely posed. Over time, SM can only get more and more one-sided if you continue in this manner. If you disagree with me, you might belong to the fastest growing caste in North America, the SM-caste. It is characterized by 2nd gen NRI kids bitching about stuff that is of no consequence to them simply because they don’t live in India. If it were of consequence, they would be advised to atleast learn a bit about it from those who have internalized it back in India than go by the headline grabbing reports. eg. I know atleast 9 couples who had a benign dowry experience ie. the bride’s family gave dowry without any pressure, the groom used the money to buy jewelry for the bride, or fund a business, or marry off the daughters in the family etc. Dowry was given and it was accepted. It did not make the news because nothing untoward happened. I also know of one extreme case where the bride’s family was harassed so much the bride actually stood on the railway tracks and you know what followed. This case made the news. Hence dowry = evil. But what of the rest ? Well, they are probably disingenuous people. Let us ignore them. They are not news worthy. Maybe they are falsely posed, problematic people. But wait. What am I really saying here ? That caste is ok ? Huh ?! My comment must be a personal, non-issue-focused flame. It is intolerant, anti-secular and long. And definitely obscure. Where’s that unpaid intern ? Is she dozing off reading Cosmo Girl ? Shoo shoo, off with you Tambram shudra. Only SM-caste people allowed here. Go back to tfmpage or forumhub or wherever your kind hangs out.
Tambram – leave ANNA out of it, this is an Ennis thread 😉
And near as I can tell, both sides are holding their own here. I stated my position in the main post, I’m not that engaged at this point. I certainly haven’t accused anybody of engaging in a “personal, non-issue-focused flame”. That said, I’m not a huge fan of intolerant, anti-secular, long and obscure posts.
As for dowry, that’s a different discussion, one for another time. I’ll be happy to disagree with you then.
Tambram (Post 153):
Anna and Ennis merely suggest topics to get us thinking and posting. They are not more privileged than other bloggers. They are just like us, sometimes profound, sometimes not. Speaking for myself, I found Jakob’s post more profound than Ennis’s post, at least in this thread. I hope this will convince you that this forum is reasonably democratic
Drat. I swear we were mentioned in Manu Smirti.
GriffendorGryffindor loses 10 moksha points!Not to be a Harry Potter nerd or anything, but it’s actually spelled Gryffindor. Sorry. As you were. ;0)
To PGW, I think Anna & Ennis’s pov is simplistic to the point of being utterly trivial. Yes, caste has been an unwholesome experience for a whole lot of very vocal people. But the nonvocal majority atleast back in India have no issue with it, just as they have no issue with untouchability or dowry or somesuch. Caste has become a conditioned response. When I go home to my village, I strike up conversations with the maid servant and help out when there are too many dirty vessels – I pull water out of the well & she cleans the vessels – and my grandparents are cool with that. But I can’t ask her to step into the kitchen – she’s a shudra & we are Iyers. But they do make tea for her and I can definitely take her a cup, no problem there! I mean, yes, there’s lots of hypocrisy in the way we live our lives in that rural mileu. But nobody really notices – its become too routine, and they’ve been conditioned to accept it as normal. Besides, it is not the USA, it is rural India ie. 100 other pressing problems, the last thing one wants is to bring up controversial non-issues like caste. When it comes to paying for the schooling of the maid’s children, house repairs etc. my grandparents have done much more than anybody in her own caste! “market mechanisms do this a heck of a lot more effectively” – yeah right, this sort of supreme idiocy can only happen on SM. You try getting my maid a loan from the bank – they won’t touch her with a 10 feet pole. There are no market mechanisms or microcredit, not in that part of rural India. You can’t just take some juicy newsbites & extrapolate that everybody in India has an ICICI ATM card. For the vast majority of blue-collar labor, nothing really has changed. Sure, they were bare-feet and now they can afford a hawai chappal, and that may be progress for some, but it can’t put your kids through school or repair a leaky roof. Despite differences of caste, people live amicably and economic interchanges occur to mutual benefit. Sure, everything would be peachy if the maid walked into the kitchen and sipped tea just like anybody else. But then, how many homeless people do you know who walk into Bill Gates’s kitchen and sip tea ? Or your kitchen, for that matter ? Here in the USA, you have an economic caste system. Back home, it is socially stratified. Both have drawbacks. Both are non-issues compared to other pressing concerns of the masses. Both have some positives. Like I really like the fact that in my gated community, I get to only meet couples who make upwards of 450K and play golf, not some trailer trash, right ? Who wants to break bread with gangsters from Harlem, yeah ? So then, tell me why my grandparents must let the maid sip tea in the kitchen ? Not that the maid herself wants to – I actually asked her once and she was quite horrified at the thought of it.
154 Ennis,
This is not a black and white issue, good versus evil, two party system dual issue. There are multiple sides and issues and nuances and shades of grey. There, I have exhausted all the metaphors I had:) It would be useful for people to question their understanding by direct experience barring which, they need to look beyond the dominant discourse in the west which has only led to muddled thinking and confusion.
Very disturbing video, Jakob. Feels like an entire lifestyle is being genocided. Much of the fault is with the government policies, e.g., getting their grubby hands on the temple money, but a lot of this is because of the sustained anti-brahmin rhetoric. The funny thing is that I’ve only ever known poor brahmins. I can only hope things turn around and there is more funding to keep the traditions alive. It’s pretty sad when you have to do some of the ceremonies and the pandits are barely competent.
Jacob
Thanks for bringing new perspective on the debate.
But first, lets explore the ‘conventional view’ between ‘caste and poverty’ relation. The hierarchical (social and economic) value assigned to each occupational right implies that every caste suffers in relative magnitude from exercising full rights and thus to achieve full potential. This situation, in a metaphorical sense, is characterized as a ‘square peg in the round hole,’ from an ‘efficiency’ standpoint. Merit in this sense is seen more as a function of inheritance rather than personal attributes.
Also, the market failures associated in caste based system not only affect economic growth, but also generate unequal income distribution and persistence of poverty. Caste-based division of occupations by restricting mobility and increasing transaction costs result in market and other imperfections. Thus, far from promoting competitive market condition, caste based division of labor and occupation creates segmented and monopolistic market situations and produces less than optimum economic outcome. (See Akerlof 1976, Scoville 1984, Lall 1991, and Ambedkar 1987).
By not permitting re-adjustment of employment, caste becomes a direct cause of involuntary unemployment among “low caste†persons and voluntary unemployment among the “high castes†(See Ambedkar 1987, Akerlof 1976).
Now lets analyze the video. It shows poverty which is accepted fact (40% live below some line), the message is Brahmin are also poor, they are forced to take up menial jobs, because of reverse discrimination in government policy. This argument in its logical conclusion leads to what Mayawati has offered ‘reservations to upper caste’ or dismantling whole ‘reservation system’. This logic assumes Poor A is equal to Poor B, because both are economically poor, ignoring the social poverty inherent in caste system.
But this debate will miss the bigger picture. It is about the priest talking about the ‘rain will stop’ kind of stuff. The question is not whether we believe him or not, but the question is whether he himself belive in it. I doubt whether he believes in it himself, but the fact that he is making such statements imply the need for some serious priest reforms. He should be free from the compulsion of sustaining a vitual monopoly of culture on his shoulders. Like any other monopoly, the priesthood has been in decline, losing respect. For those who harbour any notion of cultural revival should focus on reforming this system, becuse what is important is not ‘whether Brahmin is occupying spiritual space’ but rather how this ‘spiritual void’ can be filled.
In this context, I request to DC
I wish you could take more serious notice of not only what was on the past but the contemporary notion of spirituality too. Are today’s new-age hippie are somehow conected to democratization of spirituality? I leave this question to you.
Here’s an article in 2002 from an Indian news source about violence against Dalits in Rajasthan:
Here’s an incident of caste violence from the same article – again, I can’t vouch for the accuracy of this account:
It seems like caste remains a problem for some.
I did not blog, comment on or even READ this thread until now– and I got dragged in to it. How is that possibly fair?
Do you know me? Were you there when I wrote MY post? No. What makes you think I didn’t ask an actual Iyer about this, before writing? Because I did.
Beyond that, this is all moot because MY POST WAS ABOUT CASTE IN AMERICA, but you’d have to see past your own irrational bias to absorb that. Perhaps I should state it once more, with feeling:
MY POST WAS ABOUT THE CASTE-HANGOVER IN THIS COUNTRY. NOT INDIA. AMERICA. WHY IS MY GENERATION SO CONSUMED WITH CASTE, IN AMERICA?
Hope that clarifies things for you.
Anyone following the whiteness studies discussion here? In the comments, the blogger makes this statement:
Indian Islam has a caste system far worse than what Hindus have. The upper caste are called ashraf and the lower caste are called ajlaf. (There is an even lower caste of untouchables in Islam.) The ashraf belief they are of Arab/Persian/Turkish/Pastho descent, while the ajlaf are those native Indians who converted. Among the ashraf there is a 5-tiered hierarchy, with Syed being the top-most as those claiming to be direct descendents of the Prophet. But my analysis of the South Asian Studies research programs and various human rights reports show that such themes are absent or very mildly treated. There are now many Indian ajlafs who are emerging as leaders of what they call Dalit Muslims. One such book gives data to show that dalit muslims are far worse treated by their upper caste brethren than dalit hindus.
There is another article referenced there, an interview with a documentary filmmaker who’s done something on caste:
You travelled across different states to shoot the film. What was the most amazing discovery during the making of the film? What were the shocking ones?
The children. Their inability to figure out who told them about their caste but at the same time their complete awareness of the whole issue was simply mind-boggling. On the other hand, what really was a sad experience was to find that untouchability exists in Sikhism, a religion which was founded as an answer against the caste divisions of Hinduism. In Amritsar, we found a Gurudwara which had two separate doors, one was meant for the Mazhabi Sikhs and the other for the Jat Sikhs. There have been cases where Mazhabi Sikhs have tried to take offerings from the other door and were beaten up. One was aware of untouchability in islam and Christianity but to discover it in communist Kerala was shocking. They even have separate cemeteries for the untouchables there. Even worse is its existence among different sub-castes in Dalits. Again, there are instances where a Harijan boy has refused to drink water from a Valmiki boy.
Is the youth more aware and untouched by untouchability?
On the contrary, the youth is more biased today. They feel that if we talk about untouchability and caste system, we will perpetuate it. This mindset is much more common among the urban youth. And they take such a stand because they have not been given a platform to discuss and debate. Even in a prestigious institution like JNU in Delhi, it is a revelation to see caste system work.
Tambram:
After reading Post 158, let me ask you this: Are you really angry at Anna and Ennis? It’s just that you are tired of brahmin-bashing, isn’t it?
An important point that must be remembered is that before the division of Uttar Pradesh, the state contributed the maximum number of MPs to the Lok Sabha. The same remains true even after divison. The Brahmins make up more than 10% of the population and are an important political group. This in turn correlates to those past Prime Ministers who were brahmin, most of whom were elected from UP. An exception to this is P. V. Narasimha Rao who was elected from AP, were Brahmins are not a politically significant.
Tambram – Anna’s right, it’s only my thread which addresses your issues, not hers at all. As I said earlier, leave her out of it, this is an Ennis thread. She’s talking about caste in the USA, you’re talking about caste in India. That’s this thread, not that one.
To PGW, No anger at Anna/Ennis, don’t know them from Adam’s oft ox. Brahmin-bashing is fine too. If you live in India for extended periods of time, you realize that things are so bad somebody must be bashed from time to time just to keep some level of sanity. Politician bashing, corporation bashing, Bollywood bashing, USA bashing, Brahmin bashing, why not ?
Caste, dowry, most of these concepts make perfect sense when seen from within the context of those practising it. I cannot imagine any of the people in my village living without caste, they would be completely mortified at the thought of it. At the same time, it is a total non-issue because they have completely internalized it and moved on to other pressing problems. You can’t really fathom this contradiction, you have to live in it & see it from within. Otherwise it just looks bizarre and silly. I mean, I get this woman’s fury when she says, in underlined bold caps no less, “Why is my generation so consumed with caste in America ?” Why indeed? Go play with your Xbox or trade some call spreads on cbot. I mean, 82% daily returns on .DAWEC ? Jesus! Me & my casteist fob colleagues are making 5 figures on a daily basis messing with the DIA, and many of them can’t string a straight sentence without tripping up on minor syntactic hoops. And we fuckers live and breathe caste. Our spouse has to be not just the same caste but the same subcaste, the same minor gothra and other substratum nuances. And we all take a nice fat lumpsum dowry, with the bride’s needling no less! Yeah, get this, the bride bitches to her beau that he must demand a larger dowry from her father, so she gets her share instead of all the money going to her brother & her other sisters!!! That’s how sophisticated they are. And invest it all in optionsXpress and go crazy with these mindboggling returns, while 2nd gen broke NRI gradkids go on their liberal harangues about something as complex as caste while simultaneously acknowledging “this is all moot” !!! If it is moot, go do something else. If it isn’t, ask people who are living breathing examples who simply don’t care a hoot about it, because like you said, “This is America!” If you are in America, go make some real money and eat Apple Pie and pin those little flags on the shirt lapel and watch baseball and Nascar and ok what other American cliche do I know that I can use here to grab cookie points ? We casteist fuckers are doing all that, on a daily basis, because that’s what America means to us – money, fast cars, 75mph on highways, porn and McDees. When we go back to our villages after the H1B expires, why, its caste time! Back to vadamal gothra and abasthamba soothra, yajur veda pithru darpana mathram, yay!
Thanks Ennis for the thread, Jakob and DC for responding It did engaged me for the day. Best
Xtraview
Do you know me in real life? Because if you don’t, your naked and unnecessary hostility towards me is rather disturbing. “Go make some real money”? What, now you know my checking account balance? Iyer, please.
Tambram —
That’s not what Anna said at all. Her point was simply that if you’re talking about the salience of caste to life in India:
That’s irrelevant to life in the USA, right? Unless your village is in America.
So why not leave that thread out of it? The rest of your comment is a completely off-topic rant that has nothing to do with what Anna wrote in her thread, there’s no need to put really ugly words in her mouth, it’s rude. Your fixation is really puzzling.
Tambram
Your post did make sense to me. I hate to say this but it feels like a ABCD/FOB gap. They are the precocious twice-born 2nd Gens. Was Naipaul not confronted by the same mixed feelings about India? Of how desh should be or how they think it is versus all the weird tangents life takes back home.
Speak for yourselves…please other wise generalize with stats (and give us the distribution while you are at it)
And I hate to say this, but I think the entire concept of an ABCD/FOB gap is essentially bullshit. It’s a convenient way for misanthropes on either side to minimize and stereotype the other, since that’s easier than grokking how similar we actually are. But that’s another post entirely, one for both of you to misinterpret if it ever gets written.
Folks,
While the discussion is fascinating, how can we justify allowing free- for -all bashing of one particualr group of people in the name of free speech ? Look at any of Prema’s comments here and see the level of vituperation against ALL Brahmins instead of against anyone who practices caste based discrimination.
If this discussion was about racism, for example, no way we would have allowed anyone to make anti-white statements without calling them out on it.
How can we expect to have a healthy debate on anything if we resort to the same kind of name-calling and hatred against one group of people that we so vehemently protest against when directed against our brown kind in totality?
Runa – I did ask Prema to tone it down. It didn’t go entirely unnoticed.
This has been a pretty free-wheeling thread, including people who say that Brahmin claims to superiority are fraudulent and brahmanical rule oppressive to people who say that casteism, untouchability and dowry are irrelevant social issues in India and any concern with this issue comes from ABCD failure to understand Indian life.
Why TF do you keep bringing up their names over and over again if they are not a part of the discussion. I know these people IRL, so stop talking smack, you do not know them. End of discussion.
Ennis, I think the most of the posters comment(s) is not relevant and is derailing the thread.
Too bad for you. Can I get you a sprite? A Pepsi maybe?
I am almost exactly what you quoted. H1B, Vadamal, Abasthamba etc. etc. etc. but that is where the similarities end. I have said this a few times, but given the fact that you are new here, I am going to repeat it.
My family has a bible and a quran in the pooja room. Most of my friends have been from other religions. All this while my grandmother had to be madi everyday in the morning when she did her pooja, hell if I touched the thulasi maadam without taking a shower, I got spanked. I have been there and done all of that.
Every single day I am thankful to my parents and my friends. I can’t remember the last time I asked someone what caste they were, I could care less. I look at them as people.
If you cannot get over it, it’s your own problem, is it not? Stop blaming society and your “village”.
You have been given the opportunity of interacting with other cultures, meeting people from there and tasting their food. You have seen way more than your parents could ever dream of. If you still have problems and want to stick to your “village” mentality, be my guest. But remember, you are the only one you can blame, no one else.
Ooh and stop giving me this BS about you have to live with those restrictions in India, I have lived there for 22 years of my life and I cannot remember the last time I met someone and wondered what their caste was.
Thanks Ennis.
My philosophy has laways been “Hate breeds Hate”.Thats why it makes me uncomfortable when stridency overtakes sensible discourse.
dc:
“The main positions at the large South Indian temple that I go to are not held by any uppercastes and three of the five founding members were not brahmins either-and they held quite a bit of sway even till now.”
I’d be curious to know a) how much personal wealth has anything to do with that and b) whether the political sway those people held also translated into power over how ceremonies were conducted, layout of the sannidhis, etc. As far as I can tell, everyone still defers to the most orthodox brahmin when it comes to temple ritual and to the most wealthy board member, regardless of caste, when it comes to political decisions.
Echoing Karthik, I was going to say that there are a lot of Indians living in India who don’t give a flying f…ck about caste. True, there are others who would like to do the same but don’t have the choice (but guess what, they are not generally the kinds who can post on blogs).
“Maitri – Please dont take this the wrong way. But would you say (for example) the practice or Madi or not eating at non brahmin peoples houses or food cooked by non brahmins is a different manifestation of Hinduism or just an outdated practise of treating women and non brahmins as less than equal? Doesnt holding on to some practices like these along with other benign practices like listening to Suprabhatam or Vishnu Sahastranamas, going to the temple etc make a follower complicit in something that is inherently wrong?
I am all for celebrating ones identity, but unconditional celebration of all things in the past without reflection is just blind ritual not an identity.”
beige seige I know your question was directed towards Maitri, but I’m going to jump in here. I think a huge part of the struggle in eradicating ridiculous practices like Madi is that there are increasingly few people who know what the Shruti literature/Divyaprabhandams really say and what outdated social practices have been co-opted and spread by the so-called religious. One piece of the problem is that fewer and fewer people understand Sanskrit or pure Tamil; but I would say an even bigger problem is the fact that followers of “Hinduism” (whatever the hell that is) have not been the biggest fans of education. Everything is “do as your parents tell you,” and it’s been that way for generations. Only now, as more people reject religion, are people of my parents’ generation beginning to realize that parental superiority isn’t going to cut it any more. My parents have been taking a lot of steps to study our texts, and what’s been the result? Only the elimination of foolish rituals and discriminating practices that only now they admit were never truly a part of our sampradayam. I think that if the older generation is interested in keeping their traditions alive, they will need to learn more, educate their children, and encourage their children to look further if certain practices don’t seem fair or worthwhile. At its core, I don’t think “Hinduism” is a dynamic religions, but, there is no reason that someone adhering to the philosophy of the scriptures cannot adapt it to modern life. I didn’t really articulate any of this well, but I know that in my community, positive changes are being made.
Sorry people. The gap (ABCD/FOB) i was referring to was on how we view the issue. Its not a wisdom/understanding gap. You view it a certain way and some other people might hold a different view. So do you wish to eradicate me?
I’m claiming no points for having lived in India, observed caste and even accepted it. But again, accepted it in a progressive sort of way. I’m not endorsing the hierarchical layers or the horrors of discrimination. For me it is a community. Why do your heckles go up for a caste based community while it seems ok to have Family/Religion/Language or Sub-continent based ones?
And if you started off the discussion with the notion that caste is wrong and only creeps would advocate it, then why even give us a voice?
and before some enlightened FOB arrives to berate me for saying that FOBs even care about caste, let me ask the enligtened FOB — what % of you would actually get married without kndowing the caste of the opposite party? Well being enligtened you would not care but please look at the matrimonials in some desi rag to know that caste is part and parcel of the biodata along with complexion and such.
Karthik, I can’t be bothered to buy bible & kuran for puja room. Neither am I infinitely thankful for this opportunity to interact with other cultures, not am I complaining about my village or its “restrictions”. I’m here due to economics, I might return out of immigration hassles. I don’t see caste as a restriction, just an integral feature of life back in India. It is so thoroughly internalized nobody bothers to ask people what caste they are ie. in the same sense shopping in malls in the US is so routine you don’t ask your neighbor if he got his undies at KMart today. You don’t give a shit about malls, we don’t about caste either. Caste is so passe is what I’m getting at. Just about every festival/cultural event back home is caste based,untangling the whole mess is not worth it. People just live their lives & move on to other pressing issues, like lack of reliable electricity or the unreliable buses, uncouth autorickshaws & whatnot. It is only here in the US & on SM that caste is actually a discussion topic. Back there we just live caste without making it an issue. As in, I’m not going to invite my muslim friends on Krishna Dasami & bother to explain what the whole thing means. Why should I, when I have enough Hindus eating freebies on this excuse ?:) I’ll save the muslim for some easier festival like Diwali. If I may get a tad personal, your post sounds like you are some refugee to whom USA has given a permit so you are so thankful & grateful for the infinite opportunities, you are keeping this bible & kuran to prove what exactly ? I mean, you know you are so open & liberal minded, we get it, why rub it in so thick ? Just live your life. If you don’t grok caste, fine. Some do. Let them do it.
kuran
never seen that spelling before!
“I’d be curious to know a) how much personal wealth has anything to do with that and b) whether the political sway those people held also translated into power over how ceremonies were conducted, layout of the sannidhis, etc. As far as I can tell, everyone still defers to the most orthodox brahmin when it comes to temple ritual and to the most wealthy board member, regardless of caste, when it comes to political decisions”
a) the main founder of the temple was a Chettiar-as far as I know, he was a chemical engineer at the time-it wasn’t so much the money as for the fact that he 1)spent more time than anyone else in working towards making the temple a reality back in the 70s 2)he was well organized (to be fair, there are plenty of criticisms levelled against him also) b)with regard to money, most of the people who become chairman or chairman of committee X tend to be people who give annual donations but also those who spend a lot of time as well. You get a spectrum-some are wealthy doctors/business folk, and others are just middle class engineers. Currently the main people are a Pillai, a Rao, and an Iyer.
Going back to orthodox brahmins, there was a very orthodox Iyengar lady who had given a ridiculous amount of money and desperately wanted Sri Rama to be in a separate Sanniddhi away from Murugan. Plus, she wanted a separate mandapam and sanniddhi for Mahalakshmi. This really pissed off a lot of the Shaivite Tamilians, most of whom were not brahmins, and she didn’t get her wish. In terms of how ritual is performed, that is more or less left up to the pujaris-no one is allowed into the sanctum except for them-even the most orthodox Iyers, Iyengars, Niyogis etc.
however, certain groups have their influence in the temple. Telugu Vaishyas had their patron deity installed, Nairs demanded a separate sannidhi for Ayyappan.
Also, on a side note, my grandfather was the head of the Tirumala Tirupati Devasthanam for four years. Caste wasn’t a barrier there.
Just out of curiosity, what does your mom think of Dalits?. Have you ever seen her offering coffe / tea to the Dalit workers in the same cup that you use.. The reason I’m asking is because Mudaliyars are one among the other upper castes that hijacked the social justice movement and turned it an anti-Brahmin one. There are two types.. veggie Mudaliars / other non-veg Mudaliars and they are pretty high on the land-owning and richness scale. I think veggie Mudaliars are the worst in “casteist” feelings.. Please don’t take offense. I’m just curious.
these caste threads have been very interesting. sent me off to wikipedia many a time! that being said, in honor of these threads i’m going to have some food with a bunch of friends of various provenance where we eat out off each other’s plates. let’s hope there’s no oral herpes 😉
Let me break it down for you.
Granparents – grew up around Brahmins, plenty of restrictions on what you can and cannot do. Parents – spent most of their adult lives around people other than Brahmins. They hold a lot of what my grandparents are but they are also smart enough to accept, respect and pray to other gods. Because as far as they go, a god is a god, even if he was not “recognized” by their holy books. My generation: Grew up almost exclusively with Christians and Muslims. I went to Catholic schools till my 8th grade. So when I came here, my envelope of understanding grew. I am thankful, because I can look at people and identify them as people rather than as representatives of a particular caste / religion or nationality to a lesser degree than my parents can.
You are the judge on how right / wrong this is. All I can say is that it is like being in a relationship just for the money.
I agree that we do not discuss it as much back home, most times, we accept it and move on. But you have to agree that there are lots of other times when caste plays a big role and is a topic of discussion. Every election in Tamilnadu it is a big deal. Ask the oldest people in your family as to why they vote for Jayalalitha? They will tell you. This is just one simple example, you and I know that we can quote 100 more off the top of our heads.
Besides, what is wrong with others (SM & the US) wanting to know why and how (in situations where caste is a big deal) it is an issue. What is wrong with people knowing more about the intricacies of the situation? Besides, this entire discussion was about caste here in the US. If you are here purely for economic reasons and want no part of the culture, you are not the target audience, you probably should not be discussing this.
This compounded over years is the problem Islam is facing. People did not (and to a large extent still do not) know about their culture, their traditions. Do you see the trouble it has landed them in?
What is wrong with inviting your Muslim friend and explaining what is going on? If anything he is going to learn something that he probably did not know about. As long as people are not educated, you are going to live on your side of the city (or earth) and they are going to live on theirs.
If that is what you want to do, I am no one to advise you against it.
I am thankful not to a specific country, but to the cultures, the opportunity to observe them from such close quarters. Without that opportunity, I would, like many others be looking at Iyers, Iyengars, Catholics and Muslims, instead of looking at people. I keep the Bible and Koran not to prove anything. My parents keep it in the pooja room to give those holy books the same amount of respect as they would to their own idols and gods.
After you. If they do “grok” caste, let them discuss it.
brown: Here’s what I found in Patwant Singhs book The Sikhs on Brahmin domination. Its actually similar to Ennis’s data above:
1866 British Judicial and Executive services. Hindu members 1866. Brahmins : Nearly half. Madras Presidency 202/297
1947 India’s Independence: Indian Civil Service officers: Brahmin 226/349 – 65%
Thirty five years after independence (early 1980s) IAS (the burra sahibs in charge of the “steel frame of the state” Brahmins : 2376/3300
These figures may have changed since the publication of the book but FWIW:
Presidents – Brahmins: 5/11 Vice Presidents – Brahmins: 6/10 Prime Minsters -discussed above.
Reservations have changed much of this, but the common perception of a numerically small percentage of Hindus wielded a disproportionate hold on power is based on at least some eviedence, its not merely rhetoric.
btw, on a serious note, ritual pollution/food taboos, etc., aren’t limited to hinduism obviously. muslims outside of a south asian context engage in this sort of thing on occasion as well (e.g., see inquiries at fatwa.com, “is it permissible for me to eat in the house of a kuffar?”). some orthodox jews have similar attitudes as well. the point is that no matter that in the USA there are immense monetary distinctions between groups/classes, in terms of equality before the law & god(s) we are putatively the same. our “essences” are all equally clean and non-polluting. i think for many non-hindus the curiosity of the hindu religion is that the divisions and boundaries which are so common across religions are recapitulated within a religion. part of it is obviously the multifaceted nature of hinduism, caste barriers are common in other cultures as well (burakumin in japan). i remember being invited to a shabbas meal once by a jewish friend. there was an orthodox rabbi there, who blessed the meeting, but refused to eat. later i found out that the presence of myself (a gentile) and a man whose mother was an unconverted gentile (he was reform, who accept patrlineal descent), made him wary of the kosher status of the food. i recall feeling somewhat offended, though the sentiment was understandable in the context of his religion. it was particular irritating because i knew one of the other “jews” was actually a big fan of bacon whenever we went out for breakfast, but someone his presence wasn’t “impure.”
Yes Razib, it’s quite interesting.. we got thousands of years of history behind. 🙂
I was thinking Prema was going overboard until TamBram showed up. Now I think we need people like Prema.
I was thinking Prema was going overboard until TamBram showed up. Now I think we need people like Prema.
i don’t know man. prema (surely this is “macacaroach”) makes plenty of valid points, but with a lot of venom, and goes way overboard. i don’t think that the rhetorical tactic “converts” many, and those who agree with the general thrust are already “there.”
That youtube video about the plight of brahmins was oddly touching and sad.
Razib, what about Bangladeshi society? Any caste-like distinctions among the Muslims? I recall reading somewhere that the VAST majority of Bengali Muslims are considered almost like one big homogenous caste, without internal divisions (except economic/educational, etc). I’m sure the Bangladeshi Hindus are divided into castes. Are you aware if that’s true?
Just out of curiosity, what does your mom think of Dalits?. Have you ever seen her offering coffe / tea to the Dalit workers in the same cup that you use.. The reason I’m asking is because Mudaliyars are one among the other upper castes that hijacked the social justice movement and turned it an anti-Brahmin one.
Not my mother, but certainly other members of her family looked down on Pariahs. Yes, lets keep it real. Brahmins aren’t the only ones capable of bigotry. Non-veg Mudaliars btw.
Thanks risible. I knew the answer. That was why I advised Prema to use the generic term “upper caste” instead of focussing on Brahmins.
Tambram,
I’m interested to know more about your village. By your description it sounds like an ideal place where everyone feels happy in their pre-ordained positions. How long is the village from a nearby town / city ?.. Do you know if there are any educated “low caste” villagers?..
Razib, what about Bangladeshi society? Any caste-like distinctions among the Muslims? I recall reading somewhere that the VAST majority of Bengali Muslims are considered almost like one big homogenous caste, without internal divisions (except economic/educational, etc). I’m sure the Bangladeshi Hindus are divided into castes. Are you aware if that’s true?
i honestly don’t know much in detail. i know that my parents had brahmin friends whose caste prejudices they were shocked by. there are distinctions based on “good family” or not, and i think some of this has to do with how “islamic” (read: any hint of persian or turkic?) the background is. an uncle of mine, an imam at a mosque by profession, did tell me that “america is good because people don’t care where your family is from. here, if someone from a ‘low’ family rises high people will ask, ‘who does he think he is?'” that suggests to me that people know who is “high” and “low.” i asked a cousin of mine about this and he says people in the local area “just know,” but he wouldn’t go further. since it is outside of religious sanction it seems that it has to be something you have to investigate to figure out. my parents are not the type to explore or talk much about the familial past, they seem to think these fixations aren’t too relevant or useful in this country (they are more preoccupied with maintaining our family’s religion, something they’ve failed in reference to their two eldest children). knowledge of caste is something i’ve always read that muslim browns have, but it isn’t something i think will be passed on to future american-brown generations because it is without religious sanction. i know the hindu caste origins of my family before islam in some branches (e.g., my paternal grandmother’s family converted when she was 2 or 3) because of one reference by each of my parents (with my mother she divulged the traditional surname and profession, and i looked it up on google under traditional names of bengali hindu castes). in contrast, i do know that i am descended from this or that pir, in part because when i was very young we went on a pilgrimage to a shrine dedicated to an ancestor here or there. so like i said, i think the perpetuation of caste (or, frankly quasi-caste, in the caste of syrian christians whose religion is contextualized in a hindu surrounding culture) in this country has to have a religious rational that transcends proximate utility.
p.s., if my kids ever ask what caste they are i will have to explain that they’re just brown (ok, half) 😉 because in amerika, thatz wut really matters at the end of the day. but then as i said, i have little affinity with my blood forebears, so it is a no brainer for me.
Thirty five years after independence (early 1980s) IAS (the burra sahibs in charge of the “steel frame of the state” Brahmins : 2376/3300
I had promised that I would not participate on this thread.
However,
These figures you have presented are completely bogus. Completely bogus.
Why? IAS also has had Jains, Sikhs, Christians other high-caste Hindus (excluding Brahmins), and schedule caste and tribe Hindus. Do you really think, they (non-Brahmins) made up ~900 of entire civil servants in 1980s. There are families in India that have produced dozen civil servants from within one extended family, and trust me they are not Brahmins.
Why again? Please read the history of reservations in India, and the 1st amendment of Indian constitution.
In fact, the bar has always been lower in UPSC exams for certain sections of the people (society), especially three attempt rule, and age limit. Why don’t we visit UPSC website (the horses mouth) to double check.
Direct quotes from UPSC (Union Public Service Commission – the governing body that has always hired boxwallahs) website
Now, to an Indiana University site that discusses the history Indian civil servants:
BTW, Lal Bhadhur Shastri was a Kyastha.