Welcome to Sepia Mutiny. If this is your first time visiting and you found us by reading the MSNBC/Newsweek article which commenced with:
The bodies had barely been removed when the racial epithets started pouring in. Cho Seung-Hui, the 23-year-old identified as the killer of 32 on the Virginia Tech campus, may have lived in the state since his elementary school days, but to the bigots in the blogosphere it was his origins in Korea that mattered most. “Koreans are the most hotheaded and macho of East Asians,” wrote one unnamed commentator on the Sepia Mutiny blog. “They are also sick and tired of losing their Korean girlfriends to white men with an Asian fetish.“
then please understand two very important truths:
1) Four out of the five comments which followed that quoted ignorance repudiated it consummately…
For shame.
This entire post decried stereotyping, and look at what you wrote about Koreans. My thoughts are with anxious students facebooking each other, heartbroken family members and everyone else affected by this tragedy. How can yours even go there? [SM]
2) “one unnamed commentator” does not speak for or represent this amazing, progressive, close-knit community
In fact, the views in the soundbite which MSNBC/Newsweek opportunistically and irresponsibly highlighted are NOT shared by the vast majority of those who write, comment or lurk here; they are the exception, not the rule on a blog which was created to enlighten, not divide. We are saddened that such a reputable and established source of news would misrepresent our site’s purpose and imply that the words of a rogue commenter are somehow indicative of the work we tirelessly try to do.
The bitter irony of this situation is that this website exists to create positive change and yet we were mischaracterized by an article about the valid concerns of the Korean American community after Monday’s massacre; as South Asian Americans, we sympathize and understand such issues because we are far too familiar with the concept of “backlash” ourselves.
We pray that Korean Americans are spared what Balbir Singh Sodhi suffered, that the rage which is to be expected after something so senseless isn’t misdirected so that it harms even more innocent people.
Just as one anonymous person who isn’t even a regular contributor here shouldn’t tarnish the reputation of an entire blog, one troubled, lost soul who took his pain out on innocents shouldn’t tarnish the reputation of an entire ethnic community. We are all suffering; let’s put aside the generalizations, stereotypes and impotent rage and work instead towards healing ourselves, our communities, our world.
::
This is what they have to say for themselves:
Dear Mr. Reeves,
I appreciate your note. Our intention was not to chastise Sepia Mutiny in any way–many blogs have been receiving derogatory comments, and Sepia is just one example. I think that anyone who visits the site will quickly find out what you speak of: that it’s an open forum for commentary, and with that comes the possibility of potentially-hateful comments. We would hope that our readers who are concerned about this site check it out and find that out for themselves. Unfortunately, unless we’ve introduced factual errors into a piece we do not print retractions, and we stand by this piece. I appreciate your input and interest and will keep it in mind as we move forward in our coverage.
Respectfully,
Jessica Bennett
Thanks for writing them, Maurice. We appreciate your efforts to rage against the useless, sloppy, too-proud-to-admit-they-erred machine.
No Chill, I feel shame for you because it’s obvious that you have an axe to grind. I let Prema’s comment stand because I prefer dialogue to deletion; others have agreed that it was the enlightened thing to do. But let me guess– because I’m the one who made that decision, you will find fault with my choice to initiate dialogue and everything else I am even tenuously connected to…
You are twisting my words– I’m sorry that you dislike me so much you are making this personal.
Take your issues with me offline, please. My email is public.
chill: I completely disagree with everyone here that this was shoddy journalism.
So reporting on a bigoted comment with numerous comments against that view right afterwards leads to a responsible journalist saying: “but to the bigots in the blogosphere (the next blog mentioned is Sepia Mutiny) it was his origins in Korea that mattered most”
How is such a genaralization of a disparate comment NOT considered shoddy journalism??
Nice.. a judgment call to leave the comment for purpose of dialog is laziness?
With regards to “Chill”, all I can say is:
what can you reasonably expect from MSNBC? The great, harrumphing gas-bag himself, rush limbaugh, calls mainstream media, “the drive-bys” as they tend to zoom past the story and stop only so long as it garners ratings. A pretty apt description of the ‘journalism’ at issue in this post. If there is no backlash, there is one less thing to cover and a few minutes less of blabbing from their anchors.
I listened to the the press conference given by VT’s head of PR today and he mentioned the NBC ‘late breaking story’ before promptly throwing up his hands and leaving the building (according to mac watson at 1140 wrva–admittedly a conservative radio hub). Were they playing this for ratings?
Firstly, I would like to say I do not hold any personal grudges against you. I do resent that when I wrote something supporting Huma and criticizing you for jumping down her throat my comment was deleted. I would next, like to point out a contradiction. You wrote to Hema when she critiqued SM that
“We do not let hate speech like what you accuse us of tolerating stand– we ban and delete for it, with prejudice.”
When I suggested that maybe it was lazy of SM to let Prema’s comment stand and SM should be upset with themselves you write:
“I let Prema’s comment stand because I prefer dialogue to deletion.”
Lastly, why should I make my comments by personal email when you are free to trash any critique of your blog publicly? I support SM and sometimes agree and disagree with its writings. What I don’t like is closed minded thinking and this group mentality when the groups image is more important than an honest dialogue.
I agree with the points Chill is making. None of this is directed at you personally, Anna, nor at any other individual SM moderator/commenter. Given that the newsmedia are more likely to twist words than not, or at the very least be indifferent to context, certain measures can be taken to protect SM and also to make SM a more respectful forum. Comments denigrating people on the basis of their race should be deleted promptly. They do not further dialogue.
ANNA, I was just talking about the string of posts directed at Huma, of which your post was one, but by no means the only one. I think the points brought up are totally valid, and you’re right – this blog community is unique and amazing, and you absolutely did not deserve to get broadsided/attacked by either group/person. I also think we are all very ramped up right now, and just wanted to avoid any unnecessary terseness, especially with first time posters… maybe because I just did this on another post and am projecting my own feelings of “My bad”-ness. 🙂
No offense or harshness meant, just a request for us all to take a step back during this incredibly high-stress time.
Nice.. a judgment call to leave the comment for purpose of dialog is laziness?
So, lets agree that this comment was left for dialog sake. I don’t have a problem with that. I only mentioned removing it when it was earlier suggested that racist comments are deleted by SM. If this comment was left intentionally by SM what is wrong with MSNBC then referring to SM to suggest that this dialog is happening? Yes, MSNBC is looking for the negative and they could have written that others are defending the Koreans but they are trying to highlight the backlash and are picking and chosing phrases from online. This one that came to their attention. This is not the only thing they have used to support their article.
And am I a troll because I disagree? Its too bad this happens on all webistes. Write something liberal on a conservative website and get trashed. Write something conservative or restrained on a liberal website and get trashed.
To take the point a step further: I’ve noticed some very derogatory remarks on this blog against blacks which were not deleted, and Oneup and the other black commenters can back me up. If some story breaks involving African Americans, and some nasty comments pop up here again, do you want SM to be named again as a source of such comments? Better institute a no-tolerance policy for racist remarks. (Btw, the one comment I particularly recall theorized that only poor white trash women would ever want to marry a black man. It was never deleted.)
Folks – the line between deleting something because it is close to being considered hateful & vile, and letting it stay in the interest of free speech and letting there be a dialogue, is a fine one. And any blog as public as this has every right to determine their level of responsibility and which side of that line (if any – IMO how they/Anna handled it is admirable) they fall on.
Railing on the SM folks for letting it stay, and even openly discussing whether that was, indeed, the right thing to do … in hindsight, is just immature. Freedoms et al notwithstanding – because that isn’t the issue here – it’s the malicious quoting-(and-representing-)out-of-context by the MSNBC “reporter”!
poor chill. so utterly put upon. I would remind you that arguing this point to the death is about as unproductive a line of inquiry as is possible. It serves no purpose and there seems to be nothing that can change your mind about how we ‘sheep’ here at SM ‘baaa’ when anna tells us to.
choooo shad.
There my friend is the problem. They DID NOT suggest that dialog is happening, they suggested that we here are bigots. Catch my point?
Oh come on, people. Read the article, reflect, and stop harranguing the mutineers. They do more than enough for us already, and often TOO MUCH for us. ANNA was trying to let us be grown-ups and use a moment of ignorant posting as an opportunity for growth, education, and conversation. This is not laziness at any level. Wow, she must have been super lazy to moderate throughout the day and leave numerous comments, right? It’s not like she doesn’t have a full-time job and a million other things going on. Jeez.
Please think a little bit before making such judgmental comments. I’m not saying we need to kiss ass, but some empathy, good manners, and gratitude goes a long way. We are very much guests of the bloggers and should respond in kind.
There’s no need for personal attacks on anyone, including the mutineers. But there should be a review of policy regarding these kinds of comments. Guilt by association is only too easy for the newsmedia to establish these days. And obviously SM is above the radar.
I put up a diary at Daily Kos just to draw more attention to this:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2007/4/18/195120/773
I did not read that article and think MSNBC is saying SM is full of bigots. It stated that there are bigots out there in the blog world. I think most people who are online can understand that. The assertion by everyone here that SM will be perceived as bigoted and the emphasis on this last point instead of concern over the point of this article is worrisome to me. I think SM posters are more worried about their reputation and not about what the MSNBC article is talking about.
Lastly, I would like to say I do not think Anna or any SM bloggers are lazy. That was a poor choice of words on my part. But, I don’t support raling against an article for being lazy because they quoted a comment on THIS site and so referrenced THIS site. I was using the words used by SM posters to make a point about SM. SM cannot get up in arms about a comment on their own website being referenced to their website and call that lazy journalism. If it is their policy to remove such comments than they should stand by that and not start attacking “lazy journalists”
I agree with chill that ANNA has contradicted herself in regards to deleting or allowing the post to stay. However I am understanding of this because as many posters have commented, there is a tough line to determine what should be posted and what should not. I am appreciative of ANNA for taking on such a tough role.
There are pros and cons for both sides. Complete censorship means none of this would have happened but would also mean abuse of censorship in regards to removing comments that can further a discussion in one’s eyes but not in others. In regards to racist comments and stereotypes, I personally believe it has to be taken case by case. In some situations, such comments can provide no help of insight into a discussion while other times it helps us to understand each others’ sometimes flawed views of the world and gives us a chance to do something about it.
Classic example of ANNA doing the right thing by not deleting a stupid comment: This fueled a positive reflection and story
Censorship is something that shouldn’t be decided on an absolute rule. It’s a complex issue especially in the blog world.
people just stop already, ANNA does a great job along with other bloggers here, let’s keep the trolls out.
Also — more directed at Huma’s comment, maybe I should just let it go — for someone who seems to know about “white privilege” isn’t a little interesting to you that Newsweek decided to highlight the bigotry on a brown peoples’ blog as opposed to the bigotry say on, I don’t know, uhm, Debbi Schlussel’s blog? I mean obviously the white media establishment relishes opportunities to call out non-whites when they are racist.
If you read ONE comment on a group blog and conclude that it represents the sentiments of all bloggers and commenters on a site, you ARE extremely LAZY.
If you go through HOTAIR, SCHLUSSEL, MALKIN, etc you’ll find a lot of xenophobic, racist, myopic, ignorant comments sprinkled LIBERALLY throughout–in that case, you really could say that those sentiments are not out of line with the bloggers’ opinons. That would not be lazy.
If you read ONE comment on a group blog and conclude that it represents the sentiments of all bloggers and commenters on a site, you ARE extremely LAZY.
muralimannered, I agree with you. My point was that I did not read that MSNBC article and think this. I do not think that most people reading that article will think that. It was pretty clear that one commenter wrote that and that there are bigoted bloggers out there and that this one comment was an example. As to why they chose this comment, I don’t know. I only know that the concern MSNBC raises is an important one. And that at a time like this for SM to be more concerned about what will people think about SM is … I don’t even know what to call it.
for someone who seems to know about “white privilege” isn’t a little interesting to you that Newsweek decided to highlight the bigotry on a brown peoples’ blog as opposed to the bigotry say on, I don’t know, uhm, Debbi Schlussel’s blog?
The article also referrenced facebook to a great extent. Is that a brown people’s blog?
Are you really that invested in being right that you don’t see what’s really going on here? They are not concerned about “what will people think” out of ego…they’re concerned because they work hard, for nothing, because of love for a cause of sorts and their efforts are being legitimately affected. While you may be able to interpret things properly and not assume things about this community based on that intro, I don’t know that you’re in the majority.
Chill: I disagree with your view that most ppl will read the article and think SM is not bigoted. The genaralized statement MSNBC make is SOLELY with Sepia Mutiny. Even if it was unintentional, the result is singling out this blog.
And why do you assume that defending a wrong perception of this blog community means that we don’t care about bigotry? Have you not read SM before??? Are you asking that we ignore certain wrongs b/c the article had a higher purpose (which some disagree with but I did applaud the article’s intention) everytime we defend something NOT so important? I don’t think ppl defending its community is something you need to lose sleep over.
Can anyone show what in my post constitutes “hate speech”? At worst you can accuse me of picking the wrong time to bring up a well known stereotype about korean men, which is not necessarily a negative stereotype either. Certainly this machismo was seen as a positive, admirable trait when koreans were defending their stores with guns during the LA riots. The only obviously negative stereotype in that post was that of white men who have a fetish for east asian females. Clearly my sympathies were with korean (and other east asian men) on this point. I did not and still dont see my post as anti-korean at all.
What MSNBC/Newsweek indulged in was at best sloppy journalism and at worst a vicious, calculated attempt at character-assassination of a reputable blog. When they judged my post thusly: “but to the bigots in the blogosphere it was his origins in Korea that mattered most” they were lying inexcusably. Firstly, at that point Cho’s identity was not even known. I was speculating that the shooter was likely a korean based on his description as an asian male and based on the (korean) name that was first mentioned but quickly removed by wikipedia. These facts were known to anyone who was following the events unfold. The angst of east asian men losing their women to predatory white males can be confirmed by visiting asian forums on the net. I mentioned that because of the early reports that the shooter was reacting to losing his girlfriend.
It seems to me that the responses to chill’s arguments above are not quite straight.
I agree with most of chill’s assertions. MSNBC’s journalism does not seem all that unreasonable/shoddy to me. There is nothing wrong with what they said. I myself was surprised that prema’s comment was not deleted, even before the msnbc report came along. The comment was left hanging right there, and it probably very well was the best example of a ‘bigoted comment’ against koreans in the blogosphere in this specific context… And they just cited it as an example. Those who are accusing msnbc so vehemently, just think about it objectively for a moment. I think the response to mauricegreeve’s letter is very apt, and should’ve been received in good spirit.
I don’t think ppl defending its community is something you need to lose sleep over.
I agree with you on that. But, at the same time I disagree that MSNBC’s statement was an attack on the SM community. The SM model allows any poster to make any comment. It is mostly uncensored, which by the way I support. At the same time I don’t think you can have this model and then be so incensed that someone used a comment here as an example of what is out there on the internet. I think that so many people here feel like a family that they cannot bear to think of anything negative against “the family”. Since I don’t feel like an SM family member (but do read it regularly) I didn’t feel the connection to the extent everyone did here. Sometimes its important to hear that point of view — of some one who is not personally vested in something. I am not trying to invalidate anyones sentiments here. I started to write strongly in particular because Huma who tried to assert herself in saying SM doesn’t always live up to her expectations was written back to in such a condescending and offensive manner when her initial remarks were neither. I wrote to support Huma, saying that because she critiqued SM is no reason for attacking her and my post was deleted. That makes me think that SM has certain priorities and their image is one of them.
fyi: The troll’s comment was deleted and so were the three comments which responded to it, including one from MohanMooty and the two from Shailee.
I for one can tell you that Koreans are good people,I spent alot of time in Korea when I was in the Army,I personally hope that they all don’t get lump into they “oh damn they are all killers and loners” and I say that as a Blackman who has had to shoulder his fair share of stereotypes.
Prema:
I do understand how you might think your comment is not dispariging. However let me explain why others may not. Why do you generalize “Korean” males (not a subset but the whole race) feel angry? This is a stereotype b/c even if you’ve seen comments by certain Koreans pointing this out in asian forums, why do you blanket such comments on the whole race?
I don’t think you’re a racist but I hope you see how the comment is indeed a blanketing statement which will be percieved by many as hurtful and racist.
Something good will come out of all this if we learn from this (even in our personal lives). This is what Sepia Mutiny allows us to do. I do agree with your point of MSNBC using your unfortunate comment to misrepresent SM.
That is completely wrong. We delete dozens of comments daily. You are not as knowledgable about what we allow as you seem to think. Our comment policy is elastic but it forbids plenty.
If these threads were a free-for-all, you would be right, MSNBC wouldn’t be at fault for a “random” sample. But they are not.
prema
i detailed the historical background to statements like yours here
I dont think thats the right interpretation. Look at it this way: they cited an example for a bigoted comment in the blogosphere. Now, don’t you think its a reasonable example?
…. doesnt that mean, the moderators at SM didnt think her comment was bigoted? Which actually gives more credence to the msnbc reporting.
You’re acting like that bigotry happened in a vacuum. It didn’t. It was immediately condemned. That is why this is bothering so many people here, but some of you don’t seem open to seeing it that way. The truth is, not everyone thinks like you do and people will associate bigotry with this blog.
Those of you who are arguing that this isn’t a problem are a little hard to take seriously because unlike the rest of us, you don’t care about this space, you’re unknown here so your intentions aren’t obvious. But hey, use my comment to shore up your point about how we’re too close and biased to see that cool reality only you contrarians are privy to…
That is completely wrong. We delete dozens of comments daily.
If this comment was left up intentionally than I feel even stronger in thinking there was nothing wrong with MSNBC referrencing this site when mentioning that comment. They simply used that comment to highlight the possible backlash against Korean Americans and then referrenced Sepia Mutiny because it was found there.
And, when I stated that SM allows any poster to make a comment, I stand by that. You may delete it after it is posted but all comments will initally be posted. That is what I was referring to.
A stereotype does not describe a group of people. And plenty of Black and Latino men can tell you about how the “macho” stereotype is also harmful and destructive. Just as, increasingly, plenty of South Asian and Arab men can.
And I could go on to talk about how the idea of the frustrated Asian male is harmful, but Tamara K. Nopper did a much better and more eloquent job of critiquing the media representations of this tragedy.
No, it was just incredibly stupid, and your overall analysis is so filled with ridiculous generalizations that it makes all of us look like fools – particularly those of us who might on another day agree with some aspects of your “critique”.
With reference to post #187, I didn’t mean to bold face the entire comment just the quote. Sorry, that was bad internet ettiquete.
You’re starting to sound like a troll– let me explain why.
Trolls cause drama just for the sake of being disruptive. You obviously have not delved in to what you are arguing so ardently about, because you are incorrect– the moderators here immediately condemned her comment as bigoted. In fact, two SM Interns independently called her out simultaneously, from two different cities, because they were so incensed. So did other commenters in this community. It was an opportunity to acknowledge the faults we have in our community vs sweeping them under the rug and I cannot believe that some of you dislike me so much, you would twist my words around when all I had was noble intentions wrt to commencing a dialogue about how wrong stereotypes are, especially at a time like this.
So no. It doesn’t give credence to the reporting. The reporting is still pandering to the lowest and an example of the laziest.
you’re unknown here so your intentions aren’t obvious
What can you possibly mean by that? What kind of intentions would I have? This is a blog. I am commenting on a blog. I disagree with many of you but certainly you can’t think I have some agenda against Sepia Mutiny?
Maybe that is the problem. Sepia Mutiny is such big part of your world that you are thinking of it in a vacuum. How many people reading that article focused on that one reference to Sepia Mutiny? And for those who were piqued enough by it they would certainly see for themselves that Sepia Mutiny is far from the bigotry embodied by Prema’s comment. Sepia Mutiny’s blogs are defense enough against any insertion that it is prejudiced.
The MSNBC article was not about Sepia Mutiny. It was about possible backlash against Korean Americans. The focus everyone here is putting on a possible backlash against Sepia Mutiny is misplaced, in my opinion. Yes, that is my opinion and I am asserting it here because I think its important when everyone is in such agreement that a differing opinion be considered.
I can see where Dharma Queen is coming from, on the bringing desi back thread one poster commented that all Black and whitemen lust after and use Indian women as sex objects and as a Blackman I was offended and that comment was not deleted.
Prema’s comment, and those like it, offer up sheer ignorance and simple-mindedness veiled as ‘dialogue’. She would have gotten eaten alive if the statement had been about South Asians. Please – why do we have to read this sort of rot at all?
I guess the question is, why do you think it is so important? I.e. are you asserting it because you feel like going against the grain or because it’s actually what you believe and you genuinely care that the vast majority of us seem to have it wrong? It always comes back to intention. It’s not a question of launching a jihad vs SM. It’s more like…are you sincerely concerned or just killing ennui by being a contrarian. Does that make sense?
It’s not that people here were so deluded that they thought the reference to their favorite timesuck was what the entire article was about, that random people who read it would immediately drop Newsweek and come here…it was just the insinuation was unfair. Why can’t you admit that the way they phrased it made it seem like here, such bigotry was the rule and not the exception? Because that is EXACTLY how it came across. And if 90 people all interpreted it that way then maybe it’s not an example of groupthink for you to rail against– maybe…you’re wrong.
Yes, you are right, and its a sad thing. The point I was making is that msnbc need not be so much at fault for this.
Why do you conclude that I dont think its a problem? I think it helps to analyze things objectively, irrespective of whether they are a problem or not.
I really like this blog and some of the discussions that go on here…(and I’m just a junior grad student from india with no ulterior motives/intentions of any kind as you suspect.)
No, I’m not doing that.
chill:
I agree that differing opinions should be considered. And I understand your frustration with comments that suggest otherwise.
I agree that it’s possible to read the MSNBC article and NOT believe that SM is bigotted like you suggest, but at the same time do you agree that it’s possible the article can lead to ppl thinking SM is a bigoted site? With the many points I and others have made do you not see this as a possibility? Are you considering this differing opinion?
Jesus Christ, what a mischaracterization and lazy bit of work by the journalists involved. I may have not seen it, but has anyone responded to MSNBC?
“I can see where Dharma Queen is coming from, on the bringing desi back thread one poster commented that all Black and whitemen lust after and use Indian women as sex objects and as a Blackman I was offended and that comment was not deleted.“
Ya know Doug, you can feel free to call shireen out on her utter bullshit anytime you like. That thread is still open. The bloggers got dayjobs, families, other posts to write, shit like that and as Anna previously said, sometimes:
exposing such people to different views is a good thing. It is important to call people out and have a dialogue with them and model better behavior vs being in denial about such strains of thought in our community.
..and if having some crap generalization put out there like shireen pains you- well you seem like a decent, civil guy and I’m sure you can put the strong yet civilized words together to let her know that not ALL black and white men are after desi girls, etc. That’s what meakes it a community, we look out for that shit, try to engage, take some of the heat off the bloggers, etc.
Doug, I am sorry. I am not familiar with that comment, it might have occurred while I was on hiatus, not that such a fact would make something okay. Each of us is responsible for moderating the comments under our posts. We all have full-time jobs. We do the best we can. When I saw something like this:
I banned her immediately, but I also used her ignorance as an opportunity to plead for tolerance and acceptance. That post had over 180 comments and I still get letters from people who were touched by the dialogue that commenced with such stupid hatred. I don’t get paid to do this. I spend anywhere from 40-70 hours a week writing and moderating when I am here. Those letters and the tiny possibility that I made something better are what keep me going. They make me feel like this labor of love is worth so much more than what it takes out of me.
Maybe I am naive, but I was buoyed by the experience of writing that post and addressing that nastiness directly…and I thought we could do more discussing and teaching, less banning and deleting. I probably would have written a post about the anti-Korean stereotypes many of you look down on me for not deleting. But I didn’t get a chance to– the Virginia Tech tragedy has consumed what little free time I have. I wish people would assume the best about me and what I try and do here instead of nitpicking or gleefully declaring that I have contradicted myself. I just do what I can. It’s easy to criticize what someone else pours their heart and soul in to. It takes a minute to tear hard work to shreds.
you know, my gf was just interviewed for the local paper and the reporter had a little notepad where she’d jot down random shit, and basically the “quotes” attributed to her in the subsequent article were just paraphrases (some totally false in intent as well as verbatim). she was going to complain, but all her friends said that that is always what happens.
anyway, journalism is rotten. blogs have their issues, this kind of crap gives you a reality check about what “mainstream media” is all about.