Welcome to Sepia Mutiny. If this is your first time visiting and you found us by reading the MSNBC/Newsweek article which commenced with:
The bodies had barely been removed when the racial epithets started pouring in. Cho Seung-Hui, the 23-year-old identified as the killer of 32 on the Virginia Tech campus, may have lived in the state since his elementary school days, but to the bigots in the blogosphere it was his origins in Korea that mattered most. “Koreans are the most hotheaded and macho of East Asians,” wrote one unnamed commentator on the Sepia Mutiny blog. “They are also sick and tired of losing their Korean girlfriends to white men with an Asian fetish.“
then please understand two very important truths:
1) Four out of the five comments which followed that quoted ignorance repudiated it consummately…
For shame.
This entire post decried stereotyping, and look at what you wrote about Koreans. My thoughts are with anxious students facebooking each other, heartbroken family members and everyone else affected by this tragedy. How can yours even go there? [SM]
2) “one unnamed commentator” does not speak for or represent this amazing, progressive, close-knit community
In fact, the views in the soundbite which MSNBC/Newsweek opportunistically and irresponsibly highlighted are NOT shared by the vast majority of those who write, comment or lurk here; they are the exception, not the rule on a blog which was created to enlighten, not divide. We are saddened that such a reputable and established source of news would misrepresent our site’s purpose and imply that the words of a rogue commenter are somehow indicative of the work we tirelessly try to do.
The bitter irony of this situation is that this website exists to create positive change and yet we were mischaracterized by an article about the valid concerns of the Korean American community after Monday’s massacre; as South Asian Americans, we sympathize and understand such issues because we are far too familiar with the concept of “backlash” ourselves.
We pray that Korean Americans are spared what Balbir Singh Sodhi suffered, that the rage which is to be expected after something so senseless isn’t misdirected so that it harms even more innocent people.
Just as one anonymous person who isn’t even a regular contributor here shouldn’t tarnish the reputation of an entire blog, one troubled, lost soul who took his pain out on innocents shouldn’t tarnish the reputation of an entire ethnic community. We are all suffering; let’s put aside the generalizations, stereotypes and impotent rage and work instead towards healing ourselves, our communities, our world.
::
This is what they have to say for themselves:
Dear Mr. Reeves,
I appreciate your note. Our intention was not to chastise Sepia Mutiny in any way–many blogs have been receiving derogatory comments, and Sepia is just one example. I think that anyone who visits the site will quickly find out what you speak of: that it’s an open forum for commentary, and with that comes the possibility of potentially-hateful comments. We would hope that our readers who are concerned about this site check it out and find that out for themselves. Unfortunately, unless we’ve introduced factual errors into a piece we do not print retractions, and we stand by this piece. I appreciate your input and interest and will keep it in mind as we move forward in our coverage.
Respectfully,
Jessica Bennett
Thanks for writing them, Maurice. We appreciate your efforts to rage against the useless, sloppy, too-proud-to-admit-they-erred machine.
I’ve just started commenting on this blog so here is my response as a newbie to the situation where SM let Prema’s comments stand:
I’m still very green about blogs, but I think their importance lies in the fact that everyday people can offer their opinions and have an “argument” defending their opinions.
I’m glad SM let Prema’s statement stand (although I find it utterly ignorant and ridiculous) b/c it offered a viewpoint that does exist. After it stood SM and others comments on the ignorance of the statements. I’m assuming if Prema kept going on about it – that’s where SM should start deleting. The different viewpoints were said and presented in the public space and now we can move on.
I disagree with Chill heartily, but I think she’s offering her viewpoint from a very nontrolling way.
I find the blame to be put on MSNBC – as others have stated they took a quote from a blog and used it to perpetuate the idea that there’s antiKorean backlash – it was so LAZY ; I think journalism is sooo important and such an important part of upholding a democracy. Since I find it so important to protecting human rights, I’m so offended about msnbc’s stupid random use of quotes. It’s sad that SM may get painted with the brush of ignorance. There’s other places that MSnbc could have gone to to try and site anti-Korean backlash – as others have already stated.
Why the need to “shout down”? Is it a peculiarly south-asian thing to do – to get emotional, upset, defensive rather than to just acknowledge that yes, we may have a bigot amidst us. Just as it is to acknowledge that Newsweek practices shoddy journalism.
The right metric to track is not the number of comments under this post but the number of “reader links” – bunker macacas, please note!
Zoroastrian (#250), one of the bad things about the main stream media is that it does not understand how some blogs have higher standards than others (just as it assumes any news source is equally credible, since, well, it’s a “news source”). It’s pretty much “All blogs are bad because anyone can say what they want. We’re a credible news source because this is our job and we know how to do it.”
If this is their general stance, then it really doesn’t matter what blogs they take shots at. It’s just a blog. Frankly, if they want to make a concerted effort to demean blogs, I don’t understand why they don’t just target LGF or similar places, as you said. So that can’t be their goal. I won’t be a conspiracy theorist and say that they want to discredit specific blogs. I think it’s more that reporters feel, “Blogs are this mess we don’t really understand. But many are they an easy source of incendiary quotes. Oh, that one is GREAT. It will really spice up my article intro.”
That, to me, is MSM vs. blogs. They need to understand why blogs are so important now. They need to understand that part of the reason blogs are so popular is because the MSM isn’t doing their job properly anymore. That’s a hard pill for them to swallow.
The problem with this post is that the author of the piece didn’t err. The story was entirely correct, as it highlighted the idiocy of a blog reader’s comment, not a blog. I think you’re being overly sensitive and defensive about this.
No, a quality of all decent societies are that they are self-policing. The “shame” factor is one of the most powerful motivators and protects against the need for authoritarianism which is often needed in societies where socially ignorant behavoir is tolerated.
As a subset of the larger American community, the Desi community (especially the 2nd and 1.5 genners who are better acclimated to American cultural norms), does and should feel responsible self-police to keep our subset’s societal values (and, yes, image) one that we can be proud of. I have noticed that most posters of offensive material are generally quite open and appreciative of being clued in to the inappropriateness of their comments – which is even better. Our ability to adapt and be open-minded is a big reason (of many) we are able to adapt into our “new” society.
You’re not obligated to particpate in the calling out of bad behavior, but since there is such a tendency to lump us all together, its better that we take care of our own problems “internally.”
Trust me, nobody, least of all me, thinks our little sub-culture or its people are perfect!
The MSNBC article states:
but to the bigots in the blogosphere it was his origins in Korea that mattered most. “Koreans are the most hotheaded and macho of East Asians,” wrote one unnamed commentator on the Sepia Mutiny blog. “They are also sick and tired of losing their Korean girlfriends to white men with an Asian fetish.”
I don’t think that I am being oversensitive b/c I believe that what was written by msnbc misrepresents SM. Look at the article – I realize it doesn’t state that the whole blog held this view – but I think that the writer has not qualified his quotation of a random quote from a blog enough
Like I said, I recently told an East Asian American journalist about this blog; as a young journalist she didn’t seem to look down on blogs, but rather saw it as a place to get grassroots news and attitudes. I hope if she reads that stupid msnbc article, that she still delves into SM and sees the many intelligent open-minded people that bring new ideas to the forefront in the blog discussions.
Stiga, I agree, in this case I think the “spice it up” angle came from using a brown blog – after all the media is well aware that anything racial will immediately draw viewers/readers more than any other issue. I think she was just trying to add another racial element to an already existing one. I also think it was somewhat pandering to the troglodytes who like to believe bigotry only exists outside of white, suburban America.
atcg, self-policiing is important so we don’t end up attached to these assholes: http://www.nytimes.com/2007/04/19/world/middleeast/19iran.html?ex=1177646400&en=345f560f1f01e34d&ei=5070&emc=eta1
SM zindabad; lousy journalism moordabad!
That phrasing would not serve the purpose setting up discussion of a possible “anti-Korean” backlash. It would have been more accurate, sure, but not serve the author’s purpose. If they were adamant on using the quote, they should have just used it, and not given the blog as a reference. Inclusion of the blog’s name as a reference gives the article no more journalistic integrity, and as many have stated, actually detracts from it.
It’s just intellectually dishonest to quote an anonymous poster on the internet, regardless of the nature of the host site, and suggest that the sentiment is representative or noteworthy. It would be like basing an article on an overheard remark from someone in a bar–while the author stands outside: “YankeeFan24 in Pete’s Tavern said, ‘Screw the Red Sox!'” This just isn’t quality source material or a decent peg on which to hang an article. The driving force behind the comment used in Newsweek was the inflamed nature of the language. Bennett has no connection to SM or to the commenter. She’s not even inside the bar, so to speak. It’s just journalism-by-google.
Anna’s tribute to Minal was deservedly lauded by rediff, a Top 100 site. The karma is cancelling itself out. Congratulations Anna!
HMF – I agree, what was the point of naming the blog source? If naming a specific blog, isn’t it better to name a blog in which the majority of people and the attitudes of the
Preston – yes, I agree so much with your well-stated view – journalism-by-google indeed.
HMF – I agree, what was the point of naming the blog source? If naming a specific blog, isn’t it better to name a blog in which the majority of people and the attitudes of the writers of the blog reflect bigoted statements ….
sorry I didn’t finish my thought
I think this is so she can’t be accused of making up the quote, and for all we know her editor insisted she name SM in the article.
My sarcasm-detector is going off…lol.
It would be a stretch to imagine NY Times readers to come to the conclusion that all Iranians believe in this brand of justice – even the tone of the article sounds like an exasperated westerner marveling at how the natives tolerate a justice system like Iran’s. One more datapoint on whether Western intervention into Iran will have any local support.
Coming back to this whole concept of self-policing, I just think that “shaming” a person for racial stereotyping and generalizations is better done through education and keeping an academic tenor. You can’t criminalize thoughts and beliefs, at least not yet. As an example, I haven’t seen anyone engage Prema on the contradictions of her beliefs – that Koreans are macho, which she claims is a positive and desirable trait and at the same time that they are sick of losing their girlfriends to White men.
Bottom Line- I would like to see a change in Prema’s beliefs not based on the votes arrayed against her own but on the strength of the opposing ideas.
Haven’t read all the comments, but I do think this is completely disgusting of msnbc. My sympathies are with all of you (bloggers and comments). I hope you realize that for every idiot maligning you, there are others who root for you. Don’t change too much, that is all I can say.
The problem is that this cannot be wished away as shoddy journalism. In my opinon, this sort of journalism is what you get if you are not sufficiently powerful. Ironically Jessica’s reasoning is not at all different from the bigots she is hitting.
And as desis, it is not the first time we are hit this way. I am terrified of every dowry story, every caste story that comes out in the media. To most people, it is not important who did it—to them, I just haven’t got the chance to do it yet, and it is only a matter of time before I do. And when you read some articles in media here, you can’t blame people for thinking so—these incidents are not projected as crimes, rather by implication or by silence, they are projected as universal problems.
The irony again is, it is not entirely false. Just as in the dowry/caste problems, it is also true that desis (not most ppl who comment here) are not particularly unbigoted. A lot of desis I know are pretty bigoted. So, while none of you deserve the label msnbc put on you, many desis actually warrant it—and since you are desi, you have to carry some of their burdens as well. Most people don’t care for nuances. Tragic, but true.
Horribly unfair as it sounds – out of every controversy comes publicity. And Sepia Mutiny has gained publicity, and anyone who visits this site will know that the views of the commenter are not the views of this site.
We’re with you all the way Mutineers! You’re doing a great job.
I am terrified of every dowry story, every caste story that comes out in the media. To most people, it is not important who did it—to them, I just haven’t got the chance to do it yet, and it is only a matter of time before I do.
The killer was an outlying whacko, much more the product of American culture than Korean. Surprisingly, he compared himself to Jesus. Had he made even a tangential reference to Allah in place of Jesus, the meme would have shifted from schizophrenia/troubled youth/educaton and counseling failures/ to “terrorism.”
“Prema” is right in that SOME Korean males are frustrated at the high percentage of white men marrying Korean women, but conflating it as “she” did with the murderous rampage is dangerous, irrelevant and racist.
..and they trip over themsleves to get that new angle. For example, this LAT article’s first line is really sloppy in its construction, IMHO. I had to read it twice.
Sorry mate, there was no sarcasm intended. What I mean is I like SM very much; I deplore the devious MSNBC journalist who published an article that, to my eyes, is clearly misleading.
Peace
To be fully honest, I have to respectfully disagree. I don’t think every example provided in an article has to be qualified that much. Most news readers familiar with the internet (which, if they’re reading MSNBC online, they should be) ought to be able to discriminate between a comment left by an anonymous surfer, and the general attitudes promoted by a blog itself. Of course, a lengthy disclaimer might have made things immediately clearer for the cognitively challenged, but I think the journalist did a sufficient job explaining the context. If he was truly dishonest and/or inept, he wouldn’t have mentioned that the statement was made by an anonymous commenter, only that it was found on the blog. And if anyone did get the wrong idea from the article, the nasty remarks about MSNBC aren’t going to help the blog’s image. It’s really not my intention to insult you, but I have to be honest. To me, this makes you look a little paranoid.
…and bad journalism can be dangerous too… read the account of how MSM picked up blogjunk and named Wayne Chang as the killer. Link
Abhi, totally agree. Props to Wikipedia editors for doing a fantastic job.
Drina, you spoke what i had in my mind. SM guys have the right to protest and all that – but this whole thing about established media against the bloggers and all that is off the mark atleast on this issue
Two things
1) It’s been said before on this thread, but the article only a single commenter– anyone even rudimentally familiar with blogs generally know that commneners a) do not speak for the blog, anymore than letters to the editor speak for a newspaper, and b) some commenters are assholes or trolls. There’s only a valid complaint if the article implied that what the commenter said was a general sentiment or implied that it was posted by someone actually affiliated with the blog.
2) If anything, the article is guilty of whipping up fear of a “backlash” where none exists– there are dick posts throughout the blogosphere but the response of 99.99% of people is going to be that the gunman was a lunatic and not to go making general conclusions about Koreans. I suspect that had the gunman been Muslim or from a Muslim country the reaction would have been different, with a lot more people making unjustified generalizations, but there’s no need to borrow trouble.
Speedy
Speedy
We just have different opinions on what’s equals good journalism and communications skills; And actually, if the journalists do bother to go back and read SM, I do think saying “nasty” comments like “stupid article” could influence those journalists in being more careful – that wasn’t actually my intent; stupid is the adjective that’s very apt (to me) in describing how that article was written. Najeeb I don’t think that it’s Msnbc v/s the blogs. I think it’s really bad journalism on msnbc b/c the way they have written it, is so misleading.
Well, I have no doubt that journalists feel threatened (and perhaps resentful) of bloggers. Because let’s face it, they spend years studying journalism and working their way up the media ranks only to be upstaged by someone armed with only a domain name. I’m not even denying that journalists make mistakes or sometimes use their resources improperly. I just don’t think this is what happened in this particular case.
My two cents.
@drina, i don’t think the bloggers are paranoid. the “spin” on it implicates SM in no uncertain way.
now the comment picked is supposed to be a representative of what is happening all over the internet against the koreans. and if such comments are so ubiquitous, why would the journalist quote a blog where exactly one comment supports her conclusion?
so why would any reasonable person think that SM is not along the lines of the quoted comment? in fact she wont. because if the comment is not representative, the journalist is being dishonest by quoting something out of context.
Exactly.
@drina again,
and this is not bloggers vs journalists. it is abt the msnbc journalist maligning SM.
So many stones thrown, i think we’re runnin out of stones and not petroleum.
stop bloggin start snoggin.
I hate to add more but there are rumors coming out of my temporal lobe that UPENN, in a response to MSNBC, has hired now both Harold and Kumar as instructors to teach a course on asian portrayals in the media.
I apologize to all living organisms.
ANNA is not wrong. It is personal. This whole MSNBC thing is personal for her. And all of SM. I can see why they are getting overly emotional. It’s been obvious to all that for so many weeks ANNA has been trying to get herself mentioned in the mainstream media (wonder why). Hence the obsessive posting. And all she got was a hardly insidious mention on MSNBC. It’s not shoddy journalism. It’s factually correct. Hey ANNA, you know how you’re always whining about how many hours you spend working on SM and how you seem to be equating it with slavery? Did you ever STOP to consider that maybe Jessica Bennett may also be slaving away at her job, as well? Where is your compassion for her mistakes? Anytime anyone calls out this blog’s “mistakes” it’s either a (a) “HOW DARE YOU I work so hard and spend 90 hours on here and no one cares and why do I put myself out there and WAH WAH WAH” response or (b) “Well, mistakes happen, we can’t catch everything, stop blaming US!”
IT’S YOUR BLOG. And guess what – you and Abhi have crappy attitudes. Stop shitting on the commentators so much, as if we should be GRATEFUL for your blogging on SM? As if it’s some selfless, charitable gift you are giving the world? Please. How much are YOU getting out of having this platform, when it’s obviously undeserved? How much are YOU getting out of linking to one of your scantily-clad pictures of yourself combing your hair or something when it has NOTHING to do with the post? How much do YOU get out of proclaiming that you are AKKA to the world and always being about YOU YOU YOU first?
This site would be pretty flimsy without the commentators. Stop acting like you’re not getting a shitload out of this, too. You constantly seek attention, you constantly get attention (deleted), you constantly have emotional breakdowns – you’re in your element. Stop acting as if this isn’t what you want.
Drina,
What’s in this for you? A quick search of the site shows you’ve never commented here before, except for this post. You’re awfully passionate about your pro-MSM position for someone who just dropped in to this free for all. Your own blog doesn’t have SM blogrolled, not that it should or anything, but I take it you weren’t a lurker…so…what gives?
And Huma, shame on you. That’s all that you deserve aimed your way. Troll elswhere.
Delete and Ban Huma, Please!
The distinction between “established media” and “blogs” is overstated. There are blogs that are more rigorous with journalistic methods and standards than some “established media,” and of course there are many that are not. Often the consumers of the two are the same, and expect the same standards from both. Increasingly the producers are the same as well. No “established media” outlet worth its salt doesn’t run at least a few blogs on its website. Some journalists are bloggers too, and vice versa — I became a blogger and a journalist at around the same time; I wasn’t one, then the other; and I continue to be both.
If you still wish to make the distinction between “MSM” and some ideal-type of the independently operated blog, the operative difference is oversight and accountability. The MSM outlet is accountable to its owners, funders, and/or shareholders. The blog in this simplified vision is accountable to no one. In neither case is there a fixed and enforceable code of ethics, conduct, or professional technique. A given outlet, corporate or blog, may have its own internal standards and methods, and may adhere more or less closely to them in practice, with more or less transparency vis-a-vis readers/viewers, but none of this is externally enforceable except in cases like libel, which are rare, extreme, and (properly) carry a high burden of proof. Beyond that the only arbiter is the marketplace.
In the case that started this discussion, the notion that MSNBC/Newsweek was somehow “out to get” Sepia Mutiny is plainly absurd and reflects a highly overstated vision of this blog’s influence or relevance in the big picture. Moreover, were they so motivated, they’d have done it more effectively.
It also seems clear that the MSNBC/Newsweek writers were hasty, even sloppy, in assembling their story and allowed themselves to be overly guided by the backlash angle to the extent of looking for content, any content, to substantiate their claim of an instant backlash rather than stepping back to see whether the backlash they predicted was actually taking place to any substantive extent. (This is where Mr. Kobayashi’s concept of “frontlash” deployed earlier in this thread is particularly helpful.)
Why did they pick the miscellaneous noxious comment that was posted here, instead of the similar ones that could be found at other sites? Who cares? It was there for the plucking, and they plucked it. My personal guess is that they found this comment attractive for their purposes because it was (a) written with fairly correct grammar and punctuation, which is rare on blog comment threads but refreshingly common here; (b) utterly kooky in a perfect-storm way (Korean hotheads! Stolen girlfriends! White men with Asian fetishes!) and hence, titillating; and (c) MAYBE and possibly sub-consciously, because it allowed them to pit one ethnic community against the other, possibly with the oh-so-ironic dimension of showing a community that has undergone racial profiling now deploying it against another. To the extent that (c) is a sport in which partisans (of any race or ethnicity) of the power structure enjoy indulging, it’s ugly and vulgar, but hey, again, the comment was there to be plucked.
So in my view, we (SM bloggers or commenters or partisans or friendly lurkers or self-appointed advocated or whatever) have no leg to stand on when we claim that MSNBC/Newsweek was unethical, rather than just sloppy and self-serving. We do, however, have plenty of ground for elevating our voices in indignation now that the Newsweek/MSNBC item ran in the way it did. After all, it did run. And it did result in presenting SM in a dubious light, to one extent or another. In an ideal world, we’d all be spiritually detached enough to let the whole thing pass by, but this is not an ideal world, it’s a media space made up of shouting and noise. I’m glad we’ve shouted back; now I suggest we move on.
Peace
I took a look at the article and was shocked by the lack of subtlety with which the bigotry meme was linked to the sepia mutiny blog. I think this is hard to chalk up to being a coincidence. A cynical view might be that the authors resent east asian men replacing brown men as the most threatening/foreign phenotype for whites in this news cycle, and wanted to link anti-east asian bigotry to brown people rather than to white people. In any case, I’m glad this isn’t one of those type news articles that introduce controversial memes but have no author byline. I think sepia mutiny and friends would be wise to track journalists Jessica Bennett and Noelle Chun and their past and future writings pertaining to sepia mutiny and desis.
Huma:
You have my permission to rant anonymously at ME all you want but have the decency to not insult innocent people when you do so.
I deleted the racist part of your comment because it was ugly and unfair.
The rest of your spew can stand– the next time I feel like quitting SM, your haterade shall restore my passion. I wouldn’t give you the satisfaction of leaving, so thanks for inadvertently providing an antidote to my occasional, “Should I stay or Should I go?”-malaise.
I love that my very existing bothers the shit out of you so much. It’s the best gift EVER.
To poop on!
The homeland security terrorism alert has been raised to colors sepia and jaundice.
it is safer in Bagdad. i think my time is done here. so long people.
Give it a rest, dude. No need for witch hunts. God don’t like ugly.
What with some of the people here bashing Anna all the time.
Last week at this time, I was attacked by some people on this website. It was Anna who came to my defense. This is despite the fact I have never met Anna or ever talked to her in my life.
So I think those people who are bashing ANNA need to start there own blog if they don’t like what she has to say.
You wonderful, great, intelligent, bright, articulate bloggers and pretty too, are shitting on us. Not noticed it myself.
No joke guys, keep up the good work. Rudie c (friendly lurker)
If its any consolation I read the article and didn’t connect Sepia Mutiny with bigotry. I do think there has been an over reaction too. I think some of the posters are getting too heated and personal but I do sense a very defensive attitude from SM bloggers too. Maybe we should all be open to a little criticsm? Although, I do appreciate the hard work every one puts into blogging here I think that’s not necessarily a defense in itself against constructive criticism. That being said, lets stop with the personal attacks – on both sides.
Janeofalltrades – post #33:
“It’s also possible, if not probable, that the whole “backlash against Koreans / Asians” meme is entirely a media-driven phenomenon.”
bingo!
recent history indicates media conglomerates fully realize that intellectually honest journalism – that taught in schools – is not nearly as profitable as gutter “trainwreck†journalism. the enormous financial/political success of FOX “news†in supplanting traditional standards of reportage with uproarious emotional opinion, has proved irresistable to the competition.
since it’s inception in ‘96 (yes “our telecom act year†– ain’t media deregulation great?) this success has spawned many imitators who struggle to fill the 20+ hours their celebrity anchor is not on air. some outlets are more brazen than others in their undeclared war on ethical journalistic practices, but to the detriment of supporters of democracy everywhere, none are immune. the result is predictable: most americans couldn’t find china on a map yet know quite a lot about the kindergarden anna nicole smith attended.
the planners in this war understand that a full-frontal approach is not feasible. that is, if the goal is to corrupt the new york times, one does not simply work behind the scenes to get frank rich or paul krugman canned – one brings in judith miller or armstrong williams to plant stories in support of the desired meme of the moment.
in short, MSNBC/N-WEEK has done nothing to earn your trust (for every zakaria, there’s a klein – for every olbermann, a buchanan). consider the zeitgeist – none of the usual outlets should be above skepticism.
cheers
Should they bash her there?