who wants to go to school with classmates packing heat [link]
My son did. A second-grader brought gun to school because she wanted to be more popular. Oh, and her mother was a cop. Eight years ago, my coworker’s baby boy was shot dead by another kid at his baby-sitter’s house. I see one or two pro-gun comments here. I want to know their take on this and what solutions they have. Respectful dialogue appreciated. I have no intention of derailing this thread. [link]
Fret not about derailing that thread, kind Shodan-san. I have felt sick ever since I read your comment and I think this discussion about guns is relevant and necessary. I can’t even imagine what you felt like as a parent, when you discovered that your precious baby was at school with another child who had naively brought such danger with her. As for what happened to your co-worker, that must be every gun-owning parents’ nightmare.
I once ended a relationship with someone which had some “promise” (i.e. an Orthodox Malayalee etc etc) because he insisted on keeping guns in his home. Even if he had children. I just think the potential for tragedy is too high when you mix the two; not everyone is always as careful as we all should be and children are inherently curious and often, quite clever. He wouldn’t compromise and neither would I. That’s how strongly I feel about the issue– and I know many of you have passionate views on it, too.
One of you had this to say, on the same thread:
I wouldn’t call myself pro-gun but I can’t go as far as saying “ban guns”.
I’m uncomfortable with laws that make it easy to obtain guns, getting them at the local superstore, Kmart Walmart etc is what makes me uncomfortable. I’d prefer to see stricter laws and federal laws to govern the right to bear arms and a person who wants to take up arms and it could be in a lot of different capacities, not always law enforcement, would have to go thru stringent regulations and requirements and training in order to qualify for it. [link]
What do the rest of you think? Several of you are so respectful, you are worried about derailing the original VT thread with this nascent discussion, so I thought I’d open a space for your dialogue here.
::
And one final brown angle to a post on guns in America; PSUBrown wrote in to ask if Andrew Arulanandam, the Public Affairs Director of the NRA was desi. When Abhi played provocateur and wrote about the “potential” need for gun ownership post-Katrina, this question came up in our comments section and the consensus was that he might be of Sri Lankan origin, but there was no confirmation. Other mutineers have asked me about this in the last 24 hours, so if one of you knows more about Mr. Arulanandam, speak up and enlighten us. And if you will permit me to end this post on a slightly lighter note, I put that question to you, our wise crowd because I’m sure one of you is related to or dated him; all Mutineers are two degrees apart, except for this notable mystery woman. 🙂
I once talked to a NRA member (I am not one, I’ve never touched a gun in my life). He mentioned to me that during the L.A riots, many South Asian store owners bought guns to protect their various stores in L.A neighborhoods. I honestly feel that I would have wanted to have a gun in the VA Tech situation and probably would have used it to protect myself and those around me. I also feel we’re addressing this issue too fast. We need to wait till the details all come out. Some European newspapers are condemning the NRA for allowing the assault rifle ban to be lifted. Mr. Cho did not use an assault rifle yesterday. Correct me if I’m wrong, but I don’t think a 9mm is an assault rifle.
Can you find any sort of study or statistics that supports this line of logic?
“Guns don’t kill people. People kill people. And monkeys do too, if they have a gun.” Eddie Izzard.
No, one weapon was “only” a .22 caliber handgun, one of the smallest standard bullet sizes.
Since this is SepiaMutiny, I’m sure many of our desi doctors will agree with me, or maybe not.
Surgeons performs surgery to heal a patient:
Thus we should ban all surgical procedures due to the high risk of error and the statistical rates that show that at least a 1000 people have died last year from surgery alone. Of course, the stats on people who have been saved through surgical procedures do not count. Only deaths count.
Either that or we make gun owners buy some kind of malpractice insurance.
Not on the topic of gun control, but related: Minal Panchal is grad student ‘The Hindu’ says may be among the deceased. Her orkut scrapbook’s already filled up with hundreds of messages. It’s kind of heartbreaking to see the initial concern turn to dismay and then outpouring of sympathy. This tinyurl redirect to her scrapbook may or may not work
Link: http://tinyurl.com/3bb8ml
These types of arguments hold little water in my opinion, the purpose of surgery is to heal, the purpose of a gun is to inflict bodily harm. It has no other purpose.
The intentions are completely different. Now doctors who have fradulent credentials or willfully screw up a surgery, yes, those should be held accountable. You may turn around and say, “Well, those who use guns irresponsibly should be held accountable.” And they should – but even “responsible” gun usage is far less advantageous to the individual, and society as a whole, as is “responsible” surgery.
The two aren’t even in the same ballpark.
49 Moornam
Once again, you have gone out on a limb and generalized cluelessly (oh, aren’t you politically incorrect?). Grigori Perelman wasn’t just lonely in some part of their life and “learn to work with people”; he eschewed almost all human contact and focused on his work for years. There are numerous such examples through history.
But anyway. Of course most killers are loners. Yes, some people are loners because they find their immediate society trite, suffocating, boring, and I pray to the flying spaghetti monster that such people continue to question oppressive structures old and new. But of course some are loners because they are disturbed and ill. If you said “disturbed people” I would have no quarrels with you. But in your eagerness to theorize, you needlessly insulted people who did no harm to you or anyone else, and who suffer everyday from the tyranny of the sociable. Doesn’t, after all, the smooth-talking MBA beat the scientist who did most of the work alone behind closed lab doors?
An excellent book on the history of gun laws in the US.
If there are any Sikh’s out there, I would like to know what your take on gun’s are? I am curious because Sikh’s carry a Kirpan(dagger) around for protection, if ever needed, and for other religous purposes. So, if a Sikh carries around a weapon for protection, you would think that they would be in favor of people carrying around gun’s for protection and to protect other. Am I wrong to assume this?
The gun issue is so complicated! In England gun’s are banned, but every person in England has had their house robbed, where on the other hand in countries like the USA, the rate is far lower. Is it because people in England dont have to worry about being shot, when they enter a house or is it something else?
Also people, who are trained to have gun’s get into gun accident’s all the time, now imagine if the whole damn population had one! There wouldnt be a person in America, who hasnt been shot. The funniest example is a video going around the internet, where a guy is giving a gun saftey lesson to kid’s and he end’s up shooting himself in the leg during the lecture.
Gun control or not, what is it about the United States that produces so many insane people? We don’t hear about so many school shootings from any other part of the world, do we? Does the US society in general somehow promote this type crazy behaviour in the name of “free speech”? Is it the general lack of direction for the young minds in US which allows them to go insane like these shooters? I sometimes wonder how and why the suicide bombers from militant groups across the world kill people by blowing themselves up – not sure if I completely understand that, but I can at least understand the motivation behind that – but what I can never understand is why these school shooting incidents repeat so often in this country.
torpedo:
Must’ve touched a raw nerve there.
There are two types of loners: One who wants to stay a loner to pursue art/science etc. And the one who wants to be social but cannot to shyness, fear of failure, etc. The question is: How to distinguish one from the other without significantly sacrificing the said person’s privacy? Colleges in the US are paranoid about student’s rights, even if it comes in the way of safeguarding other students and faculty lives. This needs to change.
M. Nam
NYT has a detailed article on the Cho’s roommates – including one Karan Grewal.
this is a great discussion. i’ve always been against guns, like someone said earlier just because the mere thought of having that kind of power in human hands is scary.
having said that, i find the observations of the differences between sweden, south africa, and canada to be telling of what truly matters in these conversations. do we blame guns? do we blame psychosis? or do we blame the system?
a quick study of the quality of life in sweden: The Swedish state is among the most generous in the scope of government services provided in Europe. These include tax-funded childcare, parental leave, a ceiling on health care costs, tax-funded education (all levels up to, and including university), retirement pensions, tax-funded dental care up to 20 years of age and sick leave (partly paid by the employer). Parents are entitled to a total of 480 days partly paid leave between birth and the child’s eighth birthday, with 60 days reserved specifically for each parent, in effect providing the father with two so-called “daddy-months”. The ceiling on health care costs makes it easier, relative to other nations, for Swedish workers to take time off for medical reasons.
Also: Both upper secondary school and university studies are financed by taxes.
Imagine if that was available in the U.S. – what different lives we would lead. How much closer and available would family be to children from birth to 8 years? Education and the stress of funding it would not be present, how would it be to have a nation with more educated people? It seems only to have positive impacts on society.
Just some food for thought…
Re: #65-
The operative word seems to be “tax-funded”, as in tax-funded childcare, tax-funded education, tax-funded dental care, etc. Today is tax day, and as someone who just paid a substantial sum of money to the IRS, I’m not sure I really want the system to provide me with a whole slew of “tax-funded” services.
Also, 480 days? That’s a year and four months of partly paid family medical leave? Wow. Unreal. I hope that means an employer may hire a replacement worker in the interim. Otherwise, just imagine the impact on productivity and the Swedish economy.
Are gun-owners a minority of the population? If yes, then, if the majority can live their lives without guns why can’t everybody?
And how much has the minority’s gun ownership contributed to making the majority feel safe?
According to a 2001 Harris Interactive poll, two of five Americans live in a home with at least one gun. The number is higher in the South than in the East.
If yes, then, if the majority can live their lives without guns why can’t everybody?
It’s really not a question of why the minority “can’t” live the way the majority does, it’s a question of why the minority should live the way the majority does. Isn’t modern government all about protecting the rights of the minority?
My opinion on gun control has changed over time. I do not see myself owning one, but I am neither for or against others owning one (well as long as it is in the hands of the sane).
And for the life of me, I will never understand assault weapons being made available to the general public. Make the ammo available only at firing ranges and make sure they use it completely before they leave. That might be a possible solution.
Just like driving tests become mandatory for older people, there needs to be some kind of a test for gun owners. Yes, it is inconvenient, but people need to look at the society as a whole.
If you want me to draw parallels, people who were upset at the heightened security checks after 9/11 over time understood that it was to keep them safer. When the TSA decided to ban liquids on carry on bags, people did complain, but most of them understood. I hope that increased scrutiny and security measures for who can own a gun (if implemented) will be taken in a similar vein.
Do we have too much of a conveyor belt approach to human problems? The guy once set fire to his dorm room AND was singled out by professor as being disturbed.
Wow Moor, your world is so simple. It must truly be a delight to be a part of it. Two types of loners. One type kills people. Second type studies art/science. Stands to reason, the non-loners are studying Wall Street Journal and making causal comparison between Switzerland and South Africa. While they’re at it, why not compile a list of the first type of loners, so we can lock them up ? Oh no, we can’t do that – violation of personal privacy. Who’s so paranoid? Why, its the colleges! Damn, the same colleges that have destroyed marriage as an institution by letting gays to wed! Perhaps the same ones that mess about with your pet project – Indick studies ? Or should that be Indic, I haven’t the faintest clue. You see, I went to one of them damn colleges, my brain’s turned to mush. But I think I can still spot a genuine Canadian male when I see one, instead of confusing him with a female Indian fob who spells bad, simply because he/she/it doesn’t fit into your incredibly simple world with neatly defined categories.
Do you at all have actual data to back up anything you write/say/do ? Can you categorically prove that had every VT student owned a 9mm, fewer than 33 would be dead ? Or can you at least prove the contrary ? You take accidents, which by definition don’t fit a pattern, and employ them in service of your neocon agenda. Why not just say the moon is made of green cheese ? I will literally take your word for it.
tambram,
If you’re a loner, spoorlam would love your company!
Check this out…
M. Nam
Let’s start with those who would love to wear open-toed shoes to work. I think we need to stop theorizing.
Let’s start with those who would love to wear open-toed shoes to work.
That’s right! Fight the power! Nothing wrong with nice peeptoe pumps!
I like the Wapo for this pic.
This is the photograph Neale is referring to— I put a screenshot of it in my Flickr photostream, since the front page of the Post will quite possibly display something different, very soon.
Honestly, I don’t know what the right answer is, but it seems like shootings in schools have reached a tipping point, almost. An Austrian friend mentioned how strict and long the procedure which includes an extensive psychological checkup to obtain guns and a gun license is in Europe, and I found myself nodding in agreement to this. I don’t have an intelligent opinion on this issue yet. Sadly, I believe that laws or no laws, illegal weapons will continue to flood this country and they will find a way to get into wrong hands, although perhaps having stricter rules for weapons may help curb this recent spate of shootings?
This kind of dichotomy is completely misleading…Yes, the person holding the gun pulls the trigger, but it IS the actual gun that fires the bullet. If thoughts could kill, my ex-workplace could be a cavernous echo chamber…it’s the actual instruments, at hand, that enable the most deranged, depraved and deprived folks to indulge in their murderous fantasies. All talk about Switzerland or Sweden or Israel is misleading…The US is neither a peace haven nor a homogenous society with overarching commonality of lifestyles and attitudes in its’ citizenry…The rationale for owning guns is solely based on the premise that citizen militias, with weapons, played a key role in the founding of the state. For all those who claim that it stops crime, please try and find actual verifiable stats, and also include, for good measure, how much damage has been done because of the “gun†culture…It seems, for people who support the right to bear arms, that the only rational reason they do so is because of romantic/historical reasons. A simple thought exercise: The US is, supposedly, midwifing freedom in Iraq, after brutal rule by a dictator that severely clamped down on the freedom of its citizens. Would the US government, and military, support a universal right to bear arms by all Iraqi citizens, subject to a few checks/balances?
Yeah right, tell me another one.
HMF, I know you weren’t serious, but I think the amount of derision people hold for the South is uncalled for and also out of place. In many ways, it is a deeply socioeconomic and simplistic way of relating to people who are, at the end of the day, people. I know the South is rife with issues, but I don’t think it’s any more appropriate to demonize them (or people in “middle America” or “Jesusland”) than it is to demonize others.
I used to be staunchly anti-guns, altogether. It wasn’t until I drove through some of the poorest parts of this country, watching people hunt for their food and scavenge road kill, that I realized that gun-ownership is absolutely necessary for some communities. At the end of the day a gun has no other purpose than to kill — it’s not the same for a knife or other items that can be used as weapons. I’m really torn – I’ve seen guns mow down my classmates in drive by shooting, and when I was little, our school went on lockdown more than once because of gang violence or someone fleeing the cops outside. Incidentally, it’s not like you can’t get a gun when there is a handgun ban – people who want to get their weapon are going to get it, law or not. At the same time, as was mentioned, it always took the police forever to get there. I guess that’s one of the hazards of living near/in the inner city, but it’s really shameful.
I personally feel that guns should be HIGHLY regulated. But, more important than guns, I think we need to really look at ourselves and ask what kind of world we live in where this kind of violence is sanitized, permitted, and normalized. Violence and murder in the U.S. is much higher than our industrial/economic counterparts. We’re also one of the only “advanced” country that practices the death penalty, sentences children to adult prisons, and kills people under the age of 18. I don’t bring these issues up to derail, but rather, to bring to light the fact that we’ve got SERIOUS issues in this country. I don’t think gun regulation or even a ban, per se, would do anything to stop events like what happened yesterday.
ST, I don’t pretend to speak for all Sikhs, but there are some very stringent guidelines to the use of the kirpan and who may/may not wear it. Not just any Sikh can go about carrying a sword (a kirpan is not a dagger, although it can be as small as a dagger). Additionally, Sikhs are only allowed to use their kirpan for self defense, and even then, it has to be the last option when all other alternatives are exhausted (think karate, your goal is to talk someone down before resorting to your training). There’s a lot of responsibility involved, and to date, no one has been attacked by someone wearing a kirpan in the U.S. If someone misused their kirpan I would think there would be an outpouring of condemnation from the Sikh community, in addition to ostracization. I understand where you’re going with this, but I don’t think that same kind of moral training, etc., exists for guns and gun-use in the U.S., and I don’t know that it would be appropriate, really.
In my home country Sweden, there are many hunting firearms — i.e. rifles and long-barrelled shotguns.
Handguns are not for hunting animals. They are specifically designed to shoot people at close range.
Someone asked: “Isn’t modern government all about protecting the rights of the minority?”
You mean, such as the rights of lunatics going on killing sprees? In this case the will of the majority overrules the minority: handguns on campus are a bad idea.
the only rational reason they do so is because of romantic/historical reasons
I just don’t think it’s that simple, and it’s not just for romantic or historical reasons. If the 2nd Amendment is repealed because it is anachronistic and unnecessary, then why not the 13th Amendment? I mean, slavery has been abolished, so why keep it? Some would say that we’ve got racial equality too, so the 14th Amendment’s equal protection clause is redundant and unnecessary.
If the rights protected in the Constitution are to remain meaningful, then they have to be kept. There is no reason the right to bear arms can’t be subject to regulation, the way the right to free speech is. But regulation rather than abolition is the key, IMO.
handguns on campus are a bad idea.
Nobody is disagreeing with that. In fact, Virginia Tech specifically prohibits handguns on campus.
Although Cho is being labelled as a south korean, resident alien etc. the fact remains that he moved to the USA when he was a child and has spent most of his life here.
Without the ability to purchase weapons (guns) that can kill easily, Cho would not have been able to cause the massacre (at least he would have had the resources to obtain guns and ammo illegally, a much higher bar to cross). Consequently, the environment (15+ years of american culture and laws) can be held (causally) responsible for this incident. When was the last massacre in South Korea? Suicides maybe.. Murders.. But I dont believe its that easy to own guns in most east asian countries (Japan etc). Arent there an incredibly large number of domestic tragedies in homes due to gun ownership?
A region that has fielded soldiers in uniform against the union (which in my opinion, is far more traiterous than Michael Moore or Al Franken could ever be), for the purpose of continuing slavery, among other reasons, is not “demonizing.” Demonization is done to place blame, I wasn’t blaming them.
But what I was doing, in a tongue-in-cheek, satirical, and perhaps ill-placed way, was calling out a region for their behavior. (Intolerance, Misrepresentations of Christianity [Falwell], segregation [Strom Thurmand], and yes, fanatic gun ownership [everyone], as you call… “issues”). If the south doesn’t want to be targets of derision, perhaps they should collective behavior.
meant to read, “perhaps they should change their collective behavior”
This Justice Dept. website contains a great deal of statistics and graphs on gun-related violence: http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/guns.htm
Quote: “The FBI’s Crime in the United States estimated that 66% of the 16,137 murders in 2004 were committed with firearms.”
Oh please. That moron Debbie Schlussel is not a Southerner. I could come up with an inane list of bad behavior from the North, but it’s just not worth it.
This argument for keeping guns on hand for protection is valid. However, what are the stats on cases where homes are burglarized and a gun was essential? How do they compare to the stats of people who are hit by stray bullets or children playing with guns?
There have to be more irresponsible acts of violence than self-defense cases.
I’ve never asked any of the parents of my child’s friends whether they have guns in the house. It just seems instinctive that if you have kids in the house, you wouldn’t. But, now I really have to think about it.
HMF, no offense, but that is a ridiculous attempt to avoid the issue at hand. You are more than welcome to continue splitting hairs however suits your argument, but the same reasoning you’re using against the South is what racists use against people of color, Debbie Schlussel uses against Muslims, and yes, the rich use against the poor. It is easy to look at the history of the south in black and white (no race pun intended), or on their behavior that way. Have people in the South done incredibly immoral and reprehensible things? Yes. But for that matter, so has every state in the U.S., whether through genocide, internment, terrorism (a la KKK), or otherwise. People loooove to point to the South’s institutionally racist history, but rarely do they point out that the same kind of institutional violence existed, although not always on as big of a scale (at the state level) throughout the North, and certainly in the West.
I’ve spent most of my life growing up in California and would identify as such. However, I am glad that I spent my early childhood in Arizona (not the South, I know) and Ohio because it taught me a lot more humility, kindness, and openness than I would have learned if I had stayed in the so-called “liberal, tolerant, and open-minded bubble” of the Bay Area.
I stand by my argument: it is simplistic to paint the South in such a way. And to be perfectly honest, I personally think this is why there is such a growing divide between communities in the U.S. There is a total lack of empathy paired with incredible hubris and elitism.
Oooh, another good one from local talk radio today, “That’s our God-given right to have guns in this country.”
headslap
Makes you want to slip some Logic in the water supply.
There have to be more irresponsible acts of violence than self-defense cases.
I don’t know if that is necessarily true. I wouldn’t be surprised if self-defense cases were underreported relative to senseless acts of violence, because the latter is much more sensational/newsworthy than the former.
Also, maybe the threat of a homeowner with a gun is sufficient to deter crime, so an actual self-defense shooting may not be necessary.
You know, I don’t own a gun, and in fact, I’ve never even handled one before. I used to be completely opposed to gun ownership, but my views have changed a lot over the years. I think it’s tragic how many senseless acts of violence are committed using firearms, but for every school shooter, there are thousands of responsible gun owners who have never committed any sort of crime with their guns. I don’t think all those people deserve to be condemned for the random acts of these shooters.
The issue here is really about the mental health of gun owners, and not so much gun ownership itself, IMO.
And to be perfectly honest, I personally think this is why there is such a growing divide between communities in the U.S. There is a total lack of empathy paired with incredible hubris and elitism.
Well said, Camille. As a resident of “flyover country”, I have been amazed at the sort of accusations that are leveled at “Middle America” on SM. Coastal elitism, I guess?
I cannot believe that conservatives in Virginia are going about claiming that it is precisely because of incidents like these that college campuses should not be gun-control zones. It is fairly evident that while fewer people might have been killed in the ensuing rampage, quite a few would have been killed, even if there was someone with a gun on campus to kill Cho. Perhaps a better solution would be tighter gun control overall so that people like Cho, who are emotionally unstable, do not have such a free and unfettered access to guns. There are more handhun related deaths in the US than in any other developed country. Just because it is enshrined in the 2nd Amendment, does not mean that it is still univerally applicable
Also,
It’s an unhelpful simplification. Also, it may be that serial killers prefer crunchy peanut butter as opposed to the smooth kind — that does not mean anything.
For the record, both Mozart and Einstein were quite popular with the ladies. With the exception of autisitc savants and some geniuses who are very socially impaired, most prominent scientists are quite social — they only choose to restrict themselves to insular, but tightly knit, groups.
Camille, don’t waste your time on this nonsense, my sister. Allow me to give it one shot:
HMF, you are embarrassing the site with your ahistorical, stereotyping idiocy, whether it is all serious, all in jest, or whatever blend of the two. Earth to HMF: The Civil War was 143 years ago. Earth to HMF: Many things have changed in the United States in the past 143 years. Earth to HMF: Much progressive culture, innovation, and creativity in contemporary American life comes from people and places in the states of the former Confederacy. Earth to HMF: Deal with it. And stop polluting this board with asinine generalizations that are offensive to anyone with a basic grasp of American culture and society today.
wow. all the kids are quiet now that daddy administered a spanking. i’m a bit afraid too.
you might prevent a number of gun murders (and suicides) by limiting legal access to guns (though most murders in ny and other cities are with illegal guns) but those lives are NOT worth the scrapping of a useful second amendment. The right to bear arms, to finally decide upon a complete personal sovereignty because for any number of reasons the government does not satisfy your sense of security, you don’t trust the government to protect you or your family(perhaps you’re black, arab, even south asian given certain not impossible circumstances), AND the government truly ought to have some sense of accountability to the peoples’ guns despite the feeling that non governmental individuals have no brute power to face a governmental machine, is essential, forward thinking, uniquely and philosophically American and ought to remain a right.
You would arguably “save lives” by scrapping the right to say or think nasty thoughts, including hateful speech, but you would be wrong to do so. It has been argued with little but some merit that locking up or banning Muslims from the U.S. would “save lives” from potential “Muslim terrorist attacks,” but the cost of so doing does not make it worth it.
Not really, the distinction is between behavior and essence of being. Slave owners, and debbie’s arguements are based on the latter. Mine aren’t.
You’re right, my bad, everythings yippy skippy down there. Maybe one of these days, I can be enlightened as to the great progressive nature of the south (not being facetious here, if my innate bigotry has shielded my learning of the great cultural and social contributions made by alabama, then I’d be the first to admit that’s not a cool thing) I’ll leave it up to you to decide the right time and place.
the great cultural and social contributions made by alabama
Harper Lee (author of “To Kill a Mockingbird”) is from Alabama. Hugo Black, a former Supreme Court justice, and noted defender of the First Amendment, was also from Alabama.
There are many others from that state that have made “great cultural and social contributions” too.
Now that the details are out this is what I find disturbing. There was a background check done on Cho and the State approved the purchase of his gun which he bought legitimately. I guess I’m confused because he was accused or did at some point set fire to a dorm room. I can’t tell if it was before or after he got the gun. If it was before then why didn’t that show up on his record as a red flag? If it was after why didn’t someone go looking for his gun and make him surrender it. For all intents and purposes it appears that the guy who sold him the gun did everything required by law and since the guy had no prior record of any sort didn’t do anything illegally. What none of these filters could do was get help for someone obviously disturbed from all the signs he displayed. This is the sad part of the gun argument. In this case it really wasn’t the simple access to a gun that caused this tragedy but the psycho who ended up with it.
I strongly believe in psychological accessment and training for owning a gun. Law enforcement requires it so why not civilians?
Harper Lee. True dat, I’ll give you that one. Hugo Black, according to wiki, was also a KKK defender and subsequent member. But in all honesty, I truly don’t want to continue this discussion here. The last thing I wanna do is embarass the site