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p>Okay, I lowe my Yindia and all, but these are the sorts of “news” stories which make me want to smack a few hundred million people upside the head. Come ON, Eileen. Yes, it was the wrong thing to do. Yes, it was crass. Yes, Indian culture demands modesty and decorum blah blah blah. But listen, shining India— if you want the world to take you seriously, try learning methods of protesting shit which do NOT involve screaming death threats and effigy burning, aight?
Pretty please? No? Sigh. I tried. Via the BBC (Thanks, JPT):
Actor Richard Gere has sparked protests in India after kissing Celebrity Big Brother winner Shilpa Shetty at an Aids awareness rally in New Delhi. Demonstrators in Mumbai (Bombay) set light to effigies of the Hollywood star, while protesters in other cities shouted “death to Shilpa Shetty”.
The protesters said Gere insulted Indian culture by kissing the hand and face of the Bollywood actress.
Indian culture was later overheard stating, “Gimme a frickin’ break. There are hundreds of other things I find far more insulting– Anand Jon, for example.” ShameShameShilpa responded thusly:
Shetty downplayed the incident, saying “it was not so obscene”.
“This was not such a big thing for people to over-react in such a manner,” the actress told the Press Trust of India news agency.
“I understand people’s sentiments, but I don’t want a foreigner to take bad memories from here. I understand this is his culture, not ours,” she added.
I don’t know Shilpaji…I think the “his culture, not ours” strategery is the wrong approach; everyone already knows that his culture is all cheee! . Why not enlist the Dalai Lama’s help or something? Isn’t that the whole reason Gere is down vith the brown?
Anyroad, if India had remained in the world cup, would the media give two tattis about this? A Cricket dilettante would love to know:
The kissing scenes were regularly played on Indian TV, with some viewers commenting on Gere’s actions, while Indian newspapers carried the picture on their front pages.
Now you know why the song in my head is…in my head (and in our title!):
Protesters said his embrace of one of the country’s leading ladies had been “vulgar” and demanded an apology from the film star.
Ha! Typical blame the victim/blame the woman mentality. What next, because of that flimsy outfit and all that lipgloss, she was asking for it? Oy, my head hurts.
Everyone should see the video clip posted by Chachaji (#45). That little clip itself offers up so much social commentary about India. First of all, Shilpa handled herself very well. I also agree that she spoke Hindi well. Gere behaved like a complete ass. Worse was the reaction of the idiotic crowds as well as the effigy-burners and the politically-motivated protesters. Get a life losers. Even worse was the Bollywood-bhangra dance skit…also, when a mixed crowd of what looked like Sikhs, Hindus, and a Muslim were burning an effigy or something, someone made a 12 o’clock (barah baj gaye) comment aimed at the Sikhs. The whole clip is so surreally ridiculous from beginning to end that it would be almost comical if it wasn’t so sad. Now normally I’m not the type to offer up feminist-oriented commentary, but it was also interesting to note that the audience was almost entirely male…which itself makes a statement about conditions in India. The place has a long way to go.
Ok so what’s the fuss about? It’s reactions like this that hold India back & then they wonder why Bollywood actresses can’t make it big in Hollywood! No one’s even want to get near an Indian actress now for fear of upsetting the conservatives in India. Perhaps more attention should be paid to the reason for Shetty’s appearance, ie: an AIDS awareness rally. It’s always two steps forward & one step back!
when a mixed crowd of what looked like Sikhs, Hindus, and a Muslim were burning an effigy or something, someone made a 12 o’clock (barah baj gaye) comment aimed at the Sikhs
Whats the origin of the 12 o’clock connection with the Sikhs. Where did it start?
Don’t worry, we are collecting a file on your work for future effigy incidents. Be patient. First is to destroy American Kissing Imperialism under the guise of Tibetan Human Rights. That is biggest threat at the moment. You are eigth or ninth behind all the traitors who work here, Wendy Doniger, Steven Seagal, Dalai Lama, and other rapists.
Hail Mogambo!
Defamers will be burned in effigy in the order they are received. Please stay on the line; your defamation is important to us.
Whats the origin of the 12 o’clock connection with the Sikhs. Where did it start?
I was talking to friend of mine who is an amateur historian. According to him:
During the height of wars of succession and rivalries in Mughal India (~1600 onwards), a lot of prisoners (men and women, often Rajputs, but not always) from these internecine wars who would be transferred to Kybher Pass or northwestern undivided India by the victors through caravans to banish them. Often sikh warriors would surprise attack the prisoner caravans to free them on route (through Punjab) at the mid night. Therefore, folklore grew that Sikhs really upset @ midnight, and these surprise attacks were made at that time.
Later, the folklore became a stereotypical joke. That probably no one really knows when that happened.
it’s actually a great story that seems to have gotten twisted around and turned into something hateful and mean.
Shipa Shetty! Hindu Virgin! Aiyyo Shiva/OMG. May be you are not aware that she dated Akshay “Casanova” Kumar, Any body who has to do anything with Akshay Kumar cannot be a Virgin (That includes his fans as well), But I agree to your point that only saffron balls are allowed to rape Hindu virgins.
Thanks Kush and HIbiyatch!
Before somebody starts protesting, I need to make this correction Sorry SpoorLam, Its not Akshay “Casanova” Kumar, its Akshay “Kama Deva” Kumar
So, anyone know if Richard Gere is still looking for Indian girls to kiss?
<:-))
Agree. it was totally inappropriate and out of place. Maybe he should try to kiss the Dalai Lama like that, or Angelina Jolie, or Gwyneth or a presenter at a Hollywood awards show. Fat Old Goat, he’s shorter than she is. Ashi, yuck!
Thanks chachaji — not yet up on YouTube?
I don’t know Anna. I have seen you write a lot of feminist posts. I thought you’d be more than a little upset with Gere’s “behavior.” Forget what Indians are doing; they are rioting for all the wrong reasons, as you pointed out.
However, I found something very troubling with the physical imposition Gere just carried out on Shilpa. I have written about it.
I had EXACTLY the same instant reaction when I first read about it.
Hmmm. Interesting point. I guess my perspective is based on:
1) her own words:
2) the fact that I didn’t watch a video– just saw two pictures after reading what I quoted above. Even after watching the video on your post, I think she was more stunned/amused than violated and scared? I don’t know, I’m not her, which is why I went with her take on it. I respect her enough to believe her.
3) the fact that at the end of my post, I did go there, even if only slightly:
🙂
oh yeah..Gere insults indian culture…oh but when Aishwariya Rai (who said she’d never do it) full on makes out with Hrithik Roshan on screen…isnt that insulting indian culture too???…lol
But it was a Big-brotherly kiss, no? 😀
@Mohinder… Didn’t some fundamentalists try to protest the kissing scene in Dhoom 2?
And would smacking really help the situation? Protests are so common these days… from v-day to PDA to GORA man kissing desi chica…
@walrus…yeah some did but it was barely audible and really nothing. I remember hollering in the theater with all the rest of my college friends when that scene came on..i was like..dAMNNNNN. We all have to agree that shilpa is definetly kissable though 😉
Mohinder, did you say that Ash made out with Hrithik onscreen? I thought she didn’t want to kiss on film.
Wow, if those protestors thought what Richard Gere and Shilpa did was insulting Indian culture, I don’t want them to know what I did last night…
No offense to any Bollywood fans, BUT I think those guys should have burned 99.9% of the “mainstream” Bollywood movies that are out there!!! What I find most offensive are the VERY gratutious displays of body and gyrating dances (for NO PARTICULAR REASON) in films made for the family to view.
Also, has an incident like this ever happened before (w/ an Indian celeb and an American/Brit man)? I also heard that Ash did not kiss onscreen (with ANYONE, no matter what background).
nicht gut! on a not so different note Anna has Shilpa’s lips.
Some people think Bollywood movies are “harmless fun,” BUT throw a fit when their kids want to go see anything not rated G or PG. Imagine a young girl watching that crap! What kind of image of women, male/female relationships is she going to be getting? Several people said that Bollywood cranks these out b/c they don’t know how to depict sexuality/sexiness/beauty in a healthy, realistic manner.
Richard Gere is just doing what any red blooded man has probably dreamed of doing. I don’t know much about Indian culture but why would some people get upset by that? I have watch maybe like one Bollywood movie(damn them movies are long and they be dancing and singing like a mofo in them joints)But I was told that they do not aloww kissing in them please correct me if I am wrong.
I meant to sat that I heard they do not allow kissing in them. Sorry for the bad spelling attack I was watching International fight league.
Doug, I think it depends on the censors. “Jism” (a terrible Bolly remake of “Body Heat” and “Fire” (an great indie film dir by Deepa Mehta) have kissing. These movies were not censored!
I meant not censored in India.
lol i just saw the video on access hollywood, hillarity! that too it seemed shilpa was resisting hehhe. @heuy, u didnt see dhoom2???
Ew. Some of ya’ll need to lighten up just a tint. It’s the oddest thing in the world — when a Bollywood actress endeavors in a bit of silly publicity, she’s skewered shamelessly and when a Bollywood actor endeavors in a bit of stupidity, people just look the other way.
Let’s be consistent. I didn’t know something as casual as a kiss was so vulgar. What’s next? Letting the women stay at home and make dinner while the men go poach dinner? And after dessert, we can all invent the wheel.
Power to Shilpa for having the good humor (and good career sense) to get some shutterbugs flickering away at her face next to an A-lister.
The behavior of these crazy right wing “hindus” is way out of character for Hindus. Are these extremists trying to model themselves after the taliban, a group of people which they probably loathe?
Most Hindus may have found Gere’s and Shetty’s behavior a bit racy but the majority of Hindus just ignore it. There are more important issues to deal with. Also, it is a bit hypocritical for Hindus to be prudish about kissing in public. What about the sensual images portrayed in some Hindu temples and the ancient Kama Sutra sculptures? Isn’t that also a small but significant part of Hindu heritage? Not too many cultures in the world show sculptures of men and women embracing (and what not) on their houses of worship.
Isn’t it just “Gere’s behavior?”
These guys don’t know jack shit about Indian culture. Its quite funny that whereas the British themselves moved away from their conservative Victorian ideas about the behavior and position of women in society, they managed to instill the same among Indians in such a way that we continue to be plagued by them today. On what basis is it against Indian culture? What does this even have to do with Indian culture?
It is things like this that sometimes make me feel we act like a bunch of culture-less people. Its a shame that a culture and society which was always open, rational and reasonable has been reduced to something like this.
I know this is a tried and tested argument, but the sculptures of Khajuraho and Konark Temples, the Kama Sutra, etc suggest otherwise. I’d like to remind these people that the Shiva Lingam is basically Shiva’s phallus entering Parvati’s vagina. Indian women pour milk over it and worship it as a symbol of fertility, since it represents the force of creation.
Check this out: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/f/f0/Khajurahosculpture.jpg
I didn’t word the last comment properly, but its in support of gm, not against him/her.
No Mohinder, I’ve never seen Dhoom 2 or Dhoom 1 for that matter. Looks like I’ll have to see it now.
Stupid villagers “paindoos” I think we should have more and more of this kind of immoral behaviour. Eventually the paindoos of the sub-con will give up burning effigies and have to come to the realization that we aren’t living in the middle ages anymore. More PDA please.
When our desh will improve. What is wrong in kissing???? Gere was just expressing his feelings in a filmy style…Hell with shiv sainiks….narrow minded buggers.
BAHAHAHAH omg they did this on the daily show 2nite..with their brown reporter reporting from “Mumbai”. Oh watch the video if u guys can, he grabs her ass too…@Sourav..very true..
Please, not with the Kama Sutra-Khajuraho-Lingam rhetoric!
So the Greeks and Romans had god on mortal action, homosexuality, Venus and Cupid — and I’ll bet they also went through a far more prudish phase than India now, sometime in their history. I’m not too familiar with Egyptian mythology, but of what I know, there is enough hetero-, homo- and auto-eroticism (in both myth and surviving art) to make most of us blush. And well, Egypt area is not exactly permissive now. Yes, they both switched religions along the way, but I don’t think that alone makes a big difference.
I may be wrong, but I believe that change in cultures as old and near-contemporaneous as these (Greco-Roman, Near Eastern, and Indic) is inevitable. Especially given the similarities of hisorical events (it is largely by chance that Hinduism survived, and Hellenic Polytheism didn’t, considering the encounters that the regions had). In other words, pretty much all the ancients went through some frisky, X-rated phases before becoming more modest over time… but you cannot selectively bring up those phases in the context of modern culture. Are you going to point this out to the modern Egyptians, as proof that they should loosen up? And to counter the argument that India is different from the other places because the religion has not changed since the birth of Shiva — well, hasn’t it, at least somewhat?
And regardless of all this, you have to be really naive to say it’s “a culture and society which was always open, rational and reasonable.” Come on, seriously. I’ll need a more expert historian/Vedic scholar to back me up, but I’ll bet we are socially way better off now than at most points in our history (yes, including the Khajuraho era).
I do think that contemporary India’s view of sexuality is seriously messed up, but I also think that saying that erotic sculptures and the Kama Sutra* are an important part of Indian culture is no better than people saying that kissing or V-Day is not.
I am very well aware of the Kama Sutra, Lingam, etc argument. For the same reason I started off with “I know this is a tried and tested argument, “. I do not intend to invoke a lifestyle that is centuries old. My problem with most Indians is their conservative Victorian thinking. Also, I have no problems in dealing with the fact that the art of kissing was in fact developed in India, and there is no reason to term kissing as “against Indian culture” at all, or as is currently the case, include it in India’s obscenity laws.
It makes a hell of a lot of difference. For example, a notable difference is observed, as in the absence of sculptures and idols, in Byzantine structures that were taken over by Islam (due to Islam’s denunciation of idols). How exactly was the survival of Hinduism by chance? In my opinion, this is the single most important aspect that distinguishes us – the fact that Islam (and to a much lesser extent Christianity) were assimilated in Hinduism, as opposed to say Persia where Islam totally replaced Zoroastrianism. That makes a marked difference in the outlook that a society would possess.
If you read almost any book by William Dalrymple (he is currently the best-selling author in India) on late-medieval and pre-British India, it wouls be pretty clear that we were not bound by the kind of senseless morality that we have bound ourselves today in. Besides, if Shiva is currently being worshipped, what is wrong with the Lingam argument anyway. We’re not referring to Hercules or Dionysus are we?
I think your bet is equally naive. The Khajuraho era must not be interpreted as Indians having endless sex. the purpose of those images was to in a way “lure” the people into worldliness from Buddhism which was the dominant faith then. The images are also a test of a person’s resolve to shun worldliness – kind of trying to tempt someone. For the same reason, you don’t find any such erotic sculpture inside the temple itself.
Again, I would say it is naive on your side to think that my point was to invoke the same stuff today. Besides, don’t credit Playboy to India. We are busy burning effigies of Gere and Shilpa Shetty right now.
Sourav,
My problem with most Indians is their conservative Victorian thinking…If you read almost any book by William Dalrymple (he is currently the best-selling author in India) on late-medieval and pre-British India, it wouls be pretty clear that we were not bound by the kind of senseless morality that we have bound ourselves today in.
That’s one of the major things I was trying to point at. Indians are conservative/senselessly moral solely because of imbibed Victorian values?? I heard that spiel a lot in my high school years, and could never figure where it was coming from. I haven’t read William Dalrymple, but he’s the source of that, maybe I should!
So what does Dalrymple say about the veracity of the (very much pre-British) issues like, I don’t know… child marriage, widow rights, sati, or caste? Are they less senseless (they were certainly believed to be moral) than being denied the right to kiss in public? Or does he succeed in proving they didn’t exist?
If the latter is the case, I couldn’t be happier… it’s wonderful to think of the land all rosy and ideal and rational for five thousand years.
I have no problems in dealing with the fact that the art of kissing was in fact developed in India…
I’ve heard that theory, but it is not a fact with any reliable research to back it up, AFAIK. And I don’t think it can be backed up, unless you conclusively prove that nowhere else on earth, in the history of mankind, did people kiss, before the Indians invented it. I’m not saying that kissing did not happen in India from very very long ago — I am sure it did. But I don’t see how we can claim a patent on it. Anyway, I don’t see how it matters.
It makes a hell of a lot of difference.
Ok, I was treading shaky ground here, and I’ll admit I’m not confident of that assertion myself. Of course it makes some difference, but I am wondering if the difference between the differences (sorry, not very eloquent now) is only in the details, with regards to change from a sexually permissive society to a conservative one. Is there any evidence to show that the moral standards of society did not change as drastically in Pre-British India as in Greece?
How exactly was the survival of Hinduism by chance?
Wasn’t it? I would say it survived because people were less reluctant to let go of it or embrace another religion — which gives about as much information as saying it survived. But I haven’t thought or read too deeply about the issue. Do you have any thoughts?
In my opinion, this is the single most important aspect that distinguishes us – the fact that Islam (and to a much lesser extent Christianity) were assimilated in Hinduism
Exactly my point. You don’t need the population to completely convert to have the effects of religious contact permeate the culture — especially given the intensity of the contact.
The Khajuraho era must not be interpreted as Indians having endless sex. the purpose of those images was to in a way “lure” the people into worldliness from Buddhism which was the dominant faith then. The images are also a test of a person’s resolve to shun worldliness – kind of trying to tempt someone. For the same reason, you don’t find any such erotic sculpture inside the temple itself.
You misunderstood. I think people having endless sex would be far preferable to certain other things. I was reacting to your comment about “Victorian ideas about the behavior and position of women in society”, and asking if Pre-British Indians had it better than we do in that regard.
Again, I would say it is naive on your side to think that my point was to invoke the same stuff today
Nope, I didn’t think that. It’s just one my gripes with Kama Sutra fans that they seem to have no doubt that it was a sacred, revered text, and little basis to show that it was.
Oh, and re: Besides, if Shiva is currently being worshipped, what is wrong with the Lingam argument anyway.
I’m just speaking from what I know, but the people I know who seriously worship Shiva would freak out if they were told what the Lingam supposedly represents. (I’m sure they know, but are repulsed by the idea). On one level, maybe they are right… it is just one of the interpretations, after all. And even if it really was conceived as a phallic symbol, some people prefer to think of it otherwise. Who’s to say the interpretation didn’t become more family-friendly during the Medieval period or something? Again, I don’t know much about this, and I’m open to anything that proves the contrary.
I suspect you are right about this.
From Cindy to Shilpa. I am as desi as you can get but this is what I would call a mighty fall.
The Onion interviews Americans.
Just curious: Anand Jon would appear to be Indian-born, but raised abroad (America?). Yet – perhaps unintentionally – his obnoxious behavior is pinned down to the Indian part of his upbringing. Why should Indians be ashamed and not Americans? After all, he is more an American than an Indian. (I am aware that Anna was trying to be humorous, of course, but I think my point is still valid.)
I have a few American cousins and almost uniformly their views of “Indian” culture are phrased in negatives. I don’t have anything against this – that’s the way they see their “Indian” inheritance. And to be fair, many “Indians” view of their inheritance is also phrased in negatives. Probably all this has been discussed in previous posts but I am too tired to search the archives. Cheers.
I saw the video clip and as a woman, am not at all impressed with Gere’s actions.
A handshake, hug or kiss on the hand would have sufficed.
Why the hell did he grab her, dip her and kiss her face multiple times? What does that have to do with an AIDS awareness program – a program that has the empowerment of women as a natural by-product?
What he showed here was that a physically more powerful and influential man has the ability, and the right, to kiss any woman he pleases.
Is this the message we want to send out to the audience of Indian men or international men?
Does Gere have any idea about the epidemic sexual harrassement that women face on Indian streets and public transport on a daily basis? If not, he should educate himself before he makes such a fool out of himself on Indian TV again. The visual message he sent out to Indian men sucks big time for women who are already facing an uphill struggle to get street harrassers and “eve teasers” to leave them alone or face legal consequences.
Isn’t Gere already in a relationship with a woman? If so, what kind of message does his behaviour sent out to married/committed men?
Is Shilpa in a relationships? If so, why the hell is he kissing a woman who already has a man waiting for her at home?
Why did he automatically assume that an embrace, dip and kisses would be eagerly accepted by Shilpa – a woman almost half his age?
What kind of message does that send out to dirty old men seeking to harrass younger women on the streets?
His behaviour was arrogant and assanine. Not only from the perspective of conservative Indian culture but from the perspective of international feminist culture.
If they were a couple, no harm. But the fact that they are not, along with the fact that he is about double her age, sends the WRONG message out to men in general – and to Indian men in particular (since this was on Indian TV and Indian women already have enough problems with unwanted sexual advances as it is).
Perhaps the whole thing was pre-scripted to cause a raise and a stir. If so, tatastu. If not, it was lame, foolish and offenisive.
Pre Victorian Indian literature had the concept of “pati-vrata-dharma”, women such as “Sati/Savitri” held up as ideals of womanhood (which they were, in context), and other such things. And let us not forget the honor which brahmacharies and sannyasins traditionally (and still do ) held in Bharatiyan culture, with it’s high regard for sense control, celibacy and renunciation. The Victorian Brits with their stuffiness probably just added to an already closed sense of sexuality (particularly for women) amongst certain sections of Indian society.
I wouldn’t say the Victorian Brits are solely responsible for modern Indian attitudes towards sexualtiy, however, they probably contributed, as well as the more repressive Medieval Islamic culture that India had going on. Add all these three together;
Hindu + Muslim + Christian conservative values = what you have today.
Both the Hindus and the Christians value celibacy. As do the Buddhists and Jains. Muslims value the chastity of married women and the virginity of unmarrieds, as well as permitting polygamy for men but not for women.
I agree but still think Gere’s behaviour was misongynist, as was pointed out by another poster here.
Come on! It’s 2007. When will women speaking out on serious issues ever be taken seriously if not now?
His behaviour was a throw back to the 1950’s.
Richard is an ass – a BIG ass. I’m not Indian and I’m not a conservative but I think that what he did was not only bad by Indian standards but very bad by western standards. Granted, many women would love to get kissed and hugged by him but I doubt he got her permission first. What he did is called SEXUAL Harrassment. By all acounts they barely know eachother and what he did (or any man in the same situation) is sexual harrassment. You don’t just jump on a woman you don’t know in such a way.
Stupud, stupid man.