Indolink has an article summarizing a recent study, conducted by a group of undergrads in the Department of Medical Informatics at Columbia University, that is sure to invoke a juicy discussion here. Titled, “Sexual Decision-Making of Immigrant East Indians: Risky or Not?” (password may be required unless you use the abstract link to the PDF), the study, by my own slightly irreverent estimation, is a survey that examines the question, “who is sexually looser: ‘ABCDs’ or ‘FOBs’?” I mean really, after years of increasing ABCD/FOB solidarity, do we really want to see this type of hand-grenade thrown into the mix? Sometimes statistics are better left unexposed. From the abstract:
As immigrants in the United States, young South Asians face cultural shock when it comes to sexuality and sexual behavior. Consequently, a tension exists between the belief systems of the country of origin and the individual’s belief system, influenced by American culture. The objective of this study is to understand the socio-cultural influences on individual decision-making regarding the sexual activity of a South Asian (specifically, Indian) immigrant population, using theories and methods from cognitive science. Twenty first- and second-generation, heterosexual, male and female Indians living in New York City were interviewed regarding their sexual activity. Results show that 55% of participants engaged in sexual activity, of which 22% were first-generation and 82% were second-generation. [Link]
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p>Okay, right off the bat I want to object to their sampling method. I mean, COME ON. Everyone knows that desis (both genders) from New York City are on average more slutty than the general desi population (Abhi looks for a place to hide from a couple of his bunker-mates). From the Indolink article:
“Using cognitive analysis, we documented distinct patterns of safe sex behavior and specific reasoning strategies associated with these patterns” reports [Neeti] Joshi and her colleagues Nicole Yoskowitz and Kelley Urry. They also state: “We have identified a pattern of low sexual activity in a sample of first- and second-generation young-adult immigrant Indians, with significantly less sexual activity in the first generation”…Throughout the study, Joshi explores the decision-making processes, attitudes, and belief systems of young Desis with respect to their sexual behavior, and, in the process, identifies the socio-cognitive factors that push young immigrant adults to move towards risky sexual behavior in the American environment.
The beliefs and attitudes surveyed included: information related to condom use beliefs, family expectations related to marriage, participant’s preferences related to marriage and beliefs pertaining to HIV. And as for sexual behavior, each participant was categorized into one of three groups related to the level of sexual activity: (1) no sexual activity, (2) sexual activity but no intercourse, and (3) sexual intercourse according to condom use practices.[Link]
Here are a few more shocking stats:
7.8% of first-generation South Asians reporting never engaging in any sexual activity, whereas 81.8% of second-generation South Asians reported engaging in sexual activity.
Only 11% of first-generation as compared to 45% of second-generation participants reported engaging in sexual intercourse. [Link]
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p>I’m taking a tremendous risk by even blogging about this issue! After all, both my parents read this blog every day. But I have always been inspired by Kennedy’s words: Ask not what your blog can do for you. Ask what you can do for your blog readers (I’m still going to plead the fifth faster than Monica Goodling on this though).
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p>All joking aside, the 8-page report I linked to at the top is worth the read. The sections titled “Parental Relations” and the “Conclusions” were especially interesting to me.
Okay, discuss among yourselves, and please, let’s keep it more respectful than I did. 🙂
I hope you’re joking (I think you are). In case you’re not…your husband should indeed understand that he’s not the only man you’ve SLEPT with (past tense)…but it will be a sad day if you find an Indian guy willing to accept that he’s not the only one you’re currently sleeping with (after getting married to him). I hope there are no chumps like that out there.
Amitabh, I know two couples in Desh who’re into, what the kids call “open relationship”. Exception to norm and all that, but they do exist.
Waat are you guys telling man? I got more kitties than the local animal shelter.
You know what, with 1 billion + of us, I’m sure there are. I’m really torn about whether such a person would be a chump. On one hand, I think two consenting adults should be able to do whatever as long as it doesn’t hurt anyone, so if her husband is ok wih it I shouldn’t think he’s a chump. On the other hand, I think smokers are chumps because they are endangering their health, as her husband would be if he allowed her to sleep around. So I guess that makes him a chump in my eyes too. Theoretically, though, I support other people’s right to be promiscuous as long as there is full disclosure.
So a 1.5gen is possible.
What about a 2.5 gen?
Because I was born here but am considering emigrating to the homeland (for business purposes). Will this make me a 2.5 gen?
Santosh, yer killing me here
“Umm…really? I don’t think having sex determines the amount of circulating estrogen in your body, but I could be wrong. I don’t deal much with sexual function in the emergency room. In fact, impotence/lack of sex drive is just about the ONLY chief complaint I’ve never treated.”
To Desishiksa:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atrophic_vaginitis
Look under “Incidence and causes”… lack of sexual activity. Sorry its not a medical source but it was the best I could do quickly. I have other things I need to research today.
The only reason I heard of this in the first place is because my mother told me that her gyno told her to either “use it or lose it.” No joke.
In case you’re not…your husband should indeed understand that he’s not the only man you’ve SLEPT with (past tense)…but it will be a sad day if you find an Indian guy willing to accept that he’s not the only one you’re currently sleeping with (after getting married to him). I hope there are no chumps like that out there.
Why would it be a sad day? I dont think I will be sad if my siblings were swingers.
yea but the wiki article made it seem like it was more common in Post-menopausal women, not women saving themselves for marriage in their 20s.
I think there’s some confusion about atrophic vaginitis here. Lack of sex might exacerbate it, who knows, and lack of estrogen certainly can cause it, but I don’t think that the corollary to that is that the more sex you have the more estrogen you produce. Anyway it’s mostly postmenopausal women that get it.
Also, one should try to avoid getting medical information from wikipedia as far as possible. Now if you’re forced to deliver a baby in the backseat of a car and that’s the only source you have, go for it…
Stop hating on MorningSunshine, if she is for real and not some idiot guy commenting to create chaos in this thread, than more props, its not about being a slut, the double standard thing is pretty vile in general. When i went thru my post traumatic first love breakup womanizing stint, i got mad props for being a man whore or should i say the quality of the conquests, why should our sexually liberated sisters be judged differently? don’t hate the players hate the game. The only haters i’ve found are the ones without game or just plain ugly.
Sex Guru: absolutely, i hate maxim, and nearly all of those magazines, i’ve graduated past that point and primarily read Esquire, The New Yorker and GQ on occasion. But ya dunno your experience but most desi girls i have been with do admit that most OTHER desi guys could use some pointers, lol, but hey, i’m not hating, makes me look good in comparison.
Word, brother. I’d like to add, however, that out of the 65% about, only a small fraction are actually willing to try. But then, why bother when you can get a super-hot wife just by calling your mom?
As a FOB who started out with strong moral qualms against pre-marital sex, and slowly, over the years moved to the no-personal-moral-baggage zone, this article was quite fun to read 🙂 Thanks Abhi!
I can’t wait to move to the North-East. There must be something in the air there 😀
Shodan, I don’t know if that was intentional, but that was really funny :D.
My experience says there are two categories among FOB females: those who moved to the US directly from their parents chhatra-chaya, and those that lived independently for some time in India (working, eg) before moving. The latter category is, generally speaking, more open sexually, as they saw or were part of the silent change in sexual attitudes on in India. They don’t necessarily see pre-marital sex as something Americans do. Also, having been longer in India and more mature when they moved, they are more secure in their identity as a desi.
As for guys, well, they just want to get laid, for the most part. Some get lucky, some don’t. The ones that don’t book a ticket to Las Vegas.
Yep, just like any other 20-something guys from any part of the world 🙂
morningsunshine
a cuckold is not necessarily wedded–you can be in a less formal relationship as well. congrats on cuckolding the masses–you represent us browns well.
i guess it’s a sign of ‘progress’ when 1st gens proclaim their promiscuity to the world (via pseudonymous handles of course)?
OK, all you have to do is not mention the N=20 sample size and this becomes real research from Columbia University, real news and a fact and the truth!
If you don’t say you have sex you’re a ‘typical’ FOB nerd, if you do you’re subjected to this. Sigh, Can’t win if you’re a FOB.
Desishiksa, Al Mujahid:
Yes, if it’s an understanding between the spouses (with full disclosure) and they both agree to an ‘open marriage’ then hey, it’s entirely their business. The reason I feel it’s ‘sad’ is because the model of desi masculinity I grew up with would not have tolerated that, so it’s hard for me to imagine desi guys being cool with that setup. It’s yet another sign of just how much (and how rapidly) our culture is changing. I also don’t think it’s good for their kids (even if the kids don’t know about it, there is still an underlying, unspoken poisonous reality which is going to permeate that home – my opinion). But on reflection, if the husband IS cool with it, then ‘chump’ may not be the right word. Still not something I can grasp, but to each his own. The notion of open-marriages among desis does seem strange though.
OK, I’m probably overstating the case here…I do realise that only a tiny tiny fraction of desis are embracing open marriages.
TOTAL THREADJACK…as I was typing the above (I’m in a hospital library) I turned my head to the magazine rack nearby and noticed that Businessweek has Lakshmi and Aditya Mittal on the cover…”Mittal & Son”. Pretty cool.
with my sincere regrets to all virtuous polyamorous, flexible-identity groupings out there, brown masculinity would certainly be questioned if large portions of N were found to be engaging in any kind of behavior that mainstream america would tag as ‘deviant.’
I’d certainly hate to be fighting the Sanjaya battle on one front, only to be confronted by legions of brown cuckolds on another.
Nope. That’s just your mad proofreading skills 🙂 Whatever floats the boat of consenting adults etc. etc.
Sex Guru #34,
Sex Guru, When love is equated to “chemistry, similar interests and similar mindset“, it naturally follows that when these wear off or diverge, “not enough Americans these days take their vows seriously“. When love is defined as something you develop for anybody, in this case, one’s partner in marriage, and sustain it unconditionally for the rest of the life (as traditionally understood as the ideal in India), then the effort to stick together follows naturally.
Perhaps when abstinence and sexual abstinence in particular becomes cool again sometime in the future, young kids will discard such silly notions of use it or lose it. In the meantime as the pendulum swings the other way, more and more young urban kids in India equate pre-marital sex = westernization = progress!
Haha, true. However, to be fair, most of them would stop far short of ‘real’ sex with a prostitute. In fact, that might partly explain why so many FOBs fall in category 2 (sexual activity but no intercourse).
To Cocopuffs:
Unfortunately, yes… many men, not just desi, need serious help:
The guy that jammed his tongue down my throat or directly in my ear. Yuck! The guy that came before it even got started. Hahahahahahaha! The guy that couldn’t be bothered with foreplay. Um, your erection does NOT mean I’m ready yet!!! The guy that refuse to go down. Um, you get kicked out of bed immediately! The guy that went down and didn’t know what the hell he was doing. If you are at least coach-able… you are do-able. The guy that treated my juices like it was bio-hazardous material. Get a grip!
The guy that insulted my physique. Dude, I hope you never get laid again in your life! The guy that couldn’t get it up cuz he was too nervous. Well, I didn’t think I was that intimidating… but you still got a tongue! 🙂 And to all the guys that thought their pleasure not just more important but the only goal…. May you choke on your own vomit and die!
Ahhhhh that was cleansing. 🙂
That is like 0.82 * 20 = 8.2 * 2 = 16.4 people right?
So some people were partly 1st and partly 2nd generation??? Lies, damned lies and statistics!
Amitabh,
A generation ago, the standard model of desi masculinity would demand that a wife be subservient to her husband in most important aspects of her life. Thankfully, that model has been, and is being, challenged. If “your culture” has repressive and illiberal aspects, they ought to change– nothing sad about it. While I wouldn’t personally would not choose an open marriage, you are making a rather vulgar conservative argument. Your use of the word “chump” also hints at a subtext of superiority of desi “moral” mores.
You know what they say, 67.32% of the statistics are made up, 37.51% of those, on the spot.
DdiA:
That is 82% of the 55% (11 individuals), that engaged in sexual activity, were 2nd-gen. Still, 82% + 22% = 104%, so your point about the numbers being funny stands.
Hey RealResearch (#75), that’s an interesting thought. What would spur that, though? I’m not (intentionally) being snide when I ask this, but the only (and very, very silly) thought I had to get THAT movement going would involve overbearing Indian parents who demand you lose your virginity by 16, buy you your first bong at age 7, and try to push you towards a healthy life of alcoholism and chain smoking at 12.
The more taboo you make sex, drugs, and rock n roll, as the US’s abstinence and anti-drug movement has proven generation after generation, the more likely kids are going to do it out of the sheer thoughtless and spiteful rebellion (the only kind of teenage rebellion). So…the only way I can see them running from this is if they wake up to find a condom under their pillow when they lose their first tooth. “Mom…Dad…you can’t MAKE me! I’m not LIKE you! You don’t understand what it’s like to be my age! Stop mailing me astro glide! I freaking hate you!”
Honestly, while I remain a dying species of 2nd generation virgins-til-marriage Indian girls, I’m not opposed to these kids…uh, I mean…my peers…having sex as long as they SAFELY psychologically and physically experience the emotional fulfillment, pleasure, chance of pain, VD, and/or babies, and understand the consequences are more often than not heart-break (especially if you’re not as thick skinned as you thought you were).
Good catch Sakshi, though it still makes 82% 0f 55% 0f 20 individuals, which is 9.02 people. And seriously, who the hell calls this “research”? You can meet more desis in Luna on a Friday night in the summer. A better way to ‘conduct this research’ is the make a list of the women in groups less than 3 in size, and hit on each of them repeatedly. That way you can go home with more than 11 phone numbers. Although, it will still mean that you sleep with only 0.02 individuals that night.
LOL!
You’re all missing the point. It’s a Columbia University study. Ya grab? That’s why they only needed 20 respondents. In fact, I have a fact sheet that provides guidelines for such studies and the required sample size.
East Tennessee State University would have to have at least six thousand respondents for a similar study to be valid.
On the other hand, Brown is permitted to get away with N=30. Harvard Medical School only has to ask two people, and one of them can be Kaavya.
It’s all about context, people.
Sorry, can’t resist…
But it looks like a B&T study, right? They probably commute.
The merit of this piece is sorely lacking. It says something that you stooped to making it a credible topic of interest here unless of course you invoke the ever expanding rules of what constitutes a bloggable issue.
Should have put it in the ‘humor’ section.
Check the tags dude.
“I support other people’s right to be promiscuous as long as there is full disclosure.”
Agree with Desishika…problem with desis predominantly seems to be the battle between the “good moral values” of the so called “indian culture” Vs what people actually want to do or do…
This ‘keeping up appearances’ means that desis feel reluctant to do the ‘full discolsure’ especially if they want to ‘marry innocent boys/girls from India’….therein lies the issue. Either one should be bold enough to state what they do or not do it in the first place.
“Either one should be bold enough to state what they do or not do it in the first place.”
No..no no Josh..you’re just not getting the steez…Peep the numbers of desi kids at NYU, BU, Slutgers (:}) hiding boyfriends and girlfriends on the side…at least until parents weekend when all trace of alcohol bottles, glass pipes, condoms, and bodily fluids will be laundered from pillowcases…
I used to know this desi couple from NC when I was at Raleigh. Both in their early 40s, both were professional academics that came here for grad school who were swingers. Not making this up. They were like your average desi couple, not like any of the hip swinging desis in NYC that would have ever been exposed to it, didn’t have kids but they were swingers and met people on the internet.
Reminds me of the time when my dad wanted to drive me back to school after spring break and I insisted on taking the train because there was a case of Zima sitting on my dorm room floor…
This study is kind of funny, though. Aside from the hilarity of a study with N=20, I feel a little sad, because maybe if they had tried to be even a bit more aggressive it could have served an important public health function in gauging how to deliver services, etc. I don’t even think it’s anecdotally helpful – as was mentioned, there are more anecdotes on the SM comments (and more people!) than were in this study.
Antahkara – prude 😉
Doesn’t that mean that 92.2% of 1st gen’ers and 81.8% of 2nd gen’ers were getting some kind of action? Wouldn’t that mean 1st gen’ers are sluttier? 🙂
i don’t believe the above is even possible–i mean your philosophy that “i will just sleep with other men, but i only love you”. sex and love/trust/bonding seem to go together at the hormonal level at least. my experience, and i am sure many will agree with me, has also been that sex and quite a bit of emotional intimacy are inseparable.
if you believe the above, the conclusion is you cannot sleep around with many simultaneously if you intend an emotional relationship with only one.
but then sleeping with only one at a time is still in, so i am probably not the only one who thinks like 20th century. 🙂
So, this study is obviously silly (N=20???). Some of the general questions it raises are interesting, though, and there’s not a ton of research in this area, but for those who are curious, google “healthy immigrant paradox,” or check out stories like this: http://forum.wordreference.com/archive/index.php/t-256%2520%253C/t-18786.html
In many areas of health, including but not limited to sexual behavior, there seem to be striking trends wrt immigrant communities that are, to a lot of people, counter-intuitive (hence the “paradox”).
These studies relate to Latino immigrants; would be an interesting question whether/how results generalize to other immigrant groups.
hahah great post. just goes to prove the FOB assertion that ABCDs have no values. Or well, different values when it comes to sex. ABCDs are more slutty and Columbia backs it. hahaha
You know it, Camille :D. Trying to compensate for the 1st generation….;) jk of course.
great NYT article on dating and the like and an interesting article by sheila iyenger again from columbia 🙂
Its hillarious how major Indian newspapers – DN & A, Indian Express – picked this story up without questioning the “study’s” obvious limitations. Perhaps India, with its burgeoning print industry, should outsource some of its functions, like reading, for example, to American print journalists who are employed in an ever-declining industry.
Respected Sex Ed Teacher, How come (pun unintended) I never saw you in my classroom in my “prestigious” school in India? Because you never showed up, all my education in matters of “yon sambandh” was from English and (badly dubbed in English) Chinese xxx movies.
Seriously, N=20 is a joke. You could interview twice that number just seathopping in ONE CAR of an NJTransit train between NYC and Metropark at 6pm on any given weeknight…