Indolink has an article summarizing a recent study, conducted by a group of undergrads in the Department of Medical Informatics at Columbia University, that is sure to invoke a juicy discussion here. Titled, “Sexual Decision-Making of Immigrant East Indians: Risky or Not?” (password may be required unless you use the abstract link to the PDF), the study, by my own slightly irreverent estimation, is a survey that examines the question, “who is sexually looser: ‘ABCDs’ or ‘FOBs’?” I mean really, after years of increasing ABCD/FOB solidarity, do we really want to see this type of hand-grenade thrown into the mix? Sometimes statistics are better left unexposed. From the abstract:
As immigrants in the United States, young South Asians face cultural shock when it comes to sexuality and sexual behavior. Consequently, a tension exists between the belief systems of the country of origin and the individual’s belief system, influenced by American culture. The objective of this study is to understand the socio-cultural influences on individual decision-making regarding the sexual activity of a South Asian (specifically, Indian) immigrant population, using theories and methods from cognitive science. Twenty first- and second-generation, heterosexual, male and female Indians living in New York City were interviewed regarding their sexual activity. Results show that 55% of participants engaged in sexual activity, of which 22% were first-generation and 82% were second-generation. [Link]
<
p>Okay, right off the bat I want to object to their sampling method. I mean, COME ON. Everyone knows that desis (both genders) from New York City are on average more slutty than the general desi population (Abhi looks for a place to hide from a couple of his bunker-mates). From the Indolink article:
“Using cognitive analysis, we documented distinct patterns of safe sex behavior and specific reasoning strategies associated with these patterns” reports [Neeti] Joshi and her colleagues Nicole Yoskowitz and Kelley Urry. They also state: “We have identified a pattern of low sexual activity in a sample of first- and second-generation young-adult immigrant Indians, with significantly less sexual activity in the first generation”…Throughout the study, Joshi explores the decision-making processes, attitudes, and belief systems of young Desis with respect to their sexual behavior, and, in the process, identifies the socio-cognitive factors that push young immigrant adults to move towards risky sexual behavior in the American environment.
The beliefs and attitudes surveyed included: information related to condom use beliefs, family expectations related to marriage, participant’s preferences related to marriage and beliefs pertaining to HIV. And as for sexual behavior, each participant was categorized into one of three groups related to the level of sexual activity: (1) no sexual activity, (2) sexual activity but no intercourse, and (3) sexual intercourse according to condom use practices.[Link]
Here are a few more shocking stats:
7.8% of first-generation South Asians reporting never engaging in any sexual activity, whereas 81.8% of second-generation South Asians reported engaging in sexual activity.
Only 11% of first-generation as compared to 45% of second-generation participants reported engaging in sexual intercourse. [Link]
<
p>I’m taking a tremendous risk by even blogging about this issue! After all, both my parents read this blog every day. But I have always been inspired by Kennedy’s words: Ask not what your blog can do for you. Ask what you can do for your blog readers (I’m still going to plead the fifth faster than Monica Goodling on this though).
<
p>All joking aside, the 8-page report I linked to at the top is worth the read. The sections titled “Parental Relations” and the “Conclusions” were especially interesting to me.
Okay, discuss among yourselves, and please, let’s keep it more respectful than I did. 🙂
thanks for the pointer to the study!
big criticisms, as they note: low N. that being said, the study is qualitatively informative. let’s hope that A+ is maintained along with T&A.
Is it common to draw conclusions about a large group of people based on questions asked to 11 2nd gen and 9 1st gen Indians from one corner of the US? Imagine if the 1 fob out of 9 who reported sexual intercourse had decided to go out on a date instead of trying to get $30 for an hour of probably uncomfortable questioning!! What would that have done to the image of all fobs (they are all virgins!).
I am skeptical of any conclusions whatsoever drawn from such a small and biased sample. Not saying that fobs are as slutty as abcds or less or more—that’s a seperate discussion. Only pointing out that this “study” is unlikely to be considered scientific enough for any respectable pblication. In fact a more accurate study could be compiled right here if every commenter answered the few questions talked about there, and abhi compiled the results!
In fact a more accurate study could be compiled right here if every commenter answered the few questions talked about there, and abhi compiled the results!
the last time i mooted the possibility of a survey both abhi & cicatrix stated that that wasn’t going to happen here 🙂 so good luck!
i think the objection to the sample size and skew is very valid. but, in the context of a) anecdotal data b) other studies which suggest cultural convergence, it isn’t as suspect. as i’ve pointed out, a large minority of 1.5 & 2nd gen are outmarrying already (larger % amongst second gen, though in that table the diff. between 1.5 & 2nd is illustrated).
20??? They published a report based on an of 20??? Who does that??? Who pays for that? Can I get a piece?
Shit, we could do our own SM survey here in the comments, and get far larger N. And it’s not like they were surveying in Iowa, they were in friggin New York. You spit and you hit more desis then you do in the rest of the nation. Puh-leeez.
It’s an undergrad research study of 20 people. Why’s it getting this much attention?
i’ll step up, i’m in group #3. gen 1.5, not born, but raised.
and we didnt know this already?
Like kunal and taz mentions, I think it would really a great idea to do surveys such as these among the blog audience. How about taking it a step further and having a voting survey box at the right hand side of the site so that maybe every week there can be a poignant and interesting topic about the Indian American culture (which is a fast evolving one). Actually it can also pertain to Indian culture as well. I think this would be very insightful and interesting. Examples: What is the furthest you’ve gone? A)1st base B)2nd C)3rd D)Home Run E)Batted for the other Team F)Struck Out (Maybe translate to Cricket terms for FOBs (Sixer, Golden Duck), Just Kidding!!) What is your profession? A) doctor B) engineer C) lawyer D) DJ/Rapper E) Getting Degress F)Business (Hotel/Motel/Convenience) How many Indian movies do you watch per year? A)Never B) 1 C) 5 D)500 or more
Sorry for being stereotypical, I couldn’t resist. Anyway with more thought I’m sure you guys can come up with some really thoughtful and useful questionnares. Any takers??
Wow,
As a 1.5 gen who always gets confused for a 2nd gen (totally confused as to how to read that now…), all I have to say is:
mAyB taTZ y Thyr aLwaYz tYPin lIkE ds Al dA fUCkEn tYM??!!
OMG WTF ROFLMAO!
It must be ‘cos they’re a bunch of horny little bastards.
And maybe perfect internet and text typing is a sign of somethin’ else. But I’d better not start that convo, now…
hm… the difference between the 2 groups was first generation: born in india 2nd generation: parents born in india..
the people interviewed were between 18-24 years of age..
so you could move her at 1 years of age, and still be ‘considered’ first generation…which really makes no sense to me.. because by 20 odd years, you’ve been socialized into the 2nd generation scene.. i think a first generation should’ve been less than 2 years in america.. thats just me being nitpcky and thinking this research is a load of hogwash..
research sometimes states the obvious..
because it’s about sex… duh 🙂
Cool, this is something I wonder about sometimes w/ regard to my peers.
I wonder who they’re having the sex with? Other 2nd gens, or other races?
And I wonder if other sexual practices that are becoming common among teenagers today (e.g. casual hook-ups, girls kissing, etc.) are as common among the desi 2nd-gens.
Other than the small N, there’s also the usual problem of whether people feel comfortable talking about their sexual behaviour, underreporting etc etc. I can attest from my years in high school back home that a prissy exterior and taboos about talking about sex were no indicator of the actual amount of activity going on. Similarly I’ve come across reports of surveys of American college student sexual behaviour that suggest many more of them lose their virginity later than they’d ever admit and there’s a lot of brave talk and exaggeration of how much they’re getting too.
There’s also the question of how long the first-gens have been in the US (takes a little while to adjust to the idea that you don’t have to be ashamed of having premarital sex), whether they came from big cities or more liberal families back home, and whether or not they are thinking of marrying a Nice Desi Boy/Girl eventually.
American style dating is cheesy (atleast the way average americans date).. Also sex is boring and it makes you smell..
While there is a distinct possibility that these figures are true, i think its wrong. Once again i’m going to base it on first hand knowledge of pretty much all the 2nd gen desi people i know in college and meet as a promoter in NYC. Most, i do not hesitate in saying this, most guys are probably lying in order to appear “cool” or prevent looking inadequate, etc.
As a promoter in the city i see a multitude of people from the ages of 18-24. I don’t do Desi parties or clubs, however after the real hot clubs start to lose their appeal, the doors get easier and typically will allow rich asians in, typically, chinese, and desi kids with style,hot girls and most importantly money. After seeing probably 50-60 odd nights at various venues and with desi kids interacting, there is no way that 45% of these males are having sexual intercourse with anyone besides their hand. For the vast majority of females, it is a possibility, as its easier for a girl to get laid than a guy, i still don’t really see it. There are always the token sluts and scumbags for every group.
I really don’t know, but my guess would be that IF half the desi guys in NYC were getting laid, perhaps then there wouldn’t be such a high number of fights at clubs!
I highly doubt that 50% of desi males in NYC are having interracial sex… maybe sex with other desi’s, but not interracial..
If so many of them are having sex then why are so many of them still having arranged marriages ?
And this has something to do with AIDS in India? It looks like their subjects were kids on campus– puhleeze. Apart from anything else, the kids who are here from India probably have to look out for themselves quite a bit more– can’t afford to screw around.
Lets for a minute forget that this survey can hardly be called a survey due to such a low sampling, and imagine that this was actually the case with a sample of 500 people. As a 1st gen fob, it is easy to attribute the low sexual activity to the following:
1) At least 1/3rd of fobs (in my experience) have ‘desi/moral values’ which restrict them from activity of this kind – I’d say a good 80% for Fob Females, and about 35% for Fob Males. Yes, this disparity between the sexes is huge.
2) For the 65% of Fob males who do not have any personal moral baggage and who are horny as hell too, their options are extremely limited – Females of other races are way beyond reach. ABCD Females prefer ABCD Males. The Fob male-female ratio is first of all skewed badly, add to that the fact of #1 that only 20% of these fob females would be open to pre-marital sex. Leaves you with just the 1 FOB in the survey who got lucky.
some idiot prof signed off on the survey design.
and this undergrad class project is getting all this attention simply because its about sex.
Yeah…I’m in undergrad and this has me pretty confused…most of the “newly freed” college ABCD girls I know do everything short of sex. In the words of Hetal and Kapila–“every hole but that one! ROFL!” I can’t believe the hype these crappy studies get. I think there’s another study out showing there’s a reduction in interracial marriages since the immigrant population in America is exponentially larger than it was a decade ago. If I can find it, I’ll post it, but I don’t know what to believe anymore….
lol…did some1 mention me??? LOL thas soo funny
also, 1 time this person fr slutgers askd us all these ?s about this stuf n we strait up lied. wtf. ur askin NDN peeps about SEXX? ROTFLMAO!!1
Abhi: Ask not what your mom and dad will think about this post, ask what and how you can inform/entertain your readers on this blog. BTW “Taz”: I don’t know about LA LA land, but if you spit in Singapore on public street -you mught spend a night in the Big House… although I hear ya. This survey is’nt worth the cost of paper it is written on.
LOL..no you didnt just go there
“IF half the desi guys in NYC were getting laid, perhaps then there wouldn’t be such a high number of fights at clubs!”
Amen!
You poor thing.
Why the quotations, “Yo Dad?” LA is not Singapore. You spit in this city you get sunny sky, mild weather, and beautiful beaches. 😉
Yo Dad said it! 20 people damn. I can conjure up at least 50 honest people who’d tell me like it is with one phone call. No lies no pretense. Come on now. OK wait maybe cause I’m older. Nevermind. These tykes are 18-24 and having sex? Ram Ram…
did anyone mention slutgers ??!! 😀 too bad m gonna get outta there in may 🙁
While the methodology and sample make this study less than useful, the results are hardly surprising. Immigrant children tend to adopt the mores of their host society. I was reading a book on the rise of India called Despite the Gods, and the author cites to a large Indian survey which indicates that roughly 3/4 of Indians believe that the parents had final say in choice of marital partners and that 56% of “urban graduates” believed that marrying outside of one’s jati was wrong. Most of the 1gens come from this later group, though being immigrants they may have a somewhat (but I suspect not radically) different take on these issues.
I’ve always felt that first gen desis had an old school, almost Ethan Frommesque viewpoint on sex that is more in keeping with america 100 or more years ago. For ABDs its a mix and match..the ones with progressive parents, who got to date and hopefully reached 3rd base sometime around the age of 15 have one viewpoint…others who were stifled till college and then let loose on straight Jack D, Stoli or Long Island Ice Teas approach sex in another way…a third group who waited till AFTER college…well here we have the club fighters who habitually wear patent leather shoes and two tone shirts 🙁
hahaha… I think in the case of 1.5, it pretty much counts as second gen., no? Was that ever detailed in the study? Or what age qualifies for first generation in this study…? GAH! What does it matter anyway. Good for you if you get it on!!
“2) For the 65% of Fob males who do not have any personal moral baggage and who are horny as hell too, their options are extremely limited – Females of other races are way beyond reach. ABCD Females prefer ABCD Males. The Fob male-female ratio is first of all skewed badly, add to that the fact of #1 that only 20% of these fob females would be open to pre-marital sex. Leaves you with just the 1 FOB in the survey who got lucky.”
Don’t know about that.. These day a lot of so called “fobs” (male) make it one of their goals to date a white woman, and do so within a few years of arriving here…. they usually reject brown girls as potential partners (until they get an arranged marriage if they choose to go through with it that is), and usually don’t associate with ABCDs (whether the ‘gangstas’ or the ‘coconuts’, both of whom go after other ABCD girls)..
Coconuts do NOT go after ABCD girls. AT ALL. More like, “anything but brown”.
Why do people waste brain power on things like this? This is the reason there is no cure for AIDS and cancer because people are to busy trying to figure out who is doing it. A country of over a billion people VS. a country of maybe 300 million. I conclude that people in India do it alot more often and people who come from India once they do bang they will not stop. Give me my genius grant and please no applause.
I get so confused over thing’s like this. Say that the survey was perfectly done and with the same results, then what? Are they going to send a letter to all 2nd generation parent’s telling them about how much their daughter like’s to chew on the old meat stick?
Some other things that might suprise these people might be
“American style dating is cheesy (atleast the way average americans date).. Also sex is boring and it makes you smell..”
I’m not entirely sure what you mean by cheesy. The intention is to meet many people till you find one you want to spend all your time with. Love is not viewed by Americans as something you can manufacture. There has to be a chemistry, similar interests, and similar mindset. This then leads to a belief that a couple can make it together long term. Unfortunately, not enough Americans these days take their vows seriously. For this, I am truly embarrassed.
The anthropological definition of marriage pertains to legal sexual access to a person. If you are finding sex boring, best not to marry at all. Honestly, I can’t imagine why you’d feel that way…. Unless you aren’t enjoying it. I do apologize but by the ID you have chosen I can’t tell whether you are male or female. Since lack of sex drive is often a female dysfunction I will go on that assumption:
Intercourse is NOT only one way to have sex and 70% of women cannot climax during it (if men claim a better success rate, the women are faking). The clitoris the primary sexual organ in women. If you don’t know what that is or where it is, then you might want to do some research (clinical and fun 🙂 ).
If you are just generally uninterested in sex you may want to consider seeing a doctor. A lack of sexual appetite is related to a lack of testosterone (in men and women). This can lead to health problems!
Also the later you chose to have sex the more likely you are to have sexual dysfunctions. Not to pat Westerners on the back or anything cuz plenty have sex too early, but waiting till you are 28 is really bad for your body…. even more so if you aren’t masturbating regularly. If you don’t use it, you lose it… literally. Women lack the fluids and estrogen to maintain healthy vaginal walls which then atrophy and men end up at least partially impotent.
Then there’s the whole issue of needing the endorphins released during sex as a natural stress reducer, et cetera. Oh and it’s good exercise! 🙂
Oh and lastly…. you get used to the smells and flavors associated with sex. It really isn’t a big deal. And frankly, the worst thing you can say to your partner is that they taste or smell bad… so don’t ever do that! Washing beforehand should be sufficient to make all subsequent smells and flavors fresh and non-offensive.
this gal miss joshi likely had a required ‘project’ she had to do, and this was the simplest thing..
her thought: let me go to the indian students club meeting, hand out some survey, and write up som BS paper..
her profs thought: let me make this into some BS ‘research’ paper..so i can make my resume longer..and hopefully get on tenure track…
academia is the true art of learning how to make shit look like paper.. amazing.
Siddhartha is French! 😀
shallow thinker: you have just earned your tenure at brown university. shabash.
Here’s the only survey we care about:
Sexual encounters we had with non-Indians over the weekend: 0 Sexual encounters we had with 2nd generation Indians over the weekend: 0 Sexual encounters we had with 1st generation Indians over the weekend: 0 Sexual encounters we had with call center operators over the weekend: 0* Sexual encounters we had with the sexy pillow over the weekend: 0** Sexual encounters we had with the house plant over the weekend: 0*** Total sexual encounters we had over the weekend: 0
Thanks, Abhi, for reminding us that people are, indeed, doing it…without us.
* They hung up before things got good. ** Pillow said no. *** It dried up and died upon our touch.
SuperJagjit… LOL!
The ‘looser’ used in the title seems like a clever play on ‘loser’ 😉
lol…this is a funny thread, i think the problem with most 2nd gens is that they got mad complexes. We got different sects, the ABCDs, the Team Indias(naively think they are indian), The Blindians, and coconuts. When it comes to casual sex i think that those walls all break down and all guys are out for the hottest desi girl they can bag, comes down to game. Personal experience dictates that there is no single type of game cause many of the desi girls chameleon themselves and its often difficutlt to determine which sect they belong to based on style alone, haha, i find the truest forms and the hottest ones to be coconuts and Team Indias. Banker or doctor, throw in some thoughts on salman rusdie, perhaps quote a line of neruda and you you’re home free.
As for what the Sex Guru is talking about….what were you doing in hs and college? besides everything he wrote can be found in like any issue of Maxim, FHM, or any other generic guy magazine.
I think of myself as second generation indian. My parents were born in India and I was born there but I came to America as a BABY in the 80s. WHen I was under my parent’s supervisation, I did NOT DATE, kiss boys, have sex, etc. When I moved to go to college I was asked out a lot. I have a white boyfriend who is used to having sex with a girlfriend. This became a HUGE cultural issue for me because I wanted to save myself until marriage. Well, Ive had sex numerous times and Ive changed my mind on when I should have sex and with whom.
Now,I dont mind one-night stands and multiple male partners as long as safe sex is practiced and I continue my birth control methods. I decided that I want to have sex before marriage BUT NOT CHILDREN. I enjoy having sex with different men because I get more aroused when I encounter a new male in bed but I do not want to dump my boyfriend. He and I have an understanding that it is an open relationship though I sleep with way more partners than him. Anyways, when I get married,(Hopefully I can find a good innocent indian guy) I hope my partner understands that this is the 21st century and he shouldnt be the only man I sleep with. I mean, he should be the only man I am emotionally in love with, but there should be an understanding that if Im attracted to a man, and he is attracted to me, we should have sex.
AND I AM SICK OF WOMEN CALLING OTHER WOMEN THAT ARE COMFORTABLE WITH THEIR SEXUAL NATURE “SLUTS/WHORES”. Im not a “slut” or “whore” , IM A WOMAN THAT ENJOYS FUCKING MEN.IM SO SICK OF MEN AND WOMEN TEACHING US GIRLS THAT WE SHOULD SAVE OUR PUSSIES AND BE PURE and if not we should feel GUILT and worthless.BULLSHIT.
And by the way, why are us sexually active people called LOOSE?????????? It has such a negative connotation -makes it seem like we are broken and need to be tightened.
To quote Trey MacDougal…”All right-y, then.”
MorningSunshine – you should come to our Saturday parties at Arena!!
Is morningsunshine for real?
morningsunshine gets a little cranky when she goes without her morningwood.
.
Umm…really? I don’t think having sex determines the amount of circulating estrogen in your body, but I could be wrong. I don’t deal much with sexual function in the emergency room. In fact, impotence/lack of sex drive is just about the ONLY chief complaint I’ve never treated.
Anyway, I know plenty of people who are saving themselves for marriage, but only one is desi,and 2nd gen at that. The other desis I know are sexually active albeit not promiscuous. 20 is an absurd sample size for any study, especially that one.
Apparently the sex ed unit can’t come soon enough.
I was gonna hold off til May but maybe I betta get that ball rollin’.
“As for what the Sex Guru is talking about….what were you doing in hs and college? besides everything he wrote can be found in like any issue of Maxim, FHM, or any other generic guy magazine.”
To Cocopuffs: Yes, I am aware that the ID is deceiving….I’m actually female. I found it silly to refer to myself as mataji… and just ran with what popped into my head. Not that my choice was any less silly….
I was responding to a previous post… hence the quotes. #14 to be exact. While in general it may be none of my business what a person thinks about their own sex life, if they go ahead and post it publicly it is fair game. Honestly, I was concerned for this person.
Personally, I find Maxim vile. I have never read Men’s Health…. I don’t have the requisite plumbing to bother. 🙂
Oh and, health education, including sex ed, was something taught on the middle school level where I am from. Yet I am often stunned by the ignorance I come across on the subject matter. Often help is unappreciated…. so whatever.