In the past, discussions of domestic abuse have run aground because of the lack of good information. In general, we end up agreeing on three points:
- Women are assaulted by their partners in South Asia
- South Asian women are assaulted by their partners in America
- Non South Asian women are assaulted by their partners all over the world as well
but we always lack the numbers to talk about how bad the problem is in different places and for different communities. For that reason, I thought it was worth flagging this statistic I saw in the recent NEJM article on AIDS in India:
That’s more than 1 in every 3 women in India who has had a husband at some point. The numbers in the article varied by state, and unfortunately they provided these figures for only a handful of states (those where they had HIV figures). Still, here’s what it says:
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| State | %age of women abused |
| India overall | 37.2% |
| Delhi | 16.3% |
| Andhra Pradesh | 35.2% |
| Karnataka | 20% |
| Maharashtra | 30.7% |
| Manipur | 43.9% |
| Nagaland | 15.4% |
| Tamil Nadu | 41.9% |
The figures come from the 2005-06 National Family Health Survey, and the data involved have not yet been published so I can’t tell you what figures are available for the other states. I also can’t find the exact definition that they used in their questionnaire, nor can I tell you how India compares to other countries.
Here’s a different report with a far higher figure, although using a different definition:
As many as 70 per cent of married women in India between the age of 15 and 49 are victims of beating, rape or coerced sex, the United Nation Population Fund report said. However, the rate of domestic violence is much higher in Egypt with 94 per cent and Zambia with 91 per cent. [Link]
I’m finding that set of numbers a bit hard to believe, in part because Egypt comes close to being a country where all women are assaulted.
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p>[The comments below convincingly argue that the numbers struck out actually referred to women’s opinions concerning when it was OK for their husband to use force against them and not to actual rates of male against female DV]
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p>Lastly, here is a link to some different numbers for the region, again comparability is unclear but it suggests that violence against women is higher in the region than in the world as a whole.
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p>UPDATE: here are some figures for abuse of children – will try to post more when the report comes out:
Every second child in India has suffered some form of abuse, according to the world’s largest-ever study on child abuse… At least 25 per cent respondents had been sexually abused — 30 per cent of them by family members or relatives, says the National Study on Child Abuse. Forty per cent of children interviewed said they were subjected to physical violence, and five per cent of these said they had resorted to substance abuse to cope with being battered regularly. [Link via UB]
See related posts: Wifebeating worldwide, National Sexual Assault Awareness Month, Misogyny kills, Seeing the in-laws
One more article on DV and Renuka in India
The stats somehow don’t ring true…40% of tamils beat their wife while only 16% of delhiites do it…somehow doesnt seem to reconcile with my experience of living in Delhi with stories of ‘kitchen stove accidents’ and spousal rape everyday in the papers. Atleast the women in TN dont get into as many kitchen stove accidents!
Sumanth, from the link you provided us, this….
…. is totally ridiculous.
Perhaps India hasn’t needed a “feminist revolution” because South Asia has a long tradition of feminism and discussion of the role of women in society, as well as women who have bucked traditional gender roles throughout South Asian history. Writers like Rokeya Hussain, historical figures like the Rani of Jhansi–there are plenty of socially acceptable role models for girls and women who don’t like traditional gender roles.
Dare I say that it may be because you are a white woman? I have traveled the world too, and the US is the only place where I have occasionally felt not relaxed as a woman, and it’s always been at work. It is just as difficult in the US for a woman in a male-dominated field as it is in other countries. .
You can dare say it but my black American friends feel the same way. Ours is a well travelled group and we discuss these things amongst ourselves alot.
I’m not negating your experience. I have very little experience in the American work world/corporate world, so I don’t doubt you.
Look, MoS asked politely, I think we should do our best to be civil even if we disagree. Not saying folks have not, but I don’t think it’s necessary to be hostile to someone who is opening up a conversation.
But to address the question: “is abuse more widespread in India or immigrant communities than in the U.S./2nd gen communities?” I would say the answer is mixed. In terms of absolutes, no. The generally accepted statistic for prevalence of partner physical/sexual abuse in the U.S. is 30%. This of course does not include other forms of abuse, nor does it include sibling-sibling or parent-child abuse. From what I can tell, that prevalence is pretty similar to the 37% statistic (which I am inclined to believe is pretty accurate). It’s also generally accepted that DV stats are low-end estimates and underreport, so the statistics for India and the U.S. are probably higher. Among immigrant communities it is generally harder to take stats, but I have a feeling it is not much higher than the rates among “non-immigrant” communities (there are however, factsheets at http://www.endabuse.org which may be more accurate than my “hunch”). I think it’s also important to remember that a lot of immigrant women who are battered are abused by U.S. citizens who think they can do whatever they want without impunity because they can hold deportation over a woman’s head as a threat.
I’m very much with serenityha on this one – DV is widespread, multifaceted, and crosses cultural groups. It is not inherent to any one group or class. Further, it is not about the “inability to resolve disagreement” as MoorNam mentioned, it is very much about power. Saying otherwise is like saying that rape is about being horny/under-sexed as opposed to it being a violent act of exerting force/power. The distinction is important because then the “solution” or “treatment” is different as well.
And finally, thanks coach for that link. YWCA does amazing work across the country/world, and I’ve always thought they were a great resource. They also offer really affordable self defense courses for women.
Sumanath, can you explain how your link to a blog provides more credible or “scientific” data than organizations devoted to working to improve gender relations? I ask since your main complaint seems to be with the stats and classifications. And I really don’t see what a “yearly” figure would have to do with anything. if women are beaten but not killed in year X, they will probably still be beaten in year X+1. Your point is a red herring.
Although, if you agree with the article quoted by MoS, then I doubt that there will be any common ground from which to move forward in conversation.
I stand disgusted.
I don’t agree that all abuse and rape stems from power issues. I think there are cases where abuse does indeed stem from an inability to resolve conflict. I see that alot in parent-child relationships where the kid just digs and digs and digs at the parent until the parent snaps and slaps them. I’ve done it with kids before and it was all about being pushed over my limits with their incredibly annoying and consistently relentless temper tantrums.
As far as rape, I do feel that in situations where a man is sexually repressed and has no outlet for sexual expression, such as in gender segregated cultures, rape may sometimes be more about that than about the man wanting to exert power over a woman. How can we say that all rapes and all forms of abuse are power issues?
Desishiksa,
My missus feels the same way. Although, socially, overall, it’s better for a woman than the US, in her (and my) opinion.
Delhi is definitely under-reported. Probably because wifebeaters are called banians there.
MoS, I’m just going to firmly disagree with you. Even “snapping” at a child is a power play – it is about controlling someone else’s actions or feeling like you have control of an “out of control” situation. There are of course more articulate and lengthy explanations behind the psychological explanations, etc., but I think a failure to classify causes correctly means you end up with (well-intentioned but) misguided solutions. There is also, usually, a different relationship between an adult beating the shit out of another adult and an adult beating the shit out of a child, even if some of the underlying issues may be the same.
I agree with Camille here, MoS. It’s not OK to beat a child either. What if the child “lost patience” with you? He/she should beat the crap out of you? That sounds absurd, but only because the child is weaker…. So it’s basically about who’s bigger.
I’m not talking about “beating” a child, I’m talking about slapping them or spanking them which up until recently, used to be a commonly acceptable way for a parent to discipline a child. Nowadays it’s verbal repriminds and “time-outs”, which sometimes don’t work as well as a good, tight slap on the hand or even cheeks (upper and lower ones). But even that is seen as “abuse” by some people. But anyone who has ever had kids or been around naughty ones alot knows that they can really push you over the edge and talking to them just does not work in some cases.
As far as the women who don’t feel “relaxed” in USA – could you elaborate further on why and give some circumstantial examples of that?
Are men molesting them left, front and center on a daily basis? Or even weekly or bi-weekly?
The message when you slap a child because they are provoking you is that, when all else fails and you’re at your wits ends, its right to physically lash out at even those who are under your care. Not cool
Again, this is only a modern-day, westernized concept. Nothing wrong with modern-day, westernized concepts, most are great, but to equate a parent lightly but firmly slapping their child when the child has gone waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay over limits – to equate that with abuse is ludicris.
yeah, I think the modern-day westernized method of swinging at a 30 degree down-ward angle at a velocity of 1 cm per second is quite a fascinating advance in parent-child relations. I think this development must have been a result of flemish burghers writing in the 17th century
To be serious here for a second, what did you think about the numbers with regards to abuse of children. 25% sexually abused, and 40% physically abused, although with that latter I don’t have a definition so I can’t evaluate it as well.
Its hard to know what to think, India is a large country with a population that is not in anyway homogenous, what kinds of interventions would work in a country in which living conditions vary as drastically as they do in India?
“But anyone who has ever had kids or been around naughty ones alot knows that they can really push you over the edge and talking to them just does not work in some cases.”
LOL..do you really go around slapping naughty kids who aren’t yours…?
Not to condone corporal punishment, but there is a difference between administering a light whack on the butt of a three or four year old and doing the same to a six or seven year old. The young child may take it simply as a deterrent, which is all it is, but the older child, with more developed faculties, might see it as a personal affront and deep humiliation.
I don’t know what child psychologists have to say, but as a parent, I followed my own little rule – if the little one was having a tantrum, specially a tantrum directed at somebody or something, a little thwack on the touchie was done but only if all else failed. I don’t think I have ever touched my daughter after she turned five, except to plant a kiss on her cheek, which at age 14, she “pretends” to resent as much as she might a whack on the butt.
By the way, the stats on domestic violence was alarming and way beyond my preconceived notions of the problem. I can understand 40% in India, specially if the research sample included all socioeconomic classes. The less educated and poor will then form the vast majority of the sampling. But 30% in the US, where even the less educated and poor are more aware of personal and human rights? It only goes to prove that awareness, through the media or other means, and empowerment, through women’s economic independence, MEANS VERY LITTLE! The abuse stats for American and Maharashtrian women are exactly the same.
Nonsense! Domestic violence is a two way street. I personally know men who have been seriously hit by their wives.
unfortunately this whole debate has been framed by feminist groups, who have decreed that men are automatically criminals and women are automatically the “victims”. They have given us the vaunted “Duluth model”, which has been a spectacular failure in explaining and preventing DV.
http://frieze.socialpsychology.org
Dr. Irene Frieze’s research and every “wifebeater’s” testimony shows that women are more likely to initiate violence than men!!! The sober man will likely hold back, knowing his physical strength. Her relentless verbal and physical attacks eventually snap his patience and judgement. When he finally hits back, it results in the pictures the feminists tout to the world. The woman clearly shares the blame. The same research also shows that when a woman is passive and does not initiate violence, the man is extremely unlikely to do so either.
This also explains the phenomenon of the “Perenially Abused Victim”. social workers have known and documented since the 1960s that many women who have suffered from physical abuse continue to be abused over and over again, EVEN with other men! the feminists grandiosely hypothesized that these women were “vulnerable soft targets” who needed protection. The truth is that these are aggresive women who have no compunction about initiating physical violence. The fact that they are eventually beaten up DOES NOT absolve them of their aggression and contribution to the violence. The man in fact is effectively checkmated – he can either submit to her aggression or return the blows. if he does the latter, she of course advertizes it to the world. either way he loses.
Not a single one of the damned statistics on this page reflects reality. We need a hefty dose of truth and plenty of fresh air in this debate.
Those devilish women, if only they realize they are to blame for all the abuse in the world. Men are of course good innocent little dolls who would never hurt a fly and are tricked into abuse. Poor men, how they suffer because of the feminist conspiracy — they are blamed as the sex responsible for rape, crime and violence. Don’t be fooled if the women in question is abused, burned or even killed – the man is sati savitri, who must undoubtedly be manipulated by a woman to kill her.
Pray Raj, Tell us your opinion of Child Abuse. The parent has to submit to the child’s abuse or his abuse would be advertised to the world? Pray, such a brilliant man, never in my entire life have I ever seen. His logic would put western philosophers to shame.
RB, relax. take a deep breath. every third Indian man around you is NOT a criminal. every third statistic you see is manufactured/misrepresented/out of context and every third feminist is a liar. the distribution of violent people in society will necessarily follow the Normal Distribution, not the unsubstantiated statistics from biased activist groups.
Domestic Violence desperately needs to be redefined. It is NOT about Man against Woman. It is about violent aggressive people against ordinary people. Women can be and are offenders. You need to go behind bedroom doors and see what happens before the violence to draw the correct conclusions. If a woman hits or spits at her husband, that is domestic violence. If she rains down blows on him, even if he is not hurt, he has a legal right to self-defense. Unfortunately, the Domestic Violence statistics on thi blog were manufactured in the dark rooms of feminist activist groups who are sworn to increasing Woman Power, not to protect and uphold Truth.
ah, the same tired old drama with dollops of witless sarcasm.
this sounds just like the Renuka Chowdhury tirade directed at Karan Thapar. Cornered, and with no logical counterpoints, she switches to the tearjerker/guilt tripping mode, doggedly repeating the same lines over and over, not to debate fairly, but to shut up the other side with guilt.
So am I supposed to suddenly feel guilty for being a man? is every man alive supposed to take blame for every crime ever committed against any woman and be ok with willy-nilly being branded a criminal?
37% wifebeaters indeed! my foot.
Ennis, NEJM got their statistics from the NFHS survey. If you go to the NFHS India website, you will find the underlying questionnaires used in the survey.
1) The BIAS in the questions is clear. I urge everyone to see for themselves. They are asymmetrical questions, designed to elicit the response desired.
2) The statistics based on answers to Question 1009: “Have you ever hit, slapped, kicked, or done anything else to physically hurt your (last) husband at times when he was not already beating or physically hurting you?” are never publicized.
3) The questions are clearly target a certain socio-economic background, primarily rural. This questionnaire is NOT applicable to modern urban households. To extrapolate this to ALL of India, urban and rural, is ridiculous. To use this to pass sweeping judgements about ALL Indian men and amount of domestic violence and posting it on a major blog seen all over the world is even more ridiculous. To extrapolate it to all Indians everywhere in the world is beyond ridiculous.
make that “manipulated by one woman to kill another” and u have the “truth” asserted in all indian tv soap operas; which are made mostly by women for a primarily woman audience, btw.
Ennis,
That is incorrect. The 70 per cent answer was to the following question on page No. 59 in Section 8 in the questionnaire at http://www.nfhsindia.org/pdf/Woman_QRE.pdf.
“Q: Sometimes a husband is annoyed or angered by things that his wife does. In your opinion, is a husband justified in hitting or beating his wife in the following situations: YES NO DON’T KNOW a. If she goes out without telling him? GOES OUT . . . . . . 1 2 8 b. If she neglects the house or the children? NEGL. CHILDREN . 1 2 8 c. If she argues with him? ARGUES . . . . . . . . 1 2 8 d. If she refuses to have sex with him? REFUSES SEX . . . 1 2 8 e. If she doesn’t cook food properly? POOR COOKING . . . 1 2 8 f. If he suspects her of being unfaithful? UNFAITHFUL . . . . . . 1 2 8 g. If she shows disrespect for in-laws? DISRESPECT . . . . . . 1 2 8
The Washington Times has already published an apology for the blunder. The Indian Express simply doesn’t care. so a fake statistic starts circulating around the internet. forever and ever….
My God, what makes it so impossible for you to accept that women face real and life-threatening violence on a daily basis, and that a fairly reliable ball park is 37% of women in India, and 30% of women in the U.S. Who here is extrapolating that this is true across the board? There is an open conversation on what implications would mean and whether these characteristics are similar in different contexts. At the end of the day, it doesn’t really matter much, because women are still facing DV on a regular basis.
Did anyone ask you to feel guilty for being a man? Did anyone say all men are criminals because of the actions of some men? NO. That is the meaning that you have chosen to take away, and as far as I can tell, that has not been a focal part of this conversation. For you to attack women and women’s rights organizations and to protect men who DO beat women is incredibly unconscionable. You are certainly not helping anyone, and further, you’re belittling a serious and often ignored subject. I don’t want to make assumptions about your personal experiences, but I honestly have a hard time understanding how someone could choose to take issue with DV if they have known anyone or lived through the receiving end of the experience.
Raj, it is unfortunate that any legitimate critique you may have is buried under your vitriol for “feminists” and for a nuanced and more accurate understanding of domestic abuse. Furthermore, the day there are more men being beaten to the same degree and frequency as there are women being beaten, then maybe we can reevaluate feminism and patriarchy. In the meantime, I really wish you would think about how your words reframe the debate, and further, how they tacitly accept and promote violence against women.
MoS, perhaps we’re talking apples and oranges? When I’m talking child abuse, I mean people who neglect their kids, put them in dangerous situations (intentionally), beat the shit out of them, etc. And I think (this is my unsubstantiated opinion) that there are strong similarities in the psychology that underlies spouse on spouse domestic violence and parent on child domestic violence.
As many as 70 per cent of married women in India between the age of 15 and 49 are victims of beating, rape or coerced sex, the United Nation Population Fund report said. However, the rate of domestic violence is much higher in Egypt with 94 per cent and Zambia with 91 per cent.
The correction to the report is linked here by Washington Times</b>.
Without being drawn into debate and raking mud, I sincerely hope for the sake of rigor, fairness, and honesty, this correction is duly noted. I would hope so.
Well, in India corporal punishment is still used in MANY schools, so that would account for some of that.
Secondly, parents and other elders in a child’s family commonly slap them – perhaps that is also counted as “abuse”.
Thirdly, it is not uncommon for cousins in India to “experiment” sexually with each other, since boyfriend/girlfriend is not allowed. I say this based on what Indians in India have shared with me about their sexual experiences in their youth. Usually one cousin is older than the other. Often times in an older girl with a young boy. Maybe the statistics also count that as some form of “abuse”, and I’m sure in some cases it may indeed be abusive, but in some cases it’s just two horny kids discovering what makes them tick.
Regarding Raj’s comments — I have seen men in abusive relationships with women who, knowing that if they fight back, the woman could possibly be seriously hurt and they could spend a night in jail. In fact, one of my friends from West Bengal DID spend a night in a Los Angeles jail although he did not do anything — the neighbors called the police when they heard fighting and he was escorted off to jail.
Another friend of mine constantly took verbal and physical abuse from his live-in girlfriend and again, neighbors called police and when police showed up they found him with scars, wounds and blood on his face and the girl was cleared while he was told to go take a walk around the block to let her calm down.
Yes, there are abusive women out there. And I know that slapping their husband’s/boyfriend’s faces is not uncommon for alot of women, although I don’t count that as “abuse” at all.
With all this being said it does not exonerate abusive men. But at the same time I am glad to see that men who are victims of abuse at the hands of women are starting to stand up and demand justice to an issue that has for decades gone under-reported.
Camille,
You claim only women face DV from men and you like us all to believe than men do not face Domestic violence from women.
It is disgusting.
Women initiate 2 times more DV than men.
In dating relationship in India, 64% is mutual violence, 24% is only female initiated and only 12% is male initiated.
I hope, you have some idea about the research by Prof. Murray Straus.
Any data is unscientific, unless the stats are shows for both sides.
If 37.2% women in India face DV in their life time, then it is important to show the corresponding data for males as well, however small it may be.
On one hand people talk about gender equality and on the otherhand, you people deny similar surveys to men.
It is disgusting.
In India, corporal punishment is mainly “punishment to boys”.
Feminism is about gender equality. I do not discount the DV against women. But, I do not understand why feminists want the whole society to dismiss the DV against men.
I am a DV counsellor since last 2.5 years and I ave counselled 300 Indian Men who are being abused by their wives and wives’s family members.
Indian men face DV not just from wife, but from her whole family. Because, in India, its two families and not two individuals who marry.
Radical Feminism and truth are mutual exclusive.
I have already mentioned how the false (and onesided) statistics are propagated in India and world.
Their propaganda even dwarfs the Nazi propaganda.
Sumanth, while I do agree that DV goes both ways, probably alot more than what is reported, still, the feminist bashing agenda of saveindianfamily.org is ridiculous. I’m a feminist and I believe that protection from DV should be provided to men as well as women, because I know that there are unscrupulous women out there who use laws to suit their own agendas – while harrassing or abusing the men in their lives.
At the same time I see this as a “backlash” against what women for centuries were up against. The pendulum seems to be swinging in the opposite direction in order to find a “balance”.
What I would suggest for the Indian men who think along the line of saveindianfamily.org — forget marriage and the traditional Indian family system. Simply enter into an equal live in situation wherein a contract is drawn up between the two parties and both parties fend for themselves financially. Either that or just have girlfriends or be brahmachary. If the traditional Indian family system is working against you, then buck the system.
Sumanth, did I deny that there is DV against men? No. That said, the prevalence rates for DV against women are much higher. If we were talking about rape, not DV, your comments would have already been ignored as red herring arguments. Further, I think you’ll have a hard time arguing that DV where men are the victims is the work of radical feminists. I understand that people believe there are all sorts of “scary things” that happen when people begin to take the idea of gender equity seriously, but that said, this is not a feminist construct.
I’m not discounting the experiences of men who are in DV situations. I am just pointing out that the experience is not equal or equally distributed. Also, I would love to see the citations for your statistics, especially behind the idea that women “initiate DV” 2x as often as men in India. What does that mean, and how is that defined? I’m genuinely curious.
@ brown/shlok? # 39
When you said that “MoS has a long history on this site for making incredibly sweeping generalizations without any backing” you were right and how!
I almost decided to take your advice and not indulge her but choked when I read her comment # 81 that includes this nugget “it is not uncommon for cousins in India to “experiment” sexually with each other, since boyfriend/girlfriend is not allowed”.I cannot believe that everyone let that chestnut get by without challenge
@ MoS – I have no idea what kind of Indians you are meeting and getting your info from , but as you have chosen to – and I quote here – accept that Indian values are those that are ” that are touted via television serials and movies”, I need to ask you something:
As an FOB , then should I choose to accept that what I see on the Jerry Springer Show and daytime soap operas represents American values? Nah, I won’t because I would rather keep an open mind and realize that just because some segments of American society are possible represented there it does not mean that I can make generalizations about the whole of America and its culture/values based on that.
You should try that sometime.
I think I’ll stop commenting on this thread now. Evidently, I am the only one who finds MoS’s postings offensive and needing rejoinder.I am so glad that where I live and work I get to meet so many Americans – white and other colors – who do not subscribe to or perpetuate ridiculous and unforunded sterotypes.
Runa, I gave the source for that comment – several Indians who have shared with me their experiences. They told me it was not uncommon. I don’t see anything wrong with teenage cousins kissing and making out — marrying and having kids? – yeah I have issues with that. But just “experimenting” and discovering their bodies together – no.
Even marrying and having kids — if they are distant cousins there should be no problem with the health of their children. It is very common in the arab world for cousins to marry. Several of my arab friends’ parents are cousins and the kids turned out OK.
I never said that Indian TV was a great source for learning Indian values. The TV comment was in regards to the way the role of the wife is often (not always) portrayed — the self-sacrificing Bharatiya Nari, which could contribute to the lack of divorce in India, in situations where it is clear a divorce is very much needed.
Media – televised, written or passed down orally for generations, has a great effect on the overall psyche/ethos of a culture.
Sati/Savitri stories and their commentaries definetly left their mark in India. That could be seen as good or bad, depending on the viewpoint.
Wow! This thread has taken a really seriously disturbing woman-hating turn since the last time i checked. somewhere down the thread it went all wrong. thanks runa and camille for holding down the fort.
ok. first of all MoS, Sumanth and Raj- nobody is disputing the fact that men can also be victims of dv. i think most of us would agree that men who have been victimized by dv need to be allowed a space to feel comfortable discussing their abuse without the potential shame associated with being a victim (victimhood is often not associated as a masculine trait…such as, if a man is victimized he may feel like he is being feminized etc etc). That said (and I am going to try to say this as politely as I can), I honestly believe that some of you need to seriously re-examine your issues with women – as evidenced by your vitriolic rage against ‘feminists.’ Only after you can parcel out your feelings against feminists -can you then stop projecting your inner fears, rages, etc. unto this discussion.
Please note that my latter comment is substantiated by your many, many, many absolutely unsubstantiated claims re: abused men. Please also note, that all of your comments are NOT research-based which indicates that dv is sooo much more than a man snapping due to a women’s taunts. Research on dv has taught us both qualitatively and quantitatively that dv is about an exertion of power over another individual. it is about trying to control a person that is more vulnerable than the abuser —-and, in many cases, this is due to the fact that the abuser himself (or herself) feels out of control, insecure, and vulnerable. in many instances, just like a bully (abused at home by his/her parents) in grade school picks on the weakest kid in his/her class so does the abuser–who picks a wife or partner that is insecure and whose will they can break with every blow.
One of you discussed the imprisonment of your friend for dv. let me tell you, cops usually do not arrest a person for ‘domestic disturbance’ unless it is real serious. think about it. thats all i have to say about that.
MoS, I must also point out that your seeming belief (as indicated by your comments re: rape as a consequence of horniness in ‘sex segregated countries’) – is absolutely untrue. MoS, your comment indicates that you believe sex and violence are packaged together. which is a scary thought. these are the reasons why i believe this belief is problematic: 1. it shows an incredible bias against what you call ‘sex segregated countries.’ 2. it places the onus of rape back on women. such as – what is a poor horny man to do but to rape because he cannot control his desire in front of women. 3. it also indicates a lack of understanding re: why men rape. and as camille points out, any violence that targets a vulnerable population often has the same underlying pattern: a violent act to claim power over another. Not horniness or even desire. Or else, how do you explain the rape of little children (even babies) or the rape of elderly women?
In conclusion, to be totally honest, a part of me did not even want to contribute to this thread anymore because i wanted to discount some of the comments as ‘well- what do they know -whatever.’ but the more i think about it – the more disturbing i think it is that ppl can still so fervently believe in half of the things being ‘said’ on this thread- and put it all out-there so comfortably. My fear is that someone will read their statements and believe what they have to say at face value. To those potential ppl -please please please do your own research before you take any of these comments seriously.
Well said, Serenity.
Thanks Avi. Ditto back to you.
I’m surprised to find myself in the position of validating someone I so often disagree with, but she’s actually right about this. It is not uncommon. I say this based on the experiences of about a third of my close friends growing up. Also, MoS, it’s not just in the Arab world that cousins marry cousins. It’s even expected in some parts of India, for first cousins too, and taboo in other parts. For example, the Telugu word for father’s sister, attha, can also be used to refer to one’s mother-in-law, because in some Telugu-speaking communities, a girl is expected to marry her father’s sister’s son. I know those of us who have bought into western moral values about who it’s okay to have sex with will find this disturbing, but in India it’s hardly even worth remarking on when someone is married to their cousin.
Depending on region, religion, and community. In northern India, marrying cousins is strictly taboo among non-Muslims. And that extends to cousins several generations removed.
Pardesi Gori, I am sure some cousins do what you describe, but the cultural paradigm for cousins in northern India is that they are just like your brothers and sisters. We don’t even have a word for ‘cousin’, we refer to them as brother/sister. This is an important cultural value that I’m surprised you didn’t pick up on when you were in India.
You are right too, but MoS didn’t say what part of India she was talking about, she just said it was “not uncommon”. And I did say it was taboo among some areas in India. I just don’t think she was wrong in saying it was “not uncommon”–even if you only include Indian Muslims, and some South Indians, it’s still a sizeable chunk of the population. (Razib, help me out here–I know there are studies done on this). Either way, there’s not as much of the gross-out factor in India–even groups that don’t do it are generally okay with people who do, in my experience, as long as it’s not their family. It’s not so much that I care to defend her but that I think people need to realize how relative all these cultural taboos are.
I grew up in Hyderabad where there are plenty of both North and South Indians and no one was particularly shocked about the cousin make-out stories. While I’m personally not into that, having grown up with my cousins as basically siblings, whatever floats your boat.
Raj – thanks for the correction on the 70% number. I’ve fixed it, but I needed more than the apology from the Washington Times to do so, I needed to understand what was wrong with the numbers.
Desishiksa # 93,
I just could not resist one more post.I always admire your common sense postings. However:
If MoS had qualified her statement to say that she meant marriage between cousins in some parts of India, then her statement is defensible. If she had qualified her statement with anything at all , it would have been ok.
Her statement reads that all over India, repressed desis are playing much more than “house” with their cousins and all because “boyfriend/girlfriend” is “not allowed”. This is what offends- the sweeping generalization without any qualifiers.Perpetuating stereotypes about ‘conservative Indian society’.What does she mean by “not allowed”? Does she claim to speak for all Indians based on the few that she has met?
I am sure that across America there may be some folks who sexually experimented with their cousins.I am sure there are several Americans who are married to their cousins too.You don’t see any sweeping generalizations about Americans based on that fact!
I think what hit a nerve was that I have observed such of pre-conceived notions from non-Indians a few times earlier and its very patronizing.Back in the 80s, I remember , along with a bunch of friends,meeting a couple of American exchange students in my hometown in India,. They were totally amazed that our group of teenagers included boys and girls and that we actually had interaction with members of the opposite sex.A few us us were even – gasp! – dating. Actually their open-jawed reaction was quite hilarious in retrospect but back then it was a rude awakening that folks from outside India had a lot of incorrect ideas about India and Indian society.
Some twenty -odd years later , reading something that I found as patronizing on this board ,reminded me that the more things change, the more they remain the same.
Runa, you’re right. I missed the implications of that part of her comment. I was reacting more to people freaking out about the cousin thing.
thanks for the compliment, btw.
I’ve been lurking on this post for a while. The comments are very interesting and telling to me.
One of the things that stands out is the analogy you can draw between some of the commenter’s attitudes towards women, and some people I knew in Mississippi, and their attitudes towards…um, people who had more melanin than they did, and the government policies that were shaped to address the inequities they faced.
They’d always flip the argument around to make it about them. It was infuriating. “Do you know how many poor white kids can’t get into a good college? Do you know how many whitefolk can’t live the American dream?”
The point I’d make to them (and you) is that in each of these discussions, there is a group that is singularly empowered, and another that is most assuredly not. Is there such a thing as DV towards men? Yes, of course! Is it as prevalent as DV towards women? No. And is it as serious? Sorry, but again…no. Speaking very broadly, it’s not.
And to the goofy loon who posted these pseudo figures about genders and the relative rates of DV by INSTIGATION, I’m going to call bullshit! Seriously, who are you trying to fool? Since when does the initiation rate for DV mean anything? If you want meaningful figures, how about you look at the INJURY RATE for men and women in DV? Or the rate of short-term or long-term disability resulting from DV? Or do you really think the whole “she started it!” argument is a valid defense for beating your spouse?
Wife beating is not restricted to uneducated, low income, habitual drunkards but it is also more prevalant among upper crest of the society as well. I know a case of a woman who is married to an IPS officer with a rank of IGP in Bangalore who has been constantly physically and verbally abusing his wife. Due to societal pressure women do not leave thier husbands but stay with the habitual abusers. In india the abusers are not just husbands but his entire familly including his mother, brother and sisters. Some men think it is their birthright to beat and abuse women into submission. Education or sociental standing has no meaning since these incidences are never made public although many may have witnessed and know this fact. Of course if women do not come forward then you cannot do much. If women come forward then powerful men like above will blame the women for making these brave men to beat them and of course in India laws and regulations are only on books and never enforced since you can purchase everyone by paying money which some of these men can afford to do. How do you deal with such rouges and how do you expose them so everyone can come to know and publicly humiliate such people. Women’s organizations and support groups in India are almost non-existent or not enogh to deal with such ill treatment of women. Too many women are being ill treated in India and forced into a sort slavery after marrigae from which they can never escape. Some of the readers in this post seem to justify wife beating by saying that since man earns and brings home the bacon he can do what ever he pleases with his wife. well, no matter what no one has the right to be mistreated.
Well, I’m not surprised. Wife beating is totally common in India, and they aren’t even ashamed of it.