A history of European vegetarianism

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I know that many SM readers like to partake in one particular cross-border skirmish we seem to have a lot here. You know the one of which I speak, right? It’s the herbivores vs. the carnivores (although technically we are all omnivores). Well, to throw a little fuel on to that fire I submit to you this book review over at Slate.com.. The book is titled “Bloodless Revolution” and is meant to be a sort of “history of European vegetarianism.” I haven’t read the book but the review was quite insightful. First the background on the book:

Here’s the story as he tells it in The Bloodless Revolution: In the 17th century, a fundamental question about the relationship between ourselves and the other creatures of the earth broke out into passionate debate, a debate that swooped over and around and through the culture, rattling long-held European assumptions about the very nature of life. There was no single word adequate to capture the ideas that were bursting forth, until the term vegetarian emerged in the middle of the 19th century. And with that, the battle was over–not because meat-eating came to an end but because European culture made a home for this challenge to dietary norms, giving it a local habitation and a name. Whether or not this constituted a victory for animal-lovers is hard to say. As Stuart points out early on, when the concept of vegetarianism became domesticated, it turned into “a distinct movement that could easily be pigeon-holed, and ignored.” But people did start thinking differently about animals, human responsibilities, and the rights of living creatures, albeit rarely to the extreme sought by such groups as PETA. Stuart sums it up well: Nowadays, he says, “negotiating compassion with the desire to eat is customary…” [Link]

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p>The critic contends, however, that vegetarianism from a European perspective isn’t so much something they accept as a way of life but is rather a philosophy to be practiced off an on:

If vegetarianism has settled comfortably into Western culture by now, it’s because the term vegetarian has become so vast and shapeless that it describes just about everybody who isn’t on the Atkins diet. To be sure, there are vegetarians who avoid all animal food. But most are willing to eat eggs, and many eat fish. Chicken is fine with some because hey, it isn’t beef. Hamburgers? Absolutely not–or maybe just once in a while. And turkey because it’s Thanksgiving, ham because it’s Easter, pepperoni because it’s pizza–what on earth is a vegetarian, anyway? No wonder Stuart never tries to define the term. A huge, wonderfully entertaining cast of dietary rebels parades through his chapters, but all we really know about the eating habits of these pagans, scientists, doctors, scholars, theologians, writers, philosophers, and crackpots is that most of them ate meat. [Link]

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p>Now here is how it all ties in to the “birthplace” of vegetarianism. I learned something new:

Perhaps the history of European vegetarianism is a history of wishful thinking. Stuart, of course, doesn’t see it that way. But he does focus on India as the inspiration for a great deal of Western philosophizing (the book’s original subtitle, jettisoned for the American edition, was “Radical Vegetarians and the Discovery of India”), and wishful thinking has long been a popular souvenir to bring home from the subcontinent. Early travelers to India returned with amazing tales of a population that lived entirely on vegetables and enjoyed perfect health. Nicolo Conti, a Venetian merchant, saw Brahmins who lived to the age of 300; travel writer Jean Baptiste Tavernier saw a man “whipped to death for shooting a peacock”; John Ovington, a cleric, saw Hindus living in a state of grace like Adam and Eve, practicing “Justice and Tenderness to Brutes, and all living Creatures.” True or not, says Stuart, these reports were influential, for they offered a vivid and dramatic challenge to a way of life that Westerners took for granted. [Link]

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p>And so the exotification of India and Indians seems to have begun tightly wound together with the idea that being a vegetarian somehow made you more pure and noble, which of course is untrue as the critic reminds us:

Contrary to what Stuart asserts, Buddha did not teach “that it was wrong for people to eat animals.” (His own last meal, famously, was a dish of pork.). Stuart quotes Europeans who described Syrian Christians in Kerala “abstaining from animal food,” just as the Hindus around them did; but he ignores a long tradition of beef-eating in that same Syrian Christian community. [Link]

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p>The difference between the Indian and European view of being a vegetarian is that for one group it is a purifying hardship to be endured and for the other it is dinner.

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p>Also, if you hope to meet fellow veggie lovers try this veggie conference in April. I might just go to meet women (even though I eat meat) if they give me a Blog Pass. Apparently, John Mackey, the founder of Whole Foods, has the right idea:

RYSSDAL: Why groceries and food? Why not shoes or clothing or anything else?

MACKEY: Well, that’s a fair question. I got interested in food when I was in my early 20s. I moved into this vegetarian co-op to live . . . I wasn’t a vegetarian, but I figured the co-op would have a lot of interesting women living there.

(Laughter)

And . . .

RYSSDAL: And?

MACKEY: And they did . . . I met my girlfriend that I started the company with at the co-op… [Link]

45 thoughts on “A history of European vegetarianism”

  1. The difference between the Indian and European view of being a vegetarian is that for one group it is a purifying hardship to be endured and for the other it is dinner.

    that’s a pretty bald generalization. whatever happened to two wrongs don’t make a right?

    in any case, let’s remember that for much of history post-neolithic history the vast majority of humans were obligate vegetarians on a day to day basis because their diet consisted of grain based gruels. meat was for special occasions. for the elites however it was a luxury which signified their wealth and bounty. this sort of bias is common in most stratified cultures, the peasants eat cake, the kings dine on swine. over the last 10,000 years there has been selection for changes in diet in agricultural peoples. e.g., hunter-gatherer populations exposed to high grain diets tend to exhibit a lot of morbidity, it just isn’t “natural” for humans to spend generations being nutrient deprived and living mostly off carbs. additionally, some populations, like the inuit, and to a lesser extent northern europeans, seem more habituated toward high consumption of meat based products. this might result in less cardiovascular problems assuming the same intake of fats. i only bring this up because india is a culture where ethnographic evidence suggests that there is some positive correlation between high socioeconomic status and vegetarianism. in societies, like northern europe, one assumes that the fecund elites (prior to 1850 elites tended to repopulate the below replacement majority with their own surplus) who consumed meat might have driven selection for tolerance of high meat diets. in contrast, indian elites did not generate this bias because they abstained from meats…which might offer some explanation for why brownz tend to get slammed by western diets with a cocktail of diabetes and heart disease.

    anyway, just a hypothesis.

  2. Very good job by the reviewer.

    When vegetarianism is about what to eat, instead of what not to eat, life picks up considerably.
    And who chooses to eat this way? People who like food, whether or not they call themselves vegetarians. There was a bloodless revolution, all right, but it happened in the kitchen. The rest is commentary.

    Now I have another pull quote to recite in defense of my own vegetarianism. Interestingly, whenever I am asked how I could ever consider living without meat, my defense is “have you ever had a full-on pure veg macaca meal?” After the inevitable no, I see it as my duty to school them on such matters. It’s like getting people to watch The Wire or Battlestar. They fight it, but eventually they acknowledge the awesomeness.

  3. nterestingly, whenever I am asked how I could ever consider living without meat,

    that’s obnoxious. meat eaters should should accept that some don’t eat meat, after all, a lot of meat eaters won’t eat dog, or beef, or pork, etc. and in their turn, some vegetarians should chill on the righteousness and disgust. live and let eat.

  4. Very interesting post. I also think Razib’s comment here is worthy of discussion:

    “i only bring this up because india is a culture where ethnographic evidence suggests that there is some positive correlation between high socioeconomic status and vegetarianism.”

    Definitely, it’s also tied to the cultural value accorded to self-denial in Hindu tradition, and showing you’re a moral or better person by resisting desire. Contemporary American vegetarianism isn’t so different, remember David Brooks’ discussion of the culture of organic food in Bobos in Paradise?

    In another interesting little loop, I’ve read that a lot of naturopathy and ayurvedic tradition became popular as the “authentic” form of Indian religion in the late 19C/early 20C because of some German women who introduced it in educated Indian society at the time. My great-grandmother was a naturopath, and learned the tricks of the trade from European ladies in North India. I’m sure there are similarities in the value put on self-control and purging and so on that could form several dissertations’ worth of material.

  5. Related note – Marvin Harris has written extensively on relationship of food & diet with socio-economic factors. Great reading, I highly recommend “Cows, Pigs, Witches & Wars” among his other books..

  6. Gosh, had completely forgotten about Marvin Harris. His “Good to Eat” essay was a classic in intro anthropology back in the day, wasn’t it? Is it still read?

  7. in societies, like northern europe, one assumes that the fecund elites (prior to 1850 elites tended to repopulate the below replacement majority with their own surplus) who consumed meat might have driven selection for tolerance of high meat diets.

    Do you mean to say the elites effectively replaced the majority? I guess it is an accepted theory but it sounds something of a stretch. What percentage of the population around 1850 in Europe was elite/had access to meat?

    in contrast, indian elites did not generate this bias because they abstained from meats…which might offer some explanation for why brownz tend to get slammed by western diets with a cocktail of diabetes and heart disease. anyway, just a hypothesis.

    Testing your hypothesis should be extremely simple in India given that the various communities have been maintaining their diets and also been intra-marrying for generations. Its unlikely you’d find ‘purer’ genetic data to test your hypotheses anywhere else. In fact, I am rather surprised India isn’t already run over with geneticists ;).

  9. so, i actually have been a vegetarian all my life and have lived in the us. and i actually recently heard a talk arguing that the obsession with vegetarianism in gujarat was implicated in the communal violence/killing of muslims (i don’t think the argument was rigorous enough to fully take to heart, but i think the intuition that obsessive vegetarianism makes it possible to demonize meat-eaters might be onto something.) anyway, maybe slightly off-topic, but i think one of the things the review touches on is that in india, vegetarianism is considered morally superior; in the states, i think, it’s mostly just considered weird (students in my elementary school classes growing up weren’t all that forgiving, i remember).

    i definitely never thought i judged anyone who chooses to eat meat and never would even pretend to be morally superior on any level (i think one’s moral core is much more complex than veg vs. non-veg)–i really mean that sincerely. but i’m having more and more trouble with the disconnect that, at a fundamental level, i honestly do think it’s ethically better (and unquestionably so) not to kill an animal that feels pain when other food options are available. and i’d have trouble, say, having a serious relationship with someone who didn’t empathize with that level of compassion, because i’ve been a vegetarian all my life and feel it at a visceral level. not that i’d ever try to convert anyone to not eating meat, but, i’m curious, would most meat eaters consider not eating meat ethically superior? or is it a level of dissociation i’m not fully understanding, because of the way i grew up? i very much don’t want to be an obsessive vegetarian that alienates other people, but i’m realizing more and more that i fundamentally don’t get how people are okay with eating meat…(please don’t yell too much!)

  10. Definitely, it’s also tied to the cultural value accorded to self-denial in Hindu tradition, and showing you’re a moral or better person by resisting desire. Contemporary American vegetarianism isn’t so different, remember David Brooks’ discussion of the culture of organic food in Bobos in Paradise?

    Great point, SP. I’d add that the majority of (non-Indian) American vegetarianism follows one of two trends: self-denial of desire and outright repudiation of desire. The former being giving up mammal meat for health reasons, but still remaining some variation of ovo-lacto-pesco-gallo-vegetarian, and the latter being straight up veganism. American veganism (at least from what I’ve encountered) is driven by a moral imperative and concern for animal welfare that is deeply related to concepts of non-violence, ahimsa, etc. This is really an interesting topic that I wish got at least as much research/debate as the tired arranged marriage narrative. Where do the folks here stand on vegetarianism?

  11. Do you mean to say the elites effectively replaced the majority? I guess it is an accepted theory but it sounds something of a stretch. What percentage of the population around 1850 in Europe was elite/had access to meat?

    1850 isn’t that seminal for me. the key issue is that over at least 5,000 years of stratified life (i.e., taking the spread of agriculture to the far edges of northern europe by 3,000 BCE) the elites, especially males, tended to many more offspring than non-elites. during times of famine and mass die off who do you think had caches and surpluses on hand to tide them over? this is very evidence in the Y chromosomal (male) lineages. “super-males” who are high fecund often have simialr sons and grandsons, and their reproductive fitness compounds over the generations. the best example is the “genghis khan haplotype.” it seems that the evidence suggests that 10% of central asian males, and 0.4% of human males (that is, 1 out of 250 human males alive) are directly descended from one mongolian male that lived around 1000 years ago. when i mean directly, i mean and unbroken line of males, so this is missing DNA that has been passed through the female lineage. this is like the most extreme case, but not exceptional, there are irish and scottish lineages which are descended from very high status males (possibly niall of the nine hostages and sommerlaidh, respectively). part of it is natural, you assume that reproductive variance will exist within a population, and it is generally far greater in humans than poisson, especially for males in a facultative polygynous societies (most agricultural societies exhibit facultative polygyny for high status males). this is why population geneticists distinguish between effect pop size, and census size, only an x proportion contribute to the genetic makeup of the next generation, and a) that x is not randomly distributed b) there is variance within that x. so yes, the hypothesis is pretty testable, and it is only in the ‘modern’ world that low SES has been correlated with fertility.

    Definitely, it’s also tied to the cultural value accorded to self-denial in Hindu tradition, and showing you’re a moral or better person by resisting desire.

    there maybe a ‘handicap’ or ‘status signalling’ effect here. one can be healthy on a vegetarian diet, but, it does require attention to balance and what not. meat is a power packed load of fat and protein which may prevent starvation if you are marginal. a particular narrow food regime which signifies status is accessible only to the elite. consider an analogy with organic foods, whatever their purported nutritional superiorities (i don’t belive this), they do often exhibit a variety and “look & feel” which is discernable to many. but, they are quite expensive. to eat “slow food” or “fine food” is something that requires some disposable income, so the lower class people have to make due to processed industrial produced consumables while the elites can sample varied botique items which suggest their refinement and social awareness.

    p.s. marvin harris is great, but beware of ad hoc functionalism.

  12. Apparently, John Mackey, the founder of Whole Foods, has the right idea:

    And apparently, Michael Pollan, journalism professor at Berkeley and No Von Mises’ current man-crush, thinks Mackey has it all wacky. They both appeared together this week to continue a debate over Whole Foods and some of its practices that were criticized in Pollan’s latest book, The Omnivore’s Dilemma. For those who didn’t catch it (myself included), the webcast can be found here.

    Ironically enough, the best beef I’ve ever had in life my was at this little shack near the freedom-hating-commie-pinko-left’s highly secretive and guarded compound UC Berkeley campus on University and Oxford. 8 bucks may sound steep for a tri-tip with cilantro sauce sandwich, but I’m sure most of the vegenazis student body here spends the same amount weekly on patchouli oil and Bob Marley posters. ‘Merica!

  13. consider an analogy with organic foods, whatever their purported nutritional superiorities (i don’t belive this), they do often exhibit a variety and “look & feel” which is discernable to many. but, they are quite expensive.

    part of the reason why organic is expensive is because industrial food is produced way below cost.

    to eat “slow food” or “fine food” is something that requires some disposable income, so the lower class people have to make due to processed industrial produced consumables while the elites can sample varied botique items which suggest their refinement and social awareness.

    most of the worlds lower class are eating natural foods (with no disposable income) unless you’re referring to the lower class in industrialized countries which I think you were so I’ll cork it.

    And apparently, Michael Pollan, journalism professor at Berkeley and No Von Mises’ current man-crush, thinks Mackey has it all wacky.

    Yo DJ! I went to that Mackey vs Pollan showdown. I noted down a couple points Mackey made regarding industrial meat that highlights the ecological shortsighted stupidity of agribusiness.

    70% of the worlds antibiotics are fed to livestock animals

    33% of the worlds wheat are for livestock

    2/3 of the worlds corn are for livestock

    and

    3/4 of the barley and soy are for livestock

    This is utter quackery! I’ll be there in March to hear more quackery when my man-crush Mr. Pollan talks about the US Farm Bill. Afterwards, I’ll ponder our quacktastic ag policies over some organic foie gras. Kidding! Regarding Whole Foods, it costs an arm and a liver, but it’s got two things going for it. Firstly, it’s a chickmagnet. Secondly, (and this is an exclusive advantage for brown men) by virtue of my brown skin and suave Indian man looks, I am perceived by their clientele and staff to be sophisticated with spices and gastronomically cultured, when I can claim no such thing. In fact, I know nothing but not a problem…

    Why hello Mr. von Mises.

    Hello darling.

    Spices again?

    As always.

    You must be an exquisite cook.

    Naturally.

    [Lady faints]

    I’ve wondered about that Brazilian joint on University Avenue. What do they pay for rent? Do they pay rent?

  14. “Contrary to what Stuart asserts, Buddha did not teach “that it was wrong for people to eat animals.” (His own last meal, famously, was a dish of pork.).”

    Actually, this is a topic of dispute in the Buddhist community. An excellent book on the subject is “The Great Compassion” by Norm Phelps, published by Lantern Books.

  15. I have a question related in only the most tangential way to the discussion above – anyone have a good bhang thandai recipe for holi tomorrow?

  16. This post is so well-timed considering it’s Lent season in the Christian community.

    Having given up meat for the required 40 days of Lent, I had a difficult time choosing between two unappetizing salad options at a fairly popular restaurant the other day. Let’s just say I have a new appreciation for the trials your average vegetarian desi faces dining out in the US.

  17. “Let’s just say I have a new appreciation for the trials your average vegetarian desi faces dining out in the US.”

    Hehe, you stop noticing after a while. For instance, I, a proud desi vegetarian have supped at Outback Steakhouse. Oh yes. Bread and dip, people, it’s the stuff of champions.

  18. SP, Here’s the recipe. How do you plan to get Mary-J? I was born on Holi, so friends made sure I downed at least three glasses. Many interesting adventures there. Nasty high. Nastier after effects. Like Jimi said, I am experienced.

  19. Thanks Shodan – have you tried this recipe?

    The Mary-J is not difficult to get where I am. I don’t normally smoke the stuff but Holi is always an exception!

  20. It’s pretty close to my friend’s recipe. He did the copper coin thing as well (see Wiki entry). May your Holi be merry and colorful 😀

  21. I believe that most of the humans are born omnivores. We may have started as vegetarians, but over a period of time we have evolved into omnivores. So eating meat is quite natural to us. It is also natural for us to crave meat and look at animals as source of food.

    But I also believe that vegetarians are morally superior to omnivores – all other things being equal. Here is my reason:

    Humans are a bundle of contradictions. On the one hand, We create hierarchical societies and seek pleasure of ourselves (or our family/community/country/race/species) at the cost of others (and their family/community/country/race/species). We have an instinct to hunt and find it pleasurable. We crave meat and do not mind causing pain to animals to obtain it.

    On the other hand, we are also burdened with empathy. If we see some one (Humans or Animals – anyone who can feel pain) we feel the pain ourselves (atleast partially). We try to alleviate their pains even if it is inconvenient to us.

    The society/culture plays a huge role in resolving this contradiction. It helps us decide where and with whom, we need to empathize and where to suppress empathy and pursue our pleasure. A racist society teaches its members to empathize only with its race, while a community like jains teaches us to empathize even with insects.

    If we agree that causing more pain is bad (and unless you want to draw an arbitrary line saying that causing pain only to Humans is bad), The culture and individuals who cause the least pain are morally superior to others.

    Now, you may ask, aren’t these vegetarian communities causing pain to their members by suppressing the natural instinct to eat meat. The answer is no. It is not that the traditional vegetarians of India look at a chicken, salivate and then decide not to eat it because it is morally wrong or they want to remain pure. It is just that they are never taught to think of chicken as food, just as westerners are never taught to think of dogs as food.

    This is also the reason why there were so many meat eating vegetarian advocates in west. They grew up among those who considered animals as food and through reason arrived at a position that eating meat is morally wrong. When there is a conflict between instinct and morality, there is a good chance that instinct wins. Indian vegetarian communities have remained vegetarian for generations, precisely because there was no such conflict.

  22. the best example is the “genghis khan haplotype.” it seems that the evidence suggests that 10% of central asian males, and 0.4% of human males (that is, 1 out of 250 human males alive) are directly descended from one mongolian male that lived around 1000 years ago.

    I know a Pakistani guy who pretends to be a direct descendant of Chengiz Khan at bars, pubs, etc. Surprisingly(or maybe not), he says it helps him get laid, and also that it is not a white lie as there’s a 10% chance he actually is. Who’d have thought there’s still a market for Chengezi genes after 8 centuries.

    As, an aside, Razib, could you recommend an non-academic introductory book to population genetics?

  23. “Let’s just say I have a new appreciation for the trials your average vegetarian desi faces dining out in the US.”

    “Hehe, you stop noticing after a while. For instance, I, a proud desi vegetarian have supped at Outback Steakhouse. Oh yes. Bread and dip, people, it’s the stuff of champions.”

    Thanks Green Angel and I agree with Antahkarana, you do get used to it….I work for a management consulting firm and lot of my team dinners end up being at steakhouses; so I have learnt to live on appetizers, sides and most importantly, tabasco (that shit can make even boiled veggies eatable)!

  25. Well, it’s mostly just bread. And A myth is absolutely right about tabasco. That’s what I really use for dip. I’ve been a vegetarian my entire life, so if it had any meat byproducts I probably would have had a pretty visceral reaction, ie. vomiting. At this point, meat is near lethal for me.

  26. razib at 11

    (most agricultural societies exhibit facultative polygyny for high status males)

    industrialized and post-industrial societies too, only what was on the side before is brought into the fold via serisl monogamy. Still, nothing nearly as lordly as Jehangir in paintings, celebrating Holi with his entire zenana, and being ied to his gaddi supported on all sides by his women, totally fried on bhang.

    Antahkarana, not to gross you out, but DJDP, did you ever go to Shalimar for a meatfest?

  27. “Good to Eat” is nothing short of brilliant. I HOPE its still widely read…

  28. Ottobhatt,

    Glad to find a fellow macacan veggie-wire-battlestar lover, my home away from home is Bawlmer and honestly my inteerst in battlestar is waning. Where are vegetarian co-opts anyway – 60s?

  29. I’ve wondered about that Brazilian joint on University Avenue. What do they pay for rent? Do they pay rent?

    All I know is I’m glad they don’t have this douche-nozzle as landlord. NVM,

    I’ve been a vegetarian my entire life, so if it had any meat byproducts I probably would have had a pretty visceral reaction, ie. vomiting. At this point, meat is near lethal for me.

    I just broke down after a “noble experiment” of abstaining from meat for 2 weeks and went to Outback (ironically enough, Antahkarana) and inhaled a bacon cheeseburger with bacon fries to celebrate. (mmm, sacrilicious). That visceral reaction you were describing is close to what I felt after forcing down veggie burritos and garden salads for a fortnight. Don’t get me wrong, I find the ideological grounding for vegetarianism to be quite compelling (the negative environmental impacts and inhumane treatment of animals inherent with intensive agriculture, for instance) but ya know, so is a medium-rare filet mignon with pomegranate glaze…so compelling that I think I’ll have one for dinner tomorrow.

    DJDP, did you ever go to Shalimar for a meatfest?

    Is there a Shalimar is Berkeley now? The only one I know of is in San Francisco. Either way, the only Indian restaurant I’ve been to in SF is Gaylord’s and, given its name, I’d much rather not be caught going there for a “meatfest.”

  30. I just broke down after a “noble experiment”

    I’ve had a similar experience and was concerned at first but no longer. Balance is key, so if you’re having a heart attack on a plate for breakfast, lunch and dinner, you should probably be worried. Besides, I’ve got to prepare myself for this, where I’ll no doubt be stranded in the Kazakh Steppe mulling over the fact that my dinner, a jackrabbit, is faster than my car. At least it still jives with Senor Man-Crush’s philosophy, “Eat food. Mostly plants. Not too much.”

    Btw, Shalimar is only in Fremont and SF.

  31. Dude, you’re going to the Mongol Rally?? You’re daft, mate! @=) Please tell me you’re kickin’ it old school and rocking a vintage Ambassador or Tata across the parched plains of Central Asia. I have so many questions: have you done this before? How’re you going to eat? Can I be your backseat driver? It’s too dangerous for me, but it looks like an interesting alternative to Kazakhstan’s other perennial sporting event, the Running of the Jew. Jagshemash!

  32. I love the term “sacrilicious”! Never craved pork so much as when living in places where it is sold in only in a hush-hush, overpriced sort of store.

    I’m one of those who supports vegetarianism for ethical reasons but loves chicken and lamb and fish too much to give them up forever (though one childhood trip to the butcher’s with my father almost did it). The compromise is to (guiltily)eat the offending substances only occasionally, and red meat pretty much never. Somehow I’d rather accept the fact that I’m “weak” than take the route favoured by so many pious American vegetarians, which is to develop long-winded arguments for why it’s OK to eat fish (which is also expensive – bonus points for distinction!) but why everyone else is a worm for eating meat.

  33. Not sure if one can be a “part time vegetarian”. Either someone is veg or they are not. I would not consider fish to be veg, either. Sea creatures like shellfish, shrimp, fish, squid etc are considered animals.

  34. no von misses: are you serious about the mongol rally? no, really? i have a few weeks this summer… and this might be of interest to me too.. if you’re looking for another teammate..

  35. “I just broke down after a “noble experiment” of abstaining from meat for 2 weeks and went to Outback (ironically enough, Antahkarana) and inhaled a bacon cheeseburger with bacon fries to celebrate. (mmm, sacrilicious). That visceral reaction you were describing is close to what I felt after forcing down veggie burritos and garden salads for a fortnight. Don’t get me wrong, I find the ideological grounding for vegetarianism to be quite compelling (the negative environmental impacts and inhumane treatment of animals inherent with intensive agriculture, for instance) but ya know, so is a medium-rare filet mignon with pomegranate glaze…so compelling that I think I’ll have one for dinner tomorrow.”

    Man, DJ, I just got fleeced on a simple cheese sandwich. They hid bacon under the cheese (I was so hungry I didn’t bother to investigate the strange smell…I deserved it). There was no ideological grounding in my symptoms, but I think a lady was screaming “OH MY GOD!” as I ran to upchuck a positive environmental impact in the public restroom….

    And now I stop sharing.

    Ideals and upbringing aside, my family has been vegetarian for generations and my upbringing didn’t consist of “You and all the other animals are one soul upon this Earth” as much as “No, you cannot have a McGriddle, you ungrateful child.”

  36. DJDP & chick pea:

    I’m floored. I can’t believe it. I’ve tried to sell the Mongol Rally for years and just like that, I’ve got not one but two sidekicks! I’m overwhelmed. I am seriously serious just not seriously serious in 2007, maybe 2008…or ’09, or….=)

    Seriously, I’m shooting for ’08 or ’09, it really depends on when we get our car. I say ‘we’ cause I found my wingman (sorry ms. pea). He’s my best mate but I had to wait for him to grow bigger huevos. He’s the mechanical brains to complement my no brains. Together, we will get lost and sell our sturdy surplus underwear for 2 petrol cans and have a good time of it. By the way, you haven’t lived until you’ve tried the traditional fermented drink of other cultures, which means we’ll be lucky if we sip some Ukranian fermented horseradish and unlucky to crash in Bavaria, lager in hand. Yeehaw!

    We’re still discussing what car to get and how to get it- whether or not we have to ship to Europe, or do we buy it in Europe. Ugh. The problem is that the car will certainly be European (shortlist of a Renault 4, Trabant, Mini, or Citroen 2CV) and it’s difficult to find those stateside without paying a ‘classics’ premium (yes, I said the Trabant is a classic! Maybe its the leftist in me). For a 10,000 mile journey all 4 of those cars have their advantages and disadvantages, ie. the Mini is the best engineered but the Trabant is simple to repair. Nonetheless, what I need to do is buy any old sub-1000 cc car soon so I can practice working on it and get a feel for life without power steering, ABS, 3 speeds, etc. Then, I’m going to research what’s edible, poisonous, and what causes dysentery amongst the steppe flora and fauna. The last bit of planning will be to call Tom and Ray from CarTalk for advice and name the car- Chitty Chitty Bang Bang?

    ’08 should be a good year- possible Mongol Rally, European futbol championships, and an Obama victory!

    sidenote: chick pea, you are unreal. Doc + sports fan + funny + finds the mongol rally to be an interesting summer activity? In true Indian boy fashion, “Let’s get married!” =)

  37. I love the term “sacrilicious”! Never craved pork so much as when living in places where it is sold in only in a hush-hush, overpriced sort of store.

    I totally understand: aside from my recent endeavor, I craved beef the most during my first trip in cow-friendly India. The country may be globalizing and embracing Western culture at alarming pace, but I couldn’t find red meat to save my life anywhere.

    no von misses: are you serious about the mongol rally? no, really? i have a few weeks this summer… and this might be of interest to me too.. if you’re looking for another teammate..

    That settles it: Chick Pea, NVM, and I are reppin’ Sepia Mutiny at the 2007 Mongol Races. Instead of the Tide Logo on the hood of our Hindustan Ambassador, we can use the Sepia Pendoos banner. You can’t go wrong with the obligatory Ganesh on the dashboard and “Horn OK Please” on the rear window, either.

    Man, DJ, I just got fleeced on a simple cheese sandwich. They hid bacon under the cheese (I was so hungry I didn’t bother to investigate the strange smell…I deserved it). There was no ideological grounding in my symptoms, but I think a lady was screaming “OH MY GOD!” as I ran to upchuck a positive environmental impact in the public restroom….

    Dude…you definitely didn’t deserve that: totally uncool! If the perps are your friends, then who needs enemies? Since revenge is a dish best served cold, I would call up any Chinese friends you may have that enjoy playing pranks with carbonated soda…

  38. DJDP & chick pea: I’m floored. I can’t believe it. I’ve tried to sell the Mongol Rally for years and just like that, I’ve got not one but two sidekicks! I’m overwhelmed. I am seriously serious just not seriously serious in 2007, maybe 2008…or ’09, or….=)

    Oh, pish posh. You may have slipped your comment in right before mine, but once you read what kind of tricked-out guddi I’m planning to rock, you’ll be swayed.

    sidenote: chick pea, you are unreal. Doc + sports fan + funny + finds the mongol rally to be an interesting summer activity? In true Indian boy fashion, “Let’s get married!” =)

    Whoa there sailor, aren’t you going to study her biodata and/or shaadi.com profile before you circle the sacred fire seven times? @=)

  39. The Hindustan Amby is too big yaar (1.8 L engine). But I think you’re on to something about a 3-person team even though its not allowed. We could have an autorickshaw and weld a sidecar together. Even better, we could weld a wagon to the back of the autorickshaw and have someone (me) sit in the wagon like a rear-gunner, only I’ll be hunting dinner with a spear. The Doctor, DJ, and Dunce trio is certainly interesting. Having a doctor on board is practical, so is a dunce (me). A DJ would come in handy when we reach that village. You know, the village that has a leader who says we cannot pass through his village without someone marrying his daughter. That’s where you come in. We’ll save petrol and we’ll pick you up on the way back after your 9 day wedding wink wink nudge nudge

  40. No von Mises, clearly what y’all need is a Sholay-type scooter with sidecar. Homoerotic shoulder-rider not included.

  41. chick pea, you are unreal. Doc + sports fan + funny + finds the mongol rally to be an interesting summer activity? In true Indian boy fashion, “Let’s get married!” =)

    i’m in ;). wait till i tell momma bean.. she is going to be jumping up and down.. oh well i guess this boy has to go to the wayside.

    i checked out the rickshaw rally on their page, i’d be up for doing that too.. medical care (wink wink) included. (actually i saw a team had a doctor and he provided medical care along the way which i found to be simply awesome)

    2007 is the best year for me… sigh.
    they keep with minimum vacation time when you’re slave to the man… (oops, i mean ‘healer’).

    No von Mises, clearly what y’all need is a Sholay-type scooter with sidecar. Homoerotic shoulder-rider not included

    and we can all hold hands and instead of singing kumbaya will belt out ‘yehhhh dosti.. hum nahin todenge… ‘ that was one of my ultimate favorite movies (aka hindi teachers.. amitabh and shashi are my guruji’s).. now with the sidecar, i’m totally in..

  42. p.s. in honor of march madness, being held in my ‘town’…which i’m completely excited about (final 4 anyone, anyone?).. anyone feel free to join the yahoo group of mine that i’ve started for the pool.. it’s all for fun.. Group ID#: 36504 Password: abc123

  43. I am currently enjoying the most successful veg stretch of my life. “Five months and going strong”, I said to my son, w/ smugness of newly converted. “11 years (his age) and going strong”, the kid replied.

    Punk kids. Always stealing your thunder.

  45. Oops, that was supposed to have this quote:

    No von Mises, clearly what y’all need is a Sholay-type scooter with sidecar. Homoerotic shoulder-rider not included.