Untouchability: Not Going Away

Straight from the title, “Hidden Apartheid: Caste Discrimination against India’s Untouchables,” you know that the new report from Human Rights Watch (HRW) out today is pulling no punches when it comes to qualifying the extent and seriousness of anti-Dalit discrimination in India today. The comparison with apartheid gained significant political cover two months ago when the prime minister, Manmohan Singh, drew the link in public remarks at a conference in Delhi. Here’s the prime minister:

Singh said: “Dalits have faced a unique discrimination in our society that is fundamentally different from the problems of minority groups in general. The only parallel to the practice of untouchability is apartheid,” he said. “Untouchability is not just social discrimination, it is a blot on humanity,” Singh said.

Calling for a “political, social, cultural and intellectual battle,” against such discrimination, the PM noted that constitutional and administrative measures alone are not sufficient. “Our government is deeply and sincerely committed to the equality of all sections of our society and will take all necessary steps to help in the social, educational and economic empowerment of Dalits. This is our solemn commitment,” Singh said.

Of course the gap between legal remediation and actual practice has been precisely the problem for 57 years, since the Constitution in 1950 outlawed untouchability in all its forms, with further legislation added over the years. The continuing discrimination against Dalits also violates the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, to which India is a signatory, as the convention covers not just what its title narrowly suggests but in fact “race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin.” At any rate, this gap between theory in practice is well known, and the problem has always been to end the actual practices of discrimination, violence, and humiliation that Dalits encounter across India to degrees that perhaps (probably) vary by region and locality but are never, ever trivial.

Consider a few choice quotes from the report’s summary (you can download it or read the whole report online here):

DalitsÂ’ fundamental civil, political, economic, social, and cultural rights are routinely violated by state actors and private individuals, in violation of Article 5 of the Convention. Caste-motivated killings, rapes, and other abuses are a daily occurrence in India, resulting in routine violations of DalitsÂ’ right to security of person and protection of the state. The police have systematically failed to protect Dalit homes and Dalit individuals from acts of looting, arson, sexual assault, torture, and other inhumane acts such as the tonsuring, stripping and parading of Dalit women, and forcing Dalits to drink urine and eat feces. surveyed. …

India has failed to address the multiple forms of discrimination faced by Dalit women. Even as compared to Dalit men, Dalit women do not have equal access to employment opportunities or justice mechanisms. They must contend with threats to their personal security, including trafficking and sexual violence. In some states in India, Dalit women are forced into prostitution under the devadasi system and are ultimately auctioned off to urban brothels. This puts them at particular risk of contracting HIV/AIDS. …

The right to own property is systematically denied to Dalits. Landlessness—encompassing a lack of access to land, inability to own land, and forced evictions—constitutes a crucial element in the subordination of Dalits. Land reform legislation is neither implemented nor properly enforced. When Dalits do manage to acquire land, access to it is often denied. …

The denial of the right to work and free choice of employment lies at the very heart of the caste system. Dalits are forced to perform tasks deemed too “polluting” or degrading for non-Dalits. According to unofficial estimates, more than 1.3 million Dalits—mostly women—are employed as manual scavengers to clear human waste from dry pit latrines. Dalits comprise the majority of agricultural, bonded, and child laborers in the country. …

Manual scavengers are routinely exposed to both human and animal waste without proper protection. This has severe repercussions for their health; most suffer from anemia, diarrhea, vomiting, and respiratory diseases. In many cities, Dalits clear sewage blockages without protective gear. Over 100 die each year from inhaling toxic gases or from drowning in excrement.

The difficult thing is that much of the discrimination against Dalits is well known and considered a fact of life. This isn’t the kind of report that breaks major news that everyone can immediately mobilize around. Rather, it’s a compendium of practices and contradictions and hypocrisies that are all too often recognized individually but either shrugged away as a whole, or, just as often, so daunting in their totality that it’s hard to know what to do. Besides, the only effective political mobilization against these practices will come from Dalits themselves, which means overcoming patterns of intimidation and resignation that are age-old and surmounting a collective action problem of enormous magnitude.

The principal author of the NRW report is a desi sister. Her name is Smita Narula and she is an assistant professor of clinical law at NYU, having previously worked at HRW as their senior researcher for South Asia. You can read more about her here. She also has an audio clip in English and Hindi on the organization’s website in which she states the principal findings and the importance of the issue.

365 thoughts on “Untouchability: Not Going Away

  1. sic semper tyrannis

    You are completley wrong, dalits are discriminated against precisley because they are dalits in many parts of India. Not in official India, not in urbanized India, not in metropolitan cities like Mumbai, Kolkata, Dehli or Bangalore. But in rural India it’s a fact of life. It would be interesting to discuss why it is so, what is the difference between rural and urban India. Caste related violence happens every day in India, maybe it’s hard for second genarationers to understand that, but those of us who have lived in India have seen and heard about it.

  2. HRW report is very, very weak in terms of solutions, it’s very strong in providing concrete examples of abuse based on caste.

    I know somebody who works for HRW currently.

    HRW does not do original research or put forth solutions. They do not do critical analysis.

    They are an aggregator with a focus on human rights. They collect information in a cogent manner, and package it, sometimes in a sensationist manner. It has its huge pluses and minuses. Pluses: It raises the issue, and awareness, minuses: but does not tell anything about the veracity, quality of the data presented, critical thoughts, etc. In certain instances, they can be a total hack just “blowing with the wind

    At HRW, typically, they collect information from MSN, published literature. Looking carefully, at the statistics and issues presented is not their expertise.

    Just read the report, like X % dalits are not allowed to enter police station – How does one collect data like that? You tell me. Is their a token/ electronic time card box outside police stations in India, and if you are not allowed to enter, you punch in your caste, and not allowed to enter button. I do not think so. The report is full of “hawa hawai” metrics that is almost total bakwas.

    I would not get overly excited about HRW report. Caste discrimination, poverty, and violence are huge problem in India but you are better informed by reading individual stories or noticing them first hand, and perhaps doing something about it.

  3. There is a great piece on Reason and Rationalisation at India Uncut, it might help to explain the defensive knee jerk reaction from some people.

    Pinker called the conscious mind “a spin doctor, not the commander in chief,” while Gazzaniga referred to the left brain as “the interpreter.” In his book, “Phantoms in the Brain,” VS Ramachandran wrote, “[t]he left hemisphere’s job is to create a belief system or model and to fold new experiences into that belief system. If confronted with some new information that doesn’t fit the model, it relies on Freudian defence mechanisms to deny, repress or confabulate – anything to preserve the status quo.”

  4. But in rural India it’s a fact of life. It would be interesting to discuss why it is so, what is the difference between rural and urban India. Sir Samjay ji bahadur,

    I am a village idiot from Sakuti Danda, it is a small village near Meerut and Muzaffarnagar.

    I do not think you (from your comments) you know a damn thing about villages in India.

  5. Well, to be fair, the larger report itself is largely composed of individual accounts. Which has good and bad elements, obviously.

    But it does seem lame to lob a controversial report like this and wind it up with such a weak conclusion. India should stop discrimination. Great. How? I don’t want to rekindle the silly back and forth from upthread, but India’s central government has done far more to deal with this issue than most Western governments have done to deal with their minority issues. But it still isn’t working. The extent of that failure is undeniably worth examining, but some constructive suggestions for change (or even a more critical analysis of the reasons behind the failure) would be worth much more than this laundry list.

  6. Kush Tandon

    Good for you, there are many places in India as you might know. I come from Jalpaiguri.

  7. The extent of that failure is undeniably worth examining, but some constructive suggestions for change (or even a more critical analysis of the reasons behind the failure) would be worth much more than this laundry list.

    Perhaps that is not HRW’s agenda? That is why you see nationalistic and not so nationalistic Indians get defensive and hit back, when someone from outside comes and preaches. But Indians can then preach back to them. As others have mentioned, the Indian government will say buzz off to HRW and to anyone else who uses this report. There are enough studies and actions within India detailing the issues on scheduled castes and scheduled tribes and so a US busybody and it’s screaming reports targeting the Indian government, written for other audiences, will be rightly dismissed by the government and other Indians for what it is.

  8. So, it’s settled. The Indians will not criticize the US and the Americans will not criticize India? Well, problem solved. I hope you all feel better 🙂

    *PS: Are Indian politicians ever preachy about other countries?

  9. Seriously, I can’t keep coming back to this ridiculous thread. It’s like some (fortunately, rare) students I’ve had in the past who simply cannot accept criticism. They are smart, they know their stuff, bookwise, but they make the same mistake more than once because they can’t accept that someone as smart and well-educated as they are could possibly make a mistake. It’s as if all their self-esteem fed credentialism can’t handle that there is such a thing as experience….

    Look, this HRW may be a bunch of bunk for all I know. But the comments by some have been utterly hilarious. You’ve done your nation proud.

  10. And, finally, (I promise), do any of you realize how preachy the standard, ‘we are better because we are non-aligned’ Indian talk of the past used to sound to the rest of the world? Sheesh. Pot, meet kettle.

  11. i was born to dalit parents, my father got his education and work through reservation. He made a good life for us even though being the only chamaar doctor in a leading Indian hospital ain’t easy, he did it. As a kid i saw him being disrespected by his subordinates and even the guards. I live between India and abroad, we have very good lives now, my father educated me and i have made a small fortune. We are much better off and richer than most of our higher caste conscious Indian brothers and sisters. most of my friends don’t know my caste and i L O V E it when some fool spits venom on dalits and then i tell them my caste. The most common reaction is stuttering and apologies and the ‘you don’t look like a….’ ,’i didn’t mean you…’ and ‘but you are…’. So from these such little experiments for my amusements i have realized that most Indians (not just Hindus)(even IIT graduates and other such great people with supposed high moral grounds) are inherently casteist, because mummy and papa tell then that ‘those people’ are bad since their childhood and then the Indian politicians don’t help either. I do not consider myself a Hindu anymore based on the relationship my people have had with the religion and i am skeptical of celebrating Indian culture based on the historic discrimination we have been subjected to. And i love to see current debates in and out of India where indians are questioning their parents views.

  12. MD,

    That you find details of American Indian genocide and black slavery “hillarious” demostrates that you are utterly callous. It goes to show that America is the most successfully negationist society on the planet, and that the common reaction to perspectivizing American brutality (in order to undermine its claims to moral superiority) is derisive laugter.

    America has been very succesful moving its evils to the periphery of discourse, while emphasizing everyone else’s. Its actually an amazing feat, a matrix-like wiring or something.

    Good luck to all the Yankee patriots and God’s speed, the “war on terror” surely needs it! And do keep telling the Third World what to do, its rather amusing when you’re not bombing it back to the stone ages to maintain your energy-hungry “lifestyle.”

  13. No one is saying that the US and other countries don’t have a bad human rights record in the past . . . but once you’ve actually been over there and seen with your own two eyes how people live, there’s just no question as to which one is the worst of two evils. In the famous words of Homer Simpson – That’s not America! That’s not even Mexico!

  14. HRW does not do original research or put forth solutions. They do not do critical analysis.

    Read some of the reports, they do a good deal of original research, sometimes endangering their own lives in the process. Not every report is based on having an investigator on the ground, true, sometimes they do rely in part of other groups or research, but much of their most famous work involved primary research on the ground.

  15. subha

    plus indians smell ! I think you forgot that.

    Also, whats with the side-ways head nod? And do you know that they also squat when they you-know..

    God bless america (only).

  16. Ennis,

    As said, I know someone who currently works for HRW, and know how reports are prepared. Therefore, I gave pluses and minuses in comments 202.

    Here is from their FAQ

    Human Rights Watch researchers conduct fact-finding investigations into human rights abuses by governments and non-state actors in all regions of the world. We visit the site of abuses to interview victims, witnesses and others. We publish our findings in dozens of books and reports every year, generating extensive coverage in local and international media. In moments of crisis, we seek to report up-to-the-minute information so as to maximize the impact of our work. By exposing human rights violations, this publicity shames abusers and helps to put pressure on them to reform their conduct. Human Rights Watch seeks dialog with offending governments to encourage them to change abusive laws and policies. We also enlist the support of other influential actors such as the United Nations, the European Union, international financial institutions, the U.S. government, and others. In the case of particularly egregious abuses, Human Rights Watch may press for the withdrawal of military and certain economic support.

    Apart from lot of data collection from published work (newspapers, reports, books – excellent archiving), they are not undertaking extensive original full-fledged research by themselves. Their depth of original research is “We visit the site of abuses to interview victims, witnesses and others“. While this has its use, is worthy of mention and has its intrinsic value, spot measurements like interviews and aggregration are not critical analysis…..and that was the crux of my comment #.202. Advocacy has its value but is not critical analysis.

    That is why if you look @ the report discussed above on dalits, while a serious collection of newspaper stories, mission statements, and other published sources, has no discussion at all fragility/ veracity of the statistics/ intricacies of issues presented or any realistic (or plausible) solutions. I must give you that they are excellent at quoting existing issues/ buzz in a very clear and cogent manner.

    They do documenting, I see value in it but I have to sometimes question if they were even thinking while documenting and writing. Here is in their words, their mission (which has a value):

    Documenting abuses is inherently a preventive strategy. When we investigate and expose past human rights violations, we seek to hold their authors accountable, both politically and judicially. We shame abusers, seek to cut off their aid, and promote their prosecution. Our aim is to increase the price of human rights abuse. The more reliably this can be done, the more would-be abusers will think twice before committing future human rights violations.
  17. Seperate Plate:

    interesting testimonial. funny that you’re the only one from a dalit background to come forward. i used to work with a few really old jewish guys who tell stories like yours…they go off to a wasp boarding school or ibank and no one knows they’re jewish, people make remarks and then say, “but you don’t look…”

  18. Seperate Plate

    Interesting to hear from someone who has experienced discrimination at their own hands, while always being aware of the existence of caste prejudice, I must honestly say I have never heard anyone been outspoken about it. I have never been told that dalits are bad people. Still caste discrimination has been very visible at the tea gardens in northern Bengal where my father is born.

    Unfortunately I have to say you are at the wrong thread, this thread is about American history an pet euthanasia. I’m sure hara hara can enlighten you further on this interesting subject.

  19. Anyway, what exactly ARE dalits? Are they an ethinic background? Are they of African ancestry as claimed here http://profile.myspace.com/ index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=89293119

    Dravidians may be of African ancestry, but most desis would have a heart attack if they found out that they were of African descent.

  20. inherently casteist, because mummy and papa tell then that ‘those people’ are bad since their childhood

    It is very hard for people to change opinions that are inoculated at an early age. Since talking about caste is taboo in these days, they will not pass all their casteism to their kids. From post independence generation to internet generation there has been a sea change in the attitude towards caste. The rate of change is towards good. But it will take couple of more generations for the casteism to go away completely even in the highly educated class.

  21. There is nothing ethnic about dalits, caste used to decide your profession. Dalits where those who did the dirty “unholy” jobs, still do, often their dirtyness had some religious meaning in a negative sense. Such as assisting at funerals.

    It is claimed that the higher castes where those who came from central Asia during the “aryan” invasion, and that the lower castes where the original people. But I have no idea if thats correct.

  22. Good luck to all the Yankee patriots and God’s speed, the “war on terror” surely needs it! And do keep telling the Third World what to do, its rather amusing when you’re not bombing it back to the stone ages to maintain your energy-hungry “lifestyle.”

    SM Intern, on a thread devoted to Dalit issues, how are these kinds of repeated attempts to throw the dialogue off-topic considered anything other than trolling?

  23. I hate SM for the way it treats Indians like they’re backward pieces of shit and I could not pass up the opportunity.

    This one goes into the SM Comments Hall of Fame. Thanks Divya!

  24. SM Intern, on a thread devoted to Dalit issues, how are these kinds of repeated attempts to throw the dialogue off-topic considered anything other than trolling?

    You could consider this thread a kind of Rorschach test. Different commenters clearly see its topic in extremely different ways. Quite interesting.

  25. Hindu Dharma is the oldest religion in the world, giving rise to even Christian beliefs such as Jesus (who’s stories are similar to Vedic Mithra.)

    Over time, many Hindus (except for those in NE India and most of Indonesia) adopted the caste system. Hindu Castists have said that backward-caste people are unclean but there have been many backward-caste Hindus to stand up for the backward castes. Shri Veda Vyas, an Avatar of Vishnu was from a fisher-woman. Narad Muni was from a maid but the Brahmin scholors made him a Brahmin. Valmiki was a Dalit but Narad Muni, who was made a Brahmin from a Shudra, made Valmiki a Brahmin and taught Valmiki Sanskrit. In legend it is said that Shri Agastya trained the Shudra Sant Bogar. Sant Ramananda the Brahmin, trained Sant Kabir and Sant Ravidas. Forthermore, Ayya Vaigundar is the founder of the Ayyavazhi sect and His followers believe that He is an Avatar of Vishnu who will end the Kali Yuga. Even Sathya Sai Baba claims that he is the avatar of the Brahmin Shirdi Sai Baba. Bhagavan wants Hindu Ekta.

    The castists of today are the neo-Buddhists, who attempt to blame everything upon the Brahmins. Are there any stories of Brahmins torturing anybody? The jealous fascistic neo-Buddhists (and even Islamists) have continued to make it appear as it Hindu Dharma is “brahminical.” If that is the case, I would tell them of Nagarjuna, the founder of the Mahayana Buddhism and a Brahmin as was Padmasambhava the founder of Vajrayana (Tibetan Buddhism.) Abhidharma the Brahmin is referred to by Buddhists as ‘The General of the (Buddha) Dharma.’

    However what about the Brahmins that wanted to create a casteless society? What about Guru Basavanna the founder of the Virashaivas? What about Swami Dayananda Saraswati, the Arya Samaj founder or Ram Mohan Roy the Brahmo Samaj founder. With Hinduism a backward caste person can have pride in their accomplishments (which are many!)

    Besides all this, Shri Krishna Himself said in the Gita a person in by his karma not his jati (birth).

    The Hindu movement has uplifted the backward castes. A proud Hindu will not disgrace the backward caste but will accept them as their own. Most of the RSS centres are in rural areas, in vilages where they train the backward castes.

    The Hindu right has many backward castes on its sides, including Narendra Modi, Uma Bharathi, and Ramachandra Veerappa.

    There have even been RSS members such as Karia Munda that have converted Christians in eastern India to Hindu Dharma.

    Concerning the so-called “Aryan invasion,” the leader of the “Arya” Purus was King Sudas, a Sudra. This war between the Arya and the Dasa was a war between the Indo-Aryans and the Iranians. Please read: http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Zoroastrianism_and_Hinduism&oldid=93608169 Vrita was a Brahmin by the way! He was not some sort of a ‘Dravidian.’ Also, I, myself am a Dravidian because the true meaning of the term is only geographic. There are even Panch-Dravid Brahmins! Even Rahul Dravid is a Brahmin.

    Also, all Indians are members of the Mediterranean race, which is a sub-division of the Caucasiod race. We are not ‘African’ as neo-Buddhists and Afrocentric writers would write.

    Please also visit: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backward-caste_Hindu_Saints http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backward-caste_Hindu_Warriors (*Note some anti-Hindu, presumibly a neo-Buddhist has changed the name of the articles to “Lower-caste Hindu Saints” and “Lower-caste Indian Warriors” in an attempt to make the lower the self-esteem of the BC Hindus.

  26. Seperate Plate

    Welcome. Thank you for speaking up. Tho’ this discussion is getting pushed towards a ABCD vs. FOB food fight, yet it did start off as a serious discussion about the terrible problem of caste discrimination.

    UpholderofTruth

    I am a hindu and while there are many wonderful aspects of hinduism, there is no question that caste discrimination is an aspect of hindu culture that hasnt been adequately challenged and removed. No amount of testimonials from the tolerant past can help with this – this is a problem we need to address, as individuals and as a society.

  27. This is comedey gold, Ponniyin. How about “While on the topic of shoelaces, isn’t the Pakistani government awful?”, “Speaking of global warming, isn’t Musharraf a brutal dictator?” You could put together a whole routine and post it on Youtube — Cranky Pakistan-obsessed hyper nationalist. Among desis at least, it could be bigger than Borat!

    Well, it’s good to know that my comments make good comedy. I like it when people have fun.

    Coming to the point, I’m not a jingoist / nationalist etc.. etc.. Let’s see from a neutral perspective. We are talking about the government as an agent in effecting social change. and I believe even the HRW tries to blame the government for not acting to prevent social ills.

    Let’s talk about recent history, from 1947, India created its first constitution with specific safeguards for Dalits and from then, none of those safeguards are taken out rather additional safeguards in the form of laws / reservations etc.. are added.

    On the other side, I was commenting on the behavior of Pakistan in explicitly making it illegal for an Ahmadiya to call him/herself a Muslim, introduced “religion” column in passports. I have also read that it is illegal for an Ahmadiya to even greet others in a Islamic way. For a neutral observer it looks like the Pakistani government (with the society as a mute spectator) is gradually creating Dalits out of Ahmadiyas.

    Do you deny the above?. Seriously, the reports i read could be wrong. You can correct me.

  28. Thanks Siddharhta, although I realize you don’t see yourself that way. Basically, itÂ’s the holier-than-thou stance that gets to me. As if all the Indians sitting in India don’t feel equally bad about the things you feel bad about. If Indians were truly as immoral as they are made out to be, how do you think the culture could have survived as long as it did? Remember it is the only surviving ancient culture in history. Egypt, Rome, Mesopatamia, Inca, Chinese, Native Americans have all lost their original culture. One of the reasons the Indians were able to survive was precisely because of caste. Anything that has long-term survial mechanisms built into it, has to have a lot of positive attributes. Caste simply cannot be as evil as it is made out to be. It is the poor IndiansÂ’ social security system. If you show that you care about the less fortunate, and must have the integrity to dig a little deeper to uncover how things are. But perhaps it requires way too much courage to venture into that territory. So for the sake of middle class morality we are forced to stick with the tired old rhetoric and let everyone stew in hell. HereÂ’s an article I dug out that might give you some idea of what IÂ’m talking about (just one aspect).

    http://newsinsight.net/columns/full_column22.htm

    p.s. – IÂ’m not denying there are atrocities in India. By the way, IÂ’m reading Shantaram (just started) and that guy hangs out with the poor. You may be able to get some sort of realistic idea from that book on how things work. Things are different when youÂ’re poor you know. Many of those people havenÂ’t been outside a 30 mile radius from where they live all their lives. On top of that they have to fight for water and other necessities. Now imagine if that were the case anywhere else in the world what it would be like. It’s quite remarkable how they keep it together, miserable as it may be.

  29. 113 · gm on February 15, 2007 05:45 AM · Direct link The caste system should be abolished – period.

    Thats like saying race must be abolished, you will always have white,lesser whites or wogs as in australia, black,brown,yellow. It is not not race but racism that must be abolished. It is not caste but casteism that has to be abolished.

    Oh yeah in Australia they distinguis whites into Whites(Germanic,Nordic,Anglo, Galic, Celtic[Blonde Hair, Blue Eyes) and Wogs or lesser whites(Italians, Polish, Eastern Europeans, Spanish, Portuguesse[Brown Eyes, Olive Skin]). No points for guessing who get treated better.

    32

    wrt dalits having african ancestory, all mankind even whites had an “out of africa” story.

    177

    Eradicate caste-based segregation in residential areas and schools, and in access to public services.

    Ever hear of gated communities, white flight?

    Combat hate speech and other actions inciting caste or religion based discrimination and violence.

    freedom of speech or First Amendment

    Subha

    That’s not America! That’s not even Mexico!

    At least Homer Simpson got better brains than you, DOH! SPCA, Blah. they treat race horses better than aboriginals and poor black people.

    No one is saying that the US and other countries don’t have a bad human rights record in the past .

    GITMO the gulag of our times? oh sorry thats in Cuba!!!

    222

    the aryan invasion theory was a hoax, there was a mass migration though. If tomorrow USA is heavily populated by hispanics thats not due to invasion but migration, legal or illegal.

  30. It is claimed that the higher castes where those who came from central Asia during the “aryan” invasion, and that the lower castes where the original people.

    That spurious claim did not originate with desis. It belongs to the colonial era of self-aggrandizing, crackpot, pseudo-scientific, white race fantasies of the nineteenth century………which directly led to the racial holocausts of the nordics vs non-nordics in Europe, Hutus vs Tutsis in Africa, Punjabis vs Bengalis in the subcontinent and so on.

    That so many desi macaulayite fools continue to claim central asian or european origins, while sporting the chocolate or cinnamon brown arses that are native to India, shows how badly they have been brainwashed by their “english medium”/missionary school education.

  31. Thanks Siddharhta, although I realize you don’t see yourself that way.

    I most certainly do not. And I find the idea that I and my blogger colleagues here “treat Indians like they’re backward pieces of shit” (your words) to be one of the rudest and most insulting things that’s ever been said here.

  32. Siddhartha,

    I do realize that Divya’s characterization is perhaps a bit emotional and extreme, and I can see that it may have been a little harsh on your sensibility. However, lately, it just feels that SM’s tone has just leant a tad towards India/Hindu-bashing. I don’t know if it is due to the increase in the number of polemical commenters with more hard-core leftist/rightist dichotomy or the shrillness of the dialogue, but to a long-time reader and an occasional commenter like me, the blog just seems to have lost a bit of its mojo. Some days, I can’t tell the difference between reading some comments/posts here and reading leftard crapola on counterpunch.org or something. Personally, I do miss the days of Vij’s sophisticated analysis and eclectic taste, and Anna’s straight-from-the-gut blogging her heart out. Amardeep’s more literary posts were also classic. Unfortunately, these days, it’s almost as if SM has become a faint apaprition of a cliched leftist activism or something. A lot of desis don’t really jive well with that vibe. The decidedly leftish tilt of SM, especially in the absence of some good blog-lovin’ from Anna (where are you, sister?) is sort of not doin’ too well.

    I’ve loved reading SM and I think you guys have created something great. But I think what makes SM unique is its unique take stock desi topics of caste, child labout, religion and so on mixed with brilliant and cool stuff like discovering a brilliant blogger like The Barmaid here or reading up on cool authors that Amardeep found. There’s no shortage of places that keep harping on the caste-curry-cow-computer geek stereotypes on the Interweb or Hindu fundie vs. commie pinko flame wars. I think people’s expectations of SM are higher and they have not been met lately.

    Please take this in good faith. If someone like Divya feels the way she does, then perhaps there’s some room for introspection. The sister is not stupid, and even if you don’t agree with her ideology or politics, she is one of the more articulate and literate commenters around here.

    Yes, I do know that I can go elsewhere and read other blogs if I don’t like SM. Or I can write my own blog if I don’t like it here.

  33. Subha, Dont know if you have studied economic or finance and i can say even if you may have, you got jackshit understanding of MONEY $$ & ¢¢. You are trying to compare apples and oranges as equal, clearly a case of a demented brain.

    THINK !!!

    One is a Third World nation of a billion people, where only about 300 million people are middle class, of which about 50 million of them whould have better lifestyles than middle class in America. The other is a First World county with high wages.

    understand that poverty in the US is a relative concept, not absolute, skin sticking to your ribs poverty like in India

    Relative concept, relative to what? generally an average income/ wealth? Take 8 investment bankers in a NY pub, lets say 2 gentlemen walk in, viz Bill Gates and Warren Buffet. The effect is all those bankers just became poor. Thats how relative poverty is a disingenuous concept.

  34. You could consider this thread a kind of Rorschach test. Different commenters clearly see its topic in extremely different ways. Quite interesting.

    I would be open to hearing any sort of actual argument about how HRW is somehow furthering some evil American imperialist agenda. I probably wouldn’t agree, but I could see how that argument would be relevant.

    But most of this has been “What about AMERICA’S problems? What about THOSE?” Beyond a very simple acknowledgement that, yes, America has a history of bad behavior too (which nearly every poster here has done), I just don’t see how that’s relevant at all. On a thread about Dalits, what’s the point of post after post that does nothing but bash the United States?

  35. One of the reasons the Indians were able to survive was precisely because of caste. Anything that has long-term survial mechanisms built into it, has to have a lot of positive attributes. Caste simply cannot be as evil as it is made out to be. It is the poor IndiansÂ’ social security system.

    Another shameless apologist for casteism. So, Divya, how can you, with a straight face even, defend casteism as India’s “social security system” when the ground reality shows that India has by far the worst safety net among the nations of the world?? What other civilized nation tolerates such massive hunger, beggary, homelessness, human degradation etc?

    Your point actually condemns what you are trying to defend……but you are too thick to realize it.

  36. I live between India and abroad, we have very good lives now, my father educated me and i have made a small fortune. We are much better off and richer than most of our higher caste conscious Indian brothers and sisters. most of my friends don’t know my caste and i L O V E it when some fool spits venom on dalits and then i tell them my caste. The most common reaction is stuttering and apologies and the ‘you don’t look like a….’ ,’i didn’t mean you…’ and ‘but you are…’.

    Seperate Plate,

    ROFL.. nice name.. I think you made a mistake. You should have invited those folks home and silently served “beef” / “pork” .. That would have been more fun.

  37. But most of this has been “What about AMERICA’S problems? What about THOSE?” Beyond a very simple acknowledgement that, yes, America has a history of bad behavior too (which nearly every poster here has done),

    In all honesty, it all started with subha ji/ behan going on tirade on “back in texas/ fly indians to nyc jails for good times”. Refer to the chronology of comments, starting from comment #. 79.

    Since you asked about HRW***, here some fodder for you.

    *** I wasn’t itching for it since I see value in HRW (even though I have read some read shoddy pieces by them) but you asked in comment above (#.236) so you know.

    Neal, with due respect, do you even know who a dalit is? Can you please list the dalits (as declared by GOI or State Govt.) of Tamil Nadu, Karnataka, UP, and Bihar****

    **** Because if you did, you will find that a dalit in one state could be high caste in another. Such nuances……hmm………..Me so confused.

  38. could it all have something to so with 500 years of islamic mughal rapine, 200 years of british loot, and 50 years of nehruvian asininity? Just a wild guess.

  39. Seperate (sic) Plate,

    “then i tell them my caste” … “I do not consider myself a Hindu anymore” How do you still have a caste if you’re not Hindu anymore? Aren’t you perpetuating the caste system by clinging on to those titles? I don’t see Europeans going around calling themselves patrician, equestrian, or plebeian. (no one can tell anyways…) Personally, I would have thought that if you’re against the caste system that you’d chide them for asking a question about caste and state that you don’t believe in the caste system (and perhaps don’t believe in Hinduism at all as you pointed out) and have no caste.

    “i have made a small fortune” You wouldn’t mind sharing that a bit with a few charity organizations, I hope?

    “So from these such little experiments for my amusements i have realized that most Indians (not just Hindus)(even IIT graduates and other such great people with supposed high moral grounds) are inherently casteist, because mummy and papa tell then that ‘those people’ are bad since their childhood and then the Indian politicians don’t help either” My experiences are radically different from yours. I have never, never, never, never heard anything bad spoken about Dalits. I’ve (OFTEN) heard bad things spoken about Pakistanis (and I defend them and berate the speaker for generalizing), I’ve (FREQUENTLY) heard bad things spoken about Muslims (mostly from Whites who assume I’m anti-Muslim because I’m Hindu, and I defend Muslims and berate the speaker for generalizing), and I’ve (SOMETIMES) heard bad things about Villagers and Sikh/Turban-jokes and I again point out the ill-humor. I’ve absolutely never met anyone who’s casteist in either the Indian-American or Indian-Indian crowd. I think the fact that no one has ever asked another forum participant for their caste or made caste-general remarks on Sepia Mutiny speaks scores on how the caste system is dying (and the sooner the better). And very few (in fact, your post was the first I read) reveal their own caste. I hate to say it, but I think you might have been hanging out with ignorant folk if your peers were making foul remarks about Dalits.

    • your casteless desi brother.
  40. Neal, with due respect, do you even know who a dalit is? Can you please list the dalits (as declared by GOI or State Govt.) of Tamil Nadu, Karnataka, UP, and Bihar**** **** Because if you did, you will find that a dalit in one state could be high caste in another. Such nuances……hmm………..Me so confused.

    So why not educate instead of getting stuck on the US?

    Hey I admit it, I’m one of those ignorant ABD’s. I’ve seen people act like assholes based on caste issues, and experienced uncomfortable moments when I’ve gone to India, but this isnt a day to day reality for me. But it’s discrimination promoted in the name of my religion. It’s a national embarassment to the nation I still identify with. I would love to understand more about it. I’d love to hear and read more about what’s being done to counter the problem, or what the complexities are. The HRW report doesn’t do that. Most sources discussing caste don’t do that either — preferring instead to present a completely slanted portrayal of Hinduism as an inherently evil faith or of caste being completely innocuous. One of the great things about communities like SM is that they’re resources to learn from people ‘on the ground’.

    This would have been a great place to really have a discussion about a serious topic. Instead it’s become typically content-less and acrimonious. It’s really a waste.

  41. Obviously we are civilized people that have contacted and absorbed and have become one with modern western concepts like human rights. Many modern Indians don’t even speak hindi or bengali, etc. any more. They are people with a humane western outlook. Problem is the other 90% of Indians stuck in the old mentality.

  42. I have never, never, never, never heard anything bad spoken about Dalits……..I’ve absolutely never met anyone who’s casteist in either the Indian-American or Indian-Indian crowd……..the caste system is dying

    Classic example of fundoo deceitfulness and/or delusion. Let me guess: you have also never, never, never, never seen any beggars or malnourished children in India, right? India is shining…

    How many people do you figure you can fool with such outrageous lies, tyrannis? You can find casteist people right here on this forum and all over the internet. You are suffering from a severe case of pathological denial.

  43. And by the way, the linked criticism of HRW seems to be that most countries which attract its gaze more often believe that the organization is simply biased than take its points at face value. That’s not really an “agenda” as much as it’s the typical reaction of nearly any government to bad news.

    HRW isn’t perfect. It’s often simplistic, it doesn’t offer solutions, and it produces remarkably one-sided reports. But the dark insinuations in much of this thread go way beyond just saying that.

  44. Divya,

    “No offence meant. I think people should be proud of their roots. But in my book, only people who are well versed in the vedas and lead an exemplary, restrained lives are brahmins. Yudhishter gives a long spiel in the Mahabharata about what exactly is a brahmin. So that is another reason I challenge people who claim to be brahmins. I don’t believe all people are equal. Some people are more refined and some are trash. If we take brahminhood to be birth-based then this is unfair to the good people among the so-called low caste, and unfairly privileges the sleazy ones who call themselves brahmins just because of their birth. This is a generic comment and not meant to be directed at you in particular at all.”

    Here, here!!! The caste system was never meant to be hereditary (by some accounts), and any sort of notion that lineage guarantees one virtues or vices is a vile notion indeed. One’s caste should be determined by how one conducts one’s life, not by the parents. When I see smokers guzzling liquor and eating burgers between visits to brothels calling themselves Brahmins because of their ancestry I slap my forehead at the irony of it. A (non-hereditary) caste is a lifestyle choice and people shouldn’t gain anything by it other than identifying their lifestyle. Someone cannot truthfully call himself or herself a vegetarian by eating chicken and lamb and saying, “oh, my parents were vegetarian, so I am.” And similarly anyone should be free to choose to be vegetarian, and the act of refraining from meat should be enough to call themselves vegetarian.

  45. And I find the idea that I and my blogger colleagues here “treat Indians like they’re backward pieces of shit” (your words) to be one of the rudest and most insulting things that’s ever been said here.

    I feel insulted too so I guess that makes two of us. It’s one thing if the commenters are crude (I’ll admit I was), but if the bloggers themselves are crude then surely you have no place on that high horse. You just write well so it’s easy to cover up the intellectual crudeness. And in case you’re about to tell me to go read other blogs, please understand not all of us come here looking for love.

    Peace now.

  46. Doordarshan,

    As I stated earlier, “My experiences are radically different from yours,” so don’t insult me by claiming what my experiences are or are not. Don’t further insult me by calling me a fundoo, especially when I’m borderline Agnostic with only some Hindu beliefs.

    “You can find casteist people right here on this forum and all over the internet” Who on this forum has ever demonstrated anti-Dalit sentiment? From my personal experiences, I have never seen caste become an issue because, quite frankly, none of my peers know each other’s caste and would be terrified to speak out of turn. The only venue in where I’ve see caste become an issue, a BIG issue in fact, is with arranged marriages. Never have I see caste-awareness let alone casteism in day-to-day life.

    It’s very ignoble of you to curdle up insults just because my experiences deviate from your world view. You’re perfectly free to supply your own anecdotes which I’m sure will be quite contrary to mine, but to call me a liar is sheer libel and highly disingenuous on your part. I’ve had to deal with oppression in many forms but never because of any caste I’m ascribed to.

  47. Separate plate writes:

    I do not consider myself a Hindu anymore based on the relationship my people have had with the religion and i am skeptical of celebrating Indian culture based on the historic discrimination we have been subjected to.

    Sorry to hear that. I’m sure that those Hindus who treated you with disrespect did not know the core concepts of Hinduism.

    I can understand where you are coming from, but I request you to rethink your views. Slowly but surely, the attitude of centuries is changing. Hindu organisations like RSS/BJP/VHP are instrumental in rebuking casteists and are working hard to eradicate casteism.

    M. Nam