Untouchability: Not Going Away

Straight from the title, “Hidden Apartheid: Caste Discrimination against India’s Untouchables,” you know that the new report from Human Rights Watch (HRW) out today is pulling no punches when it comes to qualifying the extent and seriousness of anti-Dalit discrimination in India today. The comparison with apartheid gained significant political cover two months ago when the prime minister, Manmohan Singh, drew the link in public remarks at a conference in Delhi. Here’s the prime minister:

Singh said: “Dalits have faced a unique discrimination in our society that is fundamentally different from the problems of minority groups in general. The only parallel to the practice of untouchability is apartheid,” he said. “Untouchability is not just social discrimination, it is a blot on humanity,” Singh said.

Calling for a “political, social, cultural and intellectual battle,” against such discrimination, the PM noted that constitutional and administrative measures alone are not sufficient. “Our government is deeply and sincerely committed to the equality of all sections of our society and will take all necessary steps to help in the social, educational and economic empowerment of Dalits. This is our solemn commitment,” Singh said.

Of course the gap between legal remediation and actual practice has been precisely the problem for 57 years, since the Constitution in 1950 outlawed untouchability in all its forms, with further legislation added over the years. The continuing discrimination against Dalits also violates the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, to which India is a signatory, as the convention covers not just what its title narrowly suggests but in fact “race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin.” At any rate, this gap between theory in practice is well known, and the problem has always been to end the actual practices of discrimination, violence, and humiliation that Dalits encounter across India to degrees that perhaps (probably) vary by region and locality but are never, ever trivial.

Consider a few choice quotes from the report’s summary (you can download it or read the whole report online here):

DalitsÂ’ fundamental civil, political, economic, social, and cultural rights are routinely violated by state actors and private individuals, in violation of Article 5 of the Convention. Caste-motivated killings, rapes, and other abuses are a daily occurrence in India, resulting in routine violations of DalitsÂ’ right to security of person and protection of the state. The police have systematically failed to protect Dalit homes and Dalit individuals from acts of looting, arson, sexual assault, torture, and other inhumane acts such as the tonsuring, stripping and parading of Dalit women, and forcing Dalits to drink urine and eat feces. surveyed. …

India has failed to address the multiple forms of discrimination faced by Dalit women. Even as compared to Dalit men, Dalit women do not have equal access to employment opportunities or justice mechanisms. They must contend with threats to their personal security, including trafficking and sexual violence. In some states in India, Dalit women are forced into prostitution under the devadasi system and are ultimately auctioned off to urban brothels. This puts them at particular risk of contracting HIV/AIDS. …

The right to own property is systematically denied to Dalits. Landlessness—encompassing a lack of access to land, inability to own land, and forced evictions—constitutes a crucial element in the subordination of Dalits. Land reform legislation is neither implemented nor properly enforced. When Dalits do manage to acquire land, access to it is often denied. …

The denial of the right to work and free choice of employment lies at the very heart of the caste system. Dalits are forced to perform tasks deemed too “polluting” or degrading for non-Dalits. According to unofficial estimates, more than 1.3 million Dalits—mostly women—are employed as manual scavengers to clear human waste from dry pit latrines. Dalits comprise the majority of agricultural, bonded, and child laborers in the country. …

Manual scavengers are routinely exposed to both human and animal waste without proper protection. This has severe repercussions for their health; most suffer from anemia, diarrhea, vomiting, and respiratory diseases. In many cities, Dalits clear sewage blockages without protective gear. Over 100 die each year from inhaling toxic gases or from drowning in excrement.

The difficult thing is that much of the discrimination against Dalits is well known and considered a fact of life. This isn’t the kind of report that breaks major news that everyone can immediately mobilize around. Rather, it’s a compendium of practices and contradictions and hypocrisies that are all too often recognized individually but either shrugged away as a whole, or, just as often, so daunting in their totality that it’s hard to know what to do. Besides, the only effective political mobilization against these practices will come from Dalits themselves, which means overcoming patterns of intimidation and resignation that are age-old and surmounting a collective action problem of enormous magnitude.

The principal author of the NRW report is a desi sister. Her name is Smita Narula and she is an assistant professor of clinical law at NYU, having previously worked at HRW as their senior researcher for South Asia. You can read more about her here. She also has an audio clip in English and Hindi on the organization’s website in which she states the principal findings and the importance of the issue.

365 thoughts on “Untouchability: Not Going Away

  1. Neal,

    A recent bbc poll found that the majority of Indians felt that casteism posed a major difficulty to India’s advancement.

    We aint stupid buddy, we know we have problems. Do you think we need some NY group to tell us that?

    American elites have systematically covered up the coming global crisis, and its not just the government, it includes a variety of institutions, corporate interests and the media as well. And we shall see what sacrifices energy_rapacious Americans are truly wiling to make to prove that they are not “resisting” the coming global calamity which they would have in large part immorally and unconscionably brought upon the world.

  2. The major point of HRW reports is to catalyze donors, NGOs, and (sometimes) foreign governments.

    Indians know caste is a problem, and a majority want to end it (though not, I’d suspect, if it means giving up anything personally). So why object to an external report detailing that? If you agree that caste is a problem, why does it matter if it’s a New York NGO shouting out about instead of an Indian one?

  3. Plus in prison you get free cable, free weight room, free education, free medical care, you name it.

    Plus, you forgot, you get a free d*ck up the ass.

  4. How a discussion among South Asians about dalits turned into a discussion about American history is a mystery to me. We don’t need HRW to tell us we have caste dicrimination, pick up a bloody newpaper and discuss. There are regular reports about this in Indian media. Screw HRW, discuss dalits and their situation in India.

  5. Let me make this simple for the simpletons: yes, the US history of slavery and it’s treatment of native americans was shameful. Name a country that doesn’t have some kind of past like this?

    While I’m actually sort of on your side in this debate MD, the US race-based slavery institution (and its ramifications: 3/5 compromise, 40 acres and mule, jim crow) and extermination of its indiginous population is quite unique. No country in contemporary history (~300 years back) I can think of comes close.

  6. Neal

    “Indians know caste is a problem, and a majority want to end it (though not, I’d suspect, if it means giving up anything personally).”

    That is partly true, one thing should be rembered about opinion polls in India, they are made inte meropolitan cities, Mumbai, Kolkata, Dehli and Bangalore. Caste discrmination is little to none there, nobody acres, nobody knows unless they are getting married. They are just as shocked as you when they read in the news paper about high caste men raping a dalit girl as a punishment in a remote village some where in Bihar. To these people caste is not a problem, it’s the very definition of who they are.

  7. The jews, HMF? The Bengal famine? etc, etc.

    I give up on this thread. I don’t think some of you really care about human rights, at all. YOu are more interested in the superiority of your own than you are in helping the most unfortunate amongst us.

  8. Brazil? Mexico?

    African slavery and extermination of Native Americans were brutal crimes against humanity. But they were crimes that were widespread throughout the Americas. I don’t want to excuse Americans from our historical responsibility, but lets not go too far the other way either.

  9. HMF

    The arab countries and indeed the african the selves where pioneers in the field of slavery. Extintion of native Indians was not due to war, but mainly due to disease. As shameful as there history is, it is by no mean unique, caompared to arab discrimination of african yesterday, and today in countries like Darfur. And that goes for discrimination against South Asians as well, there is no other place in the world where we are treated as badly as in the ME.

  10. Samjay,

    Did you bother to read my post? Columbus Day has been celebrated IN AMERICA as the seminal event in the history of the New World. As with much of apologist history, it has been treated in a manner that fits the American narrative of “discovery.”But the seminal event was a murderous one for the native inhabitants. Would you like me to post examples of American government brutality towards Indians? There are thousands of examples.

    Better yet, go spend some time in Americas Dalit colonies, the Indian reservations. It will be a refreshing break from the software park!

  11. Carib Queen

    Most dalits have traditionally and unfortunately for them been communist leaning. That goes for the tribal people as well. Many of them have from time to time been radicalized, originally funded by the chineese, these days you see connections with ISI and arab terror organizations.

  12. The arab countries and indeed the african the selves where pioneers in the field of slavery

    Not based on race, and not having the centuries of ramifications (Jim Crow, etc..), introducing a foreign population into one’s borders for the purpose of building the strongest economy in the world is quite unique. No, it doesn’t exonerate crimes all over the world, but let’s not start rubbing our hands together and screaming “wash” when it’s not applicable.

    It would help to actually read what I said.

  13. HMF

    are you telling me that arab enslavement of africans has not been based on race? So what has it been based on then? Black slaves has been visible through out the arab world long before they entered America.

    If slave trade was such a boon to the ecenomy, Brazil would have been the richest country in the world.

  14. HMF

    Jim Crow, Emmet Till, these are people you know the name of. Fifteen, FIFTEEN Indians are hanged in Sadiarabia every year, under very suspect circumstances, these are Jim Crow and Emmet Till cases all of them, but you never hear their names or any Indian protests. We keep getting angry about Shilpa Shetty and 300 years of American history, that makes mesick. We should get our priorities right.

  15. I agree with MD, for most part these forums become platforms to showoff their partial knowledge of facts or as Abhi pointed out sometime back, blatant jingoism. There is blatant disregard for attempting to find a solution, I have hardly ever seen any of these discussion go beyond fault finding, we know the shortcomings exist, is there anyone here that would like to contribute to the solution?

  16. Well if “becoming the strongest country in the world” has to be part of the measure, then of course the USA can’t be compared to anyone else. But that had as much to do with culture, natural resources, and luck as it did with slavery and the Native American genocide. From the 17th through the 19th century, when we were right in the thick of our worst human rights abuses (and when it was by no means clear that America would be the major regional power, let alone the global superpower), nearly every other country in this hemisphere was doing much the same thing. Even the Canadians. Especially the Mexicans and South/Central American states. Doesn’t anyone remember Cortez?

    And yes, most nations have a long history of complicated relations with former indigenous and/or ethnic minorities. America’s long history of racial separation is a shameful one, but echoes can be found throughout the world. People are just bastards to each other. Australia’s treatment of its aborigines was more reliably horrible (even from the very start of American colonization there were powerful political voices agitating for abolition and humane treatment for Native Americans), and its period of segregation lasted longer. Much of Continental Europe is just now emerging from the Dark Ages when it comes to race, and some countries are really having a hard time dealing with it. Russia with its Jews and Muslims. Turkey with its Armenians. Europe’s whole history of colonialism.

    Again, this doesn’t excuse anything the USA has done. This was a nation founded on slave labor, and we live with the consequences of that (Lincoln said it would be just if the US was paying “until all the wealth piled by the bondsman’s two hundred and fifty years of unrequited toil shall be sunk, and until every drop of blood drawn with the lash shall be paid by another drawn with the sword”, so we have a ways to go). This was a nation that coldly murdered Native Americans, engaged in biological warfare, went back on its word, and massacred thousands with no repercussions (and no, it was not all “just disease”, Google “Sand Creek”). But the sick thing about the world is that even with all of that, we are not unique. I think it’s our tragic awareness of just how terrible this country has acted in the past that allows some of us to really take the concept of human rights seriously. Too many nations which share our history don’t do that at all.

  17. Sakshi, the message I took away from the HRW report was not so much that nothing is being done to help Dalits move forward, or that there is no progress, but that time and time again when Dalits try to use the means of legal recourse available to make people pay for (sometimes pretty horrendous) acts of discrimination and violence, the state, police and courts, and even many upper caste politicians, fail to give them their due. The development indicators are one part of the story, the daily humiliation and dehumanisation is another.

    SP:, I can see your point. But bringing the social indicators on par with everyone else is, IMO, the essential first step. For example, the low levels of literacy means dalits have fewer representatives in the Indian bureaucracy and law enforcement (though I am honestly surprised having so many dalit representatives in local and national politics has not helped the dalits). Unfortunately there is no easy way out of this problem. One can talk of stricter law enforcement, but that doesn’t mean much in practise, so long as the hawaldars are themselves local guys with the same local sympathies and prejudices.

    I think that’s why they chose to use the (consciously provocative) term “apartheid.” Again, the HRW report is important, if depressing, reading.

    I can see that they are being consciously provocative with the term apartheid. But technically the term is completely off the mark as the discrimination is certainly not institutionalized by the government.

  18. Samjay,

    With due respect, are you out of your mind? Do you think American discriminatory practices are “history”?

    The solution to the Native American “problem” was extermination. For the African-American population, its imprisonment. One of of ten African-Americans is in JAIL!! And the average prison sentence is 70 percent longer than a comparable one meted out to whites.

  19. DIVYA @ 30: Your observation is duly noted – but it is only half truth – If you go back to any and all references I have made to caste or gotra for Abhi and Me,I have always maintained the position and said “Not that it really matters”. The sooner we leave the baggage of the whole notion of caste and old worn out traditions from back home, the better human beings we all shall be. I have repeatedly made references to our species as “Homo Sapiens Sapiens” ! Although some of us may still qualify for “Cro magnon” !!! Yeesss baby I am back!!!

  20. Neal

    Hear hear. That said, I would like to state that India does a reasonably good job of introspecting crticism. Anyone who has ever been inthe Middle East or China should know. We should be proud that our desh can take crticism in a mature way, instead of throwing back accusations as many countries do. The reason why we never hear about the atrocities commited by the chineese and the arabs is because their societies doesn’t allow inspection, it’s not because they have a less tainted history than us or the US.

  21. hara hara

    No, discrimination exits here as in any country, but I give up. Fuck the dalits, who cares. African Americans are worse of anyway, what ever that had to do with it in the first place.

  22. This report was timely and required. It is probable that as India gets more industrialized, non-economic divisions with recede in significance and “all that is solid” will indeed “melt into air”. But of course this is merely one possible outcome among multiple other sub-optimal (from the normative perspective)equilibria/outcomes.

  23. The most frustrating thing about this report is that, after devoting much discussion to the scope of the problem, HRW’s proposed solutions are incredibly vague. They’re along the lines of “somebody should DO something about all of these PROBLEMS!”:

    • Eradicate caste-based segregation in residential areas and schools, and in access to public services.

    • Implement laws and government policies to protect Dalits, and Dalit women in particular, from physical and sexual violence.

    • Ensure appropriate reforms to eliminate police abuses against Dalits and other marginalized communities. • Ensure proper investigation and prosecution of crimes against Dalits. • Identify obstacles in the implementation of legislation designed to protect Dalits and take steps to overcome these obstacles. In particular, ensure the effective eradication of exploitative labor arrangements and implement rehabilitation schemes for Dalit bonded and child laborers, manual scavengers, and for Dalit women forced into prostitution. • Combat hate speech and other actions inciting caste or religion based discrimination and violence. • Implement the recommendations of the 2004 National Human Rights Commission report on atrocities against Dalits. • Ensure proper implementation of the “reservations” policy, including providing protection for Dalit candidates in local elections. • Ensure proper implementation and monitoring of Dalit development programs.

    The Dalit issue is a unique one because it’s one where the central government has been far more liberal than the state and local governments for decades. How does HRW expect “India” (the authors rarely differentiate between state and private actors, or state actors at different levels of government) to get to this point?

  24. I think it’s mainly an economical problem, it’s rural India that suffers with this problem. Urban India have many problems, but this is not one of them. When dalits can get away from the landowning farmers and get jobs in the textile industry, they are also able to escape the discrimination.

  25. It would be helpful to have a state by state breakdown of caste atrocities and discrimination, however measured. Then we could get some idea of who is doing better than others, and determine if there is a salient reason for that achievement.

  26. “We keep getting angry about Shilpa Shetty and 300 years of American history, that makes mesick. We should get our priorities right.”

    Samjay we should get our priorities right…but we don’t. What does that tell us?

    “Indians know caste is a problem, and a majority want to end it (though not, I’d suspect, if it means giving up anything personally).”

    Neal...this is exactly the problem...without personal investment we stand only on empty rhetoric....But we desis are good at that...it's like our national hobby.
    
  27. mr. Empty rhetoric, Nehru himself founded the country and his daughter carried the torch. Don’t think it’s that bad though, if you read indian newspapers there is plenty of introspection and crtiticism.

  28. The most frustrating thing about this report is that, after devoting much discussion to the scope of the problem, HRW’s proposed solutions are incredibly vague. They’re along the lines of “somebody should DO something about all of these PROBLEMS!”:

    That is probably to do with the context of the report. From the cover page of the report:

    The India report being considered by CERD [UN committee on elimination of racial discrimination] in February 2007 (the report was more than eight years overdue when it was submitted) covers more than a decade of India’s compliance with the Convention (from 1996 to 2006) yet does not contain a single mention of abuses against Dalits—abuses that India’s own governmental agencies have documented and verified. This report fills that gap and presents CERD members with information that we believe is essential to a fair assessment of India’s record and, ultimately, to encouraging the government to live up to its treaty obligations.

    I think the reason the Indian govt did not submit this has something to do with it not recognizing discrimination against dalits as racial discrimination(as dalits are not seen as a separate race), and as something of an ‘internal matter’ between Indians (that might explain some of the hostility here).

    At the same time, the report is rather vague on the exact nature of the statistics. For example, when the report says that in 25-30% of the villages, dalits were denied entry into police stations. It is not clear whether this means such an event happened at least once in the village, or is the status quo. While both situtations are unfair, the ramifications are very different. The same applies to other statistics too.

  29. “introspection and crtiticism.”

    This is not the same as accountability. I think Indians love the idea of ‘ranking’ and ‘status’ waaaaayyyyy too much …it’s one of the reasons the British felt so at home. We understood ‘status’ and what it was to be ‘the right sort’ of person.

  30. are you telling me that arab enslavement of africans has not been based on race?

    Excerpted from this link:

    “Some Arabs were Arab linguistically but racially African (see definition of Arab. Thus, the Arab trade in enslaved Africans was not only conducted by Asiatic and Caucasian Arabs, but also African Arab”

    “Another reason is the legacy of the Arab Slave Trade is far less impacting than the European trade in enslaved Africans, as there are no ghettos or prison complexes in Arabian lands overflowing with African people. The African Diaspora in Arab lands has almost disappeared through inter-marriage.”

  31. Neale,

    I agree. I read through the recommendations section of the report and its very vague, basically non-actionable. It is helpful in providing some data (and raising awareness) but that’s about all.

  32. Eradicate caste-based segregation in residential areas and schools, and in access to public services.

    Interesting. First of all, this is obviously a reference to de facto segregation, since the Indian government does not advance segregation as a policy. De facto segregation is a very difficult problem to address, because it occurs in spite of state policy rather than because of it. It also exists in the US to some degree, i.e. white flight has essentially guaranteed partially or fully segregated public schools in the inner cities of large metropolitan areas.

    To the extent that state agencies in India can do something to prevent de facto segregation, this recommendation makes sense. Certainly, the state has control over public services and schools.

    How do you eradicate de facto segregation in residential areas? Is the Indian government going to step in and tell people where they should live? Are they going to forcibly move village Dalits into the zamindar’s haveli? I just don’t see how it’s possible to do this, even though I think the effort would be laudable.

  33. I went to university with quite a few people who identified themselves as Dalits(both Hindu and Christian). Some of them were children of people who drove Pallavan Transport Corporation buses in Madras-from what I know of PTC salaries, I don’t think they would have had too many economic advantages. I know that many of my classmates are doing very well, have built homes for their parents in their villages etc. Sometimes Tamil Nadu’s “reservation” system really does benefit those it is supposed to. At the same time, some people from what have been historically considered “backward castes” (in Tamil Nadu) end up in university through the quota alloted to their caste, even though they have had no financial/social disadvantages because of their caste. This is the most annoying part of the quota system (which I fully support if it means at least some people get a fair shot at an education). However, people who don’t really need it benefit by the system, and that’s where a lot of damage is done to the cause of most disadvantaged “backward caste” communities.

  34. It would be helpful to have a state by state breakdown of caste atrocities and discrimination, however measured. Then we could get some idea of who is doing better than others, and determine if there is a salient reason for that achievement.

    You can find a table detailing state-wise atrocities against dalits, and also ranking of states based on crimes againts dalits here. Just keep scrolling till you come to table 2, which gives the absolute numbers per state. Table 3(bottom of page) gives state ranks normalized per lakh of SC population. The tables are based on data provided by the The National Commission for Scheduled Castes and Scheduled Tribes (click on the TOC link on top for the entire report).

    There is more detailed information in the link I provided above (#108), though it is limited only to 11 sample states.

    There are a few caveats here: a) the data is rather old, b) some areas may look better than they are due to underreporting, c) the data covers all types of crimes (theft, etc), which may not be directly related to a person’s caste.

  35. Your observation is duly noted – but it is only half truth – If you go back to any and all references I have made to caste or gotra for Abhi and Me,I have always maintained the position and said “Not that it really matters”. The sooner we leave the baggage of the whole notion of caste and old worn out traditions from back home, the better human beings we all shall be. I have repeatedly made references to our species as “Homo Sapiens Sapiens” ! Although some of us may still qualify for “Cro magnon” !!! Yeesss baby I am back!!!

    Yo Dad! I did note that you said that it didn’t matter. But nevertheless it is jarring, when it comes from people who say that they are above it all (and I sincerely believe that you are above it all). Why say it if it doesn’t matter? A harijan cannot say, I am considered lowest of the low but it doesn’t matter. As for Abhi, I found that jarring too – he said something like my parents are brahmins but I don’t care. The only reason I even remembered it was because I had gotten into a blog fight over caste on another site where my opponent made the same comment (we’re brahmins and it doesn’t mean a shit) and I called him out on it.

    No offence meant. I think people should be proud of their roots. But in my book, only people who are well versed in the vedas and lead an exemplary, restrained lives are brahmins. Yudhishter gives a long spiel in the Mahabharata about what exactly is a brahmin. So that is another reason I challenge people who claim to be brahmins. I don’t believe all people are equal. Some people are more refined and some are trash. If we take brahminhood to be birth-based then this is unfair to the good people among the so-called low caste, and unfairly privileges the sleazy ones who call themselves brahmins just because of their birth. This is a generic comment and not meant to be directed at you in particular at all. I also realize my comment may have been a bit unfair because as I said in my post it is meaningless for an indian to mention caste and the comment is usually made in some context. Nevertheless, I hate SM for the way it treats Indians like they’re backward pieces of shit and I could not pass up the opportunity.

  36. Samjay,

    That the US chooses to imprison descendants of its former slaves at an astonishingly high rate to keep its streets “safe and clean” for its whites means that we should fuck the Dalits??

    Grow up buddy!

  37. hara hara

    Growing is an aging process, maybe in time I will reach the same levels of wisdom as you. Because at this young age I fail to see the connection between dalits and prisons i the US.

    Although keeping streets safe and clean seems to be the normal reason for a state to lock inmates. I highly doubt the US stands out in that aspect. What is the reason behind imprisonment in the Desh, funny hair style, bad teeth, snogging the parks? Please enlighten me.

  38. Samjay,

    Don’t be facile buddy. Its discrimination by descent. That you think the US doesn’t stand out proves you are ignorant about this disturbing issue.

    In the US a black man has a 1 in 3 chance of going to prison in his lifetime. Can you stomach that?

    For a white, its 1 in 20.

    The US has the highest imprisonment rate in the WORLD, look it up.

    Its not even comparable to other “developed” nations.

  39. Forget about prisons. Start with something easy, like the SPCA. Go to any SPCA in America and see the sanitary conditions there and the level of humanity and caring. They even offer free surgical procedures for population control, massages, etc. What a lesson for the Desh in how to treat the most vulnerable “members” of society.

  40. They even offer free surgical procedures for population control, massages, etc.

    First obviously you don’t know about the family planning initiatives which are free to all Indians, IF THEY WANT. Indian government gives a choice, they don’t go about aborting babies because people like you complain about population. As for massages, I can clearly see what your priorities about life are.

  41. So the US treats its puppy dogs well? Sure, after exterminating its native “trouble-making savage” inhabitants, it can afford to be kind. So-called liberal societies are built upon centuries of inhumane depredation-whether colonialism or slavery or genocide. That they think they have the moral authority to lecture the world twenty years after they correct on or another of their evils is one of the great ironies of the modern world.

    And look up some pet euthanasia figures, how many animals are put to sleep in this country because they are not a proper “fit.”

    And then look up meat-industry practices, and prepare to be disgusted.

    Psshaw.

  42. iFOB,

    “At least India has laws and had a “dalit” President – K.R.Narayanan. Not because he was dalit, but he was an intelligent foreign service officer who moved onto politics.”

    I think you’ve hit the nail right on the head. I don’t think Dalits are discriminated upon for being Dalits. Their nominal caste is irrelevant. A well-to-do, affluent, charismatic, learned man like Narayanan will be treated with dignity and respect no matter what his caste is. An impoverished, uneducated, man will be looked down upon no matter what his caste is. The legacy of the caste system, and not any present observance of it, results in an underrepresentation of Dalits among the affluent and overrepresentation of Dalits among the downtrodden. I don’t think many people swiveling on wheely chairs and clacking away sanctimonious sentiment on internet forums realize how much affirmative action (Reservation System) and other uplifting laws and charities the Indian govt and people have committed great time and energy toward. By completely disregarding the decades of uplifting that have been done and are continuing to be done is myopia at its vainest.

  43. Sigh. While I think the HRW report is very, very weak in terms of solutions, it’s very strong in providing concrete examples of abuse based on caste. It’s not all of the “poor people are inherently oppressed” variety, no more than treatment of African-Americans here in the USA is based on class.

    How many posters even read the report before jumping in to either “butt out America/defend the Desh!” or “fuckin Hindoos!” mode?

  44. Neal,

    “How many posters even read the report”

    You do realize the report is 113 pages, right? Did you read it?

  45. The summary is 12 pages and addresses many of the points made here.

    I’ve read a substantial part of the full report, but not the whole thing yet.

    I shouldn’t have used that tone, but it gets a bit frustrating to see arguments against the validity of a report that aren’t substantively accurate. Particuarly when those objections are used to dance around the issue and deflect on to tangents (not saying that’s what you’re doing, sic semper, but that’s been a problem on this topic). Anyway, I’m sorry.