Straight from the title, “Hidden Apartheid: Caste Discrimination against India’s Untouchables,” you know that the new report from Human Rights Watch (HRW) out today is pulling no punches when it comes to qualifying the extent and seriousness of anti-Dalit discrimination in India today. The comparison with apartheid gained significant political cover two months ago when the prime minister, Manmohan Singh, drew the link in public remarks at a conference in Delhi. Here’s the prime minister:
Singh said: “Dalits have faced a unique discrimination in our society that is fundamentally different from the problems of minority groups in general. The only parallel to the practice of untouchability is apartheid,” he said. “Untouchability is not just social discrimination, it is a blot on humanity,” Singh said.
Calling for a “political, social, cultural and intellectual battle,” against such discrimination, the PM noted that constitutional and administrative measures alone are not sufficient. “Our government is deeply and sincerely committed to the equality of all sections of our society and will take all necessary steps to help in the social, educational and economic empowerment of Dalits. This is our solemn commitment,” Singh said.
Of course the gap between legal remediation and actual practice has been precisely the problem for 57 years, since the Constitution in 1950 outlawed untouchability in all its forms, with further legislation added over the years. The continuing discrimination against Dalits also violates the International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination, to which India is a signatory, as the convention covers not just what its title narrowly suggests but in fact “race, colour, descent, or national or ethnic origin.” At any rate, this gap between theory in practice is well known, and the problem has always been to end the actual practices of discrimination, violence, and humiliation that Dalits encounter across India to degrees that perhaps (probably) vary by region and locality but are never, ever trivial.
Consider a few choice quotes from the report’s summary (you can download it or read the whole report online here):
DalitsÂ’ fundamental civil, political, economic, social, and cultural rights are routinely violated by state actors and private individuals, in violation of Article 5 of the Convention. Caste-motivated killings, rapes, and other abuses are a daily occurrence in India, resulting in routine violations of DalitsÂ’ right to security of person and protection of the state. The police have systematically failed to protect Dalit homes and Dalit individuals from acts of looting, arson, sexual assault, torture, and other inhumane acts such as the tonsuring, stripping and parading of Dalit women, and forcing Dalits to drink urine and eat feces. surveyed. …
India has failed to address the multiple forms of discrimination faced by Dalit women. Even as compared to Dalit men, Dalit women do not have equal access to employment opportunities or justice mechanisms. They must contend with threats to their personal security, including trafficking and sexual violence. In some states in India, Dalit women are forced into prostitution under the devadasi system and are ultimately auctioned off to urban brothels. This puts them at particular risk of contracting HIV/AIDS. …
The right to own property is systematically denied to Dalits. Landlessness—encompassing a lack of access to land, inability to own land, and forced evictions—constitutes a crucial element in the subordination of Dalits. Land reform legislation is neither implemented nor properly enforced. When Dalits do manage to acquire land, access to it is often denied. …
The denial of the right to work and free choice of employment lies at the very heart of the caste system. Dalits are forced to perform tasks deemed too “polluting” or degrading for non-Dalits. According to unofficial estimates, more than 1.3 million Dalits—mostly women—are employed as manual scavengers to clear human waste from dry pit latrines. Dalits comprise the majority of agricultural, bonded, and child laborers in the country. …
Manual scavengers are routinely exposed to both human and animal waste without proper protection. This has severe repercussions for their health; most suffer from anemia, diarrhea, vomiting, and respiratory diseases. In many cities, Dalits clear sewage blockages without protective gear. Over 100 die each year from inhaling toxic gases or from drowning in excrement.
The difficult thing is that much of the discrimination against Dalits is well known and considered a fact of life. This isn’t the kind of report that breaks major news that everyone can immediately mobilize around. Rather, it’s a compendium of practices and contradictions and hypocrisies that are all too often recognized individually but either shrugged away as a whole, or, just as often, so daunting in their totality that it’s hard to know what to do. Besides, the only effective political mobilization against these practices will come from Dalits themselves, which means overcoming patterns of intimidation and resignation that are age-old and surmounting a collective action problem of enormous magnitude.
The principal author of the NRW report is a desi sister. Her name is Smita Narula and she is an assistant professor of clinical law at NYU, having previously worked at HRW as their senior researcher for South Asia. You can read more about her here. She also has an audio clip in English and Hindi on the organization’s website in which she states the principal findings and the importance of the issue.
subha,
You have seriously lost it.
US is one of the richest and the most powerful nation in the world.
India as a whole is still a poor nation. Check the CIA website for per capita numbers.
Comparing both in absolute terms is absurd. It is hubris of the highest order.
Are poor in India in bad shape, yes.
Are poor in US in bad shape, yes. India is worse. However, an average African American here also is in a tight bind, living in a rich country but thrown to the sidelines for last 200-300 years.
A poor is poor in India – be it Brahmin or Dalit. Yes, a dalit is more likely to be poor but there are no promises for Brahmin either.
A country with billion people has it own challenges. Yet, it tries. Compare the population, land area, population density, etc before go on tirade.
No harm in critique, at least be intelligent about it.
Grotesque statements (hundreds and thousands on footpath outside your hotel; fly them to NYC jails for good times) are not only insult to everyone’s intelligence but mostly to the dignity poor people who struggle back in India.
Holy mother India preaching to the world about dignity, compassion and morals bla bla bla. Like I said, you’re on crack.
Wow, this thread has degenerated. I’m a bit disappointed.
Question for the types who like numbers: there has been good growth in the black middle class in the US, with subsequent drop in the rate of poverty. It’s still not good as it could or should be, but the trends are up, not down, in terms of being recruited into the middle class. It’s the Tyler Perry phenom! Anyway, how does the growth of the middle class in India compare as a phenomenon to the growth of the black middle class and can we even compare the two? And what is the average life like for a middle class Indian, middle class white in the US and middle class black in the US? Numbers like home ownership, going to college, savings, etc.
I feel like this has devolved into a pi*ssing match; chest thumping over which is the better country. An Indian, who loves his country will probably say India. An American who loves his country will probably say America. That, in and of itself, gets us nowhere……like I said earlier. Indians and Americans can be very similar in some ways.
Dalits and their oppressors are the same race. It is not really comparable to the racial apartheid system in South Africa, which also put indians below whites and the white-black mixed race.
not being taken into account is the population growth. Greater numbers of dalits are being provided more opportunities than before, but it is hard to visibly see the effects, since the overall population of all including dalits (and the poor, homeless etc.) is increasing. Hence on the one hand some see political figures like Mayawati as symbolizing lower caste power, but others think it is only a token, as they can see more numbers of poor and oppressed people out there.
Hema @ #50 – yes, of course, that’s always part of it! This is after all hamara gorrment mahaan…
Subha @ #88 – Gandhi expressed such sentiments in his ideas of antyodaya, i.e., every policy and every government’s success should be measured in terms of how much it does for the poorest of the poor. One of the dumbest things the Indian govt ever did was to focus the bulk of its education budget to subsidise higher education so that people who were probably able to afford it anyway could go to college (or IIT) for practically free. If they had prioritised investment in primary education and maybe taken land reform a bit more seriously, like Korea, they might have been able to break some of the economic shackles that keep dalits tied to their landless serf-like status in so many rural areas.
I pretty much expected the knee-jerk defensive so’s-your-old-man and it’s-not-that-bad denials and missionary conspiracy theories, but am still rather surprised that people would do so in such a straightfaced fashion after reading the report. Or wait, they probably haven’t read the report, with its meticulous documentation, and they probably are just annoyed that they should have to feel bad about their motherland, the 100+ million who live this way aren’t relevant. It’s sad that this is so much more acceptable than, say, denial of the effects of anti-Semitism or institutionalised racism in the U.S.
Whoever said “caste is virtually irrelevant in most Indian cities” – come to any of the Dalit colonies in Bombay.
Wow! Looks like I missed the fireworks.
There doesn’t seem to be much statistics on these issues online. I could find only one report (link), by the Indian Institute of Dalit Studies. According to the statistics (page 19) on poverty incidence (% below poverty line), 46% of Indians overall were below the poverty line, compared to 58% of dalits, in 1983. In 2000, the numbers stand at 27% overall and 36% for dalits. That is a 30% decrease overall, and a 38% decrease for dalits.
A 1986-1990 survey showed the values as 54 years overall and 58 years for dalits. Based on a 1994-1998 survey (page 21), the average life expectancy for an Indian is 61 years overall, and 59 years for dalits.
The literacy rates for dalits (page 20) are really terrible: a mere 29%, compared to 48% overall. One of the big reasons for this is that literacy among dalit women stands at 14%. However, this data is based on a rather old(1991) survey. I’d expect things to have improved since then (as they have for other statistics).
Infant mortality rates among dalits (page 22) stood at 107 in 1992-1993, and 86 overall. By 1998-1999, the mortality rate was down to 83 for dalits (a 22.5% drop), and 73 overall (a 13% drop).
There’s a couple of other statistics in the report. Please go through it and draw your own conclusions.
It is clear that the dalits are behind others in terms of most statistics. The literacy gap in particular looks more like a chasm. The statistics for female literacy are extremely shocking. At the same time comparisons such as apartheid seem to be unwarranted: dalits do not seem to be left behind as society moves forward. They are coming along for the ride. The gap for healthcare, life expectancy, etc, it can be hoped, will be bridged in a few decades. Literacy will probably take longer.
Oops! This should read as: A 1986-1990 survey on life expectancy showed the values as 54 years overall and 58 years for dalits. Based on a 1994-1998 survey (page 21), the average life expectancy for an Indian is 61 years overall, and 59 years for dalits.
Sh*t!
Its the other way around:
A 1986-1990 survey on life expectancy showed the values as 58 years overall and 54 years for dalits.
Sorry. Its almost morning here.
Sakshi, the message I took away from the HRW report was not so much that nothing is being done to help Dalits move forward, or that there is no progress, but that time and time again when Dalits try to use the means of legal recourse available to make people pay for (sometimes pretty horrendous) acts of discrimination and violence, the state, police and courts, and even many upper caste politicians, fail to give them their due. The development indicators are one part of the story, the daily humiliation and dehumanisation is another. I think that’s why they chose to use the (consciously provocative) term “apartheid.” Again, the HRW report is important, if depressing, reading.
“Ever since Dr Ambedkar and the proclamation of Universal Suffrage, India as a society has treated dalits much better than the US has treated non-whites, especially blacks.”
Yes, South Asians are treated worse than dalits in this country. Yeah right. Get a grip. Have any of you people ever been in rural India, for real? Or do you just spend your vacations in Dehli and Bangalore?
The caste system should be abolished – period.
If the HRW is making these allegations, they must be true. Definitely. No doubt about it.
I like Smita Narula. She’s so… articulate!
The thing is: Caste is not systematic. It’s effects are not deterministic. Something can be called as a “system” if it behaves exactly the same way under given set of core parameters. A lower caste person is treated differently in rural Bengal than in New Delhi. A Dalit has different experiences in Kerala vs TN.
So – it’s not a system. I’d call it the Caste Culture. And cultures cannot be abolished – they have to evolve. As anyone with an open mind can see, the caste culture has evolved in the last fifty years – the effects of evolution are yet to tricle down into remote regions of India.
M. Nam
“As anyone with an open mind can see, the caste culture has evolved in the last fifty years – the effects of evolution are yet to tricle down into remote regions of India.”
saying such things means you condone the caste system – period.
Are American apologists for real? Have they heard the comments whites make in their cubicles about “bad” neighborhoods, which is code for black? Have they BEEN to a black neighborhood? Whites are trained since childhood to avoid blacks in social situations, because its supposedly unsafe. They would NEVER send their children to a majority-minority school unless they were dirt poor. And let’s not forget the race system is built on the extinguishment of millions of red Indians. It amazes me that anyone would take American moral authority seriously!
Actually, the only people who have to take it seriously are the families of those whose heads have been blown off in its adventures abroad.
oops, forgot the {sarcasm} {/sarcasm} tags previously 😉
hara hara
When it comes to racism against african americans, south&east asians win that contest by far. My parents still refer to them as nigro. We avoid mixing with african americans to a far greater extent than whithes ever did, heck we lived in Uganda for hundreds of years without ever intermarrying.
Who is the apologist here? We are a group of Indians discussing caste discrmination in our society here and in the Desh, and people bring up white americans in the discussion. C’mon, thats what I call apologist, for real. Caste discrmination is a live and kicking in our society regardless of happens else where.
Moor Nam – of course caste doesn’t operate the same way in all regions (particularly in the huge, nebulous area of the “middle” castes), but if you read the report, you’ll see that caste seems to work in a pretty darned systematic way when it comes to Dalits.
Divya – are crimes against Dalits always “caste crimes”? Well, the crimes documented in the report show quite clearly that they were justified and prosecuted (leniently or not at all) on the basis of caste.
I suggest you get off the meth you stole from some white trash.
Very funny, i wonder who is the meth addicted “cherry” picker. Why are we not talking “cold hard facts” about Tamilnadu or Kerala? oh wait, that would not make you happy, would it?.
SP:
It’s sad that this is so much more acceptable than, say, denial of the effects of anti-Semitism or institutionalised racism in the U.S.
It’s not more acceptable by any means. It’s just that the genuinely huge obstacles faced by Dalits in India is not comparable to the situation faced by the urban poor in the US. Different pressures are brought to bear on each situation, and it’s unfair (to both communities) to compare one with the other.
It’s too easy to say, “wow, any poor Dalit in India would be better off as a black man in America”. That statement doesn’t take into account the differences in the history of the two countries/societies, problems produced by overpopulation in India, and the vagaries of income distribution methods in both countries.
I’d like to see people discuss the Dalit situation in isolation, without constantly bringing up the fact that the US has done better by its own oppressed classes. That’s all.
According to UN Human development Index, only 24% of the population are below poverty line. The president reduced it to 22% during his republic day speech, saying the last five years have shaved off another 2%.
“I’d like to see people discuss the Dalit situation in isolation, without constantly bringing up the fact that the US has done better by its own oppressed classes. That’s all.”
Thats true, but I really don’t know what came first here. Every time the situation of dalits or women in India comes up, italways ends with amrica isn’t much better. That sort of kneejerk reaction would have been understandable if this would have been a discussion among a group of white americans. But we are all of Indian origin, yet we do not seem to be able to discuss the dalit situation with out bringing america up.
Sadly enough, those who are apologists now, where thwy who where screaming the loudest at the candy floss racism i Celebrity Big Brother.
Sadly enough, those who are apologists now, where thwy who where screaming the loudest at the candy floss racism i Celebrity Big Brother.
Baloney. There was plenty of India-related criticism both in the comments here and the Indian press. You see what you want to see.
I think this thread was going along fine. What turned it into a slugfest was subha “down with brown.” Frankly, if you’re going to hit that provactively and hard, you have to expect some blowback.
Of course, the real irony is tat such a comment exposes the deep racism in the US society by not even naming the right minority group that’d be apt in this comparison. Thisis of course, the native amaericans – the big elephant in the room that nobody wants to talk about. Those who exhort us about finding conditions in Indian villages are probably not going to set foot even within a 100 miles of a reservation rife with its problems of illiteracy, addiction, prostitution and so on. Those who talk about dalit colonies in India should go and compare them with the ghettos in every American city – which I personally found shocking. All across America – from 8th mile in Detroit to south side in Chicago to poor balck quarters in Miami, Houston and LA – that’s the living demonstration of apartheid, not in India.
Which brings me to the real problem with the likes of HRW – it’s the hypocrisy and pontification that is cringe-inducing. It’s this colonial mindset of sitting in judgement upon the other that is rather insulting. After all, if HRW is really concerned about apartheid, it doesn’t have to start too far from its HQ in New York City : just go to any native reservation in upstate New York or Canada. Across the Atlantic, they could find the roma gypsies treated in a despicable fashion all across Europe. The so-called civilized Europe does not even gurantee legal equality or protection of the fundamental rights of these poor people. Although these HR abuses are much much worse, HRW speaks nothing of it. But they are all over the brown and black countries with shrill headlines proclaiming apartheid!! If this is not a manifestation of institutionalised racism and white paternalism, I don’t know what will be.
This is why comparisons to America are an inevitable part of this debate – no Indian organization sits in judgement and pontificates about the apartheid in America. Indians are too busy working their economy and doing whatever they can in their own muddled fashion to improve the lot of everyone including dalits. Until HRW looks at its own backyard and finds the guts to bark at its whitey masters, it’ll never have any credibility.
Gujubhai and thin-skinned. Two (one hyphenated) words that just seem to go together. Fine. Let me take you at your thin-skinned nationalistic crust and expandit: America is horrible, terrible, racist, and all things bad, it has never produced anything good or worthwhile or useful, it’s people are smelly, dangerous and ignorant. Feel better about yourself?
*For the humor impaired, I am skewering a certain type of Indian who seems unable to take any criticism about his country. There are Americans like that too. And, while the US has many problems, I believe it is a great nation and am happy to be here.
Across the Atlantic, they could find the roma gypsies treated in a despicable fashion all across Europe. The so-called civilized Europe does not even gurantee legal equality or protection of the fundamental rights of these poor people. Although these HR abuses are much much worse, HRW speaks nothing of it
Your foolishness is only surpassed by your ignorance.
Bulgaria
Hungary
Romania
Czech Republic
Go to HRW, type in Gypsies or Roma and see for yourself.
Samjay,  What are you talking about buddy? Are you denying that America is built on the graves of Red Indians? The American solution was simple: extermination, and I’m sad to say that many desis born here have internalized America’s negation of its history. I’m not saying India does not have immense difficulties. But please, America and its organizations have no business preaching. American’s celebrate Columbus Day with vigor (only partially undermined in recent times by the American left) as the discoverer of the “New World” Do you know how he treated Indians? Do you know about Andrew Jackson and the Cherokees? The land grabs? The torture? The murder?
 Here’s a little on Columbus:
Now, from his base on Haiti, Columbus sent expedition after expedition into the interior. They found no gold fields, but had to fill up the ships returning to Spain with some kind of dividend. In the year 1495, they went on a great slave raid, rounded up fifteen hundred Arawak men, women, and children, put them in pens guarded by Spaniards and dogs, then picked the five hundred best specimens to load onto ships. Of those five hundred, two hundred died en route. The rest arrived alive in Spain and were put up for sale by the archdeacon of the town, who reported that, although the slaves were “naked as the day they were born,” they showed “no more embarrassment than animals.” Columbus later wrote: “Let us in the name of the Holy Trinity go on sending all the slaves that can be sold.”
Well, here you have it folks. Think the new hegemon of India and China is going to make the world so much a better place than the US hegemon, eh? I give you Hara Hara and Gujjubhai: weep, cry or laugh. It’s your choice.
You know, it’s not preaching to be concerned about human rights across nationalities. Let me make this simple for the simpletons: yes, the US history of slavery and it’s treatment of native americans was shameful. Name a country that doesn’t have some kind of past like this? I mean, what happened in Gujurat only a few years ago? How many people died? Democracies are messy, difficult and imperfect. Get over yourselves, hara hara and gujjubhai. Great nations and great people can admit their mistakes. It’s only the insecure that respond to constructive criticism by replying: but, you do it too!
I did not see a single line of “constructive criticism” from subha. Please let me know what we missed.
It’s sad to see that this discussion collapsed so spectacularly. For what it’s worth, Human Rights Watch has a whole section on The United States featured prominently on its website, which contradicts the idea that they’re oblivious to Western flaws. Most of the recent reports obviously revolve around the War on Terror, but they’ve also published reports on racism and discrimination here.
But hey, if America has problems, India must not, right?
HRW is not a propaganda arm of the US government. Both Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch are loathed by the Right wingers as Anti-American. Both these organizations are hyper critical of the US and have sometimes even got carried away in their critique ( case in point: Amnesty prez comparing Gitmo to Gulags)
HRW also does regular studies on the treatment of Native Americans (focusing not just on the US, but also on tribal governments), on the treatment of non-citizens in the United States, etc., on the use of the death penalty, on unfairness in sentencing (particularly with respect to drug crimes), etc.
The way I see it is that it’s impossible to be in total denial about the plight of the poor in India. But it’s also impossible not to see what the urban poor in the US experience. Each problem is entitled to be discussed on its own merits, and not only relative to each other.
Well, here you have it folks. Think the new hegemon of India and China is going to make the world so much a better place than the US hegemon, eh? I give you Hara Hara and Gujjubhai: weep, cry or laugh. It’s your choice.
You know, it’s not preaching to be concerned about human rights across nationalities. Let me make this simple for the simpletons: yes, the US history of slavery and it’s treatment of native americans was shameful. Name a country that doesn’t have some kind of past like this? I mean, what happened in Gujurat only a few years ago? How many people died? Democracies are messy, difficult and imperfect. Get over yourselves, hara hara and gujjubhai. Great nations and great people can admit their mistakes. It’s only the insecure that respond to constructive criticism by replying: but, you do it too!
Very well put.
strawman, mytake. Read the whole thread. I’m addressing the zeitgeist of it, you know? It was supposed to be about the Dalit situation in India, and instead of an interesting treatment of Dalits in India, it has become a ,”which country treats it’s poor worse,” shout-fest. I don’t particularly care which country is better or worse: I know the one I live in and I would like it to improve in many areas. That doesn’t mean I don’t have a natural concern for the human rights of others across nationalities. I happen to admire India, okay? I just realize that no place is perfect.
Oops!
I did not cite correctly.
I meant ‘very well put’ to MDs comment.
Ponniyin wrote: While at the “Dalit” topic, don’t you folks think “Ahmadiyas” in Pakistan are the neo-Dalit Muslims?.
This is comedey gold, Ponniyin. How about “While on the topic of shoelaces, isn’t the Pakistani government awful?”, “Speaking of global warming, isn’t Musharraf a brutal dictator?”
You could put together a whole routine and post it on Youtube — Cranky Pakistan-obsessed hyper nationalist. Among desis at least, it could be bigger than Borat!
But more on topic, being Muslim in Pakistan doesn’t necessarily elimiante the problem of Caste. Mukhtaran Mai was raped partly because she belonged to a low status ‘tribe’, aka caste. ‘Tribal’ disrcimination between different Punjabi groups (Gujjar, whatever) still occurs. And in Sindh, even Benazir Bhutto used to speak with pride of her Wadhera origins. And more famously, Desi Muslims have developed thier own pseudo-castes (Syed, Sheihk, Ajlaf, Ashraf, etc). Caste-ism is a pan-South Asia problem.
MD,
America hypocrtically ignores all of its immoral conduct when eliminating it poses obstacles to maintaining its “lifestyle.” Look at its position on global warming. Al Gore rightly called it a MORAL issue. But the specter of tens of millions of dead in the Third World, including your own ancestors, due to flooding and planetary heating means nothing at all to it, after all the American people are entitled to air conditioning. The coming global catastrophe will be the last smack in the face from the “enlightened” United States.
Right!
And there are reasons why individuals would want to engage specific problems at specific times. I’m concerned about racism in the US because it’s my country and it makes me ashamed to see us continue to struggle with this. But I’m concerned about caste because Hinduism, despite my awkward relationship to it, is my faith. I hate to see it dragged down by an unfair practice that even most political Hindus now loathe.
Hara Hara: okay, let’s say I agree with that comment for the sake of discussion. What on earth has that to do with the treatment of Dalits in India?
This is comedey gold, Ponniyin. How about “While on the topic of shoelaces, isn’t the Pakistani government awful?”, “Speaking of global warming, isn’t Musharraf a brutal dictator?”
What about Pakistanis killing 27 million Hindus in the 71 war in Bangladesh?
In comment #32 I link to two sites which claim that dalits are descendents of Africans and therefore the dalit cause is a black cause.
Is there anybody here who has any insight into this?
Anybody who is living in India now who can say whether or not therei is some validity to this claim?
They are basing their claim on articles written at http://www.dalitistan.org which, to my vision, appears to be a communist leaning site that seeks to divide Indians rather than unite them.
There are even references there to a Mughalistan concept!
I applaud the HRW report. They may be missing some details about the context and history of SC/ST issues – such as for example the indian enactment of affirmative action policies in 1948 – fully 20 years before the great, advanced and superior western nations took any such steps – but overall it reads like a well researched, if grim report.
Interactors like “subha” who push ugly triumphalist readings of societies (USA #1!) are part of the challenge here. This type of individual doesnt understand that most indians have been poor till very recently – i have stood in daily bread lines for months and even today have relatives who live in urban slums – and that overall there has been some real progress since 1947. No question some groups have been more excluded than others – dalits especially but also tribal peoples and castes that were traditionally “hunter/gatherers”.
Carib Queen:
In comment #32 I link to two sites which claim that dalits are descendents of Africans and therefore the dalit cause is a black cause.
It’s absolutely false. There are some black activists, eg. Runoko Rashidi, who have claimed as much, as have Afro-Centrists, but the genetic evidence demonstrates that Dalits are as South Asian as any other South Asian.
Al Gore is an American politician, hara hara. A majority of American voters wanted him to be President over Bush. The fact that the American government is stupid does not mean the American people are (particularly true with our Court-appointed current President than usual).
This is a really bad argument as it relates to caste, too, since the Indian government is actually trying to take proactive steps to end the problem, but the people are resisting it. Does that suggest something inherently terrible about Indian people?
Or maybe that all of these are difficult social problems and we’re not going to get anywhere comparing wounds…
Al Beruni: I completely agree with your comment. Your personal experiences are a very interesting addition to this discussion. I will add that the triumphalism seems to be running in both directions around here (USA #1, India #1, etc, etc)
Yet another reason to promote family planning in villages to change backward mores of men and in-laws, and free women from their lot in life and give them more individual power.
Hema, I think you might be conflating what I said with what others have said. I did not say anything about dalits vs African Americans, and in fact I don’t like the “so’s your old man” -type comparison at all. I just said that it’s sad that people on this board, who would presumably never deny that racism existed in the US, will quickly argue all sorts of absurdities to defend the motherland against any charges.
SP:
No, I just referenced you because I cut-paste something out of your post to make a point. Not targeting you or anything! 🙂